Author Topic: Why Alps keycap group buys will continue to fail; and what can be done about it.  (Read 16922 times)

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Offline dante

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I started an IC at the end of 2014 for TaoHao Alps keycaps. Unfortunately that simply didn't come close to generating the interest I had hoped.  January 1st I ran a little experiment: I locked the thread with no explanation.

And waited...

And waited...

Until today (February 28th) I heard from no one; no "why did the thread get locked down?" or "what happened?"  Nothing.

Since then the SP Delta Blue Alps GB failed; which I thought obtained a good number of folks who were "interested" to make to happen - but no.


We have to face the reality that [MX compatible] custom keycaps are a niche - and Alps custom are a niche within a niche.

So I only see a few ways forward - and feel free to chime in if you think you've got a better solution:

BTW: I won't address Matias because they/he are shouldering a lot of burden with paying for factory tooling costs for PBT.  That said, from bits and pieces I hear stock ones won't be here until 2016 at the earliest.  And even if they make it I didn't see options for different colors besides black/white and will likely only be lasered or blank.  I'm not even sure if side printing is an option.

1. As fans we put some pressure on KBParadise to start sourcing TaoBao keycaps.  The number one complaint I hear about the V60MTS is that the keycaps are at best "meh" or at worst "down right terrible."  From my conversations with Daniel at KBP I'm not even sure if they believe people will pay more for PBT's.  For example, would you guys be opposed to buying a V60MTS/V80MTS for around $150-$175 if it came with TaoBao PBT?  What is your threshhold?  I know the recent MX Miami PBT's have been hot-hot-hot; maybe ask if it is possible to do a run of 500 limited boards split across 3 switch types?  Sort of "Year of the ..." limited edition but with Alps switches.

2. Get MassDrop involved.  I know this will be as popular as asking for certain banned members to be reinstated - but hear me out.  Yes the shipping is a bit killer sometimes, yes on most of the drops you are not saving much; but they do have some very rare boards/components that normally are very difficult / pain in the butt to find.  MD already has a relationship with TaoHao; I'm not sure if someone reading this "knows" someone within the inner circle that can provide a nudge?  When I read the comments in the V60MTS MD GB's the keycaps are #1 item that cause a restraint from purchasing.

Other than that - I don't know.  Unfortunately Alps is so unpopular that it's crazy asking people to buy a keyset even if they don't find it aesthetically pleasing to "help the cause."

Some folks are just going to be left behind  :-X

« Last Edit: Sat, 28 February 2015, 14:49:57 by dante »

Offline nubbinator

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Tai Hao Alps failed because they had obscene MOQs and I seem to remember some stabilizer funkiness.  Delta Blues didn't get enough exposure and marketing and I think the low MOQ also hurt it.  Since it didn't have traction at the beginning with a ton of commits, it made it really hard to get people to commit as it went on. 

SP Alps could do it if we had vendor support, once more people get Alps boards (V60 or Infiniti), if we had a MassDrop style commit at function, and if we could get it more visibility on DT, GH, r/mk, and anywhere else that people would be interested in Alps.
« Last Edit: Sat, 28 February 2015, 14:50:34 by nubbinator »

Offline dante

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Tai Hao Alps failed because they had obscene MOQs and I seem to remember some stabilizer funkiness.  Delta Blues didn't get enough exposure and marketing and I think the low MOQ also hurt it.  Since it didn't have traction at the beginning with a ton of commits, it made it really hard to get people to commit as it went on. 

SP Alps could do it if we had vendor support, once more people get Alps boards (V60 or Infiniti), if we had a MassDrop style commit at function, and if we could get it more visibility on DT, GH, r/mk, and anywhere else that people would be interested in Alps.

There were no issues with the TaoHao Alps.  They all worked cleanly on the V60MTS.  They also supplied Alps keycaps for a lot of boards in the 80's.

Offline fohat.digs

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I think that the problem is the modifiers and stabilizers.

For me to fork over big bucks and still not get a good-looking key set is a deal-killer.

My primary Alps boards are a pair of Omnikey 101s with blues and Matias (the quiet variants), and a Filco Zero with blues.

My secondaries are a couple of AT101Ws with orange Alps.

Could they accommodate any of those basic common models with a full complement of pieces?
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Offline dante

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Could they accommodate any of those basic common models with a full complement of pieces?

They can; the problem is - that is rolled into the MOQ.  So if it's 500 sets, every additional keycap is going to jack up the price so much.

