Beta MS Office 2010

[williamjoseph]

As MS office is the flagship of all office publication needs, i was wondering if anyone has beta tested office 2010 yet. From what i experienced is that what would usually be a 3rd party add on appllication for office 07, is now integrated or already included in MS office in 2010 edition such as presenting live video or websights in powerpoint.  Is it worth upgrading or should i wait for maby 2013.......

[Nonmouse]

Wait until 2013, then install the de-bugged Office 2010...

[itlnstln]

The 2010 beta I tried worked pretty well as is; I didn't see any obvious bogs at the time.  I couldn't use it for more than about a week, though, as I got the 64-bit version, and it wasn't playing nicely with a 32-bit Access DB.  The Access DB has a lot of VBA code from Office 2003, and between the VBA compiler version changes and 32/64-bit code differences, it was trying to do stuff I wasn't very comfortable with.  It wasn't a bug or anything, but it's something you might want to be aware of.

I wish they would put out a beta2 or RC or something already, though

[ch_123]

To be honest, if you use MS Access as a database, you deserve whatever misfortune you inevitably get.

[itlnstln]

To be honest, if you use MS Access as a database, you deserve whatever misfortune you inevitably get.

Extactly.  This Access DB is somethhing I inherited when another employee left our department.

[jimsage85]

MS Access as a db seems fairly OK for small businesses with very a simple operational structure. But for large businesses, MS Access can be a real pain..

[itlnstln]

I like to use it for brute force work... like jamming records into a table with complete disregard to the Primary Key or down-and-dirty pulls from disparate sources.  Otherwise, it's SQL Server and Toad for Data Analysts for the win.

[zXWF]

To even buy a MS Office license is to participate in one of the largest fraud among common computer users. OpenOffice.org is a free (as in freedom) office suite that don't cost a dime and I would claim it's just as good as MS Office for any normal usage.

It also includes a database app for those who want it, but I would rather use MySQL/PostgreSQL or one of those "NoSQL" apps.

[ch_123]

To even buy a MS Office license is to participate in one of the largest fraud among common computer users.

Either that, or you end up with an office suite that isn't equivalent to notepad with a 10-15 second startup time.

[itlnstln]

Either that, or you end up with an office suite that isn't equivalent to notepad with a 10-15 second startup time.

This.  Really, I like to get **** done.  In the real world, where people might spend a little money for quality tools, MS Office is king.  OOoOOoOOOOg is just another weak-ass OS substitute for real software.

[kishy]

OOoOOoOOOOg

That's...what...she...said?

[zXWF]

This.  Really, I like to get **** done.  In the real world, where people might spend a little money for quality tools, MS Office is king.  OOoOOoOOOOg is just another weak-ass OS substitute for real software.

OpenOffice.org is a application that actually respect your freedom. An application that doesn't stuff you in the corner and cuff you to one closed proprietary format (Wow, first in 2010 does Microsoft implement Open Document Format in their suite). An application that is for everyone who cares about our freedoms, and not give after Microsoft and their "whole" 3 (:yuck:) licenses. I actually own my version of OpenOffice.org. You just got Microsoft's blessing to use MS Office, now thats weak.

Scenario 1:
If governments were to send out documents in Microsoft-formats, everyone who would want to view them would be required to own a license of Microsoft Office, and if they are out of luck and happen to have a older version that doesn't support their current format - good luck! Let's spend money! This hurts the population and thank god the OpenOffice.org team have been able to reverse engineer that format so freedom-loving people can access it.

Scenario 2:
People in the third world would not be able to open any documents by Microsoft because the general population can't simply afford a MS Office.

Scenario 3:
You 10 years from now you find a old file lying on your harddrive, and by the filename you identify it as an old journal you kept while in high school. The file is in a proprietary format and the company have stopped producing and supporting the format since 10 years ago, something much better have come out. It is not a open format so you can't write a simple little application for reading your file in plain english. You don't have the time, energy nor resources to start debugging, tracing and reverse engineer a old format so you can read your file. No one else cares enough to even try. You never get to read your file.

My friend, real people, in the real world needs real freedoms.

[itlnstln]

You're free to use OpenOffice, I'm free to join the rest of the world using MS Office and get real work done.

People in Scenario 2 don't have computers, anyway, if they do, they just pirate Office.  If Scenario 3 ever happens, you're doing it wrong.  I have never had Office not be able to open a previous version of one of it's own docs.

If you can't get a free (or ridiculously cheap), LEGAL copy of Office, you are also doing it wrong.

[wellington1869]

OpenOffice.org is a application that actually respect your freedom.

bleakgadfly, how old are you? Not an insult, just wondering. I havent seen idealism like this since... for a very long time.

