Help! Need a similar keyboard!

[itlnstln]

For most people around here, how long a keyboard lasts is a non-issue.  More than likely, you're going to buy another keyboard long before your current one wears out.

[itlnstln]

Speaking of cheaping-down materials, why do the premium boards like Filco et al use plastic housings?

You're buying the wrong Filco:

[wellington1869]

And why are there so many songs about rainbows?

>

[ch_123]

Speaking of cheaping-down materials, why do the premium boards like Filco et al use plastic housings?

When was the last time you saw a metal keyboard that wasn't a gimmicky special edition? Even Beam Spring keyboards used plastic housings.

Also are there any new boards that use cherry white/clears other than the Deck (which uses them I think)? I'm still in my learning process concerning what I like, and oddly I think I like the firmness of the cherry blacks, but they're just a bit too firm. And why are there so many songs about rainbows?

Not really, Cherry is discontinuing their manufacture afaik... nowhere else seems to be able to get them.

I think one thing thats interesting here is the possibility that topres actually functionally only last 10 mill. Again I hasten to add that in my view 10 mill is plenty. But if thats the case, thats info that is probably worth inserting into the topre wiki, for reference, where we have saved all other aspects of specs for these keyboards.

Or it could all be nonsense... Let's not get too randy just yet.

[ch_123]

[Smug grin on face]

A cookie to whoever spots what happened here.

[Otterclock]

When was the last time you saw a metal keyboard that wasn't a gimmicky special edition?

Exactly. Is a metal housing only worthwhile as a gimmick? Maybe. I can see how good quality plastic would even be preferable, really. Is the metal housing of old IBMs a cherished quality, or would model M appreciators not care one way or the other if it were plastic.

Not really, Cherry is discontinuing their manufacture afaik... nowhere else seems to be able to get them.

The MX8100 MAY come with Cherry Clears. Not sure the secret decoder ring here.

okie dokes.

[ch_123]

Exactly. Is a metal housing only worthwhile as a gimmick? Maybe. I can see how good quality plastic would even be preferable, really. Is the metal housing of old IBMs a cherished quality, or would model M appreciators not care one way or the other if it were plastic.

Model Ms don't have a metal housing... It's made of PC.

[wellington1869]

mystery solved --- topre does last 30 mill.  (Topre lovers breathe a sigh of relief!)

The mystery was solved on GH itself --- we've got to find new things to talk about

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=5832&page=3 (scroll down to post #40).

Which doesnt really change much; keytronics is still warrantied for 30 mill, which is still way more than most people will ever use before getting bored with it or spilling something on it. (or not being able to connect it to their PC because the connector has changed when the PC was upgraded - this happens every 10 years too).  

But ultimately the debate about 'how long is enough' will never end cuz its also just a subjective question of value for the money, which each of us answers for ourselves. From that same thread:

At work, there are some rubber domes which are still being used even after more than eight years. My colleague is still using the first Microsoft Natural keyboard. He has been using the same keyboard before I started on my present job (8 years).

VERSUS

Can you name another piece of office equipment that is just as functional 25 years later?

For my part, if I use a keyboard for 8 years without swapping it out, someone shoot me.  But thats me

[keyb_gr]

"Rubber" dome sheets are actually silicone sheets, normally at least. I'm not an expert on silicone, but it seems like there is a good bit of variety among this kind of polymer. That, and I'd expect longevity to decrease with lower force since the material will have to be thinner.

As far as housings go, plastic gives much more freedom WRT shapes. The next fancier alternative would be Al die cast cases, but something tells me they'd weigh a ton...

[wellington1869]

ah, ch123's link shows exactly that Nice find, ch.

The answer is on page 3 there.
 
p.s., I like chocolate chip  You can mail it to me : )

[ch_123]

But ultimately the debate about 'how long is enough' will never end cuz its also just a subjective question of value for the money, which each of us answers for ourselves. From that same thread:

I think you might be trying a bit too hard at this stage...

