Topre Realforce 76u Keyboard

[didjamatic]

Finally, a HHKB alternative with a more friendly and adaptable layout for most users.  Fn turns number key row into F keys and gives access to a programmable layer.  This layout has proper enter and backspace keys, as well as good placement of arrow keys and the keys on the far right.  You can do one handed Ctrl-Alt-Del with this board.  Available in Variable 35/45g, uniform 45g or uniform 55g resistance.

Of course, this is only if they actually make it.

EDIT:  Just to be 100% clear, this keyboard is not a production model, I just created the graphic as what I believe is an excellent standard layout keyboard in a compact format.  It's essentially an 87u that has the Fkeys merged into the number key row and the tilde moved next to the spacebar to make room for the Esc key, then a Fn key to access the Fkey layer.  I hope to see this layout in production from PFU or Filco or any quality keyboard maker someday as it has everything a touch typist needs, who prefers a standard layout but in a smaller footprint with zero cramping or awkwardness if you are switching between this and a full sized keyboard such as a Model M.

[salcan]

I'd take it over the 87u!

So variable 35/45 not 35/45/55, interesting.

Is there an ETA?

[sixty]

Maybe, just maybe if you mentioned dip switches in your fake text I would have fallen for this :lie:

[TexasFlood]

Nice.  Where'd you find that?  It's fake!? Damn!

[salcan]

ha timing seemed suspicious. and i was wondering why my google search brought up nothing.

 can't we still hope though?

[ch_123]

You can do one handed Ctrl-Alt-Del with this board.

Too bad I don't use Windows Vista...

[trievalot]

Too bad I don't use Windows Vista...

vista........who uses vista?

[itlnstln]

That would be an interesting concept, but it seems uncommitted.  It's like it doesn't have balls enough to be an HHKB, and it really only cuts out the F keys, so why not get the 87U?

[ch_123]

There's a lot of people who seem to **** bricks over the thought of not having dedicated arrow keys, and that HHKB layout where they put in arrow keys was a bit of a mess.

But you do touch on a good point - it's basically the same thing as an 87U. In fact, there are plenty of situations where a HHKB layout with dedicated F-keys would be better than the above layout.

[itlnstln]

Actually, I like not having the arrow keys any more. If I use my right pinky on Fn, my fingers are directly over the arrow keys. That, and I like having the F keys on Fn. I use F9 a lot, but otherwise, I don't really use them that much. I have been using the HHKB so much now, I having a hard time with regular keyboards. I can't tell you how many times I have typed \\\\\\ trying to press Backspace.
 
I can't wait to get my numpad tomorrow.

[didjamatic]

I'd take it over the 87u! So variable 35/45 not 35/45/55, interesting.

The 35/45/55 boards only have a 55g Esc key, everything else is 35/45 so the 55g is more of a novelty on those boards.

------

I forgot to mention, it comes with a carry case, detachable usb cable, 2 USB ports on each side of the board, an optional numpad that can plug into the top right or left side of the keyboard, swappable Ctrl-CapsLock Keys, a set of colored WASD keys for the gamers and a set of otaku caps.

[didjamatic]

I have been using the HHKB so much now, I having a hard time with regular keyboards. I can't tell you how many times I have typed \\\\\\ trying to press Backspace..

That's the issue with going to HHKB if you use multiple computers.  It becomes a challenge to use a non-standard layout and go back and forth between that and other normal keyboards.  (Which is why I've stuck to qwerty, but that's another discussion)

With the design above, you can easily go back and forth.  It's basically a full featured standard layout like a Model M with some extra modifier keys... that has been compacted as tightly as possible without affecting layout.

The Realforce 87u is almost perfect to me.  The 76u is basically chopping 2" off of the top of the 87u and merging Fkey functions into the number key row.  Pretty simple and would be very effective.  It's like the next evolutionary step after tenkeyless... it's Fkeyless but maintains a standard layout so there's no learning curve to using it.



The HHKB is an excellent design with it's merits for some niche users, but this keyboard is for anyone who wants a compact or portable option without being cramped.

I prefer the layout of the Japanese HHKB Pro 2 with it's arrow keys and extra modifiers but there is still the issue of the wonky enter key and needing to use a modifier key to backspace.  Personally I think the HHKB lite is the best layout of the HHKB series.  But the 76u layout for me is more functional than any of them due to the types of key combinations I use on a daily basis and that there is no layout adjustment or learning requirement to use it.

Realforce 76u - Standard US layout in a Compact Board


US/Standard HHKB Pro 2


Japanese HHKB Pro 2 w/Arrow Keys


HHKB Lite 2

[itlnstln]

The HHKB Lite 2 is probably the best layout of all of them with the dedicated Fn key on the left and the arrow keys for those who want them.  I think those are minor differences, though.