[bitflipper]

Scenario 1:
MS has found a working customer lock-in system. This forces people to upgrade and spend more money on new features they don't need. It puts lots of money in the bank for MS and it's great for the shareholders. I'm not saying this is optimal, but it's the system we have called capitalism. It motivates companies to charge the consumer as much as possible and provide as little as possible. Free market competition benefits the consumer, but what competition does MS really have in the office suite market? They counteract any competition, even the free Open Office product with their customer lock-in system.

Scenario 2:
The third world pirates MS Windows and Office anyway. Or MS sells legitimate licences for $3.00. The third world would rather pirate MS than use freely available software like Linux or Open Office. What does that tell you about the quality of free and/or open source software?

Scenario 3:
MS doesn't care about you old documents, but they have made the effort to keep support for older Office formats. You're responsible for your own stuff. You can convert them to any number of generic or widely supported formats like PDF or TXT. Or you can just keep your old unsupported harware & software around just to read your old documents.

Real people in the real world are not aware enough of their freedoms being limited by commercial software or they're too apathetic to do anything about it. Most people are just addicted to MS products and reject the less polished free alternatives.

The solution is open standards. Yes, for document formats, that's a given. Until we also develop standards for operating system API and driver model, we'll be stuck paying the MS tax.

[wellington1869]

Scenario 1:
MS has found a working customer lock-in system.

wondering what you make of the apple eco system, btw.

The solution is open standards.

so far that doesnt seem to be the case. It appears there needs to be some level of organizing force, in capitalism or democracy anyway. Too much and you have dictatorship, too little and you have anarchy.

[ch_123]

OpenOffice.org is a application that actually respect your freedom. An application that doesn't stuff you in the corner and cuff you to one closed proprietary format (Wow, first in 2010 does Microsoft implement Open Document Format in their suite). An application that is for everyone who cares about our freedoms, and not give after Microsoft and their "whole" 3 (:yuck:) licenses. I actually own my version of OpenOffice.org. You just got Microsoft's blessing to use MS Office, now thats weak.

Despite being a long time Linux user, I never bought into this whole RMS "freetard" rhetoric. Computers are here to serve people, and not the other way around. I like open source software, and I really buy into the advantages of it over closed source, but I will immediately stop buying into it at the point where it interferes with my ability to use my computer to undertake whatever has to be done.

Case in point - OpenOffice. I find that it consistently mangles up other people's .doc and .docx files, and has less features than MS Office. But docx is not a free format you cry! Who cares? It's what everyone uses! If the software cannot deal with the format that everyone uses, the only freedom I get is the freedom to be useless.

Scenario 3:
You 10 years from now you find a old file lying on your harddrive, and by the filename you identify it as an old journal you kept while in high school. The file is in a proprietary format and the company have stopped producing and supporting the format since 10 years ago, something much better have come out. It is not a open format so you can't write a simple little application for reading your file in plain english. You don't have the time, energy nor resources to start debugging, tracing and reverse engineer a old format so you can read your file. No one else cares enough to even try. You never get to read your file.

In this scenario here, this is invalid for two reasons -

1. The ubiquity of MS formats over the past 20+ years means that there's always going to be software that can read it.

2. Open source projects go bust all the time. This perhaps isn't relevant in the case of ODT, but ten years down the line, the old file format x could be replaced by y, and you have no guarantee that the contemporary software will run it. Sure you have the 'freedom' to modify the new software to run the old format, but how many people actually have the skills to do that? I'd imagine very few.

Related to the above, how many people actually read the source code of OSS? How many people actually make modifications to it? To the vast majority of users, the 'freedoms' that FOSS afford is like the freedom to hunt Unicorns from a helicopter with a harpoon - it sounds cool but it's practically unfeasible.

I'm going to take the controversial stance here and say that from a pragmatic and functional perspective, a copy of Open Office affords the average user the same freedom as a pirated copy of MS Office. Everything beyond that is idealism that 99% computer users don't give a toss about.

My friend, real people, in the real world needs real freedoms.

Dunno about the real world you live in, but in mine, people need software to make their computers do useful stuff.

The third world would rather pirate MS than use freely available software like Linux or Open Office. What does that tell you about the quality of free and/or open source software?

I think the problem is not as much quality in an objective sense of the word, but perceived functionality and ease of use, which largely boils down to what people are familiar with - i.e. Microsoft.

I think the FOSS community shoots themselves in the foot by trying to rehash Microsoft's ideas, and a lot of potentially superior solutions are tossed aside in favor of the collective wet dream of making Linux a proper competitor to Windows in the mass market.

But hey, you can usually gauge how much someone knows about Linux by whether they advocate LaTeX over OOo, or vice-versa.

[bitflipper]

wondering what you make of the apple eco system, btw.

Apple's eco system is scary, would be scarier if their market share keeps growing. At this point, it doesn't have the same bite as MS because of Apple's lack of presence in mainstream business.

Non-sheeple can avoid any Apple lock-in. I own an iPod and use iTunes, but I've never purchased anything from the iTunes store or anything with DRM attached to it.

