Key Tronic - NEARLY as good as Topre/HHKB

[itlnstln]

I thought, too, that typical rubber domes were hard to measure with the ripOmeter.

[itlnstln]

An all-30g. might get me to shell out for a Realforce since they will be lighter than the Cherry browns.  I would rather have a lighter HHKB, though.

[handyrandyrc]

I can't remember exactly but last  time we had somebody stick nickels on that ergo Keytronic the numbers were way off.

Refer to this chart, and compare my numbers.  

Key Tronic Ergo Weights

Did a little test - my numbers are in amount of nickels stacked on the key to actuate.

CTRL = 20 nickels = 100g
ALT = 20 nickels = 100g
Enter = 17 nickels = 85g
G = 14 nickels = 70g
C = 14 nickels = 70g
Z = 13 nickels = 65g
N = 13 nickels = 65g
A = 12 nickels = 60g
Q = 12 nickels = 60g
] = 11 nickels = 55g
" = 11 nickels  = 55g

There are definitely weight differences in the separate areas of the keyboard, but they don't match up exactly with what Key Tronic says they should be.  Maybe this old keyboard is REALLY stiff.  Again, the testing methodology isn't perfect.  I tried to be very careful when adding nickels so as not to 'trigger' the key from additional force of the nickel dropping.

Each key could sit upright with 1 nickel less than what I applied.  Applying that last nickel would pop it down.

[kishy]

Goin back up a bit, but what are you people talking about? Normal, common rubber domes are the ones that lack tactility and just slide down relatively uninterrupted and mushy. "Jumpiness" as someone called it earlier is rare among rubber domes and is what I described about the KeyTronic as being desirable.

[Otterclock]

Just look at the price difference. Clearly the topre boards are 1500% better. Going by the standard performance increase manifestation of electronic products, let's see what this gets you:

100%- doubled comfort
200%- doubled comfort and reliability
500%- increased respect of your peers
800%- cures baldness
1200%- artificial intelligence, i.e. types for you
1500%- time machine

[wellington1869]

Just look at the price difference. Clearly the topre boards are 1500% better. Going by the standard performance increase manifestation of electronic products, let's see what this gets you:

800%- cures baldness -- how much for this one?

[handyrandyrc]

I only have a few different dome keyboards here to compare, but I noticed something different about the Key Tronic domes.  Maybe you guys can help me determine whether this is common or not.

The Key Tronic domes have a series of 'lines' that run from the base up to the top of the dome.  Sort of like looking at a child drawing of a sun looking at it from the top.  There is a series of probably 8-10 of these 'lines' around the full circumference.

The Dell 8115 and Quietkey, as well as a generic HP board I have here, all have domes that are smooth.  Just pressing the dome on one of these causes it to mush.  On the other hand, depressing raw Key Tronic domes there is a definite 'pop' to them as they collapse and return.  Do other brand domes have these 'ridges' or lines on the domes?

[kishy]

I only have a few different dome keyboards here to compare, but I noticed something different about the Key Tronic domes.  Maybe you guys can help me determine whether this is common or not.

The Key Tronic domes have a series of 'lines' that run from the base up to the top of the dome.  Sort of like looking at a child drawing of a sun looking at it from the top.  There is a series of probably 8-10 of these 'lines' around the full circumference.

The Dell 8115 and Quietkey, as well as a generic HP board all have domes that are smooth.  Just pressing the dome on one of these causes it to mush.  On the other hand, depressing raw Key Tronic domes there is a definite 'pop' to them as they collapse and return.  Do other brand domes have these 'ridges' or lines on the domes?

Bingo, exactly what I'm talking about. Typical domes mush while much less common designs (KeyTronic being an example) snap. Snap = good, mush = bad.

Can't say I've ever seen another rubber dome that 'snapped' and I don't spend time examining rubber domes, so can't tell you any others like it.

Edit: actually, Unicomp rubber domes snap quite sharply. Haven't inspected those domes but I bet they're somewhat similar to KeyTronic...the feel is similar.

[wellington1869]

i wish someone would mail me a free keytronic.

