Thinking of Violets...

[broken-username]

I could use a few informed opinions.

I have in mind a future project that is very different from any design I've tried previously. See, now that I'm using Colemak regularly as my layout, I've been wanting to experiment with hardware to see if I can get a keyboard that lends itself to a very smooth Colemak experience. The Katana60 looks like a good board for this purpose, and I thought just for kicks I would give it a very Japanese theme (maybe using the Otaku keycap set from SP, for one).

So, in search of a nice and smooth switch, I thought maybe Hako Violets would be an interesting option. The low actuation force sounds nice, as does the very unusual tactility that is just enough to let you know it's there. Having tried some of the Box switches, I have high hopes.

And as far as personal preferences, I'm pretty equal-opportunity. Every type of switch, when well-made, has its own enjoyable qualities. It's also fun to try something new now and then.

So, bottom line:

What do people think of Hako Violets, of those who have tried them in a full keyboard? Disappointing? Satisfying? Too light? Comfortable? Proof that there is something good in this black, oozing cesspool of a world after all?

[Photoelectric]

I got a 10-pack recently to try out.  I like them--going to use them on a TKL keyboard soon.  Indeed very smooth.  Quite a bit lighter than stock MX Clears, but not "too light".  It's subjective, so I'd recommend you order a 10-pack to try out (novelkeys sells them in quantities of 10 + pretty cheap shipping).  If you like them enough, then get the rest of the amount for a full board.

[Kevadu]

I also got a few but I decided that they're really not for me.  They are pretty smooth and the tactility is a bit more noticeable than in the heavier Hako switches (not necessarily because the bump is any bigger but because the relative difference in force is larger).  However they're also really light.  Too light for me.  To me the point of Halo/Hako switches was to have a force curve that ramps up post actuate to discourage bottoming out.  In these the force curve does still ramp up, sure, but it ramps up from practically nothing all the way to very little.  My heavy fingers have already bottomed out before I can even notice the change.

[broken-username]

Hmm, okay. It's certainly a matter of perception as described. I felt the need to ask because reviews are rather slim online and force curves can only tell you so much - sometimes a switch can appear very light from the graphs, but feels heavier, and vice-versa. My daily driver is using 67g Zealios, and I understand those actuate somewhere around 55g (and I've trained myself not to bottom out pretty consistently), so I've been wondering if Hako Clears' supposed heaviness would really be a problem, and if so, Violets surely would not have that issue.

Thank you for weighing in on them!

[befbef]

Hako Violets are the most difficult to describe switches I've ever tried. They feel different every time I use them (not because of inconsistency). Sometimes I think there's no bump sometimes the bump is too much. Sometimes they feel light, sometimes stiff. Perhaps it depends on how long the finger stays on the switch while returning or anything. Changing keycaps will give you again a completely different feeling. The weight is comparable to my 65g Zealios (stiffer than I thought and the force curve shows).
Would I recommend them? Yes, if you have at least two "normal" tactile switches and are looking for something different. I wouldn't want it as daily driver (but am sure it could become the favorite switch for some), but I am 10 times per day plugging int the keyboard just to remember how they felt. Really enjoy the different feelings. It's a complex switch and the fun is trying to understand it. Possible that's just me and others are just typing and think "switch is ok, nothing special, not too small bump, smooth enough...)

[broken-username]

It sounds like they would be worth it just for the experience of trying something completely different, in that case! Your account of them makes me think of my Matias Silent Clicks - some days they're heaven to type on, other days I couldn't see reaching for them, and each time it's like starting over with the switch. That's not a point against them, either. I can see why somebody would love that particular switch.

Alright, I'd say there's a conclusion to be drawn. If Violets aren't my dream switch, I wasn't expecting them to be and I won't be out much money. I'll give them a try alongside Clears and see if there is pleasure to be had with either. Maybe I'll report in or blog about it if there's anything interesting to report.