[wellington1869]

This calls for a Rainbow video:

>

[wellington1869]

and actually, if topre themselves are saying that membranes last 10 mill, they're basically saying membranes last an amazingly long time  Esp for the money.

[kishy]

I think the implication is that the spring - far more resilient than rubber - enhances the durability of the otherwise incompetent domes.

[ch_123]

Most rubber dome keyboards start to become dodgy long before they stop working. Even my Thinkpad's keyboard, which is one of the finest laptop keyboards I've used has intermittent issues where you sometimes hit a key twice to get it working - these issues started appearing when the laptop was about a year old. Because of the Topre's far superior contact system, I doubt you're as likely to see that issue.

Of course, it works both ways... Model Ms become unpleasant to type on long before they stop working due to spring wear and rivet issues. Then again. they'll probably still work fine anyway.

[Otterclock]

One of my favorite boards, my current, is the Gateway KB-2961. Metal backplate, sculpted keys, shaped kinda like a Filco. They come with Gateway education packages (and when you buy a couple hundred computers they give you a bunch of extra boards). It has a certain something I can't figure out, but I love it. I have a stack of them, new in box. Things last a darn long time, actually, but if something happens, I just pop open a new box and boom, fresh new keyboard smell. Spill a drink? Pop open a new one. Anger issues? Pop open a new one.

[wellington1869]

i'm looking forward to the ms desktop 7000 I ordered. I actually have no doubt it'll last 8 years. Easily.  If i choose to keep it that long, which i probably wont.

We've had these dell d750's at work for 2 or 3 years now and they're perfectly fine. Even the lettering is fine on them so far, even with daily all-day use in the college's admin departments.  They'll prolly be dumped when the computers are updated, which is a pity.

And so far this is the dome board which I discovered at work for which i'd use the word 'spectacular' to describe it: Dell wireless keyboard bundle.   It was a real joy to use. Could type on it all day. I think it even looks fantastic. If that damn spacebar wasnt too long for me i'd use it for a couple of years at least.  Totally different feel from any other dome board i've ever used. Very positive action, lots of feedback with a slight click too. You can find it for half price shipped on ebay.

[Otterclock]

We've had these dell d750's at work for 2 or 3 years now and they're perfectly fine.

Our d720's are still working fine in classrooms, and most of them are attached to their third or fourth computer. I'm not even sure how old they are. Seven years maybe. Some of them have squeaky keys, though.

[Rajagra]

After hearing so many good things about the layout of the Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000, I had to try one out. I just bought one cheap off ebay. ("Unknown language" kept the price down, it turned out to be Danish.)
 I'm mostly impressed. Chloe's review is accurate, though all the keys work properly on mine. This is a nice keyboard for anyone willing to sacrifice the desk space for it. The traditional keys are in the normal layout (other than the ergo shift, obviously.) The non-standard extra keys are out of the way and even manage to look inoffensive.

The ergo split and gentle rise in the middle are very comfortable for me (broad shoulders, big hands.) It feels as good as any other dome keyboard I've used. [strike]I would recommend it to anyone who hasn't been spoiled by mechanical switches and wants to stick with domes.[/strike]

The only flaw is the spacebar. It is reluctant to move if you hit it at the edge. And it is much louder than the other keys. Overall I'd say the sound is more intrusive than a blue Cherry or buckling spring board, purely because of the space bar. The tragic thing is it would be more likely to be accepted in a shared environment, because although it is loud it would be considered "normal."

I'll have to look up that guide for fixing the spacebar, maybe it can be made quieter as well as smoother.

EDIT> After some use I've decided the spacebar is unacceptably bad. See later post in this thread.

[wellington1869]

The only flaw is the spacebar. It is reluctant to move if you hit it at the edge. And it is much louder than the other keys. Overall I'd say the sound is more intrusive than a blue Cherry or buckling spring board, purely because of the space bar. The tragic thing is it would be more likely to be accepted in a shared environment, because although it is loud it would be considered "normal."