Offline daerid

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Matias needs to break down and start putting MX compatible stems on their switches. They'd probably see a decent boost in sales if you could buy a Tactile/Quiet Pro and just plop a set of PBT caps on it

Offline chyros

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I might've been more interested if I didn't have lots of Alps caps lying around xD .
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Offline brimborion

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I joined GH mid January and didn't have any Alps keyboards until not long after, otherwise I might have jumped in your group buy if it they were colors and profile I liked and I could figure out how to do it.

I'd pay a premium for PBT at KBParadise if I bought another of their keyboards. I suppose I am dreaming if I think PBT are going to be $25 for a plain set like we see with Cherry MX. I don't think their ABS caps are terrible at all, but maybe I just have poor taste?

Cheap blank, or black on white or white on black PBTs I think are a better way to get the ball rolling than a color scheme that would court more indecision over preference; pricier colored schemes could follow? Sometimes I will throw money at something I don't like just to help out, but I am still learning about keycaps right now and am less likely to invest in a keycap group buy.

Also, the very presence of keyboards other than the Matias branded ones might boost interest alone. KBParadise could become popular; I am sure people are ready to try non Cherry MX switches and not pay the Topre tax.  Now this Infinity group buy will get a few more people ordering Matias switches who will be looking for additional caps too.

I'm sure I am not representative, but there's my noob perspective.
« Last Edit: Sat, 28 February 2015, 15:33:15 by brimborion »
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Offline Hypersphere

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I am a recent convert to Matias switches. The switches are great, and I think more people would buy Matias-switch keyboards if excellent keycap options were available. On my V60 Matias boards, I am using blank black mods and spacebars from Matias, and I've sourced dye-sub PBT alphanumerics from IBM 5140 keyboards. However, it would be far better if there were direct commercial sources for Alps/Matias-mount keycaps and more variety. To this end, I would support just about anything that could work, including getting Massdrop involved.

Offline CPTBadAss

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With a Cherry keycap set, there's a nice established standard set. ANSI 1.25X. I think if you check 20 GBs, 19 of them will have that set included.

With Alps boards, there are less modern boards which are Alps compatible. They're not that popular anyways. So you have a deluge of older vintage boards which have different layouts. So it seems like a lot of people aren't even aware that there are new modern Alps compatible boards coming out. I would say the Infinity was the first big push. The Duck boards were a niche within a niche within a niche.

I think because of the lack of info and advertising on Alps out there, coupled with the low number of people who are into Alps, means there there is low demand. Low demand coupled with far too many personal requests which people try and accommodate.

I think that Badwrench has the right idea with making a modern mod set and color pack. I don't think anything with X on Beige or White will be good because most available Alps caps right now have those colors. X on Black might be nice. X on Grey might be nice. I'd prefer colors.

What turned me off about PMK is that I had to lock up $200+ until the buy was over. That is far too much to tie up. I don't like that system. I can't understand why it's not like the gas station or Massdrop where they hold $1 first. Massdrop's idea of running cap sets with a board was a good idea too. It might be cool to see a GH60 Alps + keycaps buy. Or an accompanied buy.

What I think isn't helping is negativity and complaining. Educating people, using a different distributor besides PMK, helping bring more custom or new modern Alps boards to market, and cutting down options are all things that might help in my opinion. Catering to one person's request will really be amplified in any Alps buy right now just because of the low adoption rate. And I think this the title of this thread won't help. There's little Alps information out there and now someone trying to get into it will see "Why Alps group buys will continue to fail".
« Last Edit: Sat, 28 February 2015, 15:56:59 by CPTBadAss »

Offline dante

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What I think isn't helping is negativity and complaining. Educating people, using a different distributor besides PMK, helping bring more custom or new modern Alps boards to market, and cutting down options are all things that might help in my opinion. Catering to one person's request will really be amplified in any Alps buy right now just because of the low adoption rate. And I think this the title of this thread won't help. There's little Alps information out there and now someone trying to get into it will see "Why Alps group buys will continue to fail".

Maybe the title was a little sensationalist :D  I might have hoped a secret MD spy would come by and write "OH NO YOU DIDN" and prove me wrong.

