Key Tronic - NEARLY as good as Topre/HHKB

[handyrandyrc]

At what point do we justify spending insane amounts of cash for the ULTIMATE experience?  I would rate my Key Tronic E3601 'ergo' feel like "85%" of what a Topre/HHKB feels like.  I can buy these keyboards for 25-30 dollars brand new at Newegg or elsewhere.

The other keyboard feels better, but only marginally so.  I really can't justify paying 200 dollars for a keyboard, as much as I think it would be the 'ultimate experience'.  It's sort of like the hi-fi gurus with audio stuff.  You can really go OVER THE TOP with special silver-wire cables, etc. to get the top-notch audio experience.  How much of that experience is REAL, and how much is PLACEBO -- "I spent $1000 on wires, they MUST sound better."

It's like a hockey stick graph -- "bang for the buck".  The Key Tronic board delivers 85% of the feel of that Topre switch to me.  But the cost of a Topre/HHKB is over 6 TIMES the cost of this little Key Tronic.  I can't pay a 6x premium for 15% 'feel'.

To each his own, but I've found something that I actually quite like to type on.  Black Alps, Cherries of all sorts, Model M, all good at what they do, but my preference is for the Topre type switch.  Really, it's a GOOD rubber dome with a spring, no?  I'm in love with this Key Tronic, rubber dome and all.  It has the ergo keys, differently weighted from 80g on 'banger bar, CTRL, ALT' to 35g for 'pinkies'.  It feels great.  I'm using the Model E3601 but I'd go for a E3600 too -- the latter being preferable to me as it has a standard Enter and double-wide backspace.  I also am used to the \ above the Enter key.

** not affiliated with Key Tronic in any way, this is just what I've found in the last couple weeks since being here and going out to try all sorts of keyboards.  I've worked in IT since 1995, and was a geek kid before that all my growing up years.  I know what I like, what is BAD (these new Dell minimalist boards) and what are good (much of what I've tried.)

[didjamatic]

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but mine is very different.

Some will rice out a Honda Civic to make it as fast as a stock BMW M3 or Porsche 911 in a straight line over a short distance.  Then they will conclude they 911 or M3's are complete rip offs, but I disagree.  You get more out of a 911 or M3 in my opinion and will have a better experience overall, IF you can comfortably afford it.

Remember, even if the 85% number you threw out was accurate, with many things it's the last 10% that costs more than the first 90% to achieve.

Keytronics are great keyboards, but they aren't built anywhere near the way a Realforce is.  Disassemble them both and you'll see the work that goes into a realforce and that work translates to reliability and feel that you can't quite get from a Keytronic.

[handyrandyrc]

66% of a Topre -- I hear truth spoken.

One thing I _DO_ wish is that I could get one of these Key Tronic keyboards in a more narrow configuration, either sans 10-key or something similar.

HHKB is narrow.... DOH!

EDIT ---- OOOH the other keyboard I _REALLY_ like is the Logitech Illuminated.  Those perfectstroke scissor switches are sweet.

[wellington1869]

i've yet to try a keytronic...

[itlnstln]

I think any halfway-decent rubber dome is going to feel around 66% of a Topre.  I think a couple of things make Topre better than the rest:

-No need to bottom out
-A better key structure that directs almost any force directly down, thus making the switches very smooth.

Other than that, I don't really think there is too much to be excited about around Topres other than, maybe, switch life.

[Mental Hobbit]

-No need to bottom out

Forgive my ignorance, as I've never tried a Topre, but I don't get that frequent remark. It's a capactitve switch, so it actuates before the rubber dome has fully collapsed and hits the bottom. But the rubber dome collapses anyway, so how does this make a difference? How can you not bottom out on a rubber dome?

[didjamatic]

It should also be noted that you really need to use a capacitive board over a period of time so you can learn to use it to it's potential before you really understand it's benefits.  If you just mash the keys down like a Neanderthal, then a Topre won't do much for you.  If you learn to type utilizing the capacitive nature of the switch, letting your brain and muscle memory adjust to it, that provides a different experience all together.  That plus the incredible build quality of a realforce board put it in a completely different league than a Keytronic.

[itlnstln]

Forgive my ignorance, as I've never tried a Topre, but I don't get that frequent remark. It's a capactitve switch, so it actuates before the rubber dome has fully collapsed and hits the bottom. But the rubber dome collapses anyway, so how does this make a difference? How can you not bottom out on a rubber dome?

