Key Tronic - NEARLY as good as Topre/HHKB

[ch_123]

@ripster:  Please link to a source that says 35g is better than 55g for pinkies.

He said it was pretty logical. I can also see why this is pretty logical. Perhaps this is one of those things you need a $250 keyboard to understand.

What's funny here is that I've never spent $250 on a keyboard. Not even half of that...

[wellington1869]

I dont know where i fall in this pile since I bought everything and right now my favorite boards are under $50 and mostly rubber dome.  I've been accused of suffering mental anguish too ;-) but i'm pretty sure i'm not ;-)

the only thing i've learned from my year and a half of keyboard-acquisition-syndrome is the old cliche,  'to each their own', seems to be more true than ever, when it comes to keyboards.  (Cue accusations of relativism).

[wellington1869]

anyone want to hire me as a stay-at-home dad?  I"m great with fixing things around the house, I know how to make hospital corners, and I can get most types of stains out. Dogs and kids love me. No cats, though.
and for you, i'll learn how to cook.

[willhs]

@wellington: Well said.  Looking forward to your thoughts.

@ch_123:  Glad you got good deals on the keyboards in your sig, but there are definitely $250+ keyboards in there (HHKB Pro?).  You and I can just agree to disagree on everything in the world, and then we can get on with some real impressions of the keyboard.

[ricercar]

My Keytronics are in no way the same class as my imaginary Topre that I've never tried out for even an hour at the doctor's office.

Wait a second. Isn't that the exact same claim of the OP? Damn me.

[wellington1869]

That was easy.

Show Image

your pinky is curved.

[willhs]

QED I guess.

[ch_123]

I paid less for my HHKB than I did for my Filco

[wellington1869]

Emacs pinky.

Common Unix problem.

I imagine that's why they all wear beards out of shame.

interesting. I appear to have Emacs penis.

[willhs]

I'm not saying that premium keyboards aren't worth a premium, but I am saying they're not worth $250 when compared to a $25 keytronic for the vast majority of users.

@ripster:  This has been my point from the start.

@ch_123: You never give up arguing, good for you.

[ch_123]

Who said I was arguing? Merely pointing out the great deal I got on my HHKB.

[ricercar]

I appear to have Emacs penis.

No that's Eunich's penis.

[wellington1869]

No that's Eunich's penis.

I paid $250 for this penis but a $3 penis works just fine.

[ricercar]

Your $3 penis must have come from a better batch than mine. I had to start using vi a few years ago.

[willhs]

@ripster: ugh, then you do not agree with the OP at all, which is fine.

[wellington1869]

Your $3 penis must have come from a better batch than mine. I had to start using vi a few years ago.

i use notepad but that probably reflects badly on my penis.

vi would probably set my penis straight.

[wellington1869]

No that's Eunich's penis.

i see what you did there

[Rajagra]

I'm pretty serious about this -- google "cognitive dissonance."
...
I'm not saying that premium keyboards aren't worth a premium, but I am saying they're not worth $250 when compared to a $25 keytronic for the vast majority of users.

Might want to look up irony while you're at it. Cognitive dissonance works both ways. Consider:

"I know the $250 keyboard is superior to the $25 one. I know it will last many years if treated properly, so the cost is insignificant in the long term. But I don't like shelling out that much money at once. So I'm going to convince myself that it isn't worth it."

I don't want to be argumentative, but some of your posts in this thread make statements that are just plain inaccurate.

Factual inexactitudes trump cognitive dissonance.

[wellington1869]

No that's Eunich's penis.

[willhs]

@ripster:  I think there's a major misunderstanding between us.  I am just supporting the OP's point.  Buy whatever keyboard is worth it to you.

@Rajagra:  Cognitive dissonance does work both ways, but you misunderstand the entire premise of cognitive dissonance (and irony, ironically).  Cognitive dissonance is when you completely disregard the external object without understanding it.  I OWN and USE both a Keytronic and a cherry blue board on the same desk.