I'll have to look up that guide for fixing the spacebar, maybe it can be made quieter as well as smoother.

Similar complaints about the spacebar being loud on the ms 7000 model too; this dude at amazon fixed it thusly:

My only complaint, like many others, is that the Space Bar was very loud. It had a completely different sound and feel than all the other keys. I solved this problem quite easily; I'm surprised a similar solution isn't included in the design. I removed the Space Bar key. There are two straight wire springs under the key, each having a 90-degree bend at the end. The bent ends fit under tabs on the keyboard base. The noise results from the springs contacting the tabs as the key is depressed. I cut two slivers of packing foam and inserted one under each tab before re-installing the key. Not only does it sound better - it also feels better.

Mine hasnt arrived yet; it'll be my first curved/angled model board too. And yea, it does take up a lot of room on the desktop, but in the case of the 7000 it doesnt look bad at least.  

Also when I tried the MS boards at the store, the different models feel different (7000's seem more crisp and with shorter throws, to me). Tho i have friends who have the 4000 and love it too.

[ch_123]

That's not an ergonomic keyboard. Once they found out that true ergonomic keyboards don't sell, this cowardly design came out, aimed at lazy people who like "ergonomic" splashed out over the box, but don't like to use an ergonomic keyboard because doing that is actually too much trouble. Marketing ergonomics. Most stuff is like that today. But it is designed not to alienate people and thus paradoxically not to be ergonomic.

But MAYBE people want a cheap keyboard that costs a lot of money because it's ergonomic except it's not really ergonomic?

[Rajagra]

That's not an ergonomic keyboard. Once they found out that true ergonomic keyboards don't sell, this cowardly design came out, aimed at lazy people who like "ergonomic" splashed out over the box, but don't like to use an ergonomic keyboard because doing that is actually too much trouble. Marketing ergonomics. Most stuff is like that today. But it is designed not to alienate people and thus paradoxically not to be ergonomic.

By a similar argument, car seat belts are of a cowardly design because they aren't full body harnesses. Sometimes a compromise is reasonable.

Ergonomic is whatever works for you. I found this MS board comfortable, an improvement over a standard design. Chloe found it uncomfortable. YMMV as they say.

[kishy]

I suppose, depending on context and who you're talking to, ergonomics (that being the study and practice of attempting to do something ultimately better for your posture and health while using x device) can include just "doing it differently from usual" without being misleading.

As a matter of my own opinion, I think split keyboards are dumb, and I find the angle my hands approach them is far less comfortable than on a typical, non-split fullsize keyboard. Considering I don't touch type**, this should be understandable...so then, for someone like myself, any keyboard that puts a separation in the middle, angled or otherwise, is less ergonomic when combined with my typing method.

**: I do actually touch type in the sense that the majority of what I type is typed without looking at the keyboard...however I type almost exclusively with my index and middle fingers, with thumb (usually left only) for space, and left pinky for modifiers with left index for whatever is being modified. As a result of this the rest of my fingers do not need to be in line with home row so my hands can lay in a more natural angle (similar, though not the same as what a split keyboard provides), meaning that a non-split is just as good in my case...combine this with the fact that several keys are hit by whichever hand I feel like at the moment (the whole "which hand do you use to press 5 or 6" thing: whichever hand is still closer from the last keystroke) and a split is counterproductive.

On occasion I'll switch it up and use my right thumb for left modifiers and then right pinky for the modified key, but that's less common.

[itlnstln]

I get shiny keys but as far as I can tell my Cherry Blue  keyboards have gotten a tad smoother comparing a Filco NIB "spare" and a well used one.

I noticed this on my last Filco.  Fresh out of the box, the switches were a little frictiony, but after about a week or two of use, they were smooth as butter.  I didn't have that "issue" with either of my Cherry 'boards.  I wonder what makes the Filco different.  Could it be that some of the spray-on keycap coating gets into the switch, and it wears away over time?*

*This is going off the information provided by Brian explaining that the keycaps are coated after they are mounted on the switches.

