Where to move from Das Keyboard?

[porgo]

Dear community,

I have used a Das Keyboard model 2 for a year or so. I've greatly enjoyed my time with Das, and compared to a flat and puny Logitech it does wonders to my fingers.

My history with keyboards: a couple of years with an ICL board, mechanical but very, very stiff and it makes my fingers hurt. A great gaming board anyhow. When I switched to Linux I bought a new Logitech because (ironically) the Windows key only comes handy outside a Windows environment. Some multimedia buttons didn't hurt either, I bound some fancy program starters to them.

In the meanwhile I found out about Das Keyboard and I tried the Mk1 for a week. It felt very nice! Very much like a perfect board, if you will. The con was that it was a US 104-key design, it doesn't fit in scandinavian write style. I desperately wanted a Mk1 but I had to buy a Mk2 (105-key). I wasn't able to compare the keyboards side by side, but I felt the Mk1 was slightly nicer to type. I wouldn't consider the Mk3 or III because it looks quite stupid.

So I settled for a Mk2 and I was very happy until recently when I discovered this site (curiously enough I found out yesterday or so that I had a year-old unused account here!) and found out there are other modern mechanical boards. I became interested in the Topre technology.

When I browse these forums and Elitekeyboards & co, I feel very limited of choice because of some accent keys we have here in the North. This is more like a software layout question but is it worth getting a 104-key board and bind my much used Ä and Ö keys somewhere easily available, or perhaps introduce a quick way to toggle between US/EU layouts? Maybe I should separate this question/wondering to another  thread.

A couple of questions I haven't got answers by searching and looting this treasure chest of a forum:

1) What switches does a Das Keyboard Mk2 use? Some clues are found in the bottom: "MX 3000"

2) I like Das's light touch but it could be a bit lighter. 35 grams for all alphabetic would be something I'd like. What light boards there exists?

Moreover, what would you suggest? Noise is no problem, although I wish my Das was a bit more quiet.  So basically this is yet another "what keyboard for me?"

[kw71]

Hiya

You might want to find a board with Cherry brown switches.  They are pretty light. (~45g?) But maybe your das keyboard had browns.

Cherry switches are called MX.  If the ones in your das keyboard were not clicky, they might have been browns.  They have a slight bump that you can feel as you press the key down.

The keyboards that Cherry make in their CZ factory are quite reasonable in cost.  You might be able to find one in your preferred layout without spending €500.  These are a much better value than the botique keyboards.

In this thread, a member talks about getting a blue switch Cherry in DE layout from amazon.de.  Blue switches are heavier and have a click.

[ch_123]

There's a retailer in Finland that sells a Finnish layout Topre 105.

Das 2 uses Blue Cherrys, the Das 1 used rubber domes... Keytronic made ones though so much higher quality than the Logitech. If you prefered the Das 1 over the Das 2, then the Topres are definitely for you.

But maybe your das keyboard had browns.

Nope, only the latest Das revision gives the choice of brown switches. The 2 and 3 were blue only.

[porgo]

Thank you all for a quick help out here

Das 2 uses Blue Cherrys, the Das 1 used rubber domes... Keytronic made ones though so much higher quality than the Logitech. If you prefered the Das 1 over the Das 2, then the Topres are definitely for you.

Wow, you got me interested. And I'm surprised to read about Das 1's technics. My memories are indeed foggy but it was very light and truly wonderful experience.

A €180 Topre Realforce: not bad, but I was in a sense looking for someone to talk me into the US layout because I do coding in various languages. I wish I could try that out before buying...

[ch_123]

The Topre is often described as feeling like a very very good rubber dome keyboard, which is somewhat true, and somewhat misleading. You get that soft feel without the mush or friction, and they don't wear out like most rubber dome keyboards do. You also don't have to bottom out the key in order to actuate it.

Also note that the Realforce keyboards have different key weightings according to position... The Keytronic on which the Das 1 had a similar arrangement, albeit there was a wider range of weightings, and affecting more keys.

There's a few people around here who have one of the modern Keytronic models and reviews are always quite positive, but any of them who've tried both it and the Topre will say that the Topre is much better. But because the Topre is quite similar to a high end rubber dome keyboard, I'd go as far as saying that if you liked the Keytronic, you probably wouldn't have reason to not like the Topre.

You will read some people around here who tried the Topre first after coming off the likes of the Buckling Spring or Alps and said that the Topre isn't tactile enough. This however is an issue of adjustment. I personally think that the Topre's tactile action is second only to the buckling spring, and is far more pleasant than either Cherry or Alps switches. They also make a pleasant 'thocking' noise which gives decent sound feedback without being annoying like the Blue Cherries can be.

