Author Topic: Key Tronic - NEARLY as good as Topre/HHKB (Read 79349 times)

handyrandyrc · « **Reply #100 on:** Thu, 20 May 2010, 19:36:00 »

The E03600 and E06100 already have those features -- standard IBM layout. Normal wide enter key, backslash above enter, and backspace double-wide.

E03601 and E06101 are the L-shaped Enter key ones.

The only thing I'm not sure about is if they do/could/would make a non-stepped capslock. Interesting -- even this Dell D630 laptop I'm using has a stepped capslock key. And it's a laptop scissor board.

I went ahead and e-mailed to ask her about the non-stepped Capslock.

handyrandyrc · « **Reply #101 on:** Thu, 20 May 2010, 19:42:32 »

13-dollar E03600 on ebay with coiled PS/2 cable. I like it, but man, the guy wants 18 dollars for shipping!

ebay link

Ends in an hour.

wellington1869 · « **Reply #102 on:** Thu, 20 May 2010, 21:22:06 »

Quote from: handyrandyrc;184966

Sent a couple of questions to Key Tronic yesterday. Here is the contents/response...

Q: What is the difference between the E61xx and E36xx series? Is there a real difference internally? ( I see that 00 means IBM layout and the 01 means the L-shaped Enter key layout.)

A: The differences between the E061XX and E036XX series are:
size: the E061XX is smaller by an inch in both side to side and top to bottom. The difference is the case size, not the keys
feel: the E061XX product does use a different switch and will feel slightly different from the E036XX products.
switch life: the E061XX is rated to 20 million, whereas the E036XX is rated to 30 million lifecycles
warranty: model number dependent

Q: Which keyboards are your 'Lifetime' series keyboards that have the full warranty?

A: We have a series of keyboards that are in the Lifetime Series, which carry a ltd lifetime warranty and we also 2 other keyboards that have ltd lifetime warranties. Model numbers are CLASSIC-XX, DESIGNER-P2, TRACKBALL-XX, E03601P1 and E03601P2

I told them about the discussion we were having, and she thanked me for the link to the forum I sent her.

hey, this is very useful info, thanks for taking the time. As the mysteries of the keytronic are slowly peeled away.

It was nice of keytronic to take the time to give a thorough response, too.

Quote

She told me she'd be happy to answer anything else she could. Anything else we should ask?

yea - why is it so hard to find an E06100 (ie, US layout) in the US? Does she know where they are available?

Also, do they have a program where they can send review boards out? WE've had manufacturers do that before for boards we reviewed on this site.

wellington1869 · « **Reply #103 on:** Thu, 20 May 2010, 21:28:53 »

Quote from: rdjack21;184978

Did you ever try a SIIG Mini touch?

no, i went thru a mini board phase but now i'm back on full size boards. I'd probably like the mini touch tho. I did have a similar alps mini board from dsi (gray alps sliders but effectively a black alps board) which i did like quite a bit. Alps keytops do rattle naturally cuz there's only that one point of contact with which they connect to the slider. But thats just a part of the character/personality of that switch, I think.

maxlugar · « **Reply #104 on:** Thu, 20 May 2010, 22:31:46 »

Quote from: itlnstln;184933

I hate going into the grocery store wearing jeans. The managers harass me, because they think I'm trying to steal a summer sausage and a couple of grapefruits.

Nah, with you little Italian guys it looks more like you stole one Vienna sausage and a couple of grapes.

JK Sly, don't send someone out to break my knee caps...please

Otterclock · « **Reply #105 on:** Fri, 21 May 2010, 01:03:02 »

Quote from: wellington1869;184464

I'm plunging.

--6000 is virtually impossible to find anywhere even on ebay. So looks like if i'm going to try this, i'll have to get 3600 series.

--3600 series available everywhere, even brand new only $25, usb model. Looks like thats the one i'm getting.

I'll ram a camera up its butt soon as I get it.

Keytronic 6101

there's one. there were more the other day when I checked, I think. Looked at keytronic site and I only saw it in a "01" version with the small backspace. They appear to even sell them from their site for $15.50 and have a USB version in black. (link to their shop. it's listed towards the bottom-ish)

Also it looks like Newegg even carries them.

hughJ · « **Reply #106 on:** Fri, 21 May 2010, 02:25:23 »

ahhh... keytronic.

Been using my LT Designer now for about ~13 years, I fell in love with the original membrane design where they were all of equal (heavy) weight. Basically they are all weighted to the heaviest weight there is on the ergo membranes. Due to travel, lanparties, abuse, etc I had to replace the board several times, but after discovering all the new boards were softer ergonomic membranes (and also manufactured in a different country, with cheaper keys, etc) I've been having to juggle the old membrane into newer boards.