Topres, particularly in the Realforce implementation for some reason, don't have the "catastrophic" collapse a regular rubber dome does.  On my Realforce numpad, I can type long strings of numbers without bottoming out.  The HHKB feels a little different for some reason, but I can still type without having to bottom out, but it's a little more difficult.  The tactile point is very smooth, and not as "sharp" as a regular rubber dome, so you can easily stop pressing before you hit bottom.  Again, the HHKB is a little different for some reason.

[kishy]

If KeyTronic keyboards still have the same feel of older ones, I can say they're not like Topres based on how other people describe Topres alone.

KeyTronics have a defined snap, a rather sharp drop when they pass the "buckling" point of the dome. They are very much a tactile "switch" keyboard. They do require bottoming out, in fact quite a bit harder than many other rubber dome keyboards, to send a keypress.

Descriptions I've seen of the Topre mechanism describe a smooth, gentle keypress with no requirement of completely bottoming out.

The majority of other rubber dome keyboards I've tried would be more similar to Topre than KeyTronic would be.

[itlnstln]

There's definitely a significant difference.  I think a lot of it has to do with the key/switch interface.  Since there is little to no wiggle in the caps, pretty much any energy is directed down onto the dome, so you waste little energy pushing to the side. This combined with the basic way the switch functions, results in a much better experience than regular rubber domes.

That said, Topres still inherit some of the deficiencies of rubber domes like the springiness Cherrys have.

[Otterclock]

3600 you say, really? Have you tried the Keytronic Designer p2? I hated it, and I don't even hate all rubber domes. The 3600 must be radically different from it because the Designer is clacky in a really harsh, cheap way, like it's trying to mimic a buckling spring but fails terribly.

I'd be interested in seeing a video of typing on a 3601 to get an aural sense of it. got a cam? =)

[elbowglue]

66% of a Topre -- I hear truth spoken.

One thing I _DO_ wish is that I could get one of these Key Tronic keyboards in a more narrow configuration, either sans 10-key or something similar.

HHKB is narrow.... DOH!

EDIT ---- OOOH the other keyboard I _REALLY_ like is the Logitech Illuminated.  Those perfectstroke scissor switches are sweet.

It should be very easy to saw off the edge of a keytronic and fold over the membrane.

http://tlb.org/keyboardchop.html

I think I will start a hacksaw interest group here at geekhack..

Kishy:  I find the 45gram keys of topres to have a nice snap to them.  They actuate a little higher than typical dome boards (right after the snap) because of the switching mechanism they use.  They actually aren't smooth, they are more snappy than anything..

[kishy]

Kishy:  I find the 45gram keys of topres to have a nice snap to them.  They actuate a little higher (right after the snap) because of the switching mechanism they use.  They actually aren't smooth, they are more snappy than anything..

That changes a lot then. If there is a snap, regardless of where it is in the travel, then KeyTronics are more similar to Topre than any other rubber dome keyboard (at least that I've tried).

[itlnstln]

Best keys in the biz (assuming you have good eyesight and bright lights).  Feel like velvet.

True that.

[itlnstln]

That changes a lot then. If there is a snap, regardless of where it is in the travel, then KeyTronics are more similar to Topre than any other rubber dome keyboard (at least that I've tried).

The snap depends on the application.  My all-45g. Realforce numpad is very smooth with pretty much no snap.*  My (all-45g.) HHKB is very snappy.  I don't know why they differ. The only thing I can think of is that the mounting plate in the RF is metal and the HHKB's is plastic, but that doesn't seem like it should make a difference.

* I think it's this feel in the Realforce that gives Topre's their mystique. I certainly prefer it to the feel of the HHKB.

[wellington1869]

Forgive my ignorance, as I've never tried a Topre, but I don't get that frequent remark. It's a capactitve switch, so it actuates before the rubber dome has fully collapsed and hits the bottom. But the rubber dome collapses anyway, so how does this make a difference? How can you not bottom out on a rubber dome?

i dont even get the need to not bottom out. I'm a key masher. If i dont bottom out my life feels incomplete. To me bottoming out is one of the more satisfying things about typing.

[itlnstln]

I only bottom out during sex, and I don't have sex with my keyboards.  You need to learn a lighter touch, man.  Women like that.

[wellington1869]

I only bottom out during sex, and I don't have sex with my keyboards.  You need to learn a lighter touch, man.  Women like that.

lol. guess i'm a neanderthal

[wellington1869]

3600 you say, really? Have you tried the Keytronic Designer p2? I hated it, and I don't even hate all rubber domes. The 3600 must be radically different from it because the Designer is clacky in a really harsh, cheap way, like it's trying to mimic a buckling spring but fails terribly.

