Author Topic: Best choice for rapid fire  (Read 3604 times)

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Offline nedaroth

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 4
Best choice for rapid fire
« on: Fri, 02 April 2010, 00:27:00 »
Best choice for rapid fire

I know your all rolling your eyes right now but i need your help to select the right keyboard. I spend way to much time playing WOW and needless to say i go through a lot of boards, all junk so far.  My toon is a Ret pally and i have a 7 key rotation i use for raids. There are times when the keys on my current board feel dead, like im clicking away and not sure if some of the keys are even responding .  Is there such a board from Elite that would work for my kind of play style?

Thanks for any response.

Offline Arc'xer

  • Posts: 482
Best choice for rapid fire
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 02 April 2010, 01:47:02 »
That would be a cherry mx black switch or linear force as it's called. Though I should point out other switches can be used for gaming.

Cherry mx black are 40-60-80cN(grams). They start off at around 40cN, actuate at 60cN, and bottom out at 80cN. All this in a linear fashion that increases in resistance the further you go down. It's non-tactile and non-clicky meaning it doesn't have a bump that temporarily increases in force to let you know you actuated it. Nor does it make noise deliberately it's more to bottoming out with the MX black.

They are considered excellent for gaming due to the fact there is no tactile bump nor it makes noise in some cases are near silent if you learn not to bottom out. They allow for rapid double tapping as the fact the actuation and release points are dead center. They are also stiff though it depends on the person and feel heavy, again depends on the person.

All the reasons above make them not popular for typing. But there's a number of people on the internet as well as a small group here that do like the MX black or grow more fond of them with use. People are more fond the blues and browns for the tactile and audible feedback.

Shame cherry mx reds aren't around they are a light linear with if I'm not mistaken 30cN-45cN-60cN force 45cN being the actuation.

Though to be honest you didn't mention how you type or play. I just don't want to provide the wrong information and you make an impulse buy.

http://www.overclock.net/computer-peripherals/491752-mechanical-keyboard-guide.html As linear (non-tactile) switches, these are one of the best types for gaming. When gaming, having a tactile bump does absolutely nothing because you're going to be bottoming out anyway. So these give you a very smooth feel. Also, the actuation and release points are at the exact same position. So games that require a lot of double tapping become easier than on any other keyswitch. However, most people don't enjoy typing on them that much.

If you're a person who tends to hit a wrong key every so often while gaming, these will be beneficial in that the high actuation force will help prevent many of those accidental presses.


I like the way webwit put it.



http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech_cherry_mx.htm

If your looking for space saving you should wait a bit for the 87-key version since it's out of stock, unless you use the numpad. Though if you are a non-clicker and you fully utilize your keyboard in WoW then the numpad is extra hotkeys that can be placed on there so I guess it isn't bad. Considering your probably going to be hitting many keys are in combination the NKRO model is a must just make sure you have a PS/2 port to allow for nearly everything to go through.

 Not sure when if Majestouch could answer if he checks this that be nice when they come back. Since you did mention EKB don't worry much about the majestouch they are excellent build quality for a keyboard only negative I'd say is the keys and I'm not too picky on the keys to be frank.

If your still unsure do you research, so you don't get buyers remorse.

http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_104key&pid=fkbn104mleb

http://www.overclock.net/8448544-post5.html

All these are videos of the cherry mx black and it's noise level. SS7G uses the same switch the sound is bottoming out with the ring of the metal plate and the spring compressing.
« Last Edit: Fri, 02 April 2010, 01:49:40 by Arc'xer »

Offline Rajagra

  • Posts: 1930
Best choice for rapid fire
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 02 April 2010, 02:23:11 »
Do you mean you have to mash one button repeatedly, so it responds as soon as the cooldown is over, without server lag messing it up?

If so, then the best solution I found was to use a programmable keyboard/gamepad that did the mashing for me, sending the keystroke maybe 10 times a second when I held it down. It's a far more civilized solution than wrecking your fingers and keyboards.

I didn't like having to do that. It's borderline cheating, and does give you an unfair advantage in PvP. But the bottom line is you are doing it to overcome the limitations of the servers, not to exploit doing something you shouldn't normally be able to do. You are making the game work as intended. Blizzard has now tweaked the way keys respond so this isn't as necessary as it used to be, but it may be what you need.