I'm done with these petty arguments, that have basically spammed the entire thread without providing any real insight, on the off chance someone gets here searching for a better typing experience.

[wellington1869]

well, now the world knows about ripster's weirdly curved pinky. I think thats worth something.

[Rajagra]

@Rajagra:  Cognitive dissonance does work both ways, but you misunderstand the entire premise of cognitive dissonance (and irony, ironically).

You use the word "ironically" in the same sense as I implied. So if I misunderstand it, you do too. Unless you were being ironic. See, I know what it means.

As for cognitive dissonance, my feelings about it are ambivalent.

[itlnstln]

I am beginning to think there is some epic trollage going on here.

[wellington1869]

Not my pinky BTW.

Damn. In that case the world knows something about my penis.

[handyrandyrc]

I am beginning to think there is some epic trollage going on here.

I troll you not!  

[kishy]

What is this I don't even

[audioave10]

Ok. How's this for a comparison?
A Keytronic 3601...keys bottom out - cost $3.
A Deck Legend "Toxic"...keys bottom out - cost $178 (shipped)
They bottom out with me because I'm not used to them or any serious keys yet(and they are linear).
That extra $175 gets me green backlighting that matches my green fans and Laser LED on my case.
The extra quality is apparent. For the average person that might be a "too large" of a difference.
I can see where for you serious typists, who use the tactile-feel method, that the difference
could be substantial. I guess I'm right in the middle of this because I don't yet have the experience
to make a claim one way or the other. I like them both!
I'm thinking about trying this next...

http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_87key&pid=fkbn87meb

[itlnstln]

In the end, it really just depends on what you want to get out of a keyboard. If you just want to game with a few e-mails here and there, a good quality rubber dome 'board will work just fine.  If you are a typist, I think you really owe it to yourself to jump on a quality keyboard and train yourself to use the features of the switches to your advantage. Once you break the habit of mashing keys, which can take awhile, you will find that typing is much easier and faster as well as easier on your hands.  Again, this is just my opinion.

[itlnstln]

That's definitely the best approach.

[itlnstln]

Nope, move along now.

[didjamatic]

Ok. How's this for a comparison?
A Keytronic 3601...keys bottom out - cost $3.
A Deck Legend "Toxic"...keys bottom out - cost $178 (shipped)
They bottom out with me because I'm not used to them or any serious keys yet(and they are linear).
That extra $175 gets me green backlighting that matches my green fans and Laser LED on my case.
The extra quality is apparent. For the average person that might be a "too large" of a difference.
I can see where for you serious typists, who use the tactile-feel method, that the difference
could be substantial. I guess I'm right in the middle of this because I don't yet have the experience
to make a claim one way or the other. I like them both!
I'm thinking about trying this next...

http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_87key&pid=fkbn87meb

There is more to a keyboard than whether it bottoms out.  One could say a crappy car and a nice car both drive so they aren't much different.  What matters is what is important to you, that's what will determine whether a nice keyboard is worth it.

[audioave10]

That's what I learned on...at 45 WPM. I was 15 years old.

[wellington1869]

In the end I generally ignore everybody else's opinion and just go on the facts.

facts need interpretation... i think thats what makes things more complicated when it comes to likes and dislikes.  Also count me among those who say that, for example, 60g of nickel-force on a key can ultimately feel very different depending on the switch type. Even if they all show up as 60g on the nickel-meter, doesnt mean they'll feel the same on the downstroke.

keyboarding is more like zen than science, if you ask me.

[wellington1869]

Did you say something?


Seriously though, advertising an Ergo board with numbers WAY off isn't cool. I don't believe it's a tolerances or age issue.    It's generally called FALSE ADVERTISING.

