Author Topic: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please  (Read 15153 times)

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Offline hyperlinked

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A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
« on: Sat, 13 March 2010, 02:56:50 »
Ever since the iPad announcement, the knives have been out on every forum online that doesn't have a pro-Apple slant to it. Look, I get it. A lot of people are annoyed at the spin factory that is part of the Apple operation and a lot of people even dislike their products for substantial technical reasons. This is all fine. You have every right to your opinion and I completely agree that a lot of Apple stuff is more hype than substance and some of it is even all hype and no substance.

I own a number of Apple products and while I'm no fanboy, it's just tiresome to see every other thread digress into Apple bashing when it's not even relevant. The more it happens, the more it'll attract people who want to flame anything Apple and probably some people who worship the Steve and see it as their religous duty to defend the Apple crest to this site. GeekHack will become just like every other tech discussion site that lost its desire to actually have real discussions. It'll be a bunch of people screaming at each other with the ones who are the most extreme in their positions gaining the most attention. It's poisonous for bashing of any sort to become the way people bond on a site so please give it a rest.

There are plenty of sites that are all about hating Apple, hating Microsoft, hating Linux, hating PCs, hating the Steve, hating the Bill... If this kind of thing makes your **** bigger, go there and you'll have an 80 foot Johnson in a week. Please don't turn this site into another one of those sites.

An in very un-GeekHack like fasion, I'll end by saying "Thank you."
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Offline ch_123

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A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 13 March 2010, 05:47:04 »
The same people around here who have over-exaggerated 'sheep' opinions about Apple tend to be the same people who have over-exaggerated 'sheep' opinions about everything else, and should be dismissed on their own (de)merits.

Offline InSanCen

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A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 13 March 2010, 06:13:16 »
I don't bash apple. I won't however, but into their closed, overpriced system. If you choose to, that's fine, it's your money, and your life.

It's simply a company offering a product (And in this case, a percieved lifestyle). Buy, or do not Buy.

I don't think I will ever get fanboi's.
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Offline itlnstln

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A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 13 March 2010, 08:39:17 »
I don't bash companies (they all suck), I bash products.


Offline didjamatic

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A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 13 March 2010, 08:50:04 »
I think some of the backlash is from people that are sick of hearing Mac users talk about their how magnificent they are for being a Mac user.  There's a real arrogance that has permeated the Mac culture for a long time and when you aren't "in the club" those who are in the club can sometimes come across as being pretentious dbags.

I'm glad Mac is alive and well, it makes Windows and Linux developers work harder.

iSteve touts being "in control" of your Mac and having things "the way you want" but that is really an illusion, you have less control and options with Mac devices than with a Linux or Windows system in most cases, yet clever marketing and sleight of hand has convinced Mac owners otherwise.

With that said, I'd love a Macbook Pro, just not for the price.  I love my iphone, but not how proprietary it is.

I'm not being a "hater" or a "fanboy" but stating what I have observed.  I think Mac has become successful enough that they are now getting a dose of criticism that comes with great success.
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Offline Specter_57

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Mac bashing...
« Reply #5 on: Sat, 13 March 2010, 09:50:53 »
..

My opinion of Macs has come to the point it is today due to years of "hands-on" experience with these machines, and in my case...primarily hardware...and that's before we even touch on the operating system itself...and of course...let us not forget the previlant intellectual snobbery of some Mac users....and I see that there are others who feel much as I do toward the systems...more or less extreme, perhaps...but I know I am not alone.

Those commercials..."I'm a Mac...I'm a PC.." .....they make me laugh out loud...the breath-taking arrogance and snobbery of them...is astounding.

...and for those PC-bashers among us, for those here who cannot stand the idea of a differing opinion or a contrary idea....maybe you should take a look at this page...

http://www.compaqsucks.com/

just so you know that sometimes PCs can suck too.

 Having had the misfortune to also have worked on several Compaqs over the years...I long ago came to the conclusion that Compaq is attempting to be the Mac/Apple of the PC world.  I guess those at that link I mention here maybe think so too

.........
Spec57
« Last Edit: Sat, 13 March 2010, 19:01:11 by Specter_57 »

Offline nanu

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A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
« Reply #6 on: Sat, 13 March 2010, 10:35:37 »
Name a website (wherein you're an aging participant) that allows open registrations, does not much censoring, has gained immense-enough popularity and still retains the [strike]limited[/strike]original community values that veterans want upheld. It never happens. The subject scope of these forums is limited enough that complaints about complaints here is a non-issue, and we haven't accumulated enough users to have significant [strike]amounts of differing opinions[/strike]immaturity.

Offline kode

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A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 13 March 2010, 13:20:10 »
Yeah, IBM is pretty much pure services now. The hardware they're handling is more or less part of the deal. Same for SunOracle, really. HP wishes they were there (so expect them to acquire companies to facilitate this, for example SAP, this year).