[microsoft windows]

If you want a good rubber dome keyboard with a very light touch, get one of these. These are the good Dell Quiet Key's from circa 1995 with the dome sliders.

[Otterclock]

Randomly ran across this pic.

Show Image

From a Das review.

Total cost for the gaming boards in that chart seems closer to $350, but still, funny. Frills gaming boards are a ripoff. Comparing it to the Das may not have been a good idea, though, since that chart should also show the purchase of a previous Das that needed to be replaced with one that wasn't a "nightmare troubleshooting ordeal", to echo customer reviews illustrating that quality switch does not equal quality keyboard.

[ch_123]

Good thing they have a good returns system... I wonder if Shmeytronic's warranty covers that...

[wellington1869]

got my ms 7000. I like it, crisp and short throws for a dome board. spacebar clicks loudly, might put a piece of velcro under it. other than that its nice, very heavy board, and with a neat removeable height-adjustment system that can be relocated to the front of the board (for so-called negative-slope). Full review sometime next week I guess.

[Arc'xer]

I noticed this on my last Filco.  Fresh out of the box, the switches were a little frictiony, but after about a week or two of use, they were smooth as butter.  I didn't have that "issue" with either of my Cherry 'boards.  I wonder what makes the Filco different.  Could it be that some of the spray-on keycap coating gets into the switch, and it wears away over time?*

*This is going off the information provided by Brian explaining that the keycaps are coated after they are mounted on the switches.

I have three theories on these, might be a bit silly but whatever.

1) Either the switches are hardly used except for testing that they remain in their stationary position for so long the metal stays put. Sorta like a car or truck engine, it's meant to be run at least once or twice per month for a few minutes.

2) Same as above metal stays put. Except that it reacts to the temperature so it expands and or contracts due to minor variations.

and finally

3) Like #2 except instead of temperature it's the atmospheric pressure differences and or moisture from Asian territories to U.S. territories.

[Zalusithix]

That's not an ergonomic keyboard. Once they found out that true ergonomic keyboards don't sell, this cowardly design came out, aimed at lazy people who like "ergonomic" splashed out over the box, but don't like to use an ergonomic keyboard because doing that is actually too much trouble. Marketing ergonomics. Most stuff is like that today. But it is designed not to alienate people and thus paradoxically not to be ergonomic.

To be fair, the MS Natural 4000 is the most ergonomic keyboard currently mass-produced by a major manufacturer. The rest of Logitech/Microsoft's "ergonomic" keyboards are nothing more than wave types. Why they even make those dumbed down hybrids is beyond me. They're like a 5% deviation from the standard design... Just enough to make typing on them require adjustments from a standard keyboard, but not enough of an adjustment to have any impact whatsoever ergonomically speaking. It's like change for change's sake.

Also, the MS Natural is what I refer to as the gateway keyboard. It's close enough to a standard keyboard that I can get people to actually try one, but far enough removed that they realize they can adapt to something different. Once they try it and get used to it (and usually prefer it to a standard dome keybord), they're more willing to to look at the more unconventional keyboards out there. Usually at that point, it's more the price that's an inhibitor than the design...

[Rajagra]

Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000...
I would recommend it to anyone who hasn't been spoiled by mechanical switches and wants to stick with domes.

I have to take that back. I tried typing on it for a while and the space bar ruins it. I popped it off and added more lube (white lithium grease) but it didn't help. The space bar binds where I normally hit it, not just if I push the ends to test it. The more you type on it the more annoying it gets.

I discovered one thing. If you rest your thumb on the bezel in front of the space bar you can slide it over the bar instead of pressing it normally. That works well. Maybe that's what MS expects you to do? Trouble is, it would take ages to learn to do that, and if you ever use a different keyboard you'll get messed up and have to change method.

It says a lot about the state of the market that MS can make a board with such an obvious flaw and not bother making any attempt to fix it. Public expectations of keyboards are so low they can get away with it.