I think I mentioned in my original IC that I wasn't very happy with the options I presented - but I picked the most popular keysets that have recently sold well - and were more or less neutral.  [Call me crazy but in the last month I've really taken to the Miama PBT's that TaoHao created.  I still think they are freaking hideous - but I can't help loving them at the same time. :)]

Regardless of where the keycaps come from - there is always going to be a burden on someone.  A burden on TaoHao is several days of set up time just to make the keycaps for a reduced MOQ [they originally wanted 1,000 minimum!!!] Or KBP/someone to warehouse/take a chance on these keycaps with a big order.

I know it's "IMPOSSIBLE" but I hope there is a part of Matias brain still working on a solution to a cruciform Alps switch; but if he had any faith that it was possible I'm sure he wouldn't be spending $$$$$ on PBT molding.  Still ... that has been put on hold until 2016 so there is still time. :D

Offline Hak Foo

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I think we need to recognize that we won't be able to 1000% cover every obscure ALPS board.

We can address this in three ways:

* Stabilizers:  Boards that are built to accomodate Costar Stabilizers can accept ALPS-stabilizer keycaps by using the wires and stabilizer inserts from a sacrificial ALPS-stabilized board like an junk-worthy AT101W or AEKII  Boards that accept ALPS-style stabilizers, however, cannot go the other way-- the clips to hold the stabilizer wire on long keys are often too far apart to accept the Costar stabilizer wires.

To me, this means the best way to go is to focus on someone who can make ALPS-stabilized caps.  This is probably Tai Hao more than Signature Plastics, to be frank.

* Keycap coverage.  Yes, we're not going to get everyone, but we can pick sensible targets.  If you start with an ANSI 104 layout with 1.25x modifiers, that covers AT101Ws, ABS M1s, KBP V60s, and Ducky 1008/1087XMs (assuming they do the stabilizer mod mentioned above).  A 1.5-1-1.5-7-1.5-1-1.5 bottom row will cover Matias, Omnikey 101s, AT101s, and plenty of other vintage ANSI 101-layout boards.

The moment you bring in trying to support a big-ass enter, it dramatically complicates the whole situation.  No two are laid out quite the same.  But if we can cover those "mainstream ANSI 101 and 104" boards, we can satisfy a lot of people.  Most people-- even ALPS fans-- aren't wedded to specific bigass layout boards, especially now that there are a lot of switch-swap services out there

* Finally, for those people who can't compromise, but might want to participate, let's look at tame "compatible" colours.  I had doubleshots from a Focus 2001 on my board for a while; the layout missed a few keys, but the plain colours blended tolerably with the original lasered crapcaps.  By starting with a colour selection that's neutral and non-aggressive, it can be successfully mixed with existing keycaps without creating unicorn vomit.
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Offline Matias

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Thanks to everyone pushing for this...

We are about to start work on the Matias 60% project.  One of its goals is to nail down a universal solution for the stabilizer problem for new/old ALPS caps and Cherry caps.  That part if it is very close to being done.  In fact, the mods on the Ergo Pro already incorporate some of those ideas -- the left Shift key has stab wire very similar to a Cherry one.  The Infinity Keyboard also incorporates those ideas.

Doing an ALPS switch with a Cherry stem isn't a solution, because the size & shape of the switches are different and there would be intereference.

Also, the Ergo Pro and 60% have non-standard key sizes for which only we have tooling, so ultimately I think we're going to have to solve at least part of this problem ourselves.

Finally, I can tell you that we've been talking to Massdrop about how to solve this, and I'm hoping we can work out a way to get it done.  They have a great platform, perfectly suited to solving this problem.


Offline jacobolus

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1. As fans we put some pressure on KBParadise to start sourcing TaoBao keycaps.  The number one complaint I hear about the V60MTS is that the keycaps are at best "meh" or at worst "down right terrible." [...] would you guys be opposed to buying a V60MTS/V80MTS for around $150-$175 if it came with TaoBao PBT?
Which Taobao keycaps? I haven’t seen any new PBT Alps caps for sale, on Taobao or anywhere else. (Note that Taobao is a site like ebay/amazon, not a keycap vendor.)

Does anyone know who the keycap vendor is that Matias uses (I think it’s the same for Alps caps from KBP)?

Quote
2. Get MassDrop involved. [...] I'm not sure if someone reading this "knows" someone within the inner circle that can provide a nudge?

Keyboard stuff at MassDrop is mostly one dude plus a couple other dudes who spend tiny bits of time on it here and there... and yeah, he’s definitely interested in Alps stuff. (Which is why they’re offering Matias switches on all their new keyboard designs: Infinity, redesigned Ergodox if it ever happens, etc.)