Oh, as for what I think of Apple; They're a company that makes software and hardware that is not my cup of Koolaid, mainly due to lock-in, software non-freedom and design choices that I disagree with. I like my eMacs, though, but they could stand to be a lot less noisy (darn fan, should get fanmates for them). I prefer Woz over Jobs. Woz was/is a hacker, Jobs found a way to make money out of it. Both is needed, of course, but jobs is still a douche.
« Last Edit: Sat, 13 March 2010, 13:23:23 by kode »

Offline Specter_57

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another example....
« Reply #8 on: Sat, 13 March 2010, 14:48:23 »
..

Of Mac design...thinking and innovation...imagine *two* buttons...wow!!!

ebay:  http://cgi.ebay.ca/KENSINGTON-TURBO-MOUSE-TRACKBALL-FOR-MAC-64100_W0QQitemZ120539880158QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMice?hash=item1c10bc9ade

........
Spec57

Offline EverythingIBM

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A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
« Reply #9 on: Sat, 13 March 2010, 16:43:45 »
My experience with most apple products has been highly negative. Apple deliberately makes their stuff incompatible with mainstream products until they feel it's necessary to change (such as the recent switch from PowerPC to intel -- which causes even MORE comaptibility issues with older macs; rosetta does not work good AT ALL, it's horrible, causes apps to freeze, and even will delete your files).

Now, most typcial consumer computers are also bad. Dells I find are the worst, terrible capacitors.
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Offline ch_123

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A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
« Reply #10 on: Sat, 13 March 2010, 16:47:37 »
Just because they wanted to use a different processor architecture doesn't mean that they did it to be awkward... Intel processors are not the best out there, many companies ditch them to use more efficient solutions.

Unfortunately the POWER architecture is very energy intensive. They're very fast, but eat up electricity and generate too much heat. That's why they never made a G5 macbook. I think that problem, moreso than any other, prompted them to switch to Intel.

Offline kishy

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A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
« Reply #11 on: Sat, 13 March 2010, 17:02:14 »
Quote from: webwit;163622
You are confusing action and reaction. For example, consider this thread at slashdot. The person saying "If Apple were a person he would be a total douche, but of course we  again see some Apple fanboys coming to defend this douchebag.", is he or she a pro-active hater, or reacting to douchebag behavior of a company and calling it what it is?

Similarly, you can't just ask people to stop bashing Apple and making them look bad at the same time as the cause of all this. You have to ask people to stop preaching the false God first.


Don't think I've done this yet, but there's a first time for everything.

Quoted. For. Truth.
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Offline hyperlinked

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A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
« Reply #12 on: Sat, 13 March 2010, 19:53:29 »
Quote from: kishy;163786
Don't think I've done this yet, but there's a first time for everything.

Quoted. For. Truth.

Except that I think you used it wrong. QFT is for pointing out when someone is trying to revise what he had said before to win an argument or avoid embarassment rather than to say "this person is one truth telling mofo who tells it like it is!"

Anyway, regarding the original quote... there aren't any Apple fanboys on GH and that's part of my point so please don't take your frustrations out on someone on GH just because he admits to something as minor as liking his iPod touch. People here are critical about everything, but usually it's because of specific product characteristics.

On some things (that aren't limited to Apple related topics), there's often a personal edge that says "you must be an idiot if you..." Welly got his head beaten in because he liked IE the most and while he said some things to provoke people, the pile on did get excessive. I'm a Web developer and IE is a huge source of stress for me. I want it to die, but I'm not going to take it out on Welly.

Yeah, it's asking too much to ask people to be mature, but it never hurts to ask. It probably won't do much if anything at all, but hopefully it'll get a couple of people to think before a post once in a while and really that's what it boils down to. I'd be surprised if the *******s were really total *******s in person. A lot of them are just really impulsive when behind the buttons of a message forum. I'm just asking people to think a sec before posting something that might come across a lot more harsh than they probably intended and we all need to be reminded of that now and then.
« Last Edit: Sat, 13 March 2010, 20:05:48 by hyperlinked »
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Offline microsoft windows

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A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
« Reply #13 on: Sat, 13 March 2010, 20:32:15 »
Quote from: ch_123;163783
Just because they wanted to use a different processor architecture doesn't mean that they did it to be awkward... Intel processors are not the best out there, many companies ditch them to use more efficient solutions.

Unfortunately the POWER architecture is very energy intensive. They're very fast, but eat up electricity and generate too much heat. That's why they never made a G5 macbook. I think that problem, moreso than any other, prompted them to switch to Intel.


PowerPC processors were just a racket. They were pieces of out-of-date junk even when they were new. It was a good idea on Apple's part to switch to Intel architecture.

Now, of course, I bet you all know by my name that I prefer to use IBM-compatible machines. But that doesn't mean that you have to. Just because I had bad experience with Apple computers in a school system with a limited budget (Yes, bad idea there. There're still 10-year-old Imac's in use!), that doesn't mean that an Apple is better-suited for something else. It's not my money you're all spending, after all. Buy what you like. Isn't that the point of money?

The thing about these PC vs. Mac arguments is they're just silly. There will always be IBM people, and there will always be Mac people, and each party will sincerely believe that whatever product they support is amazing and the other party's product is garbage. I always get a good kick out of reading them.
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Offline kishy

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A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
« Reply #14 on: Sat, 13 March 2010, 20:35:09 »
I can't do anything right around here.
*sigh*
I tried webwit, and failed.