[didjamatic]

i wish someone would mail me a free keytronic.

Are you kidding?  It's the single most common keyboard in every goodwill/salvationarmy/thrift store in America.  You can go BUY 2-5 of them for the cost of someone shipping you one.

[wellington1869]

Are you kidding?  It's the single most common keyboard in every goodwill/salvationarmy/thrift store in America.

yes, but if someone mailed me one, i wouldnt even have to leave the house. you see?

besides, i dont yet know which keytronics are the "good" keytronics.

[didjamatic]

Go to the nearest thrift store and try them out in person.

[wellington1869]

Go to the nearest thrift store and try them out in person.

come to think of it, i've been in this city for 10 years and I dont think i've ever been to a nyc thrift store. They probably have all kinds of wacky stuff.

[didjamatic]

If you're in NYC, you are within walking distance of at least 10Million Keytronics.

[wellington1869]

If you're in NYC, you are within walking distance of at least 10Million Keytronics.

you're prolly right  I should get off my ass and look. I should get some time this summer.

[ch_123]

Refer to this chart, and compare my numbers.  

Key Tronic Ergo Weights

Did a little test - my numbers are in amount of nickels stacked on the key to actuate.

CTRL = 20 nickels = 100g
ALT = 20 nickels = 100g
Enter = 17 nickels = 85g
G = 14 nickels = 70g
C = 14 nickels = 70g
Z = 13 nickels = 65g
N = 13 nickels = 65g
A = 12 nickels = 60g
Q = 12 nickels = 60g
] = 11 nickels = 55g
" = 11 nickels  = 55g

100g for Ctrl? Christ... 90g is bad enough for the big space bar on the Model F that you can mash with your thumb... 100g for something to press with your pinky must hurt...

[clickclack]

Goin back up a bit, but what are you people talking about? Normal, common rubber domes are the ones that lack tactility and just slide down relatively uninterrupted and mushy. "Jumpiness" as someone called it earlier is rare among rubber domes and is what I described about the KeyTronic as being desirable.

I know what you are saying but I don't think that is actually the case. Pretty much all rubber domes have significant tactility, but its the way that tactility is displayed that is of interest. There are many different types of dome designs and many feel slightly different. But most (the great majority I believe) have a very nervous tactile point. What I mean by that is you have to push through it you cant really end the stoke mid way. They are designed like this I believe so that you bottom out so they can actually activate the key. I have had a number of keytronic boards, but they never really seemed to stand out to me, that may be due to the amount of boards I have used though.
I think someone mentioned ridges in the rubber dome in some (or all) keytronics. There are too many possible reasons for this design to really pin point the purpose with out disclousure fromt the manufacterer (not distributer). Durability, realiablity, consistency, tactility, ease of manufacturing, product differentiation, tooling availability...

The cherry black is one of the very, very few mechanisms that display essentially no tactility in its range of motion.

[Otterclock]

besides, i dont yet know which keytronics are the "good" keytronics.

if you do try one, I recommend the 6101 or one of its variations. It apparently has some kind of "center bearing" switch technology that the lower numbered models do not. I have no idea if it's good, but I havent seen anyone mention using one or posting pics/vids. Do it for science. like $20 shipped on ebay I think.

Its unique center-bearing switch technology offers both a superior user interface and enhanced product reliability.

[wellington1869]

if you do try one, I recommend the 6101 or one of its variations. It apparently has some kind of "center bearing" switch technology that the lower numbered models do not. I have no idea if it's good, but I havent seen anyone mention using one or posting pics/vids. Do it for science. like $20 shipped on ebay I think.

I'm plunging.

--looks like 3600 (weighted keys, probably similar to Das I, which keytronics was the manuf of I believe), and the 6100, are the recommended models.

--the *01 in each series has the L-shaped enter key (yuck) and small backspace key (yuck).  So I need the *00 series of either.

--6000 is virtually impossible to find anywhere even on ebay. So looks like if i'm going to try this, i'll have to get 3600 series.

--3600 series available everywhere, even brand new only $25, usb model. Looks like thats the one i'm getting.

