Author Topic: A sad day in Filco Ninja Land (Read 96264 times)

nhwhaup · « **Reply #50 on:** Thu, 09 June 2011, 18:58:03 »

Quote from: nhwhaup;357784

I have a tenkeyless Filco with reds that I bought through the keyboard co and I have no pinging at all. I tried putting my ear right down and releasing the keys and spacebar quickly and absolutely no pinging. I also have the full-sized version at work and that one I purchased off Amazon but also via the keyboard co. I haven't noticed any pinging but I'll really check it out today when I get to work. I do know that the keys seemed to have a different sound on some of the keys after I switched the keycaps to PBT ones.

Adding more: I looked and listened more carefully to my full size Filco Majestouch wuith the reds and yes this one does ping. I never really noticed it until reading this post. The tenkeyless version is definitely ping free.

penpoints · « **Reply #51 on:** Thu, 09 June 2011, 19:12:53 »

Quote from: redpill;357965

Here you go. Probably need to crank the sound a bit.

Thanks for the audio clip. That's the same sound that my Filco keyboards made, only mine were much louder. For example, the backspace key snapping back up caused a gigantic, sustained ping - like a tuning fork. The other keys had the same problem, but they weren't as bad. However, the combined effect was awful.

I was tempted to keep these keyboards anyway, because other than the pinging they seemed to be really excellent. Oh well, I won't buy another 2nd-generation Filco. Just hope someone will be selling Ninja keycaps at some point.

canon.tk · « **Reply #52 on:** Thu, 09 June 2011, 19:21:41 »

Quote from: penpoints;358134

Thanks for the audio clip. That's the same sound that my Filco keyboards made, only mine were much louder. For example, the backspace key snapping back up caused a gigantic, sustained ping - like a tuning fork. The other keys had the same problem, but they weren't as bad. However, the combined effect was awful.

I was tempted to keep these keyboards anyway, because other than the pinging they seemed to be really excellent. Oh well, I won't buy another 2nd-generation Filco. Just hope someone will be selling Ninja keycaps at some point.

I know the sound you're talking about. My friend's Filco does that. What these guys are calling pinging is nothing compared to what I heard on his board.

Wallach · « **Reply #53 on:** Thu, 09 June 2011, 20:12:07 »

Quote from: penpoints;358134

Thanks for the audio clip. That's the same sound that my Filco keyboards made, only mine were much louder. For example, the backspace key snapping back up caused a gigantic, sustained ping - like a tuning fork. The other keys had the same problem, but they weren't as bad. However, the combined effect was awful.

I was tempted to keep these keyboards anyway, because other than the pinging they seemed to be really excellent. Oh well, I won't buy another 2nd-generation Filco. Just hope someone will be selling Ninja keycaps at some point.

That was the problem with mine, and it was the same key (Backspace) that caused the loudest noise. One of the arrow keys was bad as well.

Now I use an HHKBP2 because I'm SCURRED FOR LIFE.

Tennobanzai · « **Reply #54 on:** Thu, 09 June 2011, 20:53:13 »

Just started playing around with my ninja. It seems almost all the keys give off a very low hollow pitch that can be heard if you put your ear up to it. Only happens when I bottom out so i'm guessing its the metal plate.

Alot of complaining but overall i'm happy with mine. Definitely keeping mine. The Filco logo looks great in gunmetal/black

Surly73 · « **Reply #55 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 07:45:11 »

Quote from: sordna;357995

Try gettiing a stickshift rental. Or a large family car or SUV. Even some American "sporty" cars, all looks, and they still come with auto and torque converter slush in between your engine and your wheels.

With two kids, if I feel I need a larger vehicle the Cayenne is on my list because I can get it with stick. Unfortunately, you can only get the base model or the GTS with stick. The S and the Turbo are auto-only. Even Porsche is screwing it up

I'd think an S with stick would be great. For now I'm sticking with my E39.

dracaXL · « **Reply #56 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 08:34:20 »

Quote from: ripster;357575

BTW I just stick my keyboards on a SuperXXL Mousemat. You'd be surprised the difference.

Have you considered listening to a lot of Death Metal?

