Need advice on a good mini keyboard

[jx4]

Hello.

This is my first post at geekhack.

Short post description: Need advice on a good mini keyboard.

Long description:

I have problems with my arms and hands, diagnosed as tennis elbow on both arms, and a physical therapist says she thinks the most problemtic area in my case is my neck, that is tense and hinders the bloodflow to the muscles and nerves in the arms and hands.

Anyway, I have got a mousetrapper which is a good input device, and the tip to get two mice to place on the sides of the keyboard, to vary with the mousetrapper. She also said that I should get a mini keyboard since it makes the travel for the arms to the sides, for using the other mice, minimal.

So, I dug up the one mini keyboard I do own, an Adesso ACK-595, and sure it is small, but the keylayout is terrible and the "feel" of typing on it is also pretty terrible.

I think I need a mini keyboard that has normal size keys, a "normal" keylayout that I am used to, but without the numeric section to the right of course.

I think I need very low force to activate the keys so my arms and hands gets as little stress as possible.

Im not sure at all about what I really need, but I think the feeling of the keys is top priority, second the size of the keys that they are as close to normal size layout as possible, because that is what I have learnt to type on and I guess I would have to relearn musclememory with smaller keys. Plus that I have large hands...

I also wonder about those keyboards with an "Fn" key. I am used to using shift + numerical keys and altgr + numerical keys to get my special characters that I use when I write code or scripts. I am from Sweden so I use a swedish keyboard layout, and if I recall correctly, swedish layout (and maybe most non english layouts what do I know) have more "special chars" on the number row that one needs to activate with shift or altgr, than in the english layout.

Can one use a "fn" keyboard as productively when coding since many mini keyboards has fn key?

I have bought keyboards from ebay sometimes and thought about it like "the printed keylayout doesn't matter, a non correct printed layout might just force me to become a better typist and truly learn the layout I am using by heart". But in reality, I am not good enough a typist to not have to look at the keyboard when I enter those really long passwords, so I guess I would prefer a keyboard that fits my needs that also is available with swedish printer layout. But that is also not THAT important since I can always put stickers ontop of the keys or something if I really need it.

From what I have read on this website ( http://www.ergocanada.com/ergo/keyboards/mechanical_vs_membrane_keyswitches.html ) , Cherry Brown switches seems like a good idea.

Here are some keyboards I am considering (will probably not be able to find them with swedish layout though):

http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_87key&pid=fkbn87meb

http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=pfu_keyboards,hhkbpro2&pid=pdkb400w

http://www.guru-board.com/

Thoughts and suggestions are welcome.

[Rajagra]

I would say the FKBN87M/EB you listed would be perfect ... if it wasn't missing the key to the left of Z. If you continue to use the Swedish keyboard driver, you will be unable to type the < > | characters. Would you be happy to work around that problem, for example by remapping keys in the OS?

I don't know of any 'tenkeyless' boards that have the extra key of the European layouts.

[EverythingIBM]

How about a swedish thinkpad keyboard?


It's small, has a trackpoint, and very short distance, whilst providing a nice feel from the switches.

[jx4]

I would say the FKBN87M/EB you listed would be perfect ... if it wasn't missing the key to the left of Z. If you continue to use the Swedish keyboard driver, you will be unable to type the < > | characters. Would you be happy to work around that problem, for example by remapping keys in the OS?

I don't know of any 'tenkeyless' boards that have the extra key of the European layouts.

If I understand you correctly, you mean that this problem would arise if I use a Swedish keyboard layout in my OS, with a non-Swedish layout (english for example) keyboard.

Yes if so I could remap that key to Caps Lock in Linux. No problem. What is most important is that the keys are as close to a "stadard" key laout that most pc keyboards has, and if possible the same size (or close) of the keys (but without the number pad and also perhaps a layout even smaller like HHK or mini-guru)

And since my arms and hands are ****edup from RSI, (and I shouldn probably just stay away from typing at all but you guys know how depressing that is if you love computers), I think I would need a very light keyboard / nice to my hands and arms...