Many Apple sheeple run Windows on their Macs and use MS Office.

so far that doesnt seem to be the case. It appears there needs to be some level of organizing force, in capitalism or democracy anyway. Too much and you have dictatorship, too little and you have anarchy.

I mean somebody (FTC) needed to force MS to use open standards as punishment for their monopolistic transgressions (not just publish some documentation). Yeah, we would need to establish some standards organizations that kept things fair. That's the only way to introduce competition in the OS market. The application and driver arenas are too well established at this point. Apple is proof that if you don't have mainstream drivers & apps, the OS will struggle for 5% market share.

[zXWF]

You're free to use OpenOffice, I'm free to join the rest of the world using MS Office and get real work done.

People in Scenario 2 don't have computers, anyway, if they do, they just pirate Office.  If Scenario 3 ever happens, you're doing it wrong.  I have never had Office not be able to open a previous version of one of it's own docs.

If you can't get a free (or ridiculously cheap), LEGAL copy of Office, you are also doing it wrong.

Too bad that what "the rest of the world" is using should define what you are using, and what your freedoms should be. People in scenario 2 doesn't have computers? This is a stupid thing to say and you know better. There are computers in the third world, and there are active attempts to get more computers into the schools and education institutions in the third world to help them out. Microsoft Office doesn't help them out. They restrict them.

The fact that you haven't had an Office version not being able to open a document from a previous version isn't to say it wont happen. And let's look at it on the bright side, you don't have anything to say or do to make Microsoft change their mind if they suddently choosing to drop it. You are completely without any rights to try and make them implement it, and you can not create something yourself to make it readable.

The "Home & Student" version of Microsoft Office 2007 in Norway is sold at $250 in Norway. For free? Yeah, Microsoft is all about "free". Note also the seperation from "free" and "gratis".

bleakgadfly, how old are you? Not an insult, just wondering. I havent seen idealism like this since... for a very long time.

I am 21, and yes, I have heard that idealism declines by age, but Stallman, Glimore and Perry Barlow would disagree.

Scenario 1:
MS has found a working customer lock-in system. This forces people to upgrade and spend more money on new features they don't need. It puts lots of money in the bank for MS and it's great for the shareholders. I'm not saying this is optimal, but it's the system we have called capitalism. It motivates companies to charge the consumer as much as possible and provide as little as possible. Free market competition benefits the consumer, but what competition does MS really have in the office suite market? They counteract any competition, even the free Open Office product with their customer lock-in system.

Scenario 2:
The third world pirates MS Windows and Office anyway. Or MS sells legitimate licences for $3.00. The third world would rather pirate MS than use freely available software like Linux or Open Office. What does that tell you about the quality of free and/or open source software?

Scenario 3:
MS doesn't care about you old documents, but they have made the effort to keep support for older Office formats. You're responsible for your own stuff. You can convert them to any number of generic or widely supported formats like PDF or TXT. Or you can just keep your old unsupported harware & software around just to read your old documents.

Real people in the real world are not aware enough of their freedoms being limited by commercial software or they're too apathetic to do anything about it. Most people are just addicted to MS products and reject the less polished free alternatives.

The solution is open standards. Yes, for document formats, that's a given. Until we also develop standards for operating system API and driver model, we'll be stuck paying the MS tax.

It is Microsoft, not free (as in freedom) software that is a threat to the free market. And you can't really call software users "consumers" because we don't really "consume" anything. That is what separates computer software from other types of products.

To say the people in the third world are pirating MS Office instead of using OpenOffice.org is first of all an assumption and I have never seen any proof of this. Secondly, if this was the case, could it perhaps be because Microsoft have everyone locked into their system with their formats and standards?

Linux is a field of its own. Due to vendors keeping their drivers to themselves, there may be bad support for drivers. That said, using Ubuntu Linux you should have some pretty bad luck not being able to use it on your computer. Fortunately, more and more vendors are opening up their drivers, especially AMD, ATi and VIA.

People are responsible for their own stuff. PDF-formats are also proprietary (Adobe) but the GNU PDF project have reversed engineered this too. How much easier wouldn't it be if they just had used a open document format? They wouldn't have anything to worry about!

Just as a side question how many of you are Internet Explorer users? I am going to be so bold to assume not too many? How come? Well, I am guessing that it is because of IE's sucky standards and awefull support for totally general website design. When I was designing websites, some javascript code I wrote (AJAX) had to have it's on section just to have IE support. People hate IE because of it's lousy standards, and they would have hated MS Office's standards too if it weren't for their anti-competitive behaviour in that market that blocks all other alternatives.

You are, however, completely correct about people being Microsoft-addicted and are locked in in their own little world refusing to see it otherwise. The Free Software Movement, though, is constantely working towards informing people about free software. I have, myself, converted most of my friends to be GNU/Linux users and all my family is using OpenOffice.org. Someone will problably point out that my family isn't big businesses, but I am just showing that I do my part for contribution to a better world.