I laughed so hard reading this post.

redpill · « **Reply #57 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 09:12:20 »

Quote from: Surly73;358354

With two kids, if I feel I need a larger vehicle the Cayenne is on my list because I can get it with stick. Unfortunately, you can only get the base model or the GTS with stick. The S and the Turbo are auto-only. Even Porsche is screwing it up I'd think an S with stick would be great. For now I'm sticking with my E39.

Every time I see a Porsche with an auto trans it makes me want to cry!

penpoints · « **Reply #58 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 09:46:36 »

Quote from: ripster;358178

BTW did you mention that to the buyer? I don't remember seeing a post like that in the classifieds.

Why do you care whether or not the seller revealed this? That doesn't make sense, since you've been saying all along that the metallic ringing problem is trivial, nonexistent, or easily fixable.

I was very reluctant to return these keyboards to Amazon.com, and wouldn't have done this unless there was a genuine problem.

sordna · « **Reply #59 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 09:48:15 »

Quote from: redpill;358373

Every time I see a Porsche with an auto trans it makes me want to cry!

I even want to cry when I see a Miata with auto. By the way, have you installed a short-throw shifter on your M3 ? BMW are great cars but their sticks are way too long throw, it kinda ruins the experience. It's funny how some much cheeper cars (Miata or S2000) have amazing short and crisp stick action.

daerid · « **Reply #60 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 10:06:09 »

Quote from: sordna;358392

I even want to cry when I see a Miata with auto. By the way, have you installed a short-throw shifter on your M3 ? BMW are great cars but their sticks are way too long throw, it kinda ruins the experience. It's funny how some much cheeper cars (Miata or S2000) have amazing short and crisp stick action.

Sorry to jump in and derail here, but I was wondering if you had a short-throw you'd suggest. I have a fairly old ('96) 328i, but I love the thing and it's in fairly good condition, and I'd like to try out a short throw on it.

sordna · « **Reply #61 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 10:21:42 »

Daerid: dunno, never owned a BMW, but I'm sure there's tons of forums talking about it.
Ripster's right, we strayed, so let's stay on topic ripster-style by posting another random youtube video ...man she sings so good live (sound sample so it happened)

[video=youtube;gG9adc378TI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG9adc378TI[/video]

penpoints · « **Reply #62 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 10:22:04 »

Quote from: ripster;358407

We really should stick to the topic at hand.

Sound Samples Or It Didn't Happen!

Is it really productive to accuse people of lying? Or to assume that everyone else is an imbecile?

All of my other Filcos have a pleasant click. The Filcos I returned had a loud, metallic ringing. They were defective. Get over it.

sordna · « **Reply #63 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 10:28:09 »

What is the defect, exactly? What did the manufacturer do wrong, if a spring happens to oscillate like any self-respecting spring does? Good guitar amp reverbs use springs. They have sound qualities!

alaricljs · « **Reply #64 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 10:34:11 »

Quote from: penpoints;358415

Is it really productive to accuse people of lying? Or to assume that everyone else is an imbecile?

All of my other Filcos have a pleasant click. The Filcos I returned had a loud, metallic ringing. They were defective. Get over it.

I think it's more along the lines of finding out if you can hear something we can't. The only samples I've heard where ringing was claimed I can't hear a damned thing beyond what my Filco produces for noise and none of it sounds like ringing.

sordna · « **Reply #65 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 10:42:19 »

Knock the amp and you'll probably hear a ping. I've heard it on mine. Some guitar tremolo springs do too (now that might indeed be a problem).
Anyway, lot's of things with springs ping, even furniture.

Oh no, I just released a spring-loaded pen's button and it pinged. I must return it at once, it's clearly defective. Even better, we need a class action lawsuit against spring manufacturers. By law, all springs should come rubber coated, or come with a silicone core, or change alloy every 2mm of wire (Soluter's solution to avoid the resonance).

keyboardlover · « **Reply #66 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 10:49:31 »

There is a noticeable difference between the issue we're talking about and the sound of an ordinary Filco.

There's no question in my mind that it's a manufacturer defect. Why it only affects certain boards is beyond me.