If FKBN87M/EB, then I have been thinking about brown switches. I have no idea how sensitive these switches really are, I have never tested a cherry keyboard. I want to be able to type with as little effort as possible, but when some people haves written here on geekhack that like if you blow on the keys they will activate, I wonder if I will have problems resting my fingers gently on the homerow without activiating the keys. On my standard crappy membrane keyboard I am typing this on I don't think I can even imagine how sensitive a keyboard must be if you can blow on the keys to activate them. My concern is mainly that if they are TOO light, I will not be able to rest my fingers on the homerow, but that I will actually have to keep them abit over the keys and that that will make me unable to actually rest my fingers when not typing. It can't be good to have to actively keep the fingers a bit over the homerow keys to prevent activating them by mistake, that must also create muscle strain and tension...

Then again I think it would be ideal with as light keyaction as possible...

[ch_123]

Haven't used a Brown Cherry, but from having a Topre which is just as light (45g resistance) I don't think it's a problem if you get used to it. I have had some situations where I switch to my HHKB after using my Model M, and I accidentally depress a key without realizing it. As I said though, I think it's really an issue of adjustment which pays off in the end.

[jx4]

How about a swedish thinkpad keyboard?

Show Image

It's small, has a trackpoint, and very short distance, whilst providing a nice feel from the switches.

I actually think I might have one of those but with english layout laying around here somewhere. Do you know how to interface those to a pc? If it is possible, either by wiring them to ps/2 cable or via a microcontroller, then please give me the information on how to do this.

I thought those keyboards didn't have the controller in the keyboards but that the controller was on the latop motherboard, and hence it would be very hard to hook such a keyboard up to a PC.

[Nonmouse]

If FKBN87M/EB, then I have been thinking about brown switches. I have no idea how sensitive these switches really are, I have never tested a cherry keyboard. I want to be able to type with as little effort as possible, but when some people haves written here on geekhack that like if you blow on the keys they will activate, I wonder if I will have problems resting my fingers gently on the homerow without activiating the keys

They're nowhere near that light.  Activating them by "blowing on them" is wild exaggeration.  They're only 10% lighter than Cherry blue switches (45 cN vs 50 cN).  They do feel smoother, since the tactile "bump" is less pronounced.  

My "daily  driver" is an MX-8100 (G80-8113) with brown switches- it might be a possible solution for you, since it has an integrated touchpad just to the right of the alphanumeric section of the board.  It also has programmable, relegendable keys that could be programmed for any special keys or short macros- you can store up to 16 keystrokes on each programmable key.  It has a row of 13 extra keys above the Function keys, and all the keys except those in the alphanumeric block are programmable (59 programmable keys total).  It looks like this:


Oh, it also has a credit card reader. Works great for holding letters or business cards.  =D

[EverythingIBM]

I actually think I might have one of those but with english layout laying around here somewhere. Do you know how to interface those to a pc? If it is possible, either by wiring them to ps/2 cable or via a microcontroller, then please give me the information on how to do this.

I thought those keyboards didn't have the controller in the keyboards but that the controller was on the latop motherboard, and hence it would be very hard to hook such a keyboard up to a PC.

You MIGHT be able to get a normal UltraNav and mount the swedish one in it.


However, I never opened or owned an UltraNav.

[ch_123]

I wouldn't describe a thinkpad keyboard as being low-force, especially when compared with a Cherry Brown or Topre, which sounds exactly like what the OP needs.

[didjamatic]

I would go for a variable resistance Topre, or Cherry Brown keyboard.  The HHKB is a love it or hate it keyboard, it's pros are for programmers and cons for most "normal" or windows power users and administrators.

The Guru Board looks to be fantastic but not out until later this year.  Hopefully they will address scrolling and fwd/back in their layout, but with programmability and layers this shouldn't be an issue.

You said you didn't want a keypad, but if you are only saying this because of keyboard width, check out the Compaq MX11800, Cherry MX SPOS or Cherry G81 keyboards but be sure they have Cherry Brown switches.  The MX11800 has an integrated trackball and it's the cheapest by far.

A SIIG Minitouch with ALPS is another option, but inferior switches to the other boards mentioned.  

If I were you, I would stick to Cherry Browns, then if that doesn't work give Topre a try.  Cherry browns are half the price or less than a Topre solution and for your situation I think browns would be the best switch for you.

[Rajagra]

If I understand you correctly, you mean that this problem would arise if I use a Swedish keyboard layout in my OS, with a non-Swedish layout (english for example) keyboard.