FWIW I always try to be civil with my perceived fanboyism or...anti-fanboyism, or inverse fanboyism.
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Offline williamjoseph

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A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
« Reply #15 on: Sun, 14 March 2010, 03:59:51 »
"i'm a mac...... i'm a PC...."    bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla.

Offline Rajagra

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A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
« Reply #16 on: Sun, 14 March 2010, 04:41:32 »
Quote from: ripster;163832
iLounge has posted their iPad buying guide

Here's mine:
  • Earn money.
  • Give it to Apple.
  • Go back to step 1.


Quote from: williamjoseph;163866
"i'm a mac...... i'm a PC...."    bla bla bla


Out of curiosity, do you guys have those Microsoft "I'm a PC" adverts on TV? They make no sense. I understand the "I'm a Mac vs I'm a PC" videos - they make sense, they are analogies comparing attributes of owners with their respective computers. But the the "I'm a PC" adverts make no such sense. They just wheel out users saying how great Windows is then tagging on the punchline "I'm a PC." It's retarded, dumbed down manipulative nonsense. Just the kind of non-literal crap you'd expect from Apple. Obviously MS is after a bigger slice of the gullible idiot market.

Offline ch_123

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A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
« Reply #17 on: Sun, 14 March 2010, 04:55:47 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;163814
PowerPC processors were just a racket. They were pieces of out-of-date junk even when they were new. It was a good idea on Apple's part to switch to Intel architecture.

Show me some facts, because I have seen plenty to suggest otherwise.

Quote
I had bad experience with Apple computers in a school system with a limited budget

Which pretty much automatically renders your opinion invalid.

If computers are not well supported and looked after, they will be ****. Take for example Windows 7. It runs great on my machine. My neighbor gets a new computer which is almost of the same spec, and it runs ****. Why does the same OS behave so differently on almost exactly the same machine? Because Dell installed their copy and I installed mine. And we all know how Dell piles on the ****e in their consumer software bundle.

Same story with Linux. In my college there's a pile of Debian machines which almost never work because the servers on which all the user files are set up on is set up in some retarded way (possibly in order to cater to the ancient XP machines), so there are days when it can't find the home directory and refuses to log on.

The point is, there's no such thing as an idiot proof OS. If it is not set up and maintained in a sufficient way, it will not work properly. The only way to reliably gauge how good an OS is is by running it yourself on your own machine with your own configuration.

Quote
The thing about these PC vs. Mac arguments is they're just silly.


This of course explains why you make silly arguments in them. Good boy.
« Last Edit: Sun, 14 March 2010, 04:59:03 by ch_123 »

Offline hyperlinked

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A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
« Reply #18 on: Sun, 14 March 2010, 05:09:55 »
Quote from: Rajagra;163868
They just wheel out users saying how great Windows is then tagging on the punchline "I'm a PC." It's retarded, dumbed down manipulative nonsense. Just the kind of non-literal crap you'd expect from Apple. Obviously MS is after a bigger slice of the gullible idiot market.


Those are still running? I thought they were all replaced by the "Windows 7 was my idea" ads, which seem to finally be a Windows ad that hits on the right note.

The only place where the Windows 7 was my Idea ad falls flat is in banner ads because there's no context and it looks like some megalomaniac is in a freeze frame claiming that he/she invented the Microsoft product.

The biggest problem with the I'm a PC ads is that it's a direct reference to the Mac ads and it's usually not a good idea to reference your competitor's advertising.
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Offline hyperlinked

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A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
« Reply #19 on: Sun, 14 March 2010, 05:14:21 »
BTW, in case anyone's reading my original post as "Please don't hurt the feelings of that Apple users," that's not what I meant.

I meant that lately there seems to be a tech website version of Godwin's law. The longer a discussion continues the greater the likelihood that someone will bring up Apple and the thread ends up being yet another slog about why Apple does or doesn't suck.

Besides, Apple users don't have feelings. Steve Jobs controls them remotely.
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Offline ch_123

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A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
« Reply #20 on: Sun, 14 March 2010, 05:19:07 »
It's a sort of reactionary thing - Mac ads insinuate that Windows users are gangly white dorks (which is stupid, because the stereotypical nerd type uses Linux or some other *nix which is quite similar to Mac OS X) So MS launches into a tirade to make Windows look cool - let's throw in a few sports players, black people (because everyone loves ads that have lots of black people), women, children, animals, single-cell amoeba etc.

Of course, it serves no purpose because people who use Windows are either a) average people who think that Windows is the computer or b) informed people who specifically need Windows. So Microsoft is trying to reaffirm an image that it's customers don't give a **** about either way in an order to trade blows in the pissing competition that Apple started.