Having not experienced the issue, yet being certain it's a non-issue is not only stupid but it's trolling as well.

penpoints · « **Reply #67 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 10:50:36 »

Quote from: sordna;358419

What is the defect, exactly? What did the manufacturer do wrong, if a spring happens to oscillate like any self-respecting spring does? Good guitar amp reverbs use springs. They have sound qualities!

You don't know what is meant by a "defective product"?

I'm sure there was some kind of mistake in the production process. The 1st-generation Filco keyboards I have don't have this ringing problem at all.

From the comments it's clear that many of the 2nd-generation Filcos are perfectly fine, or that the problem is minor. Mine were LOUD and really not usable in a quiet office. YMMV

canon.tk · « **Reply #68 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 10:51:48 »

I'm sorry but this is where you're logic is a little off. The keyboard I've used that pinged really bad was a first gen Filco 104 with browns. They all do it.

Quote from: penpoints;358436

You don't know what is meant by a "defective product"?

I'm sure there was some kind of mistake in the production process. The 1st-generation Filco keyboards I have don't have this ringing problem at all.

From the comments it's clear that many of the 2nd-generation Filcos are perfectly fine, or that the problem is minor. Mine were LOUD and really not usable in a quiet office. YMMV

keyboardlover · « **Reply #69 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 10:51:49 »

Quote from: penpoints;358436

Mine were LOUD and really not usable in a quiet office. YMMV

Same here. As I've stated, neither of my other Filco's are like that. One is a Gen1 and the other is a Gen2.

sordna · « **Reply #70 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 10:59:32 »

It's not a defect. If you can call it a defect, it's a Cherry defect. It's physics. Springs sometimes oscillate. You can get many cherry keyboards to ping if you try, not just Filco's. There's not much the manufacturer can do about it. Are they supposed to check every switch for sound properties ?

Tennobanzai · « **Reply #71 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 11:07:24 »

Quote from: sordna;358392

I even want to cry when I see a Miata with auto. By the way, have you installed a short-throw shifter on your M3 ? BMW are great cars but their sticks are way too long throw, it kinda ruins the experience. It's funny how some much cheeper cars (Miata or S2000) have amazing short and crisp stick action.

S2000 and miatas are much cheaper but they are actually real sports cars compared to the newer M3s. I really want a first gen M3 tho.

After my first day with browns, i'm not sure if I like them for gaming. I actually prefer my Model Ms over it right now. For some reason the tactile touch feels like a sticky red switch.

audioave10 · « **Reply #72 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 11:08:31 »

Just to report...no ping at all in a Deck Legend Cherry blacks. This tank is solid and for $170 it better be!
I do believe some of these guys have a problem. My Model M's certainly have a few keys that ping a little more than others.

keyboardlover · « **Reply #73 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 11:11:01 »

It's times like these when I wish itlnstln still posted here. He experienced this issue too and hated it.

He blamed it on the plate though, which is obviously not the issue. More research obviously still needs to be done to determine root cause.

keyboardlover · « **Reply #74 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 11:12:21 »

No one said it affected "all Filcos". It obviously is a sporadic issue which only affects certain boards.
They majority of them seem to have browns.

Tennobanzai · « **Reply #75 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 11:13:23 »

My Japanese ninja should be here in a couple weeks for some ping testing

keyboardlover · « **Reply #76 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 11:13:29 »

Oh ok...I only personally experienced it on a Gen1 with browns.

sordna · « **Reply #77 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 11:17:49 »

Quote from: audioave10;358456

Just to report...no ping at all in a Deck Legend Cherry blacks. This tank is solid and for $170 it better be!
I do believe some of these guys have a problem. My Model M's certainly have a few keys that ping a little more than others.

Best way to try the ping, is hold a key and slide your finger off it, so it bounces back violently. You don't even have to hold the key down all the way. But I think black springs are stiffer and might not ping for that reason. I don't own MX blacks, but can get keyboards with browns and reds to ping. In my view, the better mounting the switch has, the more likely it is to ping. Like a guitar bridge, good mounting transfers the vibrations to the body. It will help if folks hold different loose cherry switches in a vise or pliers, and try to release the stems by sliding their finger off repeatedly. I would try it but I don't have any loose switches, and am not willing to desolder any off my boards. Can someone with extra MX switches try this please ?

keyboardlover · « **Reply #78 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 11:17:50 »

Hahaha I get the joke now. Nobody on here cares about those forums.

canon.tk · « **Reply #79 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 11:18:07 »

You're the one that just said that this issue pops up every 6 months or so. Sounds like an old and on going thing to me.