Anyway, I think MassDrop is happy to try to source anything, as long as there’s proof of demand, and an obvious way to get the goods. Go start a poll on their site, and if you can get a few hundred people to vote for one of the options, you can probably get MassDrop to try a drop.
« Last Edit: Sun, 01 March 2015, 19:45:17 by jacobolus »

Offline jacobolus

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Matias needs to break down and start putting MX compatible stems on their switches. They'd probably see a decent boost in sales if you could buy a Tactile/Quiet Pro and just plop a set of PBT caps on it
More trouble than it’s worth IMO. They’d need to totally redesign and retool the switch, for marginal benefit. (And then to use it anywhere, they’d need to redesign all their keyboards.) They’ll get better results out of tooling up new keycaps.

Offline jacobolus

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The Infinity Keyboard also incorporates those ideas.
Not yet it doesn’t (in either of the first two drops), but as soon as you send me and/or the MassDrop guys some sample stabilizer inserts, plate clips, and wires, we can design that into future versions. :)
« Last Edit: Sun, 01 March 2015, 19:45:38 by jacobolus »

Offline jdcarpe

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With a Cherry keycap set, there's a nice established standard set. ANSI 1.25X. I think if you check 20 GBs, 19 of them will have that set included.

With Alps boards, there are less modern boards which are Alps compatible. They're not that popular anyways. So you have a deluge of older vintage boards which have different layouts. So it seems like a lot of people aren't even aware that there are new modern Alps compatible boards coming out. I would say the Infinity was the first big push. The Duck boards were a niche within a niche within a niche.

I think because of the lack of info and advertising on Alps out there, coupled with the low number of people who are into Alps, means there there is low demand. Low demand coupled with far too many personal requests which people try and accommodate.

I think that Badwrench has the right idea with making a modern mod set and color pack. I don't think anything with X on Beige or White will be good because most available Alps caps right now have those colors. X on Black might be nice. X on Grey might be nice. I'd prefer colors.

What turned me off about PMK is that I had to lock up $200+ until the buy was over. That is far too much to tie up. I don't like that system. I can't understand why it's not like the gas station or Massdrop where they hold $1 first. Massdrop's idea of running cap sets with a board was a good idea too. It might be cool to see a GH60 Alps + keycaps buy. Or an accompanied buy.

What I think isn't helping is negativity and complaining. Educating people, using a different distributor besides PMK, helping bring more custom or new modern Alps boards to market, and cutting down options are all things that might help in my opinion. Catering to one person's request will really be amplified in any Alps buy right now just because of the low adoption rate. And I think this the title of this thread won't help. There's little Alps information out there and now someone trying to get into it will see "Why Alps group buys will continue to fail".

I know we have talked a little about this before, but I'm certain this is correct.

The only way an Alps keycap GB is going to be successful, is if there is a modern, 60% or TKL Alps keyboard that uses standard ANSI layout. If people buy that keyboard, they would be interested in a set of keycaps for it. A plate could be designed to use Costar stabilizers with Alps switch holes, so that SP's stabilizer mounts (MX) could be used.

I'm almost positive this is the only way. And be assured, it's something I'm working on.
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Offline minh278

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The reason why it would fail(in my opinion) is that there is a lack of want for alps keycaps. I have an alps keyboard, but due to it not being my main i do not care for the most quality keycaps(the ones on it are fine) and most old keyboards are great donors for new alps keycaps and even rubberdomes(some dell-quietkeys and hp).

-I think that alps just needs to be popularized for this to work(abuse the possible rgb factor? seems to attract alot of people k70rgb)

-I feel that an alps keyset would need to be compatible with older alps keyboards(layout-wise)(i think a majority of people have old alps rather than the new matias ones)
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Offline Chromako

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As said already,  there are issues.  Let's look at how small the market is. To be in the group buy you need:

1: You must be interested in Mechanical Keyboards AND boutique keycaps (counts nearly everyone on this forum,  but it's still a tiny market)
2: Your MK preference must be for Alps switches (only a small fraction of the above set of people)
3: Your Alps MK must have a standard modern ANSI layout (that cuts off many vintage Alps users,  and reduced the market to,  oh,  say half of the people in point 2)
4: You need your Alps board to have Cherry compatible  stabilizers. (And now we have lost nearly everyone left after point 3)

I think point 4 is the nail in the coffin,  unfortunately, but I don't have any practical ideas as to how to mitigate it.
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Offline Hak Foo

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I see three answers for problem 4.