The real danger for MS from Apple's ads is the fact that Apple regularly highlight failings with the Windows platform. Of course, MS can get up and talk about new features and whatever, but people tend to listen more to criticism of something rather than the product's manufacturer telling you that it's great. Really, the best thing for MS to do would be to just ignore it - what they are doing now makes them look somewhat desperate.
« Last Edit: Sun, 14 March 2010, 05:21:24 by ch_123 »

Offline kode

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A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
« Reply #21 on: Sun, 14 March 2010, 05:22:33 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;163814

PowerPC processors were just a racket. They were pieces of out-of-date junk even when they were new. It was a good idea on Apple's part to switch to Intel architecture.


I disagree. The G4 series, for example, outperformed x86 processors of their time, just as MIPS used to outperform x86 (and then SGI went over to Itanium, pretty much). Then for a while x86 actually got decent for a while, so Apple switched. Nowadays, I'd still probably choose a PPC over an x86. The first Xbox had an x86 chip in it, for the 360 they switched to a Power from IBM. The Wii and the PS3 also run PowerPC from IBM (so we can correctly deduce that IBM is the only winner in the console wars).

POWER7 is ridiculously awesome. In the age of multi-core and multi-thread, x86 is lagging behind, really. Intel does a maximum of two threads per core and have announced a 6 core CPU (iirc), AMD does 1 thread per core (because they don't believe in SMT) and have announced a 12 core chip; POWER7 does 4 threads per core, and atm up to 8 cores (32 threads); Suns UltraSparc T3 will feature 16 cores with 8 threads per core (512 threads).

But yes, at the moment of Apples switch, G5 had bad temperature problems. X86, silly as it sounds, ran cooler.

Quote from: microsoft windows;163814

Now, of course, I bet you all know by my name that I prefer to use IBM-compatible machines. But that doesn't mean that you have to. Just because I had bad experience with Apple computers in a school system with a limited budget (Yes, bad idea there. There're still 10-year-old Imac's in use!), that doesn't mean that an Apple is better-suited for something else. It's not my money you're all spending, after all. Buy what you like. Isn't that the point of money?


I think you mean intel compatible machines.

Offline ch_123

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A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
« Reply #22 on: Sun, 14 March 2010, 05:28:05 »
I think MW quantifies the merits of entire processor architectures on their ability to run Windows 2000...

Wasn't there a beta of W2K for the POWER architecture?

Quote
POWER7 is ridiculously awesome. In the age of multi-core and multi-thread, x86 is lagging behind, really. Intel does a maximum of two threads per core and have announced a 6 core CPU (iirc), AMD does 1 thread per core (because they don't believe in SMT) and have announced a 12 core chip; POWER7 does 4 threads per core, and atm up to 8 cores (32 threads); Suns UltraSparc T3 will feature 16 cores with 8 threads per core (512 threads).

It's a bloody shame that IBM doesn't make workstations any more, probably would cost tens of thousands though.

The thing about the T3 is that the cores are meant to be relatively primitive, but it compensates by having lots of them. They're not really a general purpose CPU, moreso something designed to handle lots of small treads at once.

Offline kode

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A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
« Reply #23 on: Sun, 14 March 2010, 06:05:30 »
Yes, indeed, neither of them are really designed for "desktop use". The T3 will probably handle SAP and other database heavy applications really well, though, for example.

I could argue for how the general purpose cpu is becoming obsolete and instead will leave room for multiple cores specialized in different things. I attended a talk with a Sun employee who actually talked about that (or rather, the "Great computing depression", which was in part based on The Landscape of Parallel Computing Research).

Offline hyperlinked

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A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
« Reply #24 on: Sun, 14 March 2010, 07:36:09 »
Quote from: ch_123;163875
The real danger for MS from Apple's ads is the fact that Apple regularly highlight failings with the Windows platform. Of course, MS can get up and talk about new features and whatever, but people tend to listen more to criticism of something rather than the product's manufacturer telling you that it's great. Really, the best thing for MS to do would be to just ignore it - what they are doing now makes them look somewhat desperate.


It's that strange paradox that by refuting a claim, you inadvertently also reinforce it in some people.

The other problem is that there have been a long string of Microsoft ads that have been complete fodder for ridicule like the Jerry Seinfeld series, the "Folger's" Vista series, and some of the "I'm a PC ads." When youre marketing department is on a losing streak, people are waiting and expect to pounce on your next offering.
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Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #25 on: Sun, 14 March 2010, 09:35:38 »
Quote from: ch_123;163871
Show me some facts, because I have seen plenty to suggest otherwise.



Which pretty much automatically renders your opinion invalid.

If computers are not well supported and looked after, they will be ****. Take for example Windows 7. It runs great on my machine. My neighbor gets a new computer which is almost of the same spec, and it runs ****. Why does the same OS behave so differently on almost exactly the same machine? Because Dell installed their copy and I installed mine. And we all know how Dell piles on the ****e in their consumer software bundle.

Same story with Linux. In my college there's a pile of Debian machines which almost never work because the servers on which all the user files are set up on is set up in some retarded way (possibly in order to cater to the ancient XP machines), so there are days when it can't find the home directory and refuses to log on.

The point is, there's no such thing as an idiot proof OS. If it is not set up and maintained in a sufficient way, it will not work properly. The only way to reliably gauge how good an OS is is by running it yourself on your own machine with your own configuration.

 

This of course explains why you make silly arguments in them. Good boy.