Keyboard Manufacturer Specs

Reality Bites!

to be honest i'm not sure the nickels method is what they use at the keyboard factory. (actually, i doubt it is). So it might simply be the method of measurement that is different here, and not necessarily some kind of 'gross error' on their part.

my suspicion in this regard is reinforced by the fact that the weighting numbers are off across the keyboard.  In the topre case, for instance, when they made a gross error in their published spec [the realforce 87u box says the lightest keys are 30g, while leopold said it was 35g, and nickel-method said 35g), there's more of an argument to be made that it was a genuine error, since there was just one set of keys was way off from the published spec. [The 45g and 55g keys were reported as consistent across all three sources]

Going by the arguments here, i dont have anything against folks who buy $250 keyboards (i did it myself), but yea at $250 they should get the published specs right, while at $3 i'm fairly inclined to let them slide a bit.

[wellington1869]

The goal is to type accurately at a rapid pace.   How you get there depends on the individual's style.

yup. I bottom out like J-Lo and i still type 100wpm, which is more than fast enough for my needs (and faster than all my friends).

[wellington1869]

I wish amazon would hurry up and mail this damn board already.  Sometimes i feel like they deliberately slow down shipments when they're promoting their 'amazon prime' 2 day shipping service (which has an annual fee). They've got one of those promotions going on right now.  Coincidence that regular free shipping is taking 10 days now? I normally get my amazon packages in 3 days regardless.

[wellington1869]

35g vs 60g  is quite a bit.  Should be quite easy to feel the difference.

thats what i mean. Thats why i think the measurement method must be different. Also cuz the difference is there right across all the keys. Its consistent. I'm guessing they're using a different approach. Or maybe their definition of resistance isnt the weight at the top of the stroke but on the downstroke. We dont know for sure unless we talk with a technician at the factory, basically. I'm just pointing out that a) that difference is huge which may mean its not an accident; b) that difference is consistent across the keys.

(and c) for $3 i have to care less.)

[Mental Hobbit]

In the end I generally ignore everybody else's opinion and just go on the facts.

And then you interpret the facts till they match your prejudice. Just as everbody else does.

[wellington1869]

I think there's an argument to be made that 'stop-weight at top of stroke' isnt a good indicator of comparative resistance.

like i said, 2 keys with 60g weight at top of stroke can still feel very different depending on the switch mechanism. Its possible that someone at some of these companies would have made an argument for "effective resistance" rather than "top-of-stroke weight" and then come up with a way to measure effective resistance, whcih might be more indicative of the relative resistance while typing.

the "top-of-stroke" weight really only measures initial resistance. But some switches give way to near-zero resistance after the initial resistance; others feel full of friction all the way down. These will feel very different in terms of resistance while typing, even if both measure at 60g at top of stroke.

[wellington1869]

All methods of measuring key activation force would give the same results.  Elementary math.  Monotonic function until the key is recognized.

thats not true and you're not listening.  top-of-stroke resistance can be  different from effective resistance, and arguably the latter is more important. The latter would give different gram numbers. I'm questioning the usefulness of that single measurement and I wouldnt be surprised if others at these keyboarding companies have questioned it too.

 the nickels method is very limiting because it isolates and measures one single thing (initial resistance or the tactile 'notch') in the switch dynamics. I wouldnt ever make a decision based on what the nickel methods told me, when choosing a switch.  I'd take it for what it is  - one measure of one aspect of the switch. I'd need information on its other dynamics before making a decision about 'resistance'.

Keytronics is definitely LYING THROUGH THEIR TEETH.

now you're just hating for the sake of hating  Yea, we know you like filcos. Noted.

[wellington1869]

I also find the Zen Theory of Keyboards to be laughable.  

lol, i know you do.  You've always preferred dictatorships of taste.  You've made that pretty clear

[wellington1869]

You're not listening.

Activation point is at or after the tactile point on all switches (except linears and even there as long as you pull up Notepad while doing the test it's pretty easy to measure).

no, you're not listening :

[nickels] measures one single thing (initial resistance or the tactile 'notch') in the switch dynamics.... I'd take it for what it is - one measure of one aspect of the switch.

the "top-of-stroke" weight really only measures initial resistance. But some switches give way to near-zero resistance after the initial resistance; others feel full of friction all the way down. These will feel very different in terms of resistance while typing, even if both measure at 60g at top of stroke.

hence zen theory remains important even in discussion about 'resistance'. And we dont know how keytronics approached the issue (effective resistance or initial resistance?) if their published numbers are that far off.