Option A:  Go Tai-Hao, which I think does offer ALPS-compatible stabilizers.  The space-bars they included in the group buy definitely had ALPS-style stabilizer mounts.
Option B:  Someone develops a glue-in replacement stabilizer clip you can stick next to the unusable MX-style stabilizer opening.
Option C:  Pony up for SP to do moulds that accomodate ALPS-style stabilizers.

Option B is potentially a printable problem, but getting them mounted properly by the end users is asking for trouble.
Option C is pricey as all get out.

That's why, along with the overall look of the product, I'm hoping someone finds a way to pull together enough market to make a Tai-Hao order feasible.
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Offline Matias

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The Infinity Keyboard also incorporates those ideas.

Not yet it doesn't (in either of the first two drops),

Well, they got most of the way there (with PCB and plate support for dual ALPS-Cherry) but they stopped short with the stabilizers.

I didn't know about the Infinity project until after it was announced -- so I wasn't able to help them get the dual ALPS-Cherry stabilizers done properly.  I also don't know who manufactured it for them, but they probably told them to play it safe and follow the standard plate design for Cherry.



but as soon as you send me and/or the MassDrop guys some sample stabilizer inserts, plate clips, and wires, we can design that into future versions. :)

PM me your address details.  I'll send you samples as I get them.  Were you involved in the Infinity development?


Offline Oobly

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The way I see it, the two best solutions to this are:

1. Alps becomes more popular and widely available. More OEM boards using Alps switches increases the market for compatible keycaps. More modern keycap designs come out. I don't see this happening.
2. New switch design with MX compatible stems. This would require a new case and stem mold, new plate design and possibly new PCB design (they could be made both plate and pin-compatible with MX). If they are made plate and pin compatible with MX it'll be easier to get OEMs to start using the new switches, since their existing tooling / components can be reused. This is more work on the switch manufacturer's side, but ultimately I think the best solution. "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em." This gets around all the limitations as mentioned by Chromako.

I for one, have not bought an Alps board for a number of reasons, many of them the same for not buying Topre:

1. Options. You buy Alps or Topre and you are buying into a very limited market, with very limited options for tuning / adjusting the feel of the board. Keycaps is just one of these. Mods are another. Another is keyboard layouts and controller options. At least the Infinity is a step in the right direction in this regard, but as an example, how many standard layout Alps TKL boards are there?
2. Options...
3. Options...

The mechanical keyboard market is a niche market with a large proportion having a desire to differentiate / customise / tweak their board to their preferences. Not having options locks out a large section of an already small market.
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Offline MOZ

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With a Cherry keycap set, there's a nice established standard set. ANSI 1.25X. I think if you check 20 GBs, 19 of them will have that set included.

With Alps boards, there are less modern boards which are Alps compatible. They're not that popular anyways. So you have a deluge of older vintage boards which have different layouts. So it seems like a lot of people aren't even aware that there are new modern Alps compatible boards coming out. I would say the Infinity was the first big push. The Duck boards were a niche within a niche within a niche.

I think because of the lack of info and advertising on Alps out there, coupled with the low number of people who are into Alps, means there there is low demand. Low demand coupled with far too many personal requests which people try and accommodate.

I think that Badwrench has the right idea with making a modern mod set and color pack. I don't think anything with X on Beige or White will be good because most available Alps caps right now have those colors. X on Black might be nice. X on Grey might be nice. I'd prefer colors.

What turned me off about PMK is that I had to lock up $200+ until the buy was over. That is far too much to tie up. I don't like that system. I can't understand why it's not like the gas station or Massdrop where they hold $1 first. Massdrop's idea of running cap sets with a board was a good idea too. It might be cool to see a GH60 Alps + keycaps buy. Or an accompanied buy.

What I think isn't helping is negativity and complaining. Educating people, using a different distributor besides PMK, helping bring more custom or new modern Alps boards to market, and cutting down options are all things that might help in my opinion. Catering to one person's request will really be amplified in any Alps buy right now just because of the low adoption rate. And I think this the title of this thread won't help. There's little Alps information out there and now someone trying to get into it will see "Why Alps group buys will continue to fail".

I know we have talked a little about this before, but I'm certain this is correct.