[Photoelectric]

You can just get a 10 pack, it really doesn't cost much to try them out to decide for yourself:
https://novelkeys.xyz/collections/switches/products/input-clubs-hako-switches

[pixelpusher]

They are light, indeed.  They feel close to a cherry red or 45g topre.  I don’t particularly like them on tray mount or with light keycaps like DSA.  They just feel too clacky that way.  But with thicker caps or in a more resonant case they feel quite nice.  I would say if you like lighter switches you won’t be disappointed.  If you’re looking for tactility or interesting force curves, look elsewhere. 

[broken-username]

I would say if you like lighter switches you won’t be disappointed.  If you’re looking for tactility or interesting force curves, look elsewhere.

Good thing I've run the gamut with switch choices over the years. I do enjoy a good light switch for flow and long-term comfort (like at work). Heavier, tactile, and clicky switches are what I reach for when I'm writing more thoughtfully. Everything has a place as far as I'm concerned.

As someone who has tried Trues in the past, are they really fatiguing enough that the Violet is a needed change? It doesn't seem like, with proper technique, there would be anything to worry about, but enough people find them heavy that I wonder. Perception is a funny thing!

[Photoelectric]

I would say if you like lighter switches you won’t be disappointed.  If you’re looking for tactility or interesting force curves, look elsewhere.

Good thing I've run the gamut with switch choices over the years. I do enjoy a good light switch for flow and long-term comfort (like at work). Heavier, tactile, and clicky switches are what I reach for when I'm writing more thoughtfully. Everything has a place as far as I'm concerned.

As someone who has tried Trues in the past, are they really fatiguing enough that the Violet is a needed change? It doesn't seem like, with proper technique, there would be anything to worry about, but enough people find them heavy that I wonder. Perception is a funny thing!

Yes, Trues and Violets are quite different.  I have re-lubed Trues on a recent build and like them a lot, but they are definitely a touch-typing-without-bottoming-out kind of switch for me--too tough to want to bottom out. Although the toughness also makes it relatively easy to just depress past actuation and let go.  Violets are not too light, I'd say, as the bump is quite prominent.  If you are familiar with MX Browns (and Clears), with Cherry MX there's a bit of downward travel before the bump begins, then some more travel after the bump.  With the BOX switches, the bump is basically right at the top and is more noticeable as you start from resting position (static inertia) instead of already moving.  So even though MX Browns are slightly tougher overall than BOX Violets, I find the latter to still not be unreasonably light.  I consider MX Browns a relaxing switch to touch type on, and I usually make a point to avoid bottoming out as much as possible and MX Violets seem to be similar in that regard.  I actually find BOX Browns to have too much of a bump for my liking and like BOX Violets more.

(Note that some people have very strong meaty hands and pound the switches, so any lighter more nuanced switches basically can feel linear to them.  I might be biased because I avoid bottoming out as much as possible--unless super speed-typing.)

[broken-username]

Consider me convinced. I constructed a little sample pack at NovelKeys, including all three Hako switches, BOX Jade, and BOX Pale Blue (thinking the latter two might be nice for space bar and enter). There's bound to be something I like in there. 

[broken-username]

Well, the day has arrived. I don't have enough that I could make a sane keyboard, but I do have a reasonable smattering of switches. Don't take this as a review or anything, as I really think that only full keyboards built with the switches would qualify for that kind of treatment. But there are a few points of interest. Note that I'm using a pretty spartan plate for the switches, and the keycaps are SA and DSA (don't have any Cherry profile at the moment), arranged in rows of four.

Violets: Very accessible, light, yet "snappy" switch with a rounded bump that starts right away. Still possible not to bottom out, but if you're used to not bothering with that, these are too light to stop you. Very satisfying sound, almost like Topre in some ways.

Clears: Here's where the heavier action really starts. It's very smooth from the top of the press to the actuation point, though tactility is definitely playing a part. They feel very substantial, almost like the switch has its own ideas about how you should be typing, and it will let you know if you're not following the script. Nice and cushy, not heavy enough to be painful, but very easy to avoid bottoming out.