I am also selling OpenOffice.org CDs in my store for $3 (they just pay for the CD), but we always explain to people where they can download it and the URL is on the price tag.

wondering what you make of the apple eco system, btw.


so far that doesnt seem to be the case. It appears there needs to be some level of organizing force, in capitalism or democracy anyway. Too much and you have dictatorship, too little and you have anarchy.

I would say that Microsoft's complete monopoly and the newest ruling EU commission proved that Microsoft is leaning more against dictatorship than democracy.

[wellington1869]

Apple's eco system is scary, would be scarier if their market share keeps growing. At this point, it doesn't have the same bite as MS because of Apple's lack of presence in mainstream business.

the consumer market is far, far bigger than the business market.
and apple's share DOES keep growing. THey reported a spectacular 90% increase in earnings yesterday, and they're going to pass MS in market cap shortly. THey dominate the markets that they are in, and they are entering new media markets as we speak.


some data for Apple:

    * U.S. online download music store market share is 87 percent, according to NPD.

    * U.S. teen online download music store usage share is 97 percent, according to Piper Jaffray.

    * Share of U.S. retail PC sales selling above $1,000 is about 80 percent, according to NPD.

    * U.S. retail MP3 player share is around 93 percent, according to NPD.

    * U.S. share of MP3 players among U.S. teens is 86 percent, according to Piper Jaffray.

Numbers of these magnitudes are usually associated with monopolies.

http://blogs.eweek.com/applewatch/content/corporate/is_apple_a_dangerous_monopoly.html

Seems to me you're hedging a little when it comes to apple. MS is old news, its on its way out if anything. It was big bad bear in the 80's maybe.
------------------------------------

more interesting reading:
"One Bad Apple: Apple is looking like what Microsoft was 10 years ago—a Bigfoot that squeezes smaller competitors"
http://www.newsweek.com/id/157545

Just sayin, if you want to rail against monopolies, then lets be fair.  And as for linux and open source, good luck with that.

[bitflipper]

PDF is an open standard now.

Link.

From Wikipedia:

Formerly a proprietary format, PDF was officially released as an open standard on July 1, 2008, and published by the International Organization for Standardization as ISO/IEC 32000-1:2008.

[zXWF]

PDF is an open standard now.

Link.

From Wikipedia:

Thanks for the correction :tea:

[ch_123]

Too bad that what "the rest of the world" is using should define what you are using, and what your freedoms should be.

So, what are you going to do? Email your report to your boss in ODT or the like and say "**** you! I'm FREE!"

Ironically, Office 2010 can read and save to ODT, and the related formats for spreasheets, presentations etc.

To say the people in the third world are pirating MS Office instead of using OpenOffice.org is first of all an assumption and I have never seen any proof of this.

I, for one, have. I think I remember reading recently that 60% of all Windows copies in India are pirated. Because of embargos and differences of copyright laws, most computers in Iran are sold with the equivalent of $5,000 of pirated software. And dear God, don't get me started on China. And the examples continue on and on.

People are responsible for their own stuff. PDF-formats are also proprietary (Adobe) but the GNU PDF project have reversed engineered this too. How much easier wouldn't it be if they just had used a open document format? They wouldn't have anything to worry about!

PDF is an ISO standard, and has been for a while.

Just as a side question how many of you are Internet Explorer users? I am going to be so bold to assume not too many? How come? Well, I am guessing that it is because of IE's sucky standards and awefull support for totally general website design. When I was designing websites, some javascript code I wrote (AJAX) had to have it's on section just to have IE support. People hate IE because of it's lousy standards, and they would have hated MS Office's standards too if it weren't for their anti-competitive behaviour in that market that blocks all other alternatives.

That's because it's badly designed, not due to it being closed source. There are plenty of decent closed source browsers (i.e. Opera) and plenty of dire open source ones (e.g. Konqueror)

[zXWF]

So, what are you going to do? Email your report to your boss in ODT or the like and say "**** you! I'm FREE!"

Ironically, Office 2010 can read and save to ODT, and the related formats for spreasheets, presentations etc.



I, for one, have. I think I remember reading recently that 60% of all Windows copies in India are pirated. Because of embargos and differences of copyright laws, most computers in Iran are sold with the equivalent of $5,000 of pirated software. And dear God, don't get me started on China. And the examples continue on and on.



PDF is an ISO standard, and has been for a while.



That's because it's badly designed, not due to it being closed source. There are plenty of decent closed source browsers (i.e. Opera) and plenty of dire open source ones (e.g. Konqueror)

Send a mail to my "boss"? What on earth are you talking about? Stop acting like a child. I don't have a "boss" in ODT, and selling OpenOffice.org is done by my own choice and no other stores in the chain does that.