[ch_123]

I could do with that second Fn, but I could live without the dedicated arrow keys.

[itlnstln]

I could do with that second Fn, but I could live without the dedicated arrow keys.

Agreed.  I don't use the left command key, so I just map it there, but a dedicated one would be nice.

[Rajagra]

I don't know if this 76u is real, but I'm sending out a plea to all manufacturers. If you're going to put a Fn key on your keyboards, please please please put it to good use. Have the arrow keys replicated by Fn-WASD (or any other easy to use inverted-T layout, allowing you to stay on the home row.) Make it possible to emulate every single key on a standard keyboard for compatiblity's sake. And that includes the numpad keys in NumLock off state.

Having a Fn key and leaving most keys on the new layer unused is incredibly shortsighted.

[didjamatic]

If it's programmable, that gives you the ability to choose what the Fn key or any other modifier key does, so any restrictions are lifted on what keys do which functions.

[porgo]

I'm quite suprised how few of our community actually uses the good old *Nix key bindings. Backspace? There's ^H. There are hjkl instead of the arrow keys, so on. Is it elite to use a elite keyboard with lame key bindings?

[didjamatic]

It may feel good but it ain't precise.

Would you rather spend an evening with Megan Fox or a set of calipers?  (I'd insert an image but I'm at work.)  Sometimes feeling good is more important than precision...  Thock Thock Thock.

[itlnstln]

And with that, didjamatic wins my new quote.
 
The sad thing is, it seems that most people around here might choose the latter.

[didjamatic]

Since a majority of the world types on a standard layout, I think removing the 10 key and integrating F keys into other keys to reduce a keyboard's footprint is the best way to create a compact keyboard that will be usable to the most people.  Adding a Fn or modifier key could allow multiple layers to address custom needs, functions and preferences that more advanced users would like to have.

If we're having an elite peeing contest, then the winner would be using a binary layout:

[AgentHeavy]

Notice the long long tactile bump in the OP.  People who think the Realforce/HHKB is MORE tactile than a Brown Cherry are dreaming.  You really are getting very little feedback from the tactile bump.

It may feel good but it ain't precise.

What's the purpose having a Topres if the feedback is not that good and if the bord is not so silent ?

The made in Japan thing ?

[didjamatic]

Actually in research they do tend to find that people type faster and make less errors with the MORE tactile and audio feedback they receive.

Depends on whether you consider the keyboard a tool or a sex object.

Of course it's a tool, but it's one that it's feel is very important.   I don't find Topres to be imprecise.  I type about 70-75 on Cherry browns, 75-80 on buckling spring and 80-85 on Topres.  True, I'm not a 100wpm wonder yet, but I find the feel and flow that I get from a Topre leads to a better typing experience and overall better performance.

[Desperado]

Hi guys, i have a HHKB Pro 2 at home and the one thing that gets me off with this keyboard is the location of the up/right/down/left keys, is there some way in linux to map these to (fn + i/l/k/j) respectively?

[itlnstln]

What's the purpose having a Topres if the feedback is not that good and if the bord is not so silent ?

The made in Japan thing ?

Pretty much ignore anything anyone says about how switches feel. It's all subjective. What I feel/hear and how I feel/hear it is totally different than other people.
 
IMO, I think ripster is missing the point on the tactile bump being rather long. Sure, it graphs that way, but your keypress is a fraction of a second, so the graph doesn't tell the whole story. BUT... I formed my opinion based on what and how I perceive a switch and what is important to my typing experience.

[itlnstln]

Hi guys, i have a HHKB Pro 2 at home and the one thing that gets me off with this keyboard is the location of the up/right/down/left keys, is there some way in linux to map these to (fn + i/l/k/j) respectively?

I don't believe the Fn key sends a scancode, so probably not. Do you use the dedicated Fn key, or do you have it set up so the left command also acts as a Fn?  You might want to try an alternate Fn location if you haven't already.  If I use my pinky to press the dedicated Fn key, my fingers are perfectly aligned to the arrows.

[TexasFlood]

So the 76u is real, or at least the design is?  Just curious as I get 0 hits googling that.

[didjamatic]

It's not, I just chopped up a photo of a Realforce 87u and used my incredible MSpaint skills to create the image.  But I wish it was real.

[Desperado]

I'm not sure if there's a difference between HHKB models, mine is supposed to be a US layout where the arrow keys are mapped like:

left: ;
right:  '
up: [
down: /



My model is actually one with blank keycaps  but the position of the arrow keys are shown in the picture as orange overlays on that picture.

[itlnstln]

That's how mine is. When I press the Fn key with my pinky, my index finger is on the left arrow, and my middle finger is on the up/right arrow. I reach down with my index finger to press the down arrow.