Almost. An English English (UK) keyboard would be OK as it has the extra key to the left of Z. It uses the ISO physical layout, same as a Swedish keyboard. Only the labelling is different.

An American English (US) keyboard is has the problem because it has no letter key to the left of Z. This ANSI physical layout is literally one key short, it is more than a matter of relabelling. As long as you have a key you are willing to remap, the problem goes away. You just have to be aware that if you walk up to a random PC configured for a Swedish keyboard and plug a US keyboard in, the fact that you can't type certain characters could leave you feeling foolish.

The US keyboard makes up for the missing key by having a bigger left shift. Also the Enter key is closer to the right pinkie. Many people (like me) find this makes them more comfortable overall.

[Nonmouse]

check out the ... Cherry G81 keyboards but be sure they have Cherry Brown switches.  

Surely you meant G80, yes?  G81 are all membrane boards...

[EverythingIBM]

I wouldn't describe a thinkpad keyboard as being low-force, especially when compared with a Cherry Brown or Topre, which sounds exactly like what the OP needs.

Well, I always bottom out the keys on a thinkpad keyboard, so, I thought it was a much lighter keyboard to press. Well, I bottom out all keyboards so far. It's so difficult not to: especially since I type fast.

And, I was also trying to find a swedish layout specifically.

[didjamatic]

Surely you meant G80, yes?  G81 are all membrane boards...

Nope, I meant G81, I have a G81-1800 right here with double shot keys and MX switches in it.  

[HaaTa]

Surely you meant G80, yes?  G81 are all membrane boards...

Nope, I meant G81, I have a G81-1800 right here with double shot keys and MX switches in it.  

*Envious*

[Nonmouse]

Nope, I meant G81, I have a G81-1800 right here with double shot keys and MX switches in it.  

Hmmm...  Okay.  I had thought that all G81 were either either rubber dome or MY ("switch" over membrane) boards.  Cherry's description of the current G81-1800, at least, doesn't sound like MX-

Mechanical Keyswitches are Rated at 50 Million Actuations to Withstand Harsh Environments and Ensure Long Product Lifetime

No mention of gold-plated contacts, and the "harsh environments" is what they usually use to indicate a membrane board...

Actually, looking at the datasheet, that's exactly what it is:

FTSC technology (mechanical individual keys with membrane contact switches)

[/color]

[EverythingIBM]

Mechanical Keyswitches are Rated at 50 Million Actuations to Withstand Harsh Environments and Ensure Long Product Lifetime

The model Fs were rated 100 million keystrokes. Now *thats* impressive.

[ch_123]

Seriously, if you have any IBM stuff saying that they are rated for that many presses, I'd love to see it.

[jx4]

Hello again.

I still haven't bought a decent keyboard. I guess everything is about priorities but cash has had to go elsewhere this far. Still googleing around trying to decide what to buy though. Thanks for all replies and tips.

I was reading this thread about different switches http://www.overclock.net/computer-peripherals/491752-mechanical-keyboard-guide.html and it says the following:

As linear (non-tactile) switches, these are one of the best types for gaming. When gaming, having a tactile bump does absolutely nothing because you're going to be bottoming out anyway. So these give you a very smooth feel. Also, the actuation and release points are at the exact same position. So games that require a lot of double tapping become easier than on any other key switch. However, most people don't enjoy typing on them that much.

If you're a person who tends to hit a wrong key every so often while gaming, these will be beneficial in that the high actuation force will help prevent many of those accidental presses.

This is mentioned about the Cherry MX Black switch.

Why would a linear switch not be good for typing? Maybe I am over obsessing over actuation force (in trying to get a keyboard that will be best for my RSI problems), but wouldn't even that small "tactile bump" of for example Cherry MX Brown switches add to the actuation force / strain on arms and hands when typing? If that isn't the case I would appreciate some more information. With the reasoning that the "tactile bump" of the non-linear MX Brown switches would add to the effort needed to type, it now seems that the Cherry MX Red switches might also be a good option?

The Cherry MX Red switches has the same actuation force specs as the Cherry MX Brown (45g) but are linear, and the post says about the Red:

These are linear just like the Blacks, except they require less force. These would be best for gaming as long as you're not prone to accidental keypresses, as they are pretty lightweight.

If the Red would require less force, the only thing I can think about that would make it less ideal for admin/coding and non-gaming usage is just that, the potential for accidental keypresses. Other than that though?