Yes, MS Office 2010 have ODF support. Only 5 years after the standard was approved.

Talking about Windows and Office is two different things. People can use Windows because of compatability issues with other applications, and still use OpenOffice.org.

People are choosing not to use IE because... their design suck? By that logic, why are they using Windows? They don't use IE because they do not respect the standards online. They don't use IE because it's constant flow of exploits (actually, one was found just a couple of days ago, its really funny: It turns out a flaw in IE makes its XSS filter system (the one that is supposed to protect the user against XSS attacts) volunerable so it makes website that otherwise wouldn't be exploitable - exploitable).

Google Chrome is free and open software. Dire, right?

Over a 100 million web servers are running the free software webserver Apache HTTP Server. There is a reason why they are not choosing something as unstable and defect as a Microsoft product, IIS. But, that is another topic.

[bitflipper]

the consumer market is far, far bigger than the business market.
and apple's share DOES keep growing. THey reported a spectacular 90% increase in earnings yesterday, and they're going to pass MS in market cap shortly. THey dominate the markets that they are in, and they are entering new media markets as we speak.


some data for Apple:

    * U.S. online download music store market share is 87 percent, according to NPD.

    * U.S. teen online download music store usage share is 97 percent, according to Piper Jaffray.

    * Share of U.S. retail PC sales selling above $1,000 is about 80 percent, according to NPD.

    * U.S. retail MP3 player share is around 93 percent, according to NPD.

    * U.S. share of MP3 players among U.S. teens is 86 percent, according to Piper Jaffray.

Numbers of these magnitudes are usually associated with monopolies.

http://blogs.eweek.com/applewatch/content/corporate/is_apple_a_dangerous_monopoly.html

Seems to me you're hedging a little when it comes to apple. MS is old news, its on its way out if anything. It was big bad bear in the 80's maybe.
------------------------------------

more interesting reading:
"One Bad Apple: Apple is looking like what Microsoft was 10 years ago—a Bigfoot that squeezes smaller competitors"
http://www.newsweek.com/id/157545

Just sayin, if you want to rail against monopolies, then lets be fair.  And as for linux and open source, good luck with that.

It's the lock-in that I have a problem with. MS has .doc, .xls, os API, and driver model. I think those are major things to control.

Apple may have a certain cool factor and in some cases provides a better product or service, but I don't see any lock-in. You have the choice of hundreds of players that can play .mp3s. You can purchase .mp3s from Amazon or purchase CDs and rip them. You can purchase high-end computers from HP, Dell, Sony, Toshiba, Lenovo, Acer, etc.

[zXWF]

Don't forget Intel.  The bastards.  EU and the FTC.

I have not forgotten Intel

I am using a Lemote YeeLoong netbook that have a Loongson processor. It is running a MIPS-compatible architecture based on RISC ISA The development is in the early stages so it doesn't boost more than a little over 1Ghz, but in 10 years or so they will problably be able to reach Intel/AMD worth taking a peak at if you are considering getting yourself a new computer!

[zXWF]

It's the lock-in that I have a problem with. MS has .doc, .xls, os API, and driver model. I think those are major things to control.

Apple may have a certain cool factor and in some cases provides a better product or service, but I don't see any lock-in. You have the choice of hundreds of players that can play .mp3s. You can purchase .mp3s from Amazon or purchase CDs and rip them. You can purchase high-end computers from HP, Dell, Sony, Toshiba, Lenovo, Acer, etc.

the MP3-format is actually a patented format and Microsoft had to pay over 1.5 Billion dollars in a patent infringment case because of their use of it. It is a bit ironical I always suggest people sticking to the Ogg/Vorbis format. Free Software Foundation Europe recently awarded one German and one Austrian radio station for their use of the Ogg format when streaming online!

[ch_123]

Send a mail to my "boss"? What on earth are you talking about? Stop acting like a child. I don't have a "boss" in ODT, and selling OpenOffice.org is done by my own choice and no other stores in the chain does that.

You're missing the point - Itlnstn and others made the point that MS Office is the most useful simply because everyone uses it. If you get a file from people, they're likely to be sending it in MS Office format. If you're sending one on, the recipient will be wanting to receive it in MS Office format. Your insinuation that people are "telling you what to use" is largely missing the point... Office suites exist is to let you edit and create files. In many cases, people who use them need to edit other people's files and send them on to other people, so those dastardly other people are a huge consideration in what you use. Again, there's no point in getting high and mighty over something that is just a tool that serves a certain end.

People are choosing not to use IE because... their design suck? By that logic, why are they using Windows?

Notice how much of a failure Vista was? And if you're going to go down the "All Window versions suck and all Linux versions are inherently better", please don't waste your time.

They don't use IE because they do not respect the standards online. They don't use IE because it's constant flow of exploits (actually, one was found just a couple of days ago, its really funny: It turns out a flaw in IE makes its XSS filter system (the one that is supposed to protect the user against XSS attacts) volunerable so it makes website that otherwise wouldn't be exploitable - exploitable).