Sadly the original membrane is finally starting to wear out now after being through it's 3rd or 4th chassis. Really not sure where to go from here. Every other keyboard I've ever used feels too soft now. I feel lost.

wellington1869 · « **Reply #107 on:** Fri, 21 May 2010, 09:40:49 »

Quote from: Otterclock;185188

Keytronic 6101

there's one. there were more the other day when I checked, I think. Looked at keytronic site and I only saw it in a "01" version with the small backspace. They appear to even sell them from their site for $15.50 and have a USB version in black. (link to their shop. it's listed towards the bottom-ish)

ya i was trying to avoid small backspace and L-enter key

Quote

Also it looks like Newegg even carries them.

ah-ha. that one looks like it has normal keys (unless they used the wrong pic? I thought the *01 meant small backspace and L-enter key).

wellington1869 · « **Reply #108 on:** Fri, 21 May 2010, 09:42:11 »

Quote from: hughJ;185208

ahhh... keytronic.

Been using my LT Designer now for about ~13 years, I fell in love with the original membrane design where they were all of equal (heavy) weight. Basically they are all weighted to the heaviest weight there is on the ergo membranes. Due to travel, lanparties, abuse, etc I had to replace the board several times, but after discovering all the new boards were softer ergonomic membranes (and also manufactured in a different country, with cheaper keys, etc) I've been having to juggle the old membrane into newer boards.

Sadly the original membrane is finally starting to wear out now after being through it's 3rd or 4th chassis. Really not sure where to go from here. Every other keyboard I've ever used feels too soft now. I feel lost.

so the new LT ones have softer membranes? good to know.

ch_123 · « **Reply #109 on:** Fri, 21 May 2010, 09:56:18 »

Quote from: hughJ;185208

ahhh... keytronic.

Been using my LT Designer now for about ~13 years, I fell in love with the original membrane design where they were all of equal (heavy) weight. Basically they are all weighted to the heaviest weight there is on the ergo membranes. Due to travel, lanparties, abuse, etc I had to replace the board several times, but after discovering all the new boards were softer ergonomic membranes (and also manufactured in a different country, with cheaper keys, etc) I've been having to juggle the old membrane into newer boards.

Sadly the original membrane is finally starting to wear out now after being through it's 3rd or 4th chassis. Really not sure where to go from here. Every other keyboard I've ever used feels too soft now. I feel lost.

Get yourself a Model M... Seriously, if you want a stiff keyboard that's the way to go.

itlnstln · « **Reply #110 on:** Fri, 21 May 2010, 09:59:13 »

Quote from: ch_123;185340

Get yourself a Model M... Seriously, if you want a stiff keyboard that's the way to go.

Seconded. Of everything north of about 60g., Model Ms are far and away the best.

wellington1869 · « **Reply #111 on:** Fri, 21 May 2010, 11:17:35 »

well gang, i'm about to pull trigger on the 3600. Cheap enough to donate at the altar of science. It seems to be the one keytronics board that is universally (if sometimes grudgingly) admired.

Someone still needs to try the 6100 if it can be found (i have some doubts that the 6101 listed at newegg has normal layout despite the pic. I couldnt use it with small backspace or L-shaped enter key).

itlnstln · « **Reply #112 on:** Fri, 21 May 2010, 11:19:29 »

Quote from: wellington1869;185380

well gang, i'm about to pull trigger on the 3600.

Gang activity is not allowed here at Geekhack.

Otterclock · « **Reply #113 on:** Fri, 21 May 2010, 11:26:43 »

Quote

ah-ha. that one looks like it has normal keys (unless they used the wrong pic? I thought the *01 meant small backspace and L-enter key).

It is indeed the wrong pic (it shows a 3600 I think). Newegg has the wrong pic for at least one of the other keytronics they carry as well. I also dislike the small backspace, and it's the main thing keeping me from trying a 6000, though Im trying to convince myself that I would get used to it.