[Desperado]

Ah i now see what you mean, you press the fn key with your right pinky for such you transpose your hand and end up with your index finger ontop of the left arrow. I was getting it all wrong, my understanding was that you pressed the fn key with your left pinky and your index finger was right on the left key (that would be what i desire, using the j/l/i/k keys) i wasn't really getting your comment.

I would have never thought of using the j/l/i/k keys for arrows if i hadn't seen that those are the planned arrow keys for the future guru-board (these guys should really hurry, or by the time they release the keyboard i'll be broke)

[itlnstln]

It makes sense if your goal is to not move off the home row. WSAD might make more sense for the gaming crowd, but for us spreadsheet/text jockeys, JKLI is better as those are pressed with the right hand just as they are with conventional layouts (and the HHKB for that matter).

[porgo]

HJKL covers the left and right directions just to be complete; vim/less users usually need no H or L to anything; there are more powerful and specific movement commands inside a row. So the JK are just to browse rows.

Edit: I'm not following, what are we talking about here?

[itlnstln]

Still bugs me:
 
1. Default setup is for clawing with right hand. Not terribly ergonomic IMHO since most people get Carpal Tunnel in their right hand from mousing and since it's the hand used in general the most.
 
2. You are using your weak fingers.
 
3. Since it's NOT inverted T my little brain has one more step to adjust to NORMAL keyboards.
 
4. Most people these days ARE raised on WASD. Lots of muscle memory you have there.
 
The HHKB is popular because it looks good and Richard Stallman uses it. I don't think it either has the best switches OR the best layout.

Assuming you are talking about the HHKB...
 
1. Agreed, good point.
 
2. Huh?  I only use my index and middle finger for pressing arrows.  My pinky just rests on the Fn key; I don't press it.
 
3. Subjective.  It's not that hard, especially if your from the old-school with the diamond arrow keys, but that's a personal thing.
 
4. That's a weak argument.  People don't use WASD for page nav, that's a completely different process both mentally and physically.  Besides that, the HHKB was designed by and for code/text jockeys, so it would be natural the arrow keys be on the right side of the 'board where the rest of the page nav functions are.

[ch_123]

4. That's a weak argument.  People don't use WASD for page nav, that's a completely different process both mentally and physically.  Besides that, the HHKB was designed by and for code/text jockeys, so it would be natural the arrow keys be on the right side of the 'board where the rest of the page nav functions are.

I'm pretty sure that those are the keys in Emacs that are mapped to up, down, right, left. In Emacs' main competitor - vim, the arrow keys are mapped to hjkl so it's pretty close to what they are used to too.

But hey, I can throw in loads of ad hominem arguments about things I don't agree with too!

[Desperado]

Personally the appeal that i get from the possibility of using jkli keys for arrow navigation is:

1. i use the exact same fingers and finger layout that i use on regular keyboard cursor keys.

2. If the left arrow key rests under my right index finger i never have to leave the home row and loose the keyboard spatial reference (i still have a bit of a hard time if i loose spatial notion of where f and j keys are because i only started typing with all fingers a few months ago)

3. Personally i can use wasd quite well for games, but actually navigating a block of text or some other application (mail client, web browser, etc...) is a no no for me.

Again, just my 2 cents. On many applications i end up using the emacs shortcuts (emacs, firefox + firemacs, xfce-terminal).

[didjamatic]

If you manipulate text using ctrl+shift and arrows to highlight, then ctrl+x/c to cut/copy, then arrows to move cursor, then ctrl+v to paste... often with the use of Backspace and Enter along the way... you can see that arrow keys are essential.  If you add in having to Fn to access arrow keys or BS, it becomes a bigger chore to manipulate text.  I also use Home/End frequently.

ctrl+shift+Fn+arrow is a 4 key combo, so unless you're well versed at eagles claw kung fu, it may pose a challenge for a full day's work.

[TexasFlood]

It's not, I just chopped up a photo of a Realforce 87u and used my incredible MSpaint skills to create the image.  But I wish it was real.

Figured it wasn't real, since it only existing on an obscure server and was a bitmap rather than a PDF etc.  But I wanted it to be true, as you said.

[ch_123]

If you manipulate text using ctrl+shift and arrows to highlight, then ctrl+x/c to cut/copy, then arrows to move cursor, then ctrl+v to paste... often with the use of Backspace and Enter along the way... you can see that arrow keys are essential.  If you add in having to Fn to access arrow keys or BS, it becomes a bigger chore to manipulate text.  I also use Home/End frequently.

ctrl+shift+Fn+arrow is a 4 key combo, so unless you're well versed at eagles claw kung fu, it may pose a challenge for a full day's work.