So you're saying that people don't avoid IE because it's design sucks, and then you say that they avoid it because it's design sucks?

Google Chrome is free and open software. Dire, right?

The point here is what?

but in 10 years or so they will problably be able to reach Intel/AMD

And in 10 years or so, Intel and AMD will be 10 years ahead still. Oh, don't get me wrong, I hate x86 too, but what can you do...

[wellington1869]

Apple may have a certain cool factor and in some cases provides a better product or service, but I don't see any lock-in.

this is either willful or ignorance; apple's entire business model, if you hadnt noticed, is based on lock-in. It sounds more and more like an anti-MS rant at this point.  Google "apple" and "censorship" to begin to see the extent of it.  The kind of vertical integration that MS could only dream about.

[zXWF]

You're missing the point - Itlnstn and others made the point that MS Office is the most useful simply because everyone uses it. If you get a file from people, they're likely to be sending it in MS Office format. If you're sending one on, the recipient will be wanting to receive it in MS Office format. Your insinuation that people are "telling you what to use" is largely missing the point... Office suites exist is to let you edit and create files. In many cases, people who use them need to edit other people's files and send them on to other people, so those dastardly other people are a huge consideration in what you use.



Notice how much of a failure Vista was? And if you're going to go down the "All Window versions suck and all Linux versions are inherently better", please don't waste your time.



So you're saying that people don't avoid IE because it's design sucks, they avoid it because it's design sucks?



The point here is what?



And in 10 years or so, Intel and AMD will be 10 years ahead still. Oh, don't get me wrong, I hate x86 too, but what can you do...

No no, don't get me wrong. I am, not now and problably never, saying that Linux is inherently better than Windows. Both have their strength and weaknesses. Windows have alot of viruses and exploits and it is closed source, but it is easy to use and you have drivers and apps to most stuff. Linux is extremely secure, since its open and free there are few exploits, it is fast and it works on almost any platform!

I think you are missing the point about design. When it was stated "design" I interpreted as the aesthetics, not the internal structure and function of the program.

If you are sending me a file in Microsoft Office format, I will deny it, if you ask why, I will tell you why, if you choose to see the rationale in it, you will save it as ODF (If you have paid the price for a new Office suite) and mail it to me again, if you are ignorant, careless and do not wish to share the file, then keep it to yourself.

It is pessimistic to think that Intel and AMD will be as far ahead as they are now in 10 years. People problably though that about IBM too and you saw how that worked out. The same as Apple 10 years ago and now. There are tons of comparisons in history that prove you wrong.

[itlnstln]

The other thing that is getting missed (unless I missed it earlier) is the support infrastructure.  Big companies want solid support*.  Most OSS companies can't offer that.

*I don't want to derail into the definition or opinions of this, but I guarantee that MS's support is better and more robust than OpenOffice.

Although I am using Firefox right now, between IE, Firefox, and Chrome, I think IE has the best feature set in its default configuration (i.e. no add-ons).  Personally, I think IE is the easiest browser to use.  That said, Firefox (since 3.6) and Chrome are faster.

[zXWF]

The other thing that is getting missed (unless I missed it earlier) is the support infrastructure.  Big companies want solid support*.  Most OSS companies can't offer that.

*I don't want to derail into the definition or opinions of this, but I guarantee that MS's support is better and more robust than OpenOffice.

Although I am using Firefox right now, between IE, Firefox, and Chrome, I think IE has the best feature set in its default configuration (i.e. no add-ons).  Personally, I think IE is the easiest browser to use.  That said, Firefox (since 3.6) and Chrome are faster.

In 2009 Red Hat had a revenue of 652 million dollars. Red Hat is a open source software company. Support and service is what they are making money at.

I disagree with your claim on OpenOffice.org, though. With Microsoft you usually just get some help pages trying to explain in general what has gone wrong and how to fix it. OpenOffice.org has a whole global community of volunteers and users willing to help. In Norway we have the "SkoleLinux" project. Skole means "school" in Norwegian. Schools that choose to use SkoleLinux do not pay anything for the operating system nor OpenOffice and the other free and open source applications that follows - they do pay for the service and support however. And it is the same setup that Red Hat is running with their own products.

EDIT: To adress the internet browser issues:
Chrome is definitely easier to use then IE, but this could be seen as a personal view and nothing definite. The security flaws in IE should make every user stay away from it. You would't lick a toilet seat.

[ch_123]

I think you are missing the point about design. When it was stated "design" I interpreted as the aesthetics, not the internal structure and function of the program.

When I said design, it meant it's internals.

If you are sending me a file in Microsoft Office format, I will deny it, if you ask why, I will tell you why, if you choose to see the rationale in it, you will save it as ODF (If you have paid the price for a new Office suite) and mail it to me again, if you are ignorant, careless and do not wish to share the file, then keep it to yourself.