[porgo]

I've been lately feeling that my Das is getting stiffer, but after some testing I found out the lesser used keys are also that stiff. I like some serious lightness!

The usual switches seem to scatter between 45 g to 55 g, are there any lighter boards, and are they comparable to Topre switches?

I saw a 105-key Realforce, two months old and only 130 € or so. I was very close to make a deal, but the white color with black letters just doesn't cut it when I'm used to the leet blanks. The black boards with gray lettering look nice enough.

[ch_123]

You wouldn't want anything lighter than a 45g Topre unless you have some serious RSI problems.

The issue here is not as much the key's force as much as it's how the force is distributed throughout the travel of the key. There may only be a nominal 5g difference, but it feels like it's a lot more when you compare a Topre and blue Cherry side by side.

[porgo]

You wouldn't want anything lighter than a 45g Topre unless you have some serious RSI problems.

The issue here is not as much the key's force as much as it's how the force is distributed throughout the travel of the key. There may only be a nominal 5g difference, but it feels like it's a lot more when you compare a Topre and blue Cherry side by side.

I see. Sometimes it just doesn't feel light enough. I may consider the Topre after I've been testing one out. Too bad that in order to do taht I should head to a larger town...

Back when I had the very stiff ICL (rubber dome very probably) I would sometimes type in a way I let fingers fall freely to the keys which is a very light way to type but it takes a certain level of relaxation.

[ch_123]

It might have been a Cherry Black keyboard...

Sometimes if I leave my hand on a Topre after typing on a stiffer keyboard for a while, I will accidentally depress keys. That's on an all-45g model too.

[DreymaR]

The ISO (105-key) board layout isn't an absolute necessity but in my opinion a great advantage. Not because you can't get the Scandinavian characters without it (I use the bracket keys for 'ć' and 'ĺ' for instance) but because you can do some great ergonomic mods on an ISO board! Of course, that extra key helps too (I put the 'ř' there).

   

(Never mind the Colemak layout on that image - you don't have to do that one unless you want to. I'd want to of course...)

In fact, if you don't shift the chars on an ISO board, the distances to the Enter and left Shift key may be annoying. I never was annoyed at them myself, but the US customers have been known to wail.

[porgo]

Yes... I'm not a great fan of layout altering although I'm pretty sure I would benefit greatly from a custom layout.
104-key US layout is ideal for codework, LaTeX etc... using AltGR to reach vital keys is not fast nor accurate!

[ch_123]

The US International with Alt-Gr Dead Keys layout (I assume that you use Linux given that you use LaTeX and that you program =P) will give you alt-gr access to accented vowels. Depends on whether you need more access to programming characters or letters with various accents on them...

[DreymaR]

In my layout you have both. Dead keys with AltGr, "live" accents the normal US layout way (or in some cases where the US layout don't have them, Shift+AltGr). Lets me both type anything I need to and live in a world where programmers don't like dead keys. Neat, huh?

[porgo]

Then you don't mean this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KB_Germany.svg

[DreymaR]

Huh? Huh-what? What-huh-whattywhat?

You really shouldn't show the QWERTZ to people like that, you know. It's scary. Horrible, horrible QWERTZ. *shudder*

[porgo]

Umm.. I dunno why I posted a German layout I didn't happen to remember you posted a Colemak few posts earlier, and you live in Norway anyay. Somewhere I found this German thing.

Dead keys are quite ok to me. Using US international would be quite ideal for me, even though writing Finnish would get a little stiffy. However, it is a minor issue compared to the high navigation speeds at Vim when you have all the nice buttons easily available.

So I've just reasoned to myself to not to buy another board... at least if it doesn't feature US layout and isn't a Topre. I will be keeping my eyes open but not actively looking to buy one.

[DreymaR]

Haha. You know, come 1945 we sorta stopped being German and the five preceding years never caught on as a very popular period in Norwegian history.    Kinda like calling the US 'the rebellious colonies'...

I think the US International layout has flaws, mainly that it's a pain to use for coding. May not be a problem for you I guess.

I use a Wide modded Colemak layout with CapsLock as an Extend key for special key access, and Norwegian characters added. I use Vim with my own colemak mappings, somewhat similar to Shai Coleman's colemak vim mappings but more to my tastes. Between the vim mappings and the Extend layout, I get some vim-like navigation in all editors which is nice.