But if you want a regular keyboard rather than a Logitech G15 or Nostromo N52, then one of the Cherry switch boards would give you what you need:

Cherry blues give the clearest tactile and audible feedback, but if you are button mashing, then they may slow you down or tire you because you have to move them a specific distance for each key press to make the internal mechanism cycle. Also a bad idea if you use Ventrilo/Teamspeak or whatever in game, as the keystrokes will be heard and annoy the hell out of everyone.

Cherry browns have light feedback and light force needed to press them. Also quiet. These would be best if you are *not* mashing keys, but pressing them calmly and deliberately at the right times, after each GCD.

Cherry blacks are firmest of the three. They are OK for key mashing, but give no feedback of how far down they activated. However, like the other Cherries and all good mechanical switches, they activate part way through the travel. So if you bottom out (push the keys all the way down) you know they have activated, and that may be all that you need.

So, not completely straightforward, you need to decide what your priorities are.

Offline Arc'xer

  • Posts: 482
Best choice for rapid fire
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 02 April 2010, 02:32:05 »
Quote from: Rajagra;168818
Do you mean you have to mash one button repeatedly, so it responds as soon as the cooldown is over, without server lag messing it up?

Hmm, I could have misread it. Though when I see or hear rapid fire I usually think tapping and whatnot. All cherry mx switches actuate half-way. Full-travel 4.0mm with actuation 2.0mm, the difference in switches aside from color is the tactility and or noise if desired.

As for the whole macro thing not sure I think it's just silly I used to play MMOs here and there and to be honest I never bothered to make them nor use them even if I did. I always found myself just use 1-0 or whatever etc.etc. or clicking for the most part. Maybe that's my problem or I never played MMOs properly or something. I always click more than keyed well for the most part guess numpad movement/actions/camera with entire keyboard acting as a giant macro board would be best with occasional mouse use here and there.

It's sorta like RTS games after a while you just memorize where everything is and you find it faster and more rewarding using every key with every finger rather than 1-key does all. Plus it gives you a feel of control being able to fully control the character.

Like if we took a keyboard and consider that 97% of it is usable in some way for some action baring Win, Caps, Esc, some Function-keys.) Say 100-keys usable as a base, + modifiers(CTRL, Alt, Shift). In some way shape or form a keyboard all of a sudden becomes a 300-400 key macro board with combination of the modifers or whatnot could be thousands of possible keys. Only problem is remembering where everything is.
« Last Edit: Fri, 02 April 2010, 02:44:23 by Arc'xer »

Offline Nonmouse

  • Posts: 298
Best choice for rapid fire
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 02 April 2010, 02:36:30 »
Quote from: nedaroth;168807
Best choice for rapid fire

I know your all rolling your eyes right now but i need your help to select the right keyboard.

You came to Geekhack to ask about keyboards and you think that people are going to roll their eyes?  (Okay, I rolled my eyes at that, but it doesn't count.  Way too recursive.)

You're going to learn more than you ever dreamed of considering to be waaaaaaay more than you ever wanted to know about keyboards, keyswitches and why each one may or may not be the right choice for you.

You will be an informed consumer....

Offline Rajagra

  • Posts: 1930
Best choice for rapid fire
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 02 April 2010, 03:11:51 »
Quote from: Arc'xer;168820
Hmm, I could have misread it. Though when I see or hear rapid fire I usually think tapping and whatnot.


WoW tries to avoid frantic key tapping by having a global cooldown, usually 1.5 seconds. When you hit the key for one major command, it works, then you have to wait 1.5s before using another. (This is oversimplified, but go with it.)

In theory this should make for relaxed gameplay. In practice it can go very wrong.

If you wait 1.4 seconds before pressing the 2nd command, the system will say Haha, you hit it too soon, I'm going to ignore you!

If you wait 1.6 seconds the system should say OK, I'm ready, I'll do it. But you've introduced 0.1s of dead time where you've been sat doing nothing. You've cut down your performance by over 5%.

If you hit it at exactly 1.5s, you still can't win, because the Intraweb introduces latency, and the WoW servers have their own lag. So the result can be any of the above at random.

So what people often do is wait for what feels like the right time then hit the button. If it doesn't respond, they then start mashing the key rapidly until it does.

What I mentioned above is just an automated way of doing that. You press the button once, calmly. The action will happen as soon as it possibly can without any fuss on your part. It barely deserves the name macro, it isn't anything sophisticated, and it certainly isn't doing any decision making on your behalf. It's a simple workaround for the technical problems that online games inevitably suffer from.