It's a shame, as I really like it apart from this problem. Maybe it loosens up with use, but I'm not going to find out. I already have other boards that work properly.

[Zalusithix]

From my experience, it did loosen up over time. Not that I had a huge problem with it when it was new, but now it has pretty much exactly the same resistance as every other key. I mean I can get it to somewhat jam if I mash it hard at an angle, but that's hardly a real world situation.

That said, I cringe every time I use the board these days. It's hard to return to crappy dome boards after you've been spoiled with real switches. Every key feels like mush...

[wellington1869]

I'm taking this opportunity to buy a manfrotto magic arm before i take pics for the ms 7000 review As good a reason to splurge on some photography gear as any.  So review is delayed a week or two

My spacebar clicks but doesnt seem to have any binding issues. In fact the click itself hasnt bothered me yet, I'm actually enjoying it for now. I'll put some velcro under it if it bothers me at some point. The other keys are very silent.

Nice to type on, if you ask me. Nice response, like a high quality laptop keyboard, but more luxurious.

[Zalusithix]

As far as rubber domes go, the 4k isn't bad. I don't remember having any complaints when I first got it. It felt a bit stiff compared to my original MS Natural board, but given the age of the prior board, that's not too surprising.

I'm don't I agree with the laptop comment though. I don't find the board at all like my Thinkpad's. There's a big difference between the snappy low throw scissor switch on the Thinkpad and the keys on the 4k. At this point, I'd take my Thinkpad's switch feel any day, but that's probably because it feels closer in tactile response to the Cherries (though obviously still quite different).

Not that it really matters, since it was the layout that appealed to me in the first place. Key switches played second fiddle to the design - which I found more comfortable to use for extended periods than any other keyboard I had tried, including the original MS Natural. It's practically sacrilege here, but IMO, key layout is more important than switch type. I'd sooner return to the dome laden 4k than switch back to a straight keyboard loaded with the best mechanical switches known to man.

[wellington1869]

the 4000 isnt like a laptop board at all, but the 7000 is closer to it. Both 7000 boards (the media "entertainment desktop" board and the normal "laser desktop" board) in the 7000 series from ms have much shallower keystrokes than the previous models (6000,4000,3000,etc).

the 7000 actually does remind me of a lenovo keyboard, just slightly deeper throw. Somewhere between thinkpad and normal throw.

[hyperlinked]

Show Image

I really liked the Zoom Jog in the middle and the dedicated back and forward buttons on that board for the short period of time that I owned it. These split keyboards are awful if you're doing a lot of Photoshopping and visual design work. I kept having to "wing" my left arm to keep my fingers on the shortcut keys I needed.

I don't remember having any spacebar issues. They keys felt really nice and I was so impressed that when I returned my ergo keyboard, I bought the closest thing MS had to it without the split.

One month later, I wasn't so enamored of the feel of the stiffening domes and jamming keys though.

[wellington1869]

the 7000 isnt split but its angled (no bump, just a horizontal angle).  I never did like the split keyboards, too drastic a change for me.  I also didnt like the keyboards with the bump, too drastic I thought.

This is my first horizontally-angled board though (6 degree "V" angle on the alpha rows which are otherwise flat). It doesnt feel at all drastic, its a very minute change from normal board.  Not sure yet if  there are any ergo benefits, but I suppose my hands are in a slightly more natural position with the angle. But then i didnt get it for the ergo benefits anyway.

Its a very luxurious-feeling board, which is something I like about it. Its huge alright, about model M size, altogether. Its got a really pretty glass edge all around it. Ton of programmable buttons all around it too (most of which i'll never use cuz i have autohotkey macros anyway for everything i need).  

But yea, its hefty, even 'heavy', and large, and feels like a magisterial keyboard.

[Zalusithix]

Aha, I wasn't aware the 7k had actual hardware differences aside from the wireless... I thought it was just a wireless 4k bundled with the natural mouse. Going by what you say, the 7k sounds like it could very well be an improvement over the 4k.