I'd be interested in seeing a video of typing on a 3601 to get an aural sense of it. got a cam? =)

i too would like to see something audio/visual on the 360*.

[handyrandyrc]

3600 you say, really? Have you tried the Keytronic Designer p2? I hated it, and I don't even hate all rubber domes. The 3600 must be radically different from it because the Designer is clacky in a really harsh, cheap way, like it's trying to mimic a buckling spring but fails terribly.

I'd be interested in seeing a video of typing on a 3601 to get an aural sense of it. got a cam? =)

Just a quickie from work today.

This is what it sounds like.

[handyrandyrc]

i too would like to see something audio/visual on the 360*.

You've got it!

Typed each of the main home row keys under each finger.  There is a little pitch difference between the lighter and heavier keys.  Also pressed Enter and Space bar for you.

This is the 3601 with the L shaped enter key.  I'm trying to get used to where backspace is, as well as \ -- I think I'd prefer the 3600 which has the standard layout.

[wellington1869]

You've got it!

Typed each of the main home row keys under each finger.  There is a little pitch difference between the lighter and heavier keys.  Also pressed Enter and Space bar for you.

This is the 3601 with the L shaped enter key.  I'm trying to get used to where backspace is, as well as \ -- I think I'd prefer the 3600 which has the standard layout.

cool, thanks

[Mental Hobbit]

Sounds very pleasant to me.
The only Keytronic I know is the E03623EGR501. That's the cheapest looking and feeling board I've ever got my hands on. And at the same time, it's exceptionally nice to type on.

[handyrandyrc]

Not bad.  RealForce sounds better.  About 34% better.

Sounds great!  And at $255 it had BETTER sound better than mine!  

Here's a fun one...  The all-time favorite - Dell SK-8115 in all of its rubber-dome glory.

[ch_123]

I think any halfway-decent rubber dome is going to feel around 66% of a Topre.  I think a couple of things make Topre better than the rest:

-No need to bottom out
-A better key structure that directs almost any force directly down, thus making the switches very smooth.

Other than that, I don't really think there is too much to be excited about around Topres other than, maybe, switch life.

Lighter actuation force as well.

Forgive my ignorance, as I've never tried a Topre, but I don't get that frequent remark. It's a capactitve switch, so it actuates before the rubber dome has fully collapsed and hits the bottom. But the rubber dome collapses anyway, so how does this make a difference? How can you not bottom out on a rubber dome?

Because the rubber dome only provides the tactility. It's the depression of the spring underneath that actuates the contact.

Kishy: I find the 45gram keys of topres to have a nice snap to them. They actuate a little higher than typical dome boards (right after the snap) because of the switching mechanism they use. They actually aren't smooth, they are more snappy than anything..

They're far more smooth than most other mechanical switches, and any rubber dome keyboard I've tried.

[microsoft windows]

You all see, a Keytronic's almost as good as a Topre, and a Model M kicks the crap out of both.

[didjamatic]

Not bad.  RealForce sounds better.  About 34% better.

Hilarious.

[Rajagra]

i dont even get the need to not bottom out. I'm a key masher. If i dont bottom out my life feels incomplete. To me bottoming out is one of the more satisfying things about typing.

Is this you?...

[ch_123]

You all see, a Keytronic's almost as good as a Topre, and a Model M kicks the crap out of both.

You're in desperate need of a new act.

[kishy]

You're in desperate need of a new act.

It's not nice to suggest someone's education may be lacking.

[itlnstln]

You're in desperate need of a new act.

It's even worse now that there are two of them around here.

[ch_123]

The two twins and Lavender guy... what an act...

[ch_123]

It's not nice to suggest someone's education may be lacking.

We have this mess.

[wellington1869]

Is this you?...

lol! pretty much, except I scowl as I type

[Mental Hobbit]

Because the rubber dome only provides the tactility. It's the depression of the spring underneath that actuates the contact.

I know that, but it has nothing to do with my question.

[ch_123]

Because the rubber dome bottoms out before the spring underneath does.

[Mental Hobbit]

Because the rubber dome bottoms out before the spring underneath does.

Doesn't that confirm my assumption that the capacitive switch makes no difference, as the rubber dome will collapse anyway?

[itlnstln]

Also, the lighter activation force of the Topres makes the domes collapse in a very smooth fashion, so it's easier to control the position of the keystroke.  Typical rubber domes have a "snappy" collapse which pretty much forces the stroke in an all the way up or all the way down position.  Topres do not have this.