Where I come from, people wouldn't take to that kindly, and I'd be inclined to agree with them...

It is pessimistic to think that Intel and AMD will be as far ahead as they are now in 10 years. People problably though that about IBM too and you saw how that worked out. The same as Apple 10 years ago and now. There are tons of comparisons in history that prove you wrong.

The only thing likely to dislodge x86 is ARM. x86 beat out a huge load of far superior designs - 68k, Alpha, MIPS, PA-RISC simply because ****loads of investment was sank into x86 and not as much into it's competitors. ARM has the chance to out do x86 because of the increasing trend towards netbooks/smartbooks/smartphones/pads/pods etc etc.

IBM? Well, they didn't take the microchip technology seriously. Intel was there at the right place at the right time. The odds that we're going to see a completely new disruptive technology like the microchip in the next decade is pretty minimal.

[itlnstln]

Tell that to a company deploying an install or updates across a corporate network.  I'm sure "hit the forums, bro" is going to fly real well with a C*O.

[zXWF]

When I said design, it meant it's internals.



Where I come from, people wouldn't take to that kindly, and I'd be inclined to agree with them...



The only thing likely to dislodge x86 is ARM. x86 beat out a huge load of far superior designs - 68k, Alpha, MIPS, PA-RISC simply because ****loads of investment was sank into x86 and not as much into it's competitors. ARM has the chance to out do x86 because of the increasing trend towards netbooks/smartbooks/smartphones/pads/pods etc etc.

IBM? Well, they didn't take the microchip technology seriously. Intel was there at the right place at the right time. The odds that we're going to see a completely new disruptive technology like the microchip in the next decade is pretty minimal.

They wouldn't take it kindly? If it's asked politely, there should be no reason why they wouldn't take it kindly.

I do not think we will get a new disruptive technology, just a new competing one. One that has something new to offer.

[itlnstln]

Before I sign off on this topic, let me just say that OpenOffice sucks; I don't give a damn if it's free.  It's still a POS.  Firefox and Chrome can be better than IE, but OO can't hold a candle to MS Office, especially for power users like myself.  Thanks, and good night, now.

[zXWF]

Before I sign off on this topic, let me just say that OpenOffice sucks; I don't give a damn if it's free.  It's still a POS.  Firefox and Chrome can be better than IE, but OO can't hold a candle to MS Office, especially for power users like myself.  Thanks, and good night, now.

Very mature.

OpenOffice, Firefox/Chrome, Apache HTTP Server, Thunderbird, GNU/Linux
All more secure and efficient than their proprietary equivalents

Good night, now.

[wellington1869]

Before I sign off on this topic, let me just say that OpenOffice sucks;

seconding; i found OO hugely bloated and fairly buggy; a recent thread i saw at ask.metafilter was filled with similar complaints.

[ch_123]

OpenOffice, Firefox/Chrome, Apache HTTP Server, Thunderbird, GNU/Linux
All more secure and efficient than their proprietary equivalents

Good night, now.

Some FOSS software is better than it's proprietary equivalent. Hell, a lot of FOSS software is better than it's proprietary equivalent. Doesn't mean that they all are.

And why is that so many grizzled sys admins seem to prefer propietary UNIX and mainframe OSes over Linux?

[wellington1869]

And why is that so many grizzled sys admins seem to prefer propietary UNIX and mainframe OSes over Linux?

i'd say its because they're not 21 year old idealistic college students but maybe i'm just getting old.

I do know that the more responsibility they give me at work, the more money and time matter in the work I do, the more I've leaned towards propriety systems with excellent support structures - and paid for it happily, and i mean happily. I'm like, here's my wallet, please take what you need, and thank you, thank you for a product that is supported and does the job.

Nothing is more annoying, and causes more fear and heartache, than random systems that work randomly even if they're free.  Open source is great for the geek crowd to experiment with and develop ideas out of, but the business world will always need accountable structures behind products.

[bitflipper]

this is either willful or ignorance; apple's entire business model, if you hadnt noticed, is based on lock-in. It sounds more and more like an anti-MS rant at this point.  Google "apple" and "censorship" to begin to see the extent of it.

I'm more pro-competition in the marketplace than anti-MS or anti-Apple or anti-IBM. I'm critical of all including raw, unregulated capitalism itself.

I plead ignorance of Apple products & services. I hate it when I talk to an Apple consumer and throw around terms like router, cable modem, wifi and they tell me about something called Airport Extreme. I still don't know what that is. Does it do port forwarding? They say "I dunno, I just plug it in and it does everything I need." Umm, ok, good luck with that.

Perhaps there's censorship with Apple's application store, but you can easily choose not to spend the $500-$800 for an iPad. Just don't buy into it. That's easier to do than to stop using the .doc format.