The only way an Alps keycap GB is going to be successful, is if there is a modern, 60% or TKL Alps keyboard that uses standard ANSI layout. If people buy that keyboard, they would be interested in a set of keycaps for it. A plate could be designed to use Costar stabilizers with Alps switch holes, so that SP's stabilizer mounts (MX) could be used.

I'm almost positive this is the only way. And be assured, it's something I'm working on.

I agree. The best way to have a successful keyset GB is to have a combined simultaneous GB for Alps board (PCB, plate, case, etc), alps switches (Via 7bit/MK) and keycaps. I started off this idea last year in my Alps Revival thread but then got exhausted and RL became a pain.

Offline ctm

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I just found that last December GB post and I am so sad to know it didn't work out. :(
I am a V60 MTS user and I would definitely buy a set of PBT for my V60 if it is available.
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Offline Defect

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Think we need to start with basic colors, and move from there.

I mean, all I want is good quality black on beige.  Its hard to get everyone to agree on one wacky color set.

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Offline fohat.digs

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Think we need to start with basic colors, and move from there.

I mean, all I want is good quality black on beige. 

Even at this, I immediately think: "What! Pearl + pebble is infinitely classier than plain beige!"
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Offline jacobolus

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Beige (or “pearl” or whatever) is terrible. Light gray is so much better.

Offline ctm

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Actually I saw the delta blue GB before it ends. Though I am interested in ALPS keycaps, I did not join the GB because 1, it's ABS, not PBT; 2, I am not a big fan of that blue color. I would prefer blank to delta blue.
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Offline fohat.digs

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Good thing that I can't quote you, jacobolus.

GTFOH

Warm grays are nice but cool grays are awful.
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Offline jdcarpe

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Actually I saw the delta blue GB before it ends. Though I am interested in ALPS keycaps, I did not join the GB because 1, it's ABS, not PBT; 2, I am not a big fan of that blue color. I would prefer blank to delta blue.
All aboard the hype train. PBT is yuck.

Signature Plastics double shot ABS is at least equal if not superior to those Tai Hao and Vortex PBT sets everyone goes crazy for.
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Offline Daniel Beardsmore

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I'm not sure what feel I prefer. PBT doesn't have a "magic" feel, but the wear rate of ABS is unfortunate. It's not that shine is inherently a bad thing, but it's silly when a three-month-old keyboard is already looking heavily used! My Filco has worn perfectly smooth, while my much younger Poker II's black paint has got a case of cellulite.

I was shocked to discover yesterday that Tai-Hao already have PBT doubleshot in production (and while there's some discontent about unoriginal colour schemes, that doesn't bother me — I'm just glad that it exists at all, as new colour schemes are sure to follow).

Experience with vintage equipment demonstrates that wear-resistant, double-shot-capable plastic exists, and that the industry simply lost its way in the early 80s.

Unfortunately, I don't yet foresee anyone cracking the truly impossible: Filco-grade legends in doubleshot! Still, I have a fondness for Tai-Hao's stock typeface.
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Offline jacobolus

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Warm grays are nice but cool grays are awful.
Nah. Straight neutral. And by light gray I mean very light. Maybe 90% the reflectance of something you’d call "white". (Though darker grays are nice too.) Beige anything just looks like it got puked up by a cubicle farm in the 80s. Fine for a TV show set in a boring time and place, but nothing I’d want on my desk, given other options.

Offline jacobolus

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Unfortunately, I don't yet foresee anyone cracking the truly impossible: Filco-grade legends in doubleshot!
What do you mean by “Filco-grade” legends? Filco’s legends aren’t the worst ever made, but they’re hardly amazing: poor alignment, glyphs for some non-alphanumeric characters that don’t match the typeface at all, mismatched glyph sizes, modifier text set at inconsistent type sizes, missing space in Caps Lock, mostly oblique type but some upright glyphs, careless kerning, insufficient leading, mix of symbols before/after/below words on different keys, etc.

They look like they were designed by a high school student intern, with no input from a real graphic designer.
« Last Edit: Mon, 02 March 2015, 18:14:47 by jacobolus »

Offline Daniel Beardsmore

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Filco chose a font with very delicate details and sharp corners, and you can't reproduce this with mould tooling that I am aware of.

The "CapsLock" is silly, I realise, but that's my only complaint.