I'll ram a camera up its butt soon as I get it.

[audioave10]

I'd love to hear what you think. I have one and find it to be "pleasant". But, what pleasant means I have no idea (subjective). Some of you guys are real typists where as I reside at the other end of the spectrum. I have no knowledge to give a useful review.

[wellington1869]

I'd love to hear what you think. I have one and find it to be "pleasant". But, what pleasant means I have no idea (subjective). Some of you guys are real typists where as I reside at the other end of the spectrum. I have no knowledge to give a useful review.

do you find it to be very clicky? I found two more videos of what I think are the 3600.

This one is the das I, which i believe may be the same as the keytronic 3600. The guy describes it as "clicky, like a typewriter".

this one, the guy thinks he found an ibm or something, but he turns it over and the label says keytronic, and is extraordinarily clicky, if its the 3600.

contrast with the video handyrc posted above, which he says is the 3601, which is more "thocky" than clicky, I thought.

I'd love to try a 6000 series too, if anyone finds one, let me know. Preferably under $30.

I should add, i'm trying these out of curiosity, in all likelyhood I'll sell them after a short while, since I do rather like my ms wireless laser desktop 7000, at the moment.

[rdjack21]

I only have a few different dome keyboards here to compare, but I noticed something different about the Key Tronic domes.  Maybe you guys can help me determine whether this is common or not.

The Key Tronic domes have a series of 'lines' that run from the base up to the top of the dome.  Sort of like looking at a child drawing of a sun looking at it from the top.  There is a series of probably 8-10 of these 'lines' around the full circumference.

The Dell 8115 and Quietkey, as well as a generic HP board I have here, all have domes that are smooth.  Just pressing the dome on one of these causes it to mush.  On the other hand, depressing raw Key Tronic domes there is a definite 'pop' to them as they collapse and return.  Do other brand domes have these 'ridges' or lines on the domes?

Here is what the domes look like:


To be honest it is the only thing on the keyboard that keytronic spent any money on. The rest of the keyboard is pretty much cheap junk. Once you type on a Topre board you will not go back to or even want to type on a keytronic board. If keytronic would spend a little money and increase the quality of the rest of the board it would not be all that bad for someone that does not mind banging on their board. I personally prefer the lighter touch of the Topre's or Brown cherry boards.

[wellington1869]

Thanks for the pic, RD. I imagine the ribs stiffen the domes a bit.

[ch_123]

The cherry black is one of the very, very few mechanisms that display essentially no tactility in its range of motion.

Those and the ten gazillion other types of linear switch in existence...

[itlnstln]

Thanks for the pic, RD. I imagine the ribs stiffen the domes a bit.

They're ribbed for your pleasure.

[leos]

To be honest it is the only thing on the keyboard that keytronic spent any money on. The rest of the keyboard is pretty much cheap junk. Once you type on a Topre board you will not go back to or even want to type on a keytronic board. If keytronic would spend a little money and increase the quality of the rest of the board it would not be all that bad for someone that does not mind banging on their board. I personally prefer the lighter touch of the Topre's or Brown cherry boards.

Same opinion. I have the Das1 (oem Key Tronic), Its good but the high end feeling comes only with a Topre board (price is pain in the ass).

your finger deserve the best

[ch_123]

This one is the das I, which i believe may be the same as the keytronic 3600. The guy describes it as "clicky, like a typewriter".

this one, the guy thinks he found an ibm or something, but he turns it over and the label says keytronic, and is extraordinarily clicky, if its the 3600.

Well, if by typewriter he meant "crappy modern word processor" and by IBM he meant one of those Chiconys that lavender guy is always on about, maybe he could have a point there...

[audioave10]

Wellington1869...my 3601 is indeed "thocky" not "clicky". I took a key off and its just a tube without a spring in it. I still think its the best "cheapo" keyboard out there but for my hard feel its definatly a bottom-out key. The bottoming out does seem softened and might not have the uncomfortable feeling of some others.