[wellington1869]

yea, its fun. tho i'm right and you're wrong ;-D

[itlnstln]

You have to push through the initial resistance to get the switch to activate.  Therefore, ripster's ripOmeter is valid.  You can't have the switches come to a rest after this point, so you still have to use a certain amount of force to push the switch down.  Who cares where the 60g. point is?  Whether it's 60g. on a Cherry black or 60g. on a rubber dome, you still have to use the same amount of force on the switch at some point on the stroke.

[wellington1869]

You have to push through the initial resistance to get the switch to activate.  Therefore, ripster's ripOmeter is valid.  You can't have the switches come to a rest after this point, so you still have to use a certain amount of force to push the switch down.  Who cares where the 60g. point is?  Whether it's 60g. on a Cherry black or 60g. on a rubber dome, you still have to use the same amount of force on the switch at some point on the stroke.

example -- while typing, for effective resistance (whether your fingers tire, whether you feel that its a heavy or light switch) the 60g point can be irrelevant if the rest of the downstroke is light, and it can also be irrelevant if the rest of the downstroke is as heavy.

so first point is effective resistance vs initial resistance. The latter is only one aspect of the switch dynamics, and so isnt good as a comparative measurement of resistance. It would make sense to try to capture effective resistance rather than initial resistance, would be more comparative. Alternately would make sense to publish the resistance curve rather than simply the initial 'notch' resistance figure.

second point is If keytronics numbers are that far off across the board, I wouldnt be surprised if they are publishing effective downstroke resistance rather than initial 'notch' resistance.

third point is that therefore the nickels method is one method and there's no inherent need to assume all keyboard makers think about the concept of 'resistance' in those nickel terms.  Anymore than we have to. It measures the notch; thats really all it measures. That 'notch-weight' may or may not be indicative of whether the switch feels heavy or normal or even light during and after actual normal typing. It can indicate it, but one needs more information.

[wellington1869]

Technically we're both kinda right - it's the cumulative area underneath the force curve that determines the WORK (FxD) of the entire switch stroke.  Activation force is just one part of that (although a damn fine proxy in my opinion).

i'd agree with that, tho that means i now have to go find some other way to entertain myself Maybe i'll go do some actual work

I agree its a good proxy, to a point anyway. Just didnt want it to become so definitive that we cant imagine a) other reasonable scenarios in the keytronics factory b) allow for other reasonable interpretations of key-effect on users.

[itlnstln]

"Work" would be an interesting study.  I would like to take switches with similar resistances (like 45 g. Topres and Cherry browns) and see what the difference in work would be.  My completely unscientific observation would be that I would do less work on the Cherry browns, because of the springiness in the upstroke despite the downstrokes being fairly similar resistance-wise.

[wellington1869]

"Work" would be an interesting study.  I would like to take switches with similar resistances (like 45 g. Topres and Cherry browns) and see what the difference in work would be.  My completely unscientific observation would be that I would do less work on the Cherry browns, because of the springiness in the upstroke despite the downstrokes being fairly similar resistance-wise.

you mean "work" as in physics?  that would be interesting, actually. and might be one way to capture (put a measurement on) some of the wider "holistic" and "dynamic" switch differences.

[itlnstln]

you mean "work" as in physics?  that would be interesting, actually.

That's the one.  I would like to study my work, but that wouldn't be very interesting.

[Rajagra]

I'm reminded of my favourite quote:

"Measure what is important, don't make important what you can measure"
-Robert McNamara (US Secretary of State for Defence during the Vietnam War) advising his air force chiefs, when he discovered that they were using the number of buildings destroyed by bombs as a critical success factor.

So the question is, who is blanket bombing us with dodgy info? Although the ripometer test is based on static force, I'm sure we can agree that the force that allows the switch to rise back above the actuation point should be lower than the manufacturer's claimed actuation force. If it is higher, then the manufacturer's claim must be inaccurate.