Going by the Keytronic site, the 6101 is the only style it comes in. I actually like the L shaped Enter, just not the backspace.

itlnstln · « **Reply #114 on:** Fri, 21 May 2010, 11:37:12 »

Not even over the ABS M1 or the Dell AT-101W? Surely, we have had a post like this for the Dell.

wellington1869 · « **Reply #115 on:** Fri, 21 May 2010, 14:37:54 »

Quote from: ripster;185386

Well, at post #134 somebody should buy it. We've never had this much discussion over a $20 keyboard.

done. bought the 3600, new, USB, $25 shipped. So i'll eventually produce a 3600 review

willhs · « **Reply #116 on:** Tue, 25 May 2010, 10:22:44 »

It seems like every time Keytronic is brought up, it is intellectually torn down by people who haven't used it and own much more expensive keyboards (google: cognitive dissonance). I have a cherry blue keyboard and my keytronic, and honestly I love the keytronic better.

As mentioned, the keytronic has a tactile response at the top of the keystroke, but it is gentle and weighted very appropriately. I can't tell it's weighted when I'm typing on it, but if I take one finger and check different keys it's obvious. I think that's the point of weighting -- to make it feel natural. It doesn't matter that stacking dimes on the keys doesn't give you the intellectual result you want. You don't stack dimes to type a manuscript.

I don't think the argument that Realforce keyboards are more durable holds up, considering Keytronics have been observed to last and Topre is, to my knowledge, not a 30+ year old company.

I suspect that Keytronic threads will continue to be put up on this board, and will continue to be dismissed.

ch_123 · « **Reply #117 on:** Tue, 25 May 2010, 10:37:33 »

And hopefully never will again...

audioave10 · « **Reply #118 on:** Tue, 25 May 2010, 10:43:55 »

Its at least better than average and the best $3 keyboard I've bought.

ch_123 · « **Reply #119 on:** Tue, 25 May 2010, 10:44:50 »

Nothing wrong with those Mac keyboards.... well, with that little amount of travel, there's nothing that can go wrong!

willhs · « **Reply #120 on:** Tue, 25 May 2010, 10:49:00 »

@ripster: "What did you say?" -- are you asking for clarification about a certain point?

Not trying to start an argument, but trying a keyboard at a doctor's office does not equal trying the keyboard. The Keytronic, in my opinion, is actually more tactile than my cherry blues (blues make clicks, but the only tactile feeling is when you bottom out), and definitely more tactile than scissor switches. You should go back to the doctor and use his/her keyboard some more. :-)

Mental Hobbit · « **Reply #121 on:** Tue, 25 May 2010, 10:58:13 »

Quote from: willhs;186664

It seems like every time Keytronic is brought up, it is intellectually torn down by people who haven't used it and own much more expensive keyboards (google: cognitive dissonance).

Actually most people here will agree that Keytronics are about the best affordable rubber dome keyboards that are still being made.

But obviously you can't claim they're comparable in any way to boards for which many members paid $250. What did you expect?

ch_123 · « **Reply #122 on:** Tue, 25 May 2010, 11:03:07 »

Quote from: willhs;186681

(blues make clicks, but the only tactile feeling is when you bottom out)

Lolwut?

willhs · « **Reply #123 on:** Tue, 25 May 2010, 11:06:06 »

@Mental Hobbit: We are in disagreement on that last point. I have cherry blues and keytronic P2 running in parallel (on different levels for standing and sitting at the computer), and I can absolutely tell you that it is not obvious that they aren't "comparable in any way." They are quite comparable, in fact, to the point where I'm not sure if your post was sarcasm -- and then I realize you probably haven't tried a keytronic.

I'm pretty serious about this -- google "cognitive dissonance." If you spend so much on a keyboard, it's hard to admit that it isn't worth it. I'm not saying that premium keyboards aren't worth a premium, but I am saying they're not worth $250 when compared to a $25 keytronic for the vast majority of users.

willhs · « **Reply #124 on:** Tue, 25 May 2010, 11:07:26 »

@ch_123: I am typing on a blue right now. It makes a click as I actuate it, but the actual tactile feedback is not nearly as good as the keytronic. Lolwut is not a solid rebuttal, but it's pretty much what I expected.

ch_123 · « **Reply #125 on:** Tue, 25 May 2010, 11:10:13 »

You said that there's no tactility in the blues except for when you bottom out. Which is not true - there is tactility in it which is at the same point where it clicks. Sure it's not as dramatic as some keyboards, but it's there nonetheless.

The goal is not always to have the most tactility, as tactility when done excessively or wrong can make the keyboard horrible to type on (case in point - Black Alps). There are lots of people who like Topre or Brown Cherry keyboards where the tactility is quite subtle. I've typed on rubber dome keyboards that are probably more tactile than my HHKB. That doesn't make them better to type on by any means. In addition, the Blue Cherries are probably lighter than the Keytronic rubber domes. There are all sorts of tradeoffs to be considered.