[zXWF]

Ironic.



Some FOSS software is better than it's proprietary equivalent. Hell, a lot of FOSS software is better than it's proprietary equivalent. Doesn't mean that they all are.

And why is that so many grizzled sys admins seem to prefer propietary UNIX and mainframe OSes over Linux?

Not ironic at all. I am not saying the other apps are a piece of **** or "sucks". I am just saying that the FOSS ones are more secure and efficient. I cannot really see the irony in that, do you? In the bottom line, it's all about preferences

I do not know where you get your statistics, but in 2008, over 60% of the web servers ran operating systems with the Linux kernel. The only other UNIX operating system I know currently "favored" by some sysadmins is Solaris, and some choose BSD-based.

[ch_123]

I later removed the ironic thing because I initially didn't see the context you made it in.

I do not know where you get your statistics, but in 2008, over 60% of the web servers ran operating systems with the Linux kernel. The only other UNIX operating system I know currently "favored" by some sysadmins is Solaris, and some choose BSD-based.

And 90% of the desktop market is commanded by Windows. Sometimes the best thing isn't the most popular.

[zXWF]

i'd say its because they're not 21 year old idealistic college students but maybe i'm just getting old..

If it is me you are referring to, as it seems like you are, then note that I am not a college student, or a student at all. I am responsible for day-to-day operations at a local Staples chapter.

[kishy]

Before I sign off on this topic, let me just say that OpenOffice sucks; I don't give a damn if it's free.  It's still a POS.  Firefox and Chrome can be better than IE, but OO can't hold a candle to MS Office, especially for power users like myself.  Thanks, and good night, now.

Looks like I'm "thirding" this.

[bitflipper]

Before I sign off on this topic, let me just say that OpenOffice sucks; I don't give a damn if it's free.  It's still a POS.  Firefox and Chrome can be better than IE, but OO can't hold a candle to MS Office, especially for power users like myself.  Thanks, and good night, now.

LOL, so much for debating the facts. It sucks and I'm outta here. ;-)

It might not be the first choice of a "power user", but it probably does 99% of what most ordinary people need it to do.

[Rajagra]

I like the way this thread was derailed without actually going off-topic! :smile:

Open Office is great as a MS Office viewer, or for doing simple tasks. But it IS less slick than MS Office*, and for professional use it IS a liablility to be using anything other than the widely accepted standard. If you can't see that ease of cooperative work is a high priority in business, then you haven't worked in a firm of any real size, or you've been lucky enough to work in relative isolation.

* Take for example something basic, dragging a cell to a different place in the spreadsheet. In MS office you just drag it by the edge. In Open Office you can't! You have to use the mouse to select several cells, then move the mouse back so only that one cell is selected. Only then can you do the dragging. That's just plain annoying. It was pure luck that I even worked out how to achieve this basic task. I couldn't find anything in the provided help explaining how to do it!

I don't think MS Office would be available so cheaply now if it wasn't for Open Office, so we can be grateful for that. I'm not bashing OO, it is a great free package and it's all I have at home at the moment. But accept it for what it is.

[bitflipper]

I like the way this thread was derailed without actually going off-topic! :smile:

Open Office is great as a MS Office viewer, or for doing simple tasks. But it IS less slick than MS Office*, and for professional use it IS a liablility to be using anything other than the widely accepted standard. If you can't see that ease of cooperative work is a high priority in business, then you haven't worked in a firm of any real size, or you've been lucky enough to work in relative isolation.

* Take for example something basic, dragging a cell to a different place in the spreadsheet. In MS office you just drag it by the edge. In Open Office you can't! You have to use the mouse to select several cells, then move the mouse back so only that one cell is selected. Only then can you do the dragging. That's just plain annoying. It was pure luck that I even worked out how to achieve this basic task. I couldn't find anything in the provided help explaining how to do it!

I don't think MS Office would be available so cheaply now if it wasn't for Open Office, so we can be grateful for that. I'm not bashing OO, it is a great free package and it's all I have at home at the moment. But accept it for what it is.

I think we agree here, but I was referring to the average home users needs could be satisfied with OO instead of shelling out for MS Office. Think of a family with mom, dad and 2.2 kids. It gets expensive.

Yes, I've worked for large corporations where collaboration on documents is a way of life. I wouldn't put OO in that kind of environment. Maybe for a small startup < 50 employees.

I've used OO since it was Star Office. I prefer MS Office for most tasks, but at times I just don't want to spend the money, fall back to OO, and it meets most of my needs for my personal documents & spreadsheets.

[Rajagra]

For extra points who is the famous guy NEXT to Robin Williams.

Don't be like me and think he's Christopher Reeve. IT'S A TRAP!

I wondered if anyone would get the song reference, I couldn't quite fit the full clue above it.

I'm going to be real happy when my geekhack keys arrive. :smile:

[kishy]

Hey, at least it's good for something