I also have rethought  the need for a narrow keyboard without the numberpad. My main priority is only to ease my RSI symptoms, and I have a touchpad like input device in front of my keyboard now (and don't even use the two mice I have setup ocationally on the sides of the keyboard for ergonomic variation). So I just need a keyboard with the right keys and preferably with key layout that is the same as on Swedish keyboards (ISO), but it doesn't matter what is actually printed on the keys. I would of course be able to adjust to an ANSI keyboard also with time.

What do you think? Brown or Red switches? And what is the cheapest keyboard you would recommend with the recommended switches if so? PS/2 or USB, width of keyboard, doesn't matter... just the feel of the keys and no funky weird keyboard layouts.

Btw it really sucks that the miniguru was canceled.

[Arc'xer]

Linear means it's progressive-resistance and no tactility. It subtly increases in force over the 4.0mm travel and since there is no tactile bump you don't know when to stop before so you keep going and bottom out. Cherry mx black starts at 40g, actuates at 60g, and bottoms out at 80g.

It's better for gaming as tactile bump is too much mental focus. But for typing the primary reason why the mx black is disliked is the amount of force and resistance it has primarily because the spring is short and thick. A great example is the model M it has nearly the amount of force of a mx black but because of the tactility of it, it can be typed on ad nauseum but for some the mx black are tiring after just a few minutes.

Cherry mx red is a recent switch and rare. But it's a light linear and a greatly different than the mx black who's main criticism is the sheer amount of force needed. Cherry mx red Starts at 35g, actuates at 45g, and bottoms out at 60g. Big difference versus the mx black higher force, plus the spring on the reds are more brown like i.e. long and thin rather than the mx black spring being short and thick which also adds to the resistive and heavy feel.

It's not that the mx black are all bad they are very smooth and are quieter and produce less chatter than the browns but the negatives far outweigh the positives.

The tactile bump lets you catch yourself before bottoming out in fact for me it feels like I bottom out but it's a false sense so it does provide a less jarring experience and lets you quickly jump to another key without exerting too much force on the already actuated mechanical switch.

[Rajagra]

Cherry browns are magic. If you hit them hard while gaming they may as well be linear (like Cherry reds.) But when you type methodically the tactility appears from nowhere. The tactile bump is too subtle to be detrimental. I've never had the chance to try reds, but I doubt they offer any advantage over browns. Other than looking great when the keycaps are off. :smile:

Once you go brown, you'll never feel down.

[chrs]

I also have RSI and have found that the specific key type is absolutely critical.  High force is bad, and Lenovo laptops are in that category for me.  Cherry brown is very good.  I suspect that red would be better, and am considering modifying my brown to be red-like by buying a bunch of black keys and swapping in their stems.  Meantime I find my ALPS boards better for reasons I don't understand.  The other keyboard I use is a Goldtouch portable which is rubber dome/scissors, and very light force (39-42 g spec).  It works almost as well as the ALPS for me, probably about the same as the Cherry Brown.  

I should note that my cherry brown I got used--not sure if the age has had any effect on its feel and I've never tried a brand new cherry brown...

A great solution would likely be a datahand but they cost $1000 and one just went for $595 used on ebay, so that's not easy to swallow.

Another trick that I use is to use a large trackball (Kensignton "expert mouse") with my feet.  You can then do non-keyboard tasks with your arms 100% relaxed, and not have any issues with mouse placement.

[jx4]

Thanks for the information and tips.

I bought one of these Cherry MX8000 G80-8200 PS2 POS Keyboard+Card Reader WHT. They have Brown switches (checked with seller).

I will report back/give a review when I recieve it.

geekhack.org is awesome!    :rockon:

[Lanx]

thats the same model type i bought to mod my keyboard, the browns feel awesome, the force of activation feels the same as rubber dome, but w/o the mush feel, i love em.

[TexasFlood]

I would go for a variable resistance Topre, or Cherry Brown keyboard.  The HHKB is a love it or hate it keyboard, it's pros are for programmers and cons for most "normal" or windows power users and administrators.

The Guru Board looks to be fantastic but not out until later this year.  Hopefully they will address scrolling and fwd/back in their layout, but with programmability and layers this shouldn't be an issue.