Want tactility? I bet the Keytronic has nothing on an IBM.

Quote

@Mental Hobbit: We are in disagreement on that last point. I have cherry blues and keytronic P2 running in parallel (on different levels for standing and sitting at the computer), and I can absolutely tell you that it is not obvious that they aren't "comparable in any way." They are quite comparable, in fact, to the point where I'm not sure if your post was sarcasm -- and then I realize you probably haven't tried a keytronic.

I'm pretty serious about this -- google "cognitive dissonance." If you spend so much on a keyboard, it's hard to admit that it isn't worth it. I'm not saying that premium keyboards aren't worth a premium, but I am saying they're not worth $250 when compared to a $25 keytronic for the vast majority of users.

And you came to this conclusion after using one type of mechanical keyboard? Thanks for freeing my mind, Sigmund...

itlnstln · « **Reply #126 on:** Tue, 25 May 2010, 11:18:16 »

Cherry blues and browns are a little different coming from a rubber dome since rubber domes are generally heavier. Cherry blues and browns need a light touch to get the most out of them. Hamfisting Cherrys isn't going to get you there. That said, it's easier to "work down" to these switches. For example, I went from BS to ALPS to Cherrys. Going from a fairly heavy switch to one of the lightest is a difficult transition.

All that said, in the end, feel is very subjective, and there's no reason why you shouldn't like the Keytronics.

willhs · « **Reply #127 on:** Tue, 25 May 2010, 11:22:51 »

I'm not saying that a ton of tactility is a great thing, but having a good bump at the top of the keystroke where the key actuates is ideal for me, and having weighted ergo keys is one of the big draws to the Realforce. I can see why, even if Keytronic doesn't do it as well as Topre (which has never been verified by long term, side by side testing, as far as I can tell).

Most of the discussion on Keytronic is intellectual, which makes it easy to dismiss. That's my point.

willhs · « **Reply #128 on:** Tue, 25 May 2010, 11:28:20 »

@ripster: I definitely think that your experience with high end keyboards dwarfs mine, and your testing is excellent, but I think real world, long term testing is important as well.

@itlnstln: I've used blues for a year and a half, and the keytronic for about a year. I know that mashing the blues is not the correct approach. It does take time to get the light touch down, I agree.

itlnstln · « **Reply #129 on:** Tue, 25 May 2010, 11:41:49 »

A bit? I thought they made him VP of the Keyboard Technology division or something. Stay-at-home dad my ass.

I have been using my HHKB pretty much full time for awhile now, so they must not suck too badly then.

Mental Hobbit · « **Reply #130 on:** Tue, 25 May 2010, 11:43:33 »

Quote from: willhs;186692

They are quite comparable, in fact, to the point where I'm not sure if your post was sarcasm -- and then I realize you probably haven't tried a keytronic.

I have tried a keytronic, and I liked it. What I haven't tried is a Topre. That's why I can enjoy this little brawl in a very relaxed state of mind.

Cherry Blues, on the other hand I know very well. Well enough to state that either your keyboard or your perception must be totally broken.

lmnop · « **Reply #131 on:** Tue, 25 May 2010, 11:45:12 »

what are some good Keytronic rubber dome keyboards?

lmnop · « **Reply #132 on:** Tue, 25 May 2010, 11:45:45 »

what are some good Keytronic keyboards?

itlnstln · « **Reply #133 on:** Tue, 25 May 2010, 11:47:26 »

Quote from: ripster;186722

haha! You're back to the HHKB. Told you to not sell it.

Keep your GF too. Remember when asked, "Do you think that there is only ONE person in the world you are meant to be with?" the correct answer is "Yes!". Not "Well.....statistically speaking.....".

I know, I know. I've been beating the crap out of it, and I think it's starting to smooth out a bit. I know the texture on the spacebar is.

ch_123 · « **Reply #134 on:** Tue, 25 May 2010, 11:48:37 »

This is the main one AFAIK -

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823131040

Mental Hobbit · « **Reply #135 on:** Tue, 25 May 2010, 11:49:26 »

You shouldn't have quoted the second part.

lmnop · « **Reply #136 on:** Tue, 25 May 2010, 11:52:41 »

Quote from: ch_123;186727

This is the main one AFAIK -

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823131040

thank you

willhs · « **Reply #137 on:** Tue, 25 May 2010, 11:58:56 »

Actually he first dug up an old Keytronic last August for comparison, in a thread I was involved in (along with you ripster, where you were a little more optimistic about it).

It was not much of an exhaustive comparison, and used possibly an older version of the membrane, judging by his description. Judging by the incredible list of expensive keyboards in his signature, he might be biased.