[wellington1869]

Same opinion. I have the Das1 (oem Key Tronic), Its good but the high end feeling comes only with a Topre board (price is pain in the ass).

your finger deserve the best

There's no question topres are of extraordinary high quality, i'd agree with that.

And yet they're too light and too quiet for me, not to mention the difficulty mere mortals will have justifying the price. Nothing against topre lovers. To each their own, as always.

I'll probably like keytronics, but in any case, i'm curious to try it just as I was curious to try the topres.

I deserve an award for not making a sexual reference with "finger", "ribbed", and "butt".

[42.tar.gz]

This one is the das I, which i believe may be the same as the keytronic 3600. The guy describes it as "clicky, like a typewriter".

Nope, that's actually a Cherry G80 based Das II with blues.

[wellington1869]

Nope, that's actually a Cherry G80 based Das II with blues.

ah, that would explain the clicks rather than thocks.

handyrc says the 3600 is more thocky than clicky.

[itlnstln]

Those are some furry domes.

[didjamatic]

I see those old Compaq's often, sometimes with metal backs on them.  They feel snappy, maybe I'll pick one up next time I see one.

[ricercar]

Topre sliders - see how they "Lock" in the grooves to prevent wiggling.

Show Image

This is the most effective comment I've seen to convince me Topre could be worth the price.

[itlnstln]

I also think this is why they're so smooth.  Since they don't really wiggle, all the force you apply to the key gets directed down on the dome.

[rdjack21]

What are the sliders like on a Keytronic?  I've found the quality of the rubber dome sliders makes a HUGE difference in feel.

KeyTronic's problem is not really with the design of the board but the really poor quality of the materials they use to actually build the board and how thin the poor quality plastic is. Like I said the rubber domes are the only place they spent any money the rest of the board is cheap junk from a materials point of view.

But for your viewing pleasure: (it should be noted that all of these pictures are in a review I did quit some time ago that no one bothered reading)

Key:


Key mount top:


key mount back:

Do you see all those gaps in the way the key sits in the slider? Topre keys fit much tighter. Anyways all those gaps and spaces makes for a key that rattles around a bunch and just feels sloppy. I really feel that if Keytronic could tighten up the tolerances on this it would improve the board considerably but doing that increases the cost substantially (the tighter the tolerances the higher the cost).

Back of rubber dome: (Note the air relieve channels)

[Mental Hobbit]

Show Image

Man, that's high end. Got to take some pics of my Keytronic soon. Then you'll know what's cheap. If yours was $15, mine must have been $2.50. And it's still remarkably nice to type on.

[itlnstln]

Yeah, it would be a lot better if the tabs went all the way up the channel.

[wellington1869]

Anyways all those gaps and spaces makes for a key that rattles around a bunch

all this talk about the value of 'tightness' on the keystroke...

here's something crazy, you ready? I like key rattle. There, i've said it. its true though. The topre was so smooth that i honestly found it boring.  1.5 years ago, when i reviewed my matias tactile pro 2, i mentioned how much the keys rattle, and how fun i thought that was (someone else at the time mentioned they liked it too). 1 year ago when i reviewed the tvs I also mentioned that i liked its key rattle. so i'm not making this up ;-) I really do.  Chalk it up to 'to each their own' i guess

So the 'tightness' argument for spending an extra $280 doesnt really work with me, anyway.  I know topres are top notch quality, not disputing that. Just saying. 'quiet' and even 'smooth' isnt 'automatically' a selling point. Different strokes.

TO me, a topre is like an Acura. You cant lose with it, if you dont mind paying for it. But it'll be so reliable and unassuming that it'll bring tears of boredom to your eyes.

mine must have been $2.50. And it's still remarkably nice to type on.

thats what i say. My 7k honda civic 4 speed was one of the most fun cars I've ever driven.

[itlnstln]

I like everything tight.  


Well, except my pants.

[JBert]

Like the Model M - longer channels and ridges.

Show Image

And yet they wiggle as well, still making for some interesting typing.

[itlnstln]

Gotta keep the spermies happy.  That's the only thing I don't mind that rattles.  Or more precisely, "thunks".