Buying Apple computers when you have a limited budget is a bad idea. They were so expesive that we had to make do with what we had. The other school I work at in the district uses IBM-compatible computers. Since they're much cheaper, they were able to much more easily update their fleet of computers than the school with the Mac's.

Now, about the PowerPC's. Anyone remember the Power Macintosh G3's? They cost an arm and a leg back in 1998 when they came out. And my Gateway2000 from early 1996 outpowers them.

How about those colorful iMac's from around 2000? The fastest of those ran at 600Mhz. Most ran at 300-400Mhz, less than half the speed of the PC's from that era (933Mhz Pentium III versus 400Mhz G3). Oh, and the G4 laptops? The run-of-the-mill models of those ran at about 800Mhz. That was 2003. My Dell laptop from 2003 runs at three times the speed (2.4Ghz) and can handle twice the RAM.

Apple's computer hardware was far behind PC's until just a few years ago when they came out with their redesigned iMac with a Core 2 Duo that was about the equivalent of the PC of that day. Ever since then, Apple's computer hardware has been much more up-to-date.
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #26 on: Sun, 14 March 2010, 09:38:55 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;163895
Now, about the PowerPC's. Anyone remember the Power Macintosh G3's? They cost an arm and a leg back in 1998 when they came out. And my Gateway2000 from early 1996 outpowers them.

Again, proof plx.

Quote
How about those colorful iMac's from around 2000? The fastest of those ran at 600Mhz. Most ran at 300-400Mhz, less than half the speed of the PC's from that era (933Mhz Pentium III versus 400Mhz G3). Oh, and the G4 laptops? The run-of-the-mill models of those ran at about 800Mhz. That was 2003.

Oh dear.

Let me put it this way, ever notice the way that there were Pentium 4s running at 3.8GHz? Notice that they were replaced by processors running between 2-2.8GHz? Do you think that the former are quicker than the latter?
« Last Edit: Sun, 14 March 2010, 09:58:50 by ch_123 »

Offline InSanCen

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« Reply #27 on: Sun, 14 March 2010, 10:21:12 »
Although I have him on ignore, I can see him being quoted, so here goes...

IPC (Instructions per Cycle)

It's something you may want to look up before making assumptions on what is faster. That is, assuming you are not an sucessful troll. Just learn there are some things that, although you do not agree or like, are true. The total throughput of the chip on a given application/type of instruction or data is what matters. Does it do it faster? yes? Then who gives a **** who makes it. After that, you consider cost, because, and this is the important bit, you have a baseline to make cost/performance comparisons.
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« Reply #28 on: Sun, 14 March 2010, 10:22:35 »
Ah come on, you're giving away the ending!

The problem with IPC is that it's effectively unquantifiable except through benchmarks with a wide variety of applications. The Itanium can theoretically do 6 instructions per clock cycle, but no one actually figured out how to make software that makes use of that ability, so it's around the same as an x86 chip.
« Last Edit: Sun, 14 March 2010, 10:24:59 by ch_123 »

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #29 on: Sun, 14 March 2010, 13:49:37 »
The other thing about Apple machines being expensive is that there are plenty of considered-legendary PC companies *coughsibmcoughs* who sold machines that were very expensive for what you got. In fact, unlike Apple, IBM's machines didn't really do anything that the competition couldn't do.

Offline EverythingIBM

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« Reply #30 on: Sun, 14 March 2010, 16:35:46 »
Quote from: kode;163877
I disagree. The G4 series, for example, outperformed x86 processors of their time, just as MIPS used to outperform x86 (and then SGI went over to Itanium, pretty much). Then for a while x86 actually got decent for a while, so Apple switched. Nowadays, I'd still probably choose a PPC over an x86. The first Xbox had an x86 chip in it, for the 360 they switched to a Power from IBM. The Wii and the PS3 also run PowerPC from IBM (so we can correctly deduce that IBM is the only winner in the console wars).

POWER7 is ridiculously awesome. In the age of multi-core and multi-thread, x86 is lagging behind, really. Intel does a maximum of two threads per core and have announced a 6 core CPU (iirc), AMD does 1 thread per core (because they don't believe in SMT) and have announced a 12 core chip; POWER7 does 4 threads per core, and atm up to 8 cores (32 threads); Suns UltraSparc T3 will feature 16 cores with 8 threads per core (512 threads).

But yes, at the moment of Apples switch, G5 had bad temperature problems. X86, silly as it sounds, ran cooler..


The XBOX 360 runs on a tri-core Power PC.
The Wii runs on its own cutomized "broadway" CPU to be compatible with gekko (not sure if it's power pc).
The Playstation 3 runs on a cell processor, which ISN'T a POWER chip, and was a joint project by IBM and sony (and it could have been some other companies too).