In fact it's such a good workaround that Blizzard have implemented something along the same lines in the game itself. If you hit the key at 1.45s, they game is *supposed* to say OK, you hit it a bit early, but I will allow it. As soon as the 1.5s is up I will carry out your command.

But their system is far from foolproof. My keyboard mashing macro on the other hand, is rock solid. I stopped using it because Blizzard's improvements were 'good enough'. But I would set up the macros again in a heartbeat if I needed to.

Offline nedaroth

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 4
Best choice for rapid fire
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 02 April 2010, 12:38:14 »
arc'xer  - the board will only be used for games, the only typeing i do is chat and a email every now and then, and thanks for the excellent links. yes the 87 key version is the way i want to go. The first thing i do on my keyboards is to unbind the keys when playing this game (lol), as i do tend to hit the wrong key while in a frantic dps race with a boss and have my inventory screen pop up or one of the meny others. This is because i rest my hand on the keyboard when insted i guess i should prop my fingers up.


rajagra- you hit the nail on the head with the cooldowns and server lag, a lot of factors come into play here for sure. Oh yea they would throw me out of vent for sure so no blue (lol) Im so done with the so called gammer keyboards and my latest was the logitech G19, talk about a 200.00 dollar mistake.


nonmouse- Your not kidding hell i have learned more in this thread then i have after spending about 7 hours searching the internet. Never knew there was so much to know about a keyboard, and yes i will shop smarter now.


Hay thanks guys now i can feel a lot better in my choice for a keyboard and not go in blind.  Looks like black cherry 87 key version is the way i will go.

Offline elbowglue

  • Posts: 583
Best choice for rapid fire
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 02 April 2010, 12:45:34 »
If you are sure you want a black cherry spacesaver format consider these:

Filco black cherry with NKRO: http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_87key&pid=fkbn87mleb

Desko POS with black cherries, no NKRO: http://cgi.ebay.com/DESKO-MOS-5023-UP-KEYBOARD-USED-4-AIRPORT-CHECK-IN_W0QQitemZ150354249772QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item2301cfc82c#ht_4909wt_958
(I got the desko for $45 shipped)

Cherry MX11900, no NKRO: http://cgi.ebay.com/Point-of-sale-keyboard-Cherry-Model-MX11900_W0QQitemZ310205771833QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4839b47039#ht_646wt_958
(these were going for $15 dollars shipped previously on ebay for used models)

See my sig for the sizes of these keyboards.

I was doing some typing on a cherry black board...  it's actually not that bad to type on them.  I got 90 words per minute on ten fingers typing test on them, with zero mistakes.  The cherry blacks are so firm it's very hard to make a mistake on them.  Now I wouldn't want to type a *lot* with them my pinkies would probably get tired.
« Last Edit: Fri, 02 April 2010, 12:48:31 by elbowglue »
My keyboards: Filco Cherry Blue Tenkeyless(daily home), Compaq MX11800 (modded to blacks), Compaq "MX 84u",  Wellington\'s Dampened Endurapro, Pinkalicious Filco Blue Cherry, Chicony KB-5191, Chicony KB-5181, Desko MOS 5023 UP "elbowglue" spos (modded to blues), Siig Minitouch (monterey blue), SMK-88 (blue cherries), Ricercar SPOS
Smallest to biggest keyboards in inches (Length X Height) - Length is most important for a midline mouse position

KBC Poker: 11.6 x 3.9 - HHKB: 11.6 x 4.3 - Siig Minitouch (Geekhack Space Saver): 11.6 x 6 - Deck/Tg3 82: 12 x 6 - Noppoo Choc Mini 12.4 x 5.3 - Compaq "MX 84u": 13.1 x 7.5 - Filco Tenkeyless: 14 x 5.3 - Cherry "ricercar spos" G86-62410EUAGSA: 14 x 7.75 - Topre Realforce 86u: 14.4 x 6.65 - Desko "elbowglue spos" MOS 5023 UP: 14.5 x 8.4 - IBM Model M Spacesaver: 15.3 x 7 - G80-1800: 15.9 x 7.1 - Adesso MKB-125B: 16 x 7.3 - Compaq Mx11800, Cherry G80-11900: 16.25 x 7.5 - Filco Standard: 17.3 x 5.4 - Unicomp Endurapro: 17.9 x 7.1 - Adesso MKB-135B: 18.3 x 6.0 - Cherry G80-3000: 18.5 x 7.6 - IBM Model M, Unicomp Customizer: 19.3 x 8.27

Offline Otterclock

  • Posts: 144
Best choice for rapid fire
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 02 April 2010, 13:15:15 »
I have an MX11900 and I can see how it would be nice for gaming, if maybe a little firm.