I remember reading about it and experiencing it over a year ago. After using the keyboard my friend bought, the sound gave me pause about buying a mechanical keyboard. I waited a month after using that board before I bought my Filco 104 with blacks. I read all the forums I could to see if this was a wide spread problem. I read about people having it but it seemed isolated. So when I got my board in I tested to see if it made the noise like my friend's board it and it didn't.

Quote from: ripster;358459

So if this problem affects all Filcos why hasn't this been a big issue before?

Or on Japanese Keyboard Forums?

Or on Korean Keyboard Forums?

Or on Chinese Keyboard Forums?

Or on Runeazn's Keyboard Forum?

I don't count OCN. They are probably all deaf from those Apple Earbuds.

redpill · « **Reply #80 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 11:19:51 »

Quote from: sordna;358392

I even want to cry when I see a Miata with auto. By the way, have you installed a short-throw shifter on your M3 ? BMW are great cars but their sticks are way too long throw, it kinda ruins the experience. It's funny how some much cheeper cars (Miata or S2000) have amazing short and crisp stick action.

UUC SSK. Makes it pretty notchy, but that's OK by me. Bilstein PSS9 progressive coilovers, exhaust, intake, etc. Fun car. 67k miles and nearly 10 years old, I still like it better than the new ones!

Quote from: daerid;358406

Sorry to jump in and derail here, but I was wondering if you had a short-throw you'd suggest. I have a fairly old ('96) 328i, but I love the thing and it's in fairly good condition, and I'd like to try out a short throw on it.

http://www.turnermotorsport.com/BMW-E36/c-62-bmw-uuc-short-shift-kits.aspx

redpill · « **Reply #81 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 11:21:57 »

Quote from: ripster;358466

Well?.....
(Attachment Link) 19022[/ATTACH]

Because people with the most refined taste have the highest standards?

keyboardlover · « **Reply #82 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 11:22:13 »

@canon.tk - Yes it was mentioned here before a while ago but most of us thought it was just a "plate-mounted" vs. "pcb-mounted" thing.

That does not seem to be the case now.

Also, in my interview with the designer he mentioned that the Filco has A defect.

Just wouldn't say WHAT it was :\

Ripster thought he was lying to sell more Leopolds. What a conspiracy theorist!

canon.tk · « **Reply #83 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 11:25:03 »

My Leopold with browns makes the same noise!

penpoints · « **Reply #84 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 11:29:14 »

Quote from: canon.tk;358437

I'm sorry but this is where you're logic is a little off. The keyboard I've used that pinged really bad was a first gen Filco 104 with browns. They all do it.

Okay, point taken. Then some of the 1st-gen Filcos have the problem too. But not very many, I'll bet, or we would've heard more about it.

So why do some Filco keyboards ping, to varying degrees, while others don't? I'm glad my 1st-gen Filcos don't have this "feature". Actually, I don't mind a slight ping - I just hate the loud tuning-fork effect.

canon.tk · « **Reply #85 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 11:31:53 »

My tenkeyless Ninja doesn't do it and my Filco 104 with reds (gen 2) doesn't do it. So I'm not sure what the deal is with your boards.

I don't think it's my hearing, because I can hear just fine. Any high pitch sound drives me nuts and if my boards were doing it beyond the basic sound of the spring, I probably hear it.

Quote from: penpoints;358478

Okay, point taken. Then some of the 1st-gen Filcos have the problem too. But not very many, I'll bet, or we would've heard more about it.