I think the XBOX 360 running on a TRI core power PC is just IBM trying to get back at microsoft. Seriously, TRI core? Reminds me when they removed the windows keys from thinkpads (I'm mad lenovo put them back).
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #31 on: Sun, 14 March 2010, 17:01:07 »
Cell is a POWER chip (specifically it's a superset of the POWER4 architecture), you can run Yellow Dog Linux on them for example. The Xbox 360 core you speak of is actually based on the Cell - they took out the master core of the Cell and made it an independent CPU.
« Last Edit: Sun, 14 March 2010, 17:06:39 by ch_123 »

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« Reply #32 on: Sun, 14 March 2010, 17:42:52 »
IMHO Apple made the best (non-Model M) mechanical keyboards of their era. The A9M0330,‎ M0116, M0115, and M3501 were just heavenly typing machines.

I don't think any other ALPS boards compare. Some were more useful (northgate) but none as aesthetically pleasing as the Apples. They sound like music, they're built to the highest standards of quality, and the key feel is superb.

I'm not a fan of the apple "community" though, buncha pretentious know-nothing know-it-alls, that's what they are!
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« Reply #33 on: Sun, 14 March 2010, 18:13:35 »
The AEKs were not that great IMHO, the Blue Alps keyboards were nicer to type on, and the SGI AT-101s had the same switches, but in my opinion look smarter and are also more readily compatible with modern computers (they came out of the same factory so they were of the same build quality)

Now, an SGI AT-101 with Blue Switches like I have is one heck of a board...

Offline kode

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« Reply #34 on: Sun, 14 March 2010, 18:45:32 »
Quote from: EverythingIBM;163997

The XBOX 360 runs on a tri-core Power PC.

Yes, I said it is a PPC

Quote from: EverythingIBM;163997

The Wii runs on its own cutomized "broadway" CPU to be compatible with gekko (not sure if it's power pc).

Yes, both Broadway and Gekko is PPC. Gekko is the same family generation as the Apple G3.

Quote from: EverythingIBM;163997

The Playstation 3 runs on a cell processor, which ISN'T a POWER chip, and was a joint project by IBM and sony (and it could have been some other companies too).


Cell is to a very large degree a PPC architecture, with some additions.

Quote from: EverythingIBM;163997

I think the XBOX 360 running on a TRI core power PC is just IBM trying to get back at microsoft. Seriously, TRI core? Reminds me when they removed the windows keys from thinkpads (I'm mad lenovo put them back).


I doubt this theory, really. Microsoft wanted it that way. Probably they saw three cores (with two threads each) as a good tradeoff between cost and performance.

Offline InSanCen

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« Reply #35 on: Sun, 14 March 2010, 18:56:45 »
Quote from: ch_123;163903
Ah come on, you're giving away the ending!

The problem with IPC is that it's effectively unquantifiable except through benchmarks with a wide variety of applications. The Itanium can theoretically do 6 instructions per clock cycle, but no one actually figured out how to make software that makes use of that ability, so it's around the same as an x86 chip.


True. The other problem arises that when comparing apples to oranges, it's one of the few effective ways to get semi-meaningful datapoints. It's the lesser of two evils, the other being unable to do a comparison at all.

I never liked the middle of a story though. Especially ones about trolls... ;-P
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Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #36 on: Sun, 14 March 2010, 20:37:34 »
Quote from: ch_123;163897
Again, proof plx.



Oh dear.

Let me put it this way, ever notice the way that there were Pentium 4s running at 3.8GHz? Notice that they were replaced by processors running between 2-2.8GHz? Do you think that the former are quicker than the latter?


Their replacement processors had multiple cores and superior architecture.

I used Macs for years. I serviced them for years! And I hate the old Mac's for a good reason. Trust me: The G3's and G4's are slow. Even by my standards.

Pentium III processors had some of the best architecture available to the general market at the time period (1999-2002-ish). Apple's iMac's 10 years ago were basically the equivalent of someone selling a single core computer new today and asking $800 for it. Their computers were just lousy. However, today, that isn't the case (Apple's caught up and some of their current models surpass today's standards. But they're all still a little pricey).

In 2001, the school district purchased a whole new fleet of 450Mhz blueberry iMac's for the elementary school. At the high school, where the computer systems ran Windows, they updated the fleet the year before to 933Mhz Micron Clientpro computers. Both the Macs and the Microns had 128MB of PC133 RAM and 10gb hard disks.

You all think Windows 2000 was bad taking 5 minutes to start up? Well, on those iMac's Mac OS 10 took even longer. And their original OS, 9.2, didn't have a screen saver at the log-in screen so it burned right into the screens since not all the staffers turned off their computers routinely.

Trust me. Old PC's are much better than the old Mac's.
« Last Edit: Sun, 14 March 2010, 20:44:29 by microsoft windows »
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Offline kishy

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« Reply #37 on: Sun, 14 March 2010, 21:16:01 »
Guys, MW is right here.

Real world actual performance is what he's speaking about, and he's freakin correct, no way to counter it (throw us all the numbers you like, they can't change the reality of how the systems run). It's either the hardware or the software...take your pick. Crappy architecture or crappy software not capable of even BEGINNING to use the hardware properly. I lean towards crappy software because that's the part Apple can easiest cripple...the architecture had good theory behind it.