And yes rip, the 4k/7k is a large board. Outside of stripping the numpad from it though, you're not going to make it much smaller. The split forces it to be wider than a traditional, and the depth comes from the integrated wrist rests - which also provide the support for the reverse incline shim attachment. Ergo boards have never been great space savers. (Chair mounted DataHands not included)

[elbowglue]

http://tlb.org/keyboardchop.html

[Zalusithix]

Aaaand now that you posted that, I realize we're talking about two very different things. I thought you were talking about the Ergonomic Desktop 7000.... Which has a 4k type design in it. Damn you Microsoft...

Laser Desktop 7k


Ergo 7k


GG MS on using the same number allowing confusion.

[wellington1869]

Aaaand now that you posted that, I realize we're talking about two very different things. I thought you were talking about the Ergonomic Desktop 7000.... Which has a 4k type design in it. Damn you Microsoft...

oh yea, i forgot about the ergo 7000. lol. i've never tried that one.

[wellington1869]

entertainment desktop 7000:


natural ergonomic desktop 7000:

[Zalusithix]

Well I think we've covered the fact that Microsoft likes the number 7000. Perhaps the next OS will be Windows 7000. =P

[wellington1869]

GG MS on using the same number allowing confusion.

yea they're not good at naming things.  kind of like sony in that regard. tho sony just dispenses with words altogether and forces you to memorize a serial code for each of their gadgets.

[Zalusithix]

Hmm, serial numbers... That's what we need! The GeekHack Keyboard Serial Number Initiative! From now on to alleviate confusion, every keyboard model will get a unique GH##### serial independent from the manufacturer's identifier.

[wellington1869]

From now on to alleviate confusion, every keyboard model will get a unique GH##### serial independent from the manufacturer's identifier.

I like it.

That keyboard is the only one that has the official "Super Duper Windows" key.

what did that do, anyway?  just a regular win key?

seems like that space under the spacebar is kind of wasted.  I'd have built in a touchpad or something.  Or put the volume controls there.

[Zalusithix]

It's an entertainment board, so it probably has something to do with Windows Media Center. Though, I'm pretty sure that's actually the green one at the side of the board... Maybe it's just a badge in the center?

*Edit* And after doing some research on Microsoft's website (Canadian as the US site doesn't appear to have it), it is just a regular old windows start button... Lame

[ch_123]

To be fair, the MS Natural 4000 is the most ergonomic keyboard currently mass-produced by a major manufacturer.

Which counts for absolutely nothing really because it isn't really anything, and who cares how big or small the company who made it is. If you're someone who actually needs one an ergonomic keyboard, you're better off coughing up the dough and getting a real one from a small name manufacturer.

[Rajagra]

what did that do, anyway?  just a regular win key?

Let's show respect and call it by its proper name, the "Hero Start Button" (snirk.)

The Hero Start Button functions as a Start Button just like the other implementations in this specification. It is not required and is provided as an option for keyboard manufactures that want to take advantage of its more dramatic look—its larger size, clear dome, and full-color printing and placement on the keyboard. The Hero Start Button uses a lens insert and is placed directly below the space bar. If implemented, the Hero Start Button must meet the following requirements:

(List of crazy demands follows.)

[Zalusithix]

Which counts for absolutely nothing really because it isn't really anything, and who cares how big or small the company who made it is. If you're someone who actually needs one an ergonomic keyboard, you're better off coughing up the dough and getting a real one from a small name manufacturer.

That's a short sighted, and elitist attitude. Back in the real world, things like price, availability, and name recognition matter. Not everybody interested in an ergonomic board is in dire need of one due to RSI or some such. Some are just curious, or perhaps want to avoid the risk of RSI in the first place. Those people aren't likely to shell out hundreds of dollars for some product they've never seen in person from some company they've never heard of. Considering they've never used any ergonomic board before, you can hardly blame them for not taking that risk.

Gateway devices have their purpose, and IMO are a vital thing to any market. Without them, the interest in the pricier, more obscure products would dwindle and potentially even die.