So why do some Filco keyboards ping, to varying degrees, while others don't? I'm glad my 1st-gen Filcos don't have this "feature". Actually, I don't mind a slight ping - I just hate the loud tuning-fork effect.

sordna · « **Reply #86 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 11:32:26 »

I bet if you loosen up the mounting of the PCB it would reduce or eliminate noise. The more I think about it, it's probably the mounting of the various components from the switch all the way to the case that is too good for its own good. The spring acts like a guitar string, the switch mounting / solder points act as a guitar bridge, and the case acts as a guitar soundbox. Can someone try loosening up the PCB screws, add some rubber washers to dampen any vibrations, etc?

canon.tk · « **Reply #87 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 11:34:26 »

And let me clarify what I mean by my boards not doing it. If I put my ear right next to the board and smack keys around I can hear the ping sound, all my boards do this. When I say that they don't do it is the sound from just normal typing. It doesn't resonate across the board.

keyboardlover · « **Reply #88 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 11:36:13 »

Problem is you void your warranty if you open it. If that is the issue, its still an assembly defect.

redpill · « **Reply #89 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 11:41:25 »

Quote from: ripster;358485

My son and I came up with this one recently. Seems like a good time to use it.

(Attachment Link) 19023[/ATTACH]

If he's trolling, he's only trolling you. And succeeding

Lester · « **Reply #90 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 11:43:33 »

Quote from: redpill;358491

If he's trolling, he's only trolling you. And succeeding

^

xD

keyboardlover · « **Reply #91 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 11:43:45 »

I wonder if Ripster's son will grow up to become a career senior member on an internet forum.

canon.tk · « **Reply #92 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 11:44:22 »

Quote from: keyboardlover;358494

I wonder if Ripster's son will grow up to become a career senior member on an internet forum.

There can be only one.

penpoints · « **Reply #93 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 11:45:17 »

Quote from: sordna;358448

It's not a defect. If you can call it a defect, it's a Cherry defect. It's physics. Springs sometimes oscillate. You can get many cherry keyboards to ping if you try, not just Filco's. There's not much the manufacturer can do about it. Are they supposed to check every switch for sound properties ?

It's definitely not caused by an oscillating spring. The sound is reverberating through the metal plate. This sound should be suppressed at the switch. A slight, muffled ping would be okay, but a keyboard shouldn't sound like a tuning fork. Maybe you don't consider this to be a serious defect, but I do.

keyboardlover · « **Reply #94 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 11:55:14 »

Nope, that hasn't been determined either.

What HAS been determined is that if Ripster hasn't personally experienced an issue, it cannot POSSIBLY be an issue.

Some "Number 1 keyboard expert!"

sordna · « **Reply #95 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 12:05:23 »

Quote from: penpoints;358497

It's definitely not caused by an oscillating spring. The sound is reverberating through the metal plate.

Nope quite. I can get my kinesis boards to ping, and they have no metal plates. The switch innards do the ping, the rest of the keyboard just happens to transmit/amplify the sound.

Quote from: penpoints;358497

Maybe you don't consider this to be a serious defect, but I do.

If it's loud and sustains I can see it getting annoying. I would call it undesirable spring behavior, but probably not a defect, because Filco, Leopold, Kinesis, etc didn't do something wrong. I would hate to punish the manufacturer by returning a fine product, for something that is really happenstance and not their wrongdoing.
It might be a *feature* for a manufacturer to offer a higher priced keyboard that is fine tuned / dampened / individually tested to avoid such noises.
But lack of such does not constitute a defect in my view. It's just lack of a luxury feature.

keyboardlover · « **Reply #96 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 12:07:35 »

Someone sounds bitter!

Err what's the word you like? Surly?

I prefer bitter.

redpill · « **Reply #97 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 12:18:01 »

Now if they could get each key to ring in a complementary tone, you could wind up playing a song like a special water glass playing talent

keyboardlover · « **Reply #98 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 12:20:27 »

Quote from: ripster

Anyway, back to my statistical logic of this not being that big a deal and highly dependent on the listener.

Seems a lot of people disagree with you on that.

It's not easy being the #1 keyboard expert on the planet.

redpill · « **Reply #99 on:** Fri, 10 June 2011, 12:20:58 »

Quote from: ripster;358522

Anyway, back to my statistical logic of this not being that big a deal and highly dependent on the listener.

Your logic is flawed. You can't claim it's highly dependent on the listener because you haven't heard it for yourself in person.

Secondly, it might not be a big deal in terms of number of keyboards affected, but for the individual people who are impacted, it's potentially a big deal.

There's no point in trying to white wash it just because you like your Filcos.

News:

Author Topic: A sad day in Filco Ninja Land (Read 96264 times)