That's why there's a DIP switch to turn the Del key into a Back Space, and Del becomes Fn+`~ In emacs, Del = Backspace, so that's why it's that way by default.

And sure enough, those keys are not the arrow keys in Emacs - from the emacs tutorial -

You can use the arrow keys, but it's more efficient to keep your hands in the standard position and use the commands C-p, C-b, C-f and C-N

Where C represents Control. Either RMS uses Dvorak, or he's one hell of a troll.

[Rajagra]

If you manipulate text using ctrl+shift and arrows to highlight, then ctrl+x/c to cut/copy, then arrows to move cursor, then ctrl+v to paste... often with the use of Backspace and Enter along the way... you can see that arrow keys are essential.  If you add in having to Fn to access arrow keys or BS, it becomes a bigger chore to manipulate text.  I also use Home/End frequently.

ctrl+shift+Fn+arrow is a 4 key combo, so unless you're well versed at eagles claw kung fu, it may pose a challenge for a full day's work.

For this reason I've thought it might be a good idea to have the keys Shift/Ctrl/Alt/Fn all in a row of 4, on both the left and right of the space bar. That way you can use the four fingers of one hand to press the right combination of modifiers, and the other hand to press the main key.

You could make the shift keys double-height so they are still usable in their normal places.  (Or just have multiple shift keys to fill that area.)

Edit> I'm leaning towards this idea:


You could even have it so pressing both Shifts on one side acts as the Widows key.

[elbowglue]

If you manipulate text using ctrl+shift and arrows to highlight, then ctrl+x/c to cut/copy, then arrows to move cursor, then ctrl+v to paste... often with the use of Backspace and Enter along the way... you can see that arrow keys are essential.  If you add in having to Fn to access arrow keys or BS, it becomes a bigger chore to manipulate text.  I also use Home/End frequently.

ctrl+shift+Fn+arrow is a 4 key combo, so unless you're well versed at eagles claw kung fu, it may pose a challenge for a full day's work.

So true. I have not used the hhkb myself however this is some of the reason I see big advantages of the standard layout compared with the HHKB layout.  You can always add extra layers via AHK to a standard topre to keep everything in the home row, (go from topre to pseudo HHKB)  but you can't go back.

[JulienC]

I'm quite suprised how few of our community actually uses the good old *Nix key bindings. Backspace? There's ^H. There are hjkl instead of the arrow keys, so on. Is it elite to use a elite keyboard with lame key bindings?

Exactly. Even before my HHKB, I was editing code/text in vim, and I never needed arrow keys, backspace, home/end/pgup/pgdn, etc. so the HHKB felt immediately natural. Plus vimperator brings all this goodness to firefox.

[didjamatic]

I use ctrl+alt+insert and ctrl+alt+del all day long as I work in virtual machine consoles and being able to do that in one movement is very convenient.  Modern text and spreadsheet editors require dedicated arrow keys and home/end/del/insert keys IF you want to be highly efficient and not have to get all wonky with your hands in some contorted display of l33tness.  If you use Emacs or VI a lot, then I can understand using the HHKB because it's strengths for you may outweigh it's shortcomings.  Props to it's creator.

I only type up to 85wpm, but most people are shocked at how quickly I can navigate through windows and applications with a keyboard.  For me, this wouldn't be an option with the HHKB.  I would love to use one, believe me, but it just wont work for my discipline of kung fu.  That's why I wish they made a board like the 76u, it does everything my Model M's, Filcos and 87u's do, but is more compact and allows me to move between computers with standard keyboard layouts easily.

[itlnstln]

The only I don't like about the page nav "cluster" on the HHKB is the location of Home and End.  If they were swapped with Page Up/Down, it would be perfect for me.

[whiskerBox]

Why isn't this real?

[dorkvader]

Why isn't this real?

Because you necro'd it.

I suspect the real reason is that the company doesn't want to make A 'board that small. Sure, the HHKB is pretty killer (or so I've read) but this would be an all-new layout. I imagine lots of their customers in the luxury market wouldn't like it, or wouldn't prefer it to the 86u they already sell.

[whiskerBox]

Because you necro'd it.

Yes this is true.

But this is such a cool Idea, I like the RF but its just not as portable as the HHKB. If this existed I would pick it hands down no contest over the HHKB.

[dorkvader]

Yeah, I'm a little loath to get the really tiny keyboards. I was considering buying an HHKB in '08, when I got my model M out of the attic, but it was too expensive for me, and I didn't think I'd like the layout.

This 76U strikes me as a good compromise between size and usefulness.

[duncan]

This 76U strikes me as a good compromise between size and usefulness.

This^

I would buy one of these in a heartbeat (assuming it was no more insanely expensive than other Torpe boards).

[whiskerBox]

We just need an IN with topre.
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