It's way better than Topre legends ;-)
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Offline jacobolus

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Filco chose a font with very delicate details and sharp corners, and you can't reproduce this with mould tooling that I am aware of.
Filco chose (a not especially inspiring version of) oblique Futura. I like Futura, which is why I used it on these:



But I think Filco could have executed a lot better. (Actually, for something oblique/italic I’d probably pick a different typeface.)

Anyhow, doubleshot keycaps can get pretty sharp. E.g.:
« Last Edit: Mon, 02 March 2015, 18:39:02 by jacobolus »

Offline Daniel Beardsmore

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Those doubleshots aren't a fraction as sharp as Filco's legends. I mean perfect right angles and tapering right down to a point.

Infinity Hacker to me just looks like it's screaming at me — it needs a lot more subtlety.
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Offline ctm

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Actually I saw the delta blue GB before it ends. Though I am interested in ALPS keycaps, I did not join the GB because 1, it's ABS, not PBT; 2, I am not a big fan of that blue color. I would prefer blank to delta blue.
All aboard the hype train. PBT is yuck.

Signature Plastics double shot ABS is at least equal if not superior to those Tai Hao and Vortex PBT sets everyone goes crazy for.
That's interesting. In fact I only have experience with stock thin ABS keycaps. In my (possibly wrong) impression, PBT caps are more textured and more resilient to sweat and oil. My hands sweat a bit more than average, so my keycaps is usually a bit oily and slippery and I would like some keycaps that can stay dry and good-feeling. Can DS ABS be that good?
TMK Alps64 w/ Matias Quiet Switches in KBP V60 case.
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Coming:
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Offline ctm

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Oh I just recall that I once tried my friend's Unicomp with PBT keycaps. As far as I remember, that feels pretty good.
TMK Alps64 w/ Matias Quiet Switches in KBP V60 case.
Infinity60 with SKCM Orange Switches w/ TMK.
CM Storm QRF w/ Frosty Flake controller, Cherry MX Blue Switches and TMK firmware.


Coming:
Ellipse Model F F62.

Offline jacobolus

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In my (possibly wrong) impression, PBT caps are more textured and more resilient to sweat and oil. My hands sweat a bit more than average, so my keycaps is usually a bit oily and slippery and I would like some keycaps that can stay dry and good-feeling. Can DS ABS be that good?
ABS is a great plastic, but it wears pretty easily when subjected to continuous finger contact. You can get ABS keycaps with lots of texture, but it’ll wear down from the most commonly used keys within a few months of daily use.

Offline jacobolus

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Those doubleshots aren't a fraction as sharp as Filco's legends. I mean perfect right angles and tapering right down to a point.
Okay, sure. You can’t easily make tooling for double-shot keycaps with as sharp a corner as you can get with pad printing or laser etching.

I’m actually not sure what your criteria or goals are, Daniel. You seem to have very particular and precise criteria (needs pointy corners, needs small enough text to count as “subtle”), but then you don’t care at all about many aspects of the design (like leading, kerning, alignment, consistent sizes, stylistically consistent glyph shapes, consistent arrangement of words and symbols, etc.).

Do you require white on black with your pointy corners? If so, I think pad printing or laser etching are basically your only options (and laser etching might not get you quite the result you want). Otherwise, dye sublimation is probably going to get you the best result. (Though perhaps the edges will be too fuzzy for your taste?)

I don’t think it’s possible/economical to make something with perfectly pointy corners using double-injection-molding, and dye sublimation printing can’t manage white legends on black keycaps.

Maybe take your Filco keycaps and put a few layers of shellac (or something) on top?
« Last Edit: Mon, 02 March 2015, 18:56:17 by jacobolus »

Offline Badwrench

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In my (possibly wrong) impression, PBT caps are more textured and more resilient to sweat and oil. My hands sweat a bit more than average, so my keycaps is usually a bit oily and slippery and I would like some keycaps that can stay dry and good-feeling. Can DS ABS be that good?
ABS is a great plastic, but it wears pretty easily when subjected to continuous finger contact. You can get ABS keycaps with lots of texture, but it’ll wear down from the most commonly used keys within a few months of daily use.

That, and that I actually prefer the worn down feel of caps.  Perfection to me is old cherry doubleshots that are worn to ****.  I do really like SP's double shot abs on a light clicky switch though.