I would never spend premium price for a gaming board. Even your average heated game moment often involves hitting the keys really hard, and many people take it much farther.  I'd get a cheap mechanical off ebay.

Quite honestly I will always game with rubber dome. Preferably something that can take a punch.
ABS M1|IBM Model M|Lite-On 1788|Cherry G83 6744LUAUS| Logitech S510| Scorpius M10| Cherry 11900.

Offline nedaroth

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 4
Best choice for rapid fire
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 02 April 2010, 13:42:48 »
Quote from: Arc'xer;168814
That would be a cherry mx black switch or linear force as it's called. Though I should point out other switches can be used for gaming.

Cherry mx black are 40-60-80cN(grams). They start off at around 40cN, actuate at 60cN, and bottom out at 80cN. All this in a linear fashion that increases in resistance the further you go down. It's non-tactile and non-clicky meaning it doesn't have a bump that temporarily increases in force to let you know you actuated it. Nor does it make noise deliberately it's more to bottoming out with the MX black.

They are considered excellent for gaming due to the fact there is no tactile bump nor it makes noise in some cases are near silent if you learn not to bottom out. They allow for rapid double tapping as the fact the actuation and release points are dead center. They are also stiff though it depends on the person and feel heavy, again depends on the person.

All the reasons above make them not popular for typing. But there's a number of people on the internet as well as a small group here that do like the MX black or grow more fond of them with use. People are more fond the blues and browns for the tactile and audible feedback.

Shame cherry mx reds aren't around they are a light linear with if I'm not mistaken 30cN-45cN-60cN force 45cN being the actuation.

Though to be honest you didn't mention how you type or play. I just don't want to provide the wrong information and you make an impulse buy.

http://www.overclock.net/computer-peripherals/491752-mechanical-keyboard-guide.html As linear (non-tactile) switches, these are one of the best types for gaming. When gaming, having a tactile bump does absolutely nothing because you're going to be bottoming out anyway. So these give you a very smooth feel. Also, the actuation and release points are at the exact same position. So games that require a lot of double tapping become easier than on any other keyswitch. However, most people don't enjoy typing on them that much.

If you're a person who tends to hit a wrong key every so often while gaming, these will be beneficial in that the high actuation force will help prevent many of those accidental presses.


I like the way webwit put it.

Show Image


http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech_cherry_mx.htm

If your looking for space saving you should wait a bit for the 87-key version since it's out of stock, unless you use the numpad. Though if you are a non-clicker and you fully utilize your keyboard in WoW then the numpad is extra hotkeys that can be placed on there so I guess it isn't bad. Considering your probably going to be hitting many keys are in combination the NKRO model is a must just make sure you have a PS/2 port to allow for nearly everything to go through.

 Not sure when if Majestouch could answer if he checks this that be nice when they come back. Since you did mention EKB don't worry much about the majestouch they are excellent build quality for a keyboard only negative I'd say is the keys and I'm not too picky on the keys to be frank.

If your still unsure do you research, so you don't get buyers remorse.

http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_104key&pid=fkbn104mleb

http://www.overclock.net/8448544-post5.html

All these are videos of the cherry mx black and it's noise level. SS7G uses the same switch the sound is bottoming out with the ring of the metal plate and the spring compressing.


Quote from: Arc'xer;168820
Hmm, I could have misread it. Though when I see or hear rapid fire I usually think tapping and whatnot. All cherry mx switches actuate half-way. Full-travel 4.0mm with actuation 2.0mm, the difference in switches aside from color is the tactility and or noise if desired.

As for the whole macro thing not sure I think it's just silly I used to play MMOs here and there and to be honest I never bothered to make them nor use them even if I did. I always found myself just use 1-0 or whatever etc.etc. or clicking for the most part. Maybe that's my problem or I never played MMOs properly or something. I always click more than keyed well for the most part guess numpad movement/actions/camera with entire keyboard acting as a giant macro board would be best with occasional mouse use here and there.

It's sorta like RTS games after a while you just memorize where everything is and you find it faster and more rewarding using every key with every finger rather than 1-key does all. Plus it gives you a feel of control being able to fully control the character.

Like if we took a keyboard and consider that 97% of it is usable in some way for some action baring Win, Caps, Esc, some Function-keys.) Say 100-keys usable as a base, + modifiers(CTRL, Alt, Shift). In some way shape or form a keyboard all of a sudden becomes a 300-400 key macro board with combination of the modifers or whatnot could be thousands of possible keys. Only problem is remembering where everything is.