I hate going into the grocery store wearing jeans.  The managers harass me, because they think I'm trying to steal a summer sausage and a couple of grapefruits.

[handyrandyrc]

Sent a couple of questions to Key Tronic yesterday.  Here is the contents/response...

Q: What is the difference between the E61xx and E36xx series?  Is there a real difference internally? ( I see that 00 means IBM layout and the 01 means the L-shaped Enter key layout.)

A: The differences between the E061XX and E036XX series are:
size: the E061XX is smaller by an inch in both side to side and top to bottom.  The difference is the case size, not the keys
feel:  the E061XX product does use a different switch and will feel slightly different from the E036XX products.
switch life:  the E061XX is rated to 20 million, whereas the E036XX is rated to 30 million lifecycles
warranty:  model number dependent

Q: Which keyboards are your 'Lifetime' series keyboards that have the full warranty?

A: We have a series of keyboards that are in the Lifetime Series, which carry a ltd lifetime warranty and we also 2 other keyboards that have ltd lifetime warranties.  Model numbers are CLASSIC-XX, DESIGNER-P2, TRACKBALL-XX, E03601P1 and E03601P2

I told them about the discussion we were having, and she thanked me for the link to the forum I sent her.

She told me she'd be happy to answer anything else she could.  Anything else we should ask?

[rdjack21]

Man, that's high end. Got to take some pics of my Keytronic soon. Then you'll know what's cheap. If yours was $15, mine must have been $2.50. And it's still remarkably nice to type on.

It is an older model that I've had for oh I don't know 15 years or so I'm sure manufacturing has gotten worse in that time. I have a few of them sitting in a pile with my other junk rubber domes that I can't seem to just throw out. When I finally get around to cleaning this room I will chunk them.

[rdjack21]

Looks at first glance better than it is.  The slider tabs (the four points sticking out from the circle) are very shallow.

For some reason I thought I posted this but here is a shot from the top so that you can see that the tabs are very shallow:

[Mental Hobbit]

Her name is xxx - email is xxx

Unless she was terribly rude, you should edit the email address out. The name probaly too.

[handyrandyrc]

Unless she was terribly rude, you should edit the email address out. The name probaly too.

Good call.  Thanks, man.

[rdjack21]

all this talk about the value of 'tightness' on the keystroke...

here's something crazy, you ready? I like key rattle. There, i've said it. its true though. The topre was so smooth that i honestly found it boring.  1.5 years ago, when i reviewed my matias tactile pro 2, i mentioned how much the keys rattle, and how fun i thought that was (someone else at the time mentioned they liked it too). 1 year ago when i reviewed the tvs I also mentioned that i liked its key rattle. so i'm not making this up ;-) I really do.  Chalk it up to 'to each their own' i guess

So the 'tightness' argument for spending an extra $280 doesnt really work with me, anyway.  I know topres are top notch quality, not disputing that. Just saying. 'quiet' and even 'smooth' isnt 'automatically' a selling point. Different strokes.

TO me, a topre is like an Acura. You cant lose with it, if you dont mind paying for it. But it'll be so reliable and unassuming that it'll bring tears of boredom to your eyes.



thats what i say. My 7k honda civic 4 speed was one of the most fun cars I've ever driven.

Did you ever try a SIIG Mini touch? The one with white Alps in it? That was the main complaint I had with that board the darn thing just rattled to much. I ended up selling that one.

I picked up a Filco FKB89J from Japan that I thought was a imitation of the SIIG but it is not. It is much tighter and with a lighter key force (50-55g) the switch looks like a white Alps but is not at some point I'm going to have to find some time and take it apart and see what it is.

[aegrotatio]

I'm pretty sure the guy with the 'clicky' 3601 is trying to play a joke on us.

[aegrotatio]

She told me she'd be happy to answer anything else she could.  Anything else we should ask?

I have one.  Ask if they can make a keyboard that:
  1) The Caps Lock key has no "step" in it, just be a flat key
  2) A wide Enter key (not L-shaped).
  3) A wide Backspace key
  4) The Backslash key in the correct place above Enter.