G3s and G4s (yeah, I've used em both) in general just run like molasses...G3s being quite similar, in fact, to late 68k Macs.
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Offline hyperlinked

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« Reply #38 on: Sun, 14 March 2010, 22:20:02 »
Quote from: kishy;164068
Guys, MW is right here....

G3s and G4s (yeah, I've used em both) in general just run like molasses...G3s being quite similar, in fact, to late 68k Macs.


I think everyone may be right here. I'm not that knowledgeable when it comes to the fine details of hardware and I'm pulling this out of memory from almost a decade ago so for what it's worth, I seem to remember stuff running on G3's and G4's on OS 9.x to be rather snappy. It was never as snappy as the laboratory tests that Apple liked to tout when they said that their computers had "Pentium toasting performance," but in apps like Photoshop, I seem to remember the real world performance was at least on par and perhaps slightly better... for a period. It all depends on which frozen moment in time you pick.

You have to remember that at this time some vendors still released packages for the Mac first and the PC second. Adobe and Apple still had a preferred relationship at that time and the Art and Design world were only beginning to hop off the sinking Apple ship so some stuff was still written to favor Macs.

Not very long after that, Apple announced that they were going to start over with a whole new OS. Stuff continued to be developed for Mac Classic, but programming expertise that was still working on Macs started shifting to the OS X environment. You could get stuff that ran in Classic for a few more years, but it wasn't the same.

If there are still G3 and G4 iMacs in use, they've probably since adopted a lot of the dirtier codebase in software releases after Mac Classic got end of life'd.

I was seriously considering switching to Windows around the time of Mac OS 9. It wasn't because of performance issues. It performed just fine and pretty fast on most apps. Software choices were starting to dwindle and toward the later phases of OS 9.x, the system just crashed too much.
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #39 on: Mon, 15 March 2010, 03:55:55 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;164063
Their replacement processors had multiple cores and superior architecture.

There were dual core G5s released around the same time that Intel and AMD released their offerings. Scratch up another point for Team Clueless!

Quote
I used Macs for years. I serviced them for years! And I hate the old Mac's for a good reason. Trust me: The G3's and G4's are slow. Even by my standards.

Pentium III processors had some of the best architecture available to the general market at the time period (1999-2002-ish). Apple's iMac's 10 years ago were basically the equivalent of someone selling a single core computer new today and asking $800 for it. Their computers were just lousy. However, today, that isn't the case (Apple's caught up and some of their current models surpass today's standards. But they're all still a little pricey).

Again, more assertions.

Quote
In 2001, the school district purchased a whole new fleet of 450Mhz blueberry iMac's for the elementary school. At the high school, where the computer systems ran Windows, they updated the fleet the year before to 933Mhz Micron Clientpro computers. Both the Macs and the Microns had 128MB of PC133 RAM and 10gb hard disks.

You all think Windows 2000 was bad taking 5 minutes to start up? Well, on those iMac's Mac OS 10 took even longer. And their original OS, 9.2, didn't have a screen saver at the log-in screen so it burned right into the screens since not all the staffers turned off their computers routinely.

Right, because I fired up an iMac G3 the other day with OS X 10.4.7 (which would have been a much later version than the one that shipped with the iMac, and therefore more memory intensive) and it was up within a minute or two.

Now, this was with 256MB of RAM, but 256MB is the minimum requirement for 10.4, much in the same way that 128MB is the minimum for the 10 and 10.1, so I think it balances itself out there. I think it demonstrates quite admirably that those machines are not inherently slow if it was in fact a problem with the earlier versions of OS X (which apparently were terrible, but hey, you could have had Windows computers with Vista on them).

Quote from: kishy;164068
Guys, MW is right here.

Real world actual performance is what he's speaking about, and he's freakin correct, no way to counter it

Nonsense, real world performance regularly lies. See my post a page or so back about Windows 7 on two almost identical machines... there's too many variables in the performance equation to dumb it down to an intrinsic problem with either the hardware or the OS.

Oh yeah, and everyone knows that Mac OS 9 sucks. Get over it. As if Microsoft never released multiple disastrous versions of Windows.

Again, I've never owned an Apple computer. I'm not as much pro-Mac as I am anti-idiot.
« Last Edit: Mon, 15 March 2010, 05:33:41 by ch_123 »

Offline kishy

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« Reply #40 on: Mon, 15 March 2010, 10:02:29 »
Quote from: ch_123;164131
Nonsense, real world performance regularly lies. See my post a page or so back about Windows 7 on two almost identical machines... there's too many variables in the performance equation to dumb it down to an intrinsic problem with either the hardware or the OS.

Oh yeah, and everyone knows that Mac OS 9 sucks. Get over it. As if Microsoft never released multiple disastrous versions of Windows.

Again, I've never owned an Apple computer. I'm not as much pro-Mac as I am anti-idiot.

Real world performance is the only performance that matters.

Numbers are great for bragging rights.

"My new G900 chip can do three hundred thousand instructions per cycle...and get this, there are three hundred thousand cycles per second!"

Doesn't matter much if it's running like Vista on a 2.2 P4 with 1GB RAM.