You said you didn't want a keypad, but if you are only saying this because of keyboard width, check out the Compaq MX11800, Cherry MX SPOS or Cherry G81 keyboards but be sure they have Cherry Brown switches.  The MX11800 has an integrated trackball and it's the cheapest by far.

A SIIG Minitouch with ALPS is another option, but inferior switches to the other boards mentioned.  

If I were you, I would stick to Cherry Browns, then if that doesn't work give Topre a try.  Cherry browns are half the price or less than a Topre solution and for your situation I think browns would be the best switch for you.

I picked up a MX11800 to try cherry browns and like it pretty well.

[jx4]

Progress with this keyboard is going very slowly. I took the thing apart and cleaned it with air duster and when I plugged it into the PC afterwards I got a BEEP and some keys work and some don't. I should of course have tested the keyboard BEFORE taking it apart to clean it, but I didn't think about that at the time (I just got struck how filthy it was and wanted to clean it).

Anyway, I guess the next thing to do is to take it apart again and do a  continuity test with multimeter to check if some solder point got messed up when I took the parts out and back into the case during cleaning...

I don't know much about electronics but I think it is strange that only some keys works. I hope I will find that some solder point got messed up since that means I can just easily resolder it and get it working again.

It's a bit annoying that I can now never know if the keyboard was DOA or not. Maybe I will learn from that mistake

[jx4]

I mean that I opened the case, popped off all key caps, took out the PCB's from the case and put these aside, then cleaned dust of the PCB's with air duster, then cleaned the plastic keyboard case and the key caps with dish washing soap and water. Then let the case and key caps dry for many days and when completely dry I reassembled the keyboard again.

Yeah, the PCB's seem to be connected with some joints that I can imagine to be quite fragile. I wouldn't be surprised if I will find that some solder joints are bad (be it that they went bad when I handled them or the keyboard was DOA I will never know) and that I have to resolder them.

Here are some pics from when I took it apart:

[Lanx]

recheck the "blackpart" or the tiny board part, the ribbon cable is soldered directly on to the main board but "plugs in" to the tiny board, you might have a loose connection.
The ribbon is also bendable as in if you bend it too much it might snap, which exact keys are not working? if it is a cluster like "jklnm,uo" then you know 1 wire must have snapped, if it is a random bunch of keys then who knows.

I highly doubt the soldering is messed up on the underside of the board, taking apart 2 of those boards and desoldering one completely, the soldering is awesome.

[jx4]

I just plugged the keyboard in to check what keys works. This time I did not hear a beep as I plugged it in. (When I plugged it in at my fiancees PC yesterday I got a beep but the keyboard did not react at all.)

So right now "Tab", "Caps Lock", "Q", "A", "Z", "Left Ctrl", "W", "S", "X" all doesn't work. "2" works strangely though.

"T" doesn't work but "5, "G" and "B" works. The "5" on the number pad works "sometimes". The rest of the keys seem to work at least \o/

Thank you ripster and Lanx for input and advice

[Lanx]

yea at least one wire has had to have gotten loose or something with that left side cluster. see if you can reseat the ribbon cable, also look to see that the ribbon cable is not "bent" like one wire is making a straight angle where the rest of them are just following a natural curve, you might have bent it on disassembly.
5 on the numpad might well be associated with the tab/w/x/ cluster, you can check by following the traces if you want.

[jx4]

Thanks, I will check it out later with the multimeter. I must say that I am surprised to hear that these ribbon connectors are so fragile that they can't even be bent without failing. It seems amazingly stupid. Why oh why would anyone want to use these kind of cables in any device?

[jx4]

What does seat and reseat mean? Does it mean resolder the bad solder joints between the ribbon connector and PCB?

[theferenc]

Reseat means push the cable back down into its socket. No soldering necessary.

[jx4]

theferenc: Thank you.

[jx4]

I just did a  continuity test on the ribbon cables and they seem to be fine; none seem bent/broken and they all are connected as they should in their socket it seems. I also checked the two blue cables. However I ran these continuity tests with the multimeter on the component side of the PCB's (so I didn't have to take them out and risc messing these supposedly fragile ribbon cables up more).

Next thing to do I guess is to take the PCB's out and run continuity test on ribbon cables again on the solder side, and also run continuity tests over the whole damned thing to try to find where the breakage is.