Also, to those that are being super negative about the hopes of future alps caps, drop an IC with your ideas and lets see if something happens.  I will continue to try mine until something hits, I am patient. 
wut. i'd buy a ****ty IBM board for that green V2

Offline ctm

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My illusion that PBT is superior than doubleshot ABS mostly come from this post https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40605.0. Most replies say PBT is better.
TMK Alps64 w/ Matias Quiet Switches in KBP V60 case.
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Coming:
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Offline Daniel Beardsmore

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All I was saying is that it would be a miracle even above and beyond resurrecting double-shot on wear-resistant plastics, to have the sharpness of type that you get with pad printing. (I've never seen sharp laser marking either — the laser beam tends to be quite coarse.)

Yes, dark on light, since the reverse can be solved with dye sublimation, mostly. Acer legends were pretty sharp, and I'm assuming those were dye-sub, which itself can be a bit hit and miss in terms of focus. Then again, some of the legends on my Acer 6312-TW are wobbly.
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Offline fohat.digs

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My illusion that PBT is superior than doubleshot ABS mostly come from this post

All my dye-sub PBT caps have performed superbly and I have absolutely no criticism of their look, feel, and durability.

Unfortunately, there are huge limitations, such as the scarcity of complete of sets for Alps ANSI keyboards, and the impossibility of light legends on dark bases.

"The Trump campaign announced in a letter that Republican candidates and committees are now expected to pay “a minimum of 5% of all fundraising solicitations to Trump National Committee JFC” for using his “name, image, and likeness in fundraising solicitations.”
“Any split that is higher than 5%,” the letter states, “will be seen favorably by the RNC and President Trump's campaign and is routinely reported to the highest levels of leadership within both organizations.”"

Offline jdcarpe

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Also, these sets that are advertised as PBT double shot, whether from Vortex or Tai Hao, are they really PBT? SP had terrible issues with the different shrinkage rate of PBT, to the extent that they will not make a full set of double shot keycaps in PBT. I suspect that the double shot PBT sets from other manufacturers are actually a blend of plastics. Do I have any proof of this? No, it's just a hunch. But who knows how they wear? Do we have any evidence, even anecdotal, that they are as shine resistant as traditional dyesub PBT?
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Offline Matias

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Also, these sets that are advertised as PBT double shot, whether from Vortex or Tai Hao, are they really PBT? SP had terrible issues with the different shrinkage rate of PBT, to the extent that they will not make a full set of double shot keycaps in PBT. I suspect that the double shot PBT sets from other manufacturers are actually a blend of plastics. Do I have any proof of this? No, it's just a hunch. But who knows how they wear? Do we have any evidence, even anecdotal, that they are as shine resistant as traditional dyesub PBT?

I heard that SP was using ABS tooling for PBT.

Add the complication of double-shot, and I can see how they could have problems with that.  :-)


Offline ctm

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Also, these sets that are advertised as PBT double shot, whether from Vortex or Tai Hao, are they really PBT? SP had terrible issues with the different shrinkage rate of PBT, to the extent that they will not make a full set of double shot keycaps in PBT. I suspect that the double shot PBT sets from other manufacturers are actually a blend of plastics. Do I have any proof of this? No, it's just a hunch. But who knows how they wear? Do we have any evidence, even anecdotal, that they are as shine resistant as traditional dyesub PBT?

I heard that SP was using ABS tooling for PBT.

Add the complication of double-shot, and I can see how they could have problems with that.  :-)
I decided to stop attempting to harvest keycaps from vintage boards. Instead I will wait for Matias's PBT keycaps!
TMK Alps64 w/ Matias Quiet Switches in KBP V60 case.
Infinity60 with SKCM Orange Switches w/ TMK.
CM Storm QRF w/ Frosty Flake controller, Cherry MX Blue Switches and TMK firmware.


Coming:
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Offline jacobolus

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I heard that SP was using ABS tooling for PBT.
Just out of curiosity, what are the differences in tooling requirements between ABS and PBT? Is there a good resource about that online somewhere?

Offline Matias

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I heard that SP was using ABS tooling for PBT.
Just out of curiosity, what are the differences in tooling requirements between ABS and PBT? Is there a good resource about that online somewhere?


ABS tooling needs to be made 1/2% longer to account for shrinkage.  PBT tooling needs to be made 1.5% longer.

BTW, the PBT material we've seen so far is very scratch prone.  Anybody know if this is generally true of PBT caps?


Offline jacobolus

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BTW, the PBT material we've seen so far is very scratch prone.  Anybody know if this is generally true of PBT caps?
Perhaps compare scratching some keycaps from an old Apple keyboard?