The thing with Apple that's so unique and helpful here is how every damned machine of a particular type performs the damned same. 256MB, 512MB, 1GB...no difference for just the OS. Almost certainly you'd see a difference in the behaviour of application software but for the OS and just getting the machine up and going (unlike a "Wintel" system, where the entire system's performance in everything can be on a sliding scale based on RAM...I call this a benefit and good feature in the design of MacOS, that it can run so consistently)...basic tasks like internet browsing, that sort of thing, the G3s (with a version of 9) and G4s (with a version of X) run "equally slower than they should" (that is, the same proportionate amount of fail, not the same apparent speed). 2.2 P4/1GB running Vista comes to mind again.
« Last Edit: Mon, 15 March 2010, 10:05:19 by kishy »
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #41 on: Mon, 15 March 2010, 10:50:20 »
Right... but the one I tried ran fine, and I tend to have quite picky standards of 'fine'

My point is that MW unilateraly declared an entire processor architecture and operating system to be bad on the basis of some badly configured machines and a half-baked understanding of what makes a good processor. If I use a slow machine with an Intel processor, can I say that all x86 machines are a 'racket'? No. If I use a slow or unstable Linux system, can I declare all Linux systems to be useless? No. Just because it's a Mac doesn't mean that your arguments don't have to make sense.

Quote
Numbers are great for bragging rights.

"My new G900 chip can do three hundred thousand instructions per cycle...and get this, there are three hundred thousand cycles per second!"

Isn't that what MW was doing, and myself, Insancen and others were saying was stupid?

Quote
unlike a "Wintel" system, where the entire system's performance in everything can be on a sliding scale based on RAM...

Depends on how much RAM you're talking about. To me, Windows 7 performs roughly similar with 1, 2 or 4GB. Of course, this depends on what apps you run and how you run them. For basic net browsing or the like, it doesn't make too much difference.
« Last Edit: Mon, 15 March 2010, 12:50:13 by ch_123 »

Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #42 on: Mon, 15 March 2010, 14:38:18 »
Quote from: ch_123;164131
There were dual core G5s released around the same time that Intel and AMD released their offerings. Scratch up another point for Team Clueless!


And I wonder why Apple never used them in laptops...
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #43 on: Mon, 15 March 2010, 15:05:01 »
As I said above, they were fast chips, but were not good with heat and power consumption.

But hey, around the same time, IBM used to use Pentium 3s in Thinkpads in deference to mobile Pentium 4s for exactly the same reason. Also, there weren't any dual core laptop CPUs from Intel for about 2-3 years after they came out with their desktop ones.

At the end of the day, what happened was that IBM turned away from producing consumer machines in favor of making more and more mainframe stuff. In that end of the market, cooling and energy consumption aren't a huge concern compared with the need for performance. It wasn't profitable for them any more to spend billions making desktop chips when only Apple bought them. That doesn't make POWER a bad architecture, and the new POWER7 is particular is one hell of a CPU.

Offline InSanCen

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« Reply #44 on: Mon, 15 March 2010, 15:17:25 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;164193
And I wonder why Apple never used them in laptops...


Because they were never intended for them? Have you ever seen a G5 module? Let alone the heatsink they put on it to cool it?
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« Reply #45 on: Mon, 15 March 2010, 15:26:55 »
Ok, well here is my opinion on Macs:

Mac OS X runs better on PC hardware than on Mac hardware.  That I don't quite understand.  And also, if Apple is so much better than PCs and Microsoft Windows, how come Bill Gates is so much richer?  I think that speaks for the success of PCs right there.
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Offline kishy

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« Reply #46 on: Mon, 15 March 2010, 15:57:55 »
Oh boy. I don't wanna see where this goes now.
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #47 on: Mon, 15 March 2010, 16:04:40 »
Quote from: Computer-Lab in Basement;164211
Ok, well here is my opinion on Macs:

Mac OS X runs better on PC hardware than on Mac hardware.  That I don't quite understand.  And also, if Apple is so much better than PCs and Microsoft Windows, how come Bill Gates is so much richer?  I think that speaks for the success of PCs right there.



Offline kishy

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A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
« Reply #48 on: Mon, 15 March 2010, 16:10:07 »


Not entirely appropriate for the situation, but whatever.
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Offline microsoft windows

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A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
« Reply #49 on: Mon, 15 March 2010, 16:34:00 »
Quote from: InSanCen;164207
Because they were never intended for them? Have you ever seen a G5 module? Let alone the heatsink they put on it to cool it?


The Intel processors had superior architecture and were much more efficient, consuming far less power and outputting much less heat. That's a reason why Apple switched. The people at Apple aren't that stupid.

When compared to the Intel processors available at the same time periods, many of the PowerPC cores were simply pieces of garbage. 450Mhz G3 versus 1Ghz Pentium III. 866Mhz G4 versus 2.2Ghz Pentium 4. 1Ghz G4 versus  2.8Ghz Pentium 4. Get the message?

I think there was some change in management when Apple  made the Intel switch since at about the same time, they also gave up on those retarded one-button mice (They have no reason to exist; there's nothing bad about having two buttons or a scrolling wheel)
« Last Edit: Mon, 15 March 2010, 16:37:32 by microsoft windows »
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