I'm not trying to be oppositional, and I'm not trying to say that premium keyboards are bad by any stretch. I do want to point out that Keytronics are probably the best price/performance. For some reviews of keytronics see Newegg reviews here and Amazon reviews here. There aren't a ton of reviews at either, and they aren't as analytical.

willhs · « **Reply #138 on:** Tue, 25 May 2010, 12:01:19 »

I have the Designer P2 that ch_123 linked. I love it. I think the same ergo membrane is in many of their keyboards now -- you can verify by going to their website. I'm pretty sure you can get the ergo on $10 keyboards.

ch_123 · « **Reply #139 on:** Tue, 25 May 2010, 12:05:59 »

Quote from: willhs;186736

Judging by the incredible list of expensive keyboards in his signature, he might be biased.

That's a nice cop out argument you've got going there... Clearly anyone who has a collection of top-notch keyboards can't be counted upon to have reliable opinions.

willhs · « **Reply #140 on:** Tue, 25 May 2010, 12:08:21 »

Again I'll recommend reading up on cognitive dissnonance. :-)

Also, if he does in fact work for the company, well... okay... I guess you win, man. No bias.

ch_123 · « **Reply #141 on:** Tue, 25 May 2010, 12:09:59 »

You're correct, obviously anyone who doesn't like Keytronic keyboards is suffering profound mental anguish.

handyrandyrc · « **Reply #142 on:** Tue, 25 May 2010, 12:57:15 »

I did get an answer back on one of the questions...

Quote

...unfortunately all of our products have the "baseball cap" style CAPS LOCK keys.

So no go on a flat CAPS LOCK. I have not gotten an answer yet on why my measurements are so far off what is claimed, and whether it means the membrane has gotten stiff with age?

ch_123 · « **Reply #143 on:** Tue, 25 May 2010, 13:05:40 »

If you read the really fine print, you'll see that the figures have a certain margin of error. Sometimes the margin of error is quite generous indeed...

willhs · « **Reply #144 on:** Tue, 25 May 2010, 13:07:55 »

They are still weighted logically (i.e. the pinky finger sees the least weight), and in practice it works as it is intended to. There's no science behind the exact weighting used in either Topres or Keytronics.

willhs · « **Reply #145 on:** Tue, 25 May 2010, 13:08:39 »

Quote from: ripster;186757

They use different nickels at Keytronics.

Yeah, ones that don't cost $250. :-)

edit: I'll add that all negative comments thus far are made by people with expensive keyboards and no real experience with the keytronic.

itlnstln · « **Reply #146 on:** Tue, 25 May 2010, 13:32:06 »

I have used the Keytronic. It was my first keyboard when I went to the corporate side at work. It was pretty average. One of the main aspects to the whole rubber dome versus mechanical switch thing is how the two differ in operation. Rubber domes require you to press the key all the way down, thus putting stress on your joints, slowing down typing speed, etc. Mechanical switches (including Topres and BS) do not require a full keypress to activate the switch and allow you to "glide" better over the keys. (This is among other, more subjective traits like "mushiness," "bounciness," etc.)

Do keep in mind that many of us are here because we used keyboards like the Keytronics, and we are looking for something we think is better. Also, folks like Ripster, rdjack21, dijamatic, myself and others have been using computers longer than you have been alive. We have used just about every keyboard on the market. Just as you have the opinion that the Keytronics is a good keyboard, we also have the well-formed opinion that it's not. We aren't discouraging your opinion, just don't expect a whole lot of people to agree with you.

willhs · « **Reply #147 on:** Tue, 25 May 2010, 13:42:56 »

@ripster: Please link to a source that says 35g is better than 55g for pinkies. Or, God forbid, you could try the keyboard.

@itlnstln: Then you haven't used the ergo Keytronics, by your description. Sorry I didn't specify that. I thought that was the topic of the thread, though.

wellington1869 · « **Reply #148 on:** Tue, 25 May 2010, 13:43:07 »

Quote from: itlnstln;186718

Stay-at-home dad my ass.

I always wanted to be a stay-at-home dad.

My keytronic ships on the 28th, amazon sure is taking their time with this one. Cant wait, after all this build-up.

LordGurciullo · « **Reply #149 on:** Tue, 25 May 2010, 13:44:04 »

Topre in my opinion is worth every cent. Let's not forget the rows being angled and the quality etc. etc..

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Author Topic: Key Tronic - NEARLY as good as Topre/HHKB (Read 79349 times)