Quote from: Nonmouse;168821
You came to Geekhack to ask about keyboards and you think that people are going to roll their eyes?  (Okay, I rolled my eyes at that, but it doesn't count.  Way too recursive.)

You're going to learn more than you ever dreamed of considering to be waaaaaaay more than you ever wanted to know about keyboards, keyswitches and why each one may or may not be the right choice for you.

You will be an informed consumer....


Quote from: Rajagra;168824
WoW tries to avoid frantic key tapping by having a global cooldown, usually 1.5 seconds. When you hit the key for one major command, it works, then you have to wait 1.5s before using another. (This is oversimplified, but go with it.)

In theory this should make for relaxed gameplay. In practice it can go very wrong.

If you wait 1.4 seconds before pressing the 2nd command, the system will say Haha, you hit it too soon, I'm going to ignore you!

If you wait 1.6 seconds the system should say OK, I'm ready, I'll do it. But you've introduced 0.1s of dead time where you've been sat doing nothing. You've cut down your performance by over 5%.

If you hit it at exactly 1.5s, you still can't win, because the Intraweb introduces latency, and the WoW servers have their own lag. So the result can be any of the above at random.

So what people often do is wait for what feels like the right time then hit the button. If it doesn't respond, they then start mashing the key rapidly until it does.

What I mentioned above is just an automated way of doing that. You press the button once, calmly. The action will happen as soon as it possibly can without any fuss on your part. It barely deserves the name macro, it isn't anything sophisticated, and it certainly isn't doing any decision making on your behalf. It's a simple workaround for the technical problems that online games inevitably suffer from.

In fact it's such a good workaround that Blizzard have implemented something along the same lines in the game itself. If you hit the key at 1.45s, they game is *supposed* to say OK, you hit it a bit early, but I will allow it. As soon as the 1.5s is up I will carry out your command.

But their system is far from foolproof. My keyboard mashing macro on the other hand, is rock solid. I stopped using it because Blizzard's improvements were 'good enough'. But I would set up the macros again in a heartbeat if I needed to.


Quote from: elbowglue;168920
If you are sure you want a black cherry spacesaver format consider these:

Filco black cherry with NKRO: http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_87key&pid=fkbn87mleb

Desko POS with black cherries, no NKRO: http://cgi.ebay.com/DESKO-MOS-5023-UP-KEYBOARD-USED-4-AIRPORT-CHECK-IN_W0QQitemZ150354249772QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item2301cfc82c#ht_4909wt_958
(I got the desko for $45 shipped)

Cherry MX11900, no NKRO: http://cgi.ebay.com/Point-of-sale-keyboard-Cherry-Model-MX11900_W0QQitemZ310205771833QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4839b47039#ht_646wt_958
(these were going for $15 dollars shipped previously on ebay for used models)

See my sig for the sizes of these keyboards.

I was doing some typing on a cherry black board...  it's actually not that bad to type on them.  I got 90 words per minute on ten fingers typing test on them, with zero mistakes.  The cherry blacks are so firm it's very hard to make a mistake on them.  Now I wouldn't want to type a *lot* with them my pinkies would probably get tired.


Thanks elbow, in fact i just ordered the  Filco black cherry with NKRO: http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_87key&pid=fkbn87mleb

Offline itlnstln

  • Posts: 7048
Best choice for rapid fire
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 02 April 2010, 13:46:15 »
That post was pretty anti-climactic.


Offline nedaroth

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 4
Best choice for rapid fire
« Reply #11 on: Fri, 02 April 2010, 15:21:10 »
Quote from: itlnstln;168945
That post was pretty anti-climactic.


Oh i ordered the purple wasd keys as well:lol:

Offline kriminal

  • Posts: 424
Best choice for rapid fire
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 02 April 2010, 15:33:46 »
yeah they blacks are totally excellent for gaming, infact they are the BEST for gaming.
Geekhacked Filco FKBN87M/EB modified with Brown, black and blue cherries, doubleshot keycaps
Deck KBA-BL82 with Black cherries
Cherry G84-4100LCMDK-0 Cherry ML switches
Cherry G80-8200hpdus-2 Brown cherries
IBM Lexmark 51G8572 Model M Keyboard
Geekhacked Siig Minitouch KB1948
IBM Model M Mini 1397681