[itlnstln]

Oops.  I was looking at it as "outty."  The shadows on the side of the dome should have been a visual clue, but alas, I failed.

[majestouch]

Any keyboard with switches and a layout that *works* is already 50% of the way to a Topre;) I wouldn't recommend Topres if your only criteria for judgment are switch-feel and how much money you've spent at the end of day 1.

*Reasons to buy a Topre*

-High material and build quality, inside and out; both of which help them last and retain high resale value.

-Very low rate of a failure; a magnitude of 10 times lower than most Cherry switch based boards.

-Capacitive switch technology = no chattering. This kind of confidence might not matter to the average consumer, but if you're working in a live environment where mistakes can be very costly, then this is part of your insurance policy.

-Responsible manufacturing (made in a country with respect for human rights, ISO 14001, etc.).

[clickclack]

Forgive my ignorance, as I've never tried a Topre, but I don't get that frequent remark. It's a capactitve switch, so it actuates before the rubber dome has fully collapsed and hits the bottom. But the rubber dome collapses anyway, so how does this make a difference? How can you not bottom out on a rubber dome?

Doesn't that confirm my assumption that the capacitive switch makes no difference, as the rubber dome will collapse anyway?

I know you have not used the board before and you understand the mechanism, but maybe I can help clarify things further.

1) You know you don't have to bottom out on a topre type board to actuate the key press and you know that you do have to nearly or completely bottom out for a keypress to register on most rubber domes.)

2) Because of the way the the topre dome is formed it doesnt jump as nervously as a normal rubber dome. I can type on a Realforce without bottoming out... not so much on a HHKB pro2, but I think that has to do with where I have positioned it on the desk though. Not bottoming out is a skill like many other things, it may be important to you or it may not be. Certain skills come easier to some and not to others. Maybe the more you type the easier that becomes, idunno.

3)The Topre type boards are not as sloppy regarding movement and tollerances like most other boards. And they generally feel significantly less gummy than other boards using rubber domes.

4)an off center keypress is much better controlled on a topre board than most other dome boards.

5)Topres will most likely last much, much longer.

6)They are very reliable boards

7)I doesn't suffer from some of the same problems that many other keyboards do with regards to keys chattering, transposing, low N-key... (kinda don't know what i'm talking about on this one though =P haahaa)

I probably won't be making keys for rubber dome keyboards
(I think that makes rubber domes really inferior)
LoLz!

Edit: oops I  missed majestouch's response, he covered most of the stuff I wrote! haahaa oh well, he said it better anyway =P

[itlnstln]

I can type on a Realforce without bottoming out... not so much on a HHKB  pro2, but I think that has to do with where I have positioned it on the  desk though.

It might be your positioning, but I think there is something inherently different about the HHKB that makes it feel different than the Realforce.  I can't quite figure out what it could be, though.

[bionicroach]

-Responsible manufacturing (made in a country with respect for human rights, ISO 14001, etc.).

Thanks for this pointing this out.  I hadn't really thought about that angle before, but it actually is a very good reason to support the higher cost of Topre boards.  A big part of the human rights problem is certainly linked to the fact that most consumers just want manufacturers to give them cheaper and cheaper products, and there's pretty much just one path to that end.

-Capacitive switch technology = no chattering. This kind of confidence might not matter to the average consumer, but if you're working in a live environment where mistakes can be very costly, then this is part of your insurance policy.

This insurance policy is somewhat negated in my case since under duress, I tend to peek at the keys and on the 87U, I can't see the key legends.

[itlnstln]

Peeker.  I used to do that.  In fact, I used to stare blankly at the keyboard when I would type.  I threw some blank caps on the Filco I was using at the time, and that broke me of the habit for good.

[bionicroach]

Well, there is that unfortunate Whale thing......

Yeah, but he said HUMAN rights...

[itlnstln]

Yeah, but he said HUMAN rights...

Sometimes that distinction is a little blurry.

[bionicroach]

I was hoping the dark legends on the 87U would cure my peeking habit, but it's not really working because the temptation is still there.  I agree, blank caps are probably the only real solution.  I really only peek for the number row and symbols, though, so if I could find a good typing tutorial that has drills for those specific areas, that might do the trick.

[Rajagra]

Well, there is that unfortunate Whale thing......

Yes. They really shouldn't have tried to transport a rotting 50 ton sperm whale through the centre of town...

[itlnstln]

Ugh.  It's too early for that.

[audioave10]

I have that Key Tronic 3601 and I must say its quite smooth and its sound is very pleasant. It certainly doesn't have the quality that the Topre would have, but at $3, its my best keyboard buy so far.