Trues: The Almighty Switch!!! This sucker commands its way or not at all. My left hand is loathe to answer to its demands, but maybe with time I could hope to adapt. With my normal typing style, I can't see making bottoming out a habit with these. Still, it's very responsive, and the sound is (I think) a bit more muted. The tactility is almost indescribable. When your finger makes contact and leaves the key, you KNOW it did so and to what extent, but the action is so smooth that a bump is almost the smallest part of the experience. Not a very "crunchy" or rough actuation, if that makes sense. If switches could speak, this one would often say "Is that all you've got?"

Jades: Smooth, super snappy, loud, and really hard to avoid bottoming out each time (for me, anyway). Very clean, and I don't really get what people mean when they say there is a vaguely sticky feeling. Then again, I don't hug the keys when typing enough to perceive that anyway, in all likelihood. I'd take these over MX Blue any day of the week, they're very, very nice.

Pale Blue: Not bad, needs more cowbell. Er, clickbar. I like that it's heavier and there's not as much crunch as you get with the Jade, but it's a little on the plain side for my liking.

Differently weighted Hakos by finger strength: Hmm, nah. It was worth a shot, but the pinkie finger still manages to bottom out the Violet. A little too novel for my tastes. Maybe an in-between spring tension would help.

And, since tinkering is my middle name (well, the initial is "T", so there's that), let's see what happens when we move the springs around!

Jade with Pale Blue Spring (a Navy in all but name): Not as heavy as I thought it would be! Deeper click, puts up more of a fight to depress, and reminds me a bit of other very high-quality switches from older keyboards. This would be great on spacebar or Esc, if you ask me.

Jade with Clear spring (sounds like poetry!): Almost identical to the Navy at first, but feels more substantial in my opinion, and doesn't want to bottom out for anything. Soft landing and no loss of snap. Sounds a bit deeper still, I think.

Clear with Pale Blue spring: ... Kinda boring, if I'm being honest. There's nothing here that I didn't already have in Zealios. It's like I gutted the switch of what made it special, and that's not what I was hoping to do here.

Wow, that's a lot of good food for thought.

[Photoelectric]

Great summary!  My impressions more or less mirror yours.  I am a big fan of BOX switches now, they are just so solid and smooth and a unique experience from the standard Cherry stem switches.  I put (slightly relubed) Trues onto my M65-a and I love them.  Violets are going on a TKL board soon.  Clears are fine, I'm just still much more attached to stock Cherry MX Clears (particularly old smooth stock)--I like the extra bit of travel distance before the bump begins.  BOX clickies are amazing but so loud, I don't think I could deal with them on a keyboard permanently, unless used in a hot-swappable PCB.  BOX White is more pleasing and crisp to me than BOX Jade, but both are great.  The sticky discussion you might have seen is mostly about the early batches of Jades which have since been improved and don't "stick" anymore.

[broken-username]

Ah yes, that would explain what I observed with the Jades. And indeed, these are really worth the buy! I think most everyone can find something they like here. Kailh and Input Club have really come into their own in the past few years.

So, as a little side note for those Colemak typists who might also want to look into these switches, I have some unique points to mention. As Colemak has a lot more rolls than just about any other layout out there, I think the feeling you get while rolling makes a big difference. Will you like the rolling on Hako switches?

Well, do you like Blackjack?

Pardon the analogy, but when a Blackjack dealer performs the common "riffle shuffle", you see that the first motion is to combine the cards by creating tension, then allowing the edges to fall and combine together. The trouble is, the result is in a different order as desired, but only barely connected as a deck and not yet ready for play. The shuffle is only halfway there. The second half is where things are a bit more interesting and tricky. The thumbs come together, the hands apply a little force from the bottom, the cards arch, and there is a controlled cascade of cards that fall closer together. Then the deck gets a couple of taps to make everything neat, and the game begins.

And this second part is the action to which I would compare the rolling sensation on Hakos. It's not harsh, the tension is minimal, there's a smooth release at the end, and it's very pleasurable to watch and perform. Maybe it's a very flawed metaphor, but that's the first thing that came to mind upon trying them.