All about ergo keyboard

[yasuo]

I'm confused with choosing design ergo keyboard
If you have an idea,post it

thank you very much

[vatin]

Ergodox

[yasuo]

Ergodox

not
The others

[JPG]

ErgoGP

[yasuo]

ErgoGP

also not
The others

[MOZ]

Reason for not going for ErgoDox or ErgoGP, it would help members understand better what you want.

Also, give me more details, regarding price range, what you are looking for, saying, I want an ergonomic keyboard, will not get you much suggestions.

[Lanx]

ErgoGP

also not
The others

wtf do you want? you're giving us ZERO information while just dismissing recommendations and opinions, how about YOU start with what you want/need/require and we can help you out, otherwise you're wasting everyone's time.

[Architect]

AFAIK the choices come down to

• Kinesis I used this for years, and still have three of the Advantage. Pretty much the only choice in the US back in the 90's and very expensive for the time. Downsides, takes some time to learn, really big, wasted space in the middle, funky function keys and now an old design (weird things like hitting both shifts turns on caps lock). They have other designs like split that I've used but never liked.
• Maltron Never used one, but similar reasons to the Kinesis. In my opinion the design and layout of this one could be updated, and it should be much cheaper.
• Truly Ergonomic The new kid. Getting a foothold, this is now my all time favorite and has displaced my Kinesis Advantage collection as I said. For me it has all the best elements, plus a few new ones (angled design, thumb and center keys, dual symmetric modifiers, centered and dedicated navigation keys, six layers, reprogrammable, solid metal plate construction, small key wells that don't collect a lot of crud ...) all in a small package. Maybe I'm biased because I like it so much but I don't see a lot of disadvantages, other than a rocky start.
• ErgoDox. Interesting DIY project. Expensive for what you get IMO (box of parts and unfinished aluminum or acrylic). A lot of folks here seem to like it but it's way too big for me (much like the kinesis), plus I don't the flat design and layout.
• Microsoft and others. I never considered these ergonomic

I think that's it for existing?

My ideal would be the TE keyboard with, I don't know, maybe an extra row of keys above the function row? For F1-F24 perhaps. And maybe an imbedded trackball in the palm rest would be interesting. Which gives me an idea, anybody interested in that mod? The palmrest is detachable, so if you can find a small enough one it could be easily added.

[davkol]

key64 ^.^

[nesiax]

AFAIK the choices come down to

• Truly Ergonomic The new kid. Getting a foothold, this is now my all time favorite and has displaced my Kinesis Advantage collection as I said. For me it has all the best elements, plus a few new ones (angled design, thumb and center keys, dual symmetric modifiers, centered and dedicated navigation keys, six layers, reprogrammable, solid metal plate construction, small key wells that don't collect a lot of crud ...) all in a small package. Maybe I'm biased because I like it so much but I don't see a lot of disadvantages, other than a rocky start.

Biased ... mmmm ... I remember you as the troll behind the ' Truly Ergonomic scam / fraud  ' a few years ago when you started a thread at geekhack talking about the advantages of the 'Truly Ergonomic' over the Kinesis Advantage, The truly ergonomic was at that time a device that never existed and since your first post it took two years to be made and while you scam people (and for what I see still doing that) on Internet forums *WE* the geekhack community develop better ergonomic keyboards alternatives and with the help of the community projects like the Key64 and the ErgoDox saw the light at the end.  Fortunately many people choose the ErgoDox over other commercial alternatives including your 'Not Truly Ergonomic' because they realized they should not support a keyboard manufacturer that lied for over two years.

And for the ergonomic point of view Is the 'Truly Ergonomic' really an Ergonomic keyboard ? just try to rest your thumbs at the keyboard and see if they fit ergonomically ...  In the middle of the keyboard there is a column of keys that could be pressed with either of the two hands !! what a crappy symmetric design !! Dedicated function keys ... give me a break !! Programmable ? The way the manufacturer (Architect) want, not what you (Member) want !! , Is the firmware opensource ? NO, is NOT, and you can't program it even if you need to fix it, not the way keyboards like the key64 or the Ergodox can be programmed, the Key64 use the amazing tmk_keyboard firmware which *really* supports layers, multiple keyboards layouts in hardware (colemak, qwerty, dvorak) even a key based mouse layer the TECK don't have and will not have and many other things the (N)TECK will never support, at geekhack there are post about people compliant about the (N)TECK loosing key presses and for those who bought the (N)TECK they just had to live with such crappy behavior.

p.d.
Of course I am biased too because I am the designer behind the key64 keyboard but instead of you the 'Alter Ego Architect' I don't need to hide myself.
NTECK = Not Truly ErgonomiC Keyboard.

• ErgoDox. Interesting DIY project. Expensive for what you get IMO (box of parts and unfinished aluminum or acrylic). A lot of folks here seem to like it but it's way too big for me (much like the kinesis), plus I don't the flat design and layout.

Go with the ErgoDox or the Key64 if you want a really good Ergonomic keyboard, dress it the way you like, I haven't see any other keyboard case as beautiful as this one for the ErgoDox made by kurplop.

For the Ergodox you can use the default cases if you want an splittable keyboard and you can separate the two halves as much as the cable length support, since it is based on a teensy board which use the atmel chip you can program the firmware as you like and if you don't know how to do it you can use some of the web based layout configurators already made for the Ergodox.

You will not have any limits with open design keyboards, go with any of them, or fork any of them, all of them have instructions posted at their respective websites if you want to create a special one for yourself !!

Happy Typing !

Nesiax

[Architect]

AFAIK the choices come down to

• Truly Ergonomic The new kid. Getting a foothold, this is now my all time favorite and has displaced my Kinesis Advantage collection as I said. For me it has all the best elements, plus a few new ones (angled design, thumb and center keys, dual symmetric modifiers, centered and dedicated navigation keys, six layers, reprogrammable, solid metal plate construction, small key wells that don't collect a lot of crud ...) all in a small package. Maybe I'm biased because I like it so much but I don't see a lot of disadvantages, other than a rocky start.

Biased ... mmmm ... I remember you as the troll behind the ' Truly Ergonomic scam / fraud  ' a few years ago when you started a thread at geekhack talking about the advantages of the 'Truly Ergonomic' over the Kinesis Advantage, The truly ergonomic was at that time a device that never existed and since your first post it took two years to be made and while you scam people (and for what I see still doing that) on Internet forums *WE* the geekhack community develop better ergonomic keyboards alternatives and with the help of the community projects like the Key64 and the ErgoDox saw the light at the end.  Fortunately many people choose the ErgoDox over other commercial alternatives including your 'Not Truly Ergonomic' because they realized they should not support a keyboard manufacturer that lied for over two years.

Yes I am biased. And I remember being excited about a new keyboard, and encountering a lot of conspiracy theory keyboard haters here. As for your allegations of "you scam people", you can stuff it. I like - no love the TECK and could care less what you think of that. The keyboard is now established and selling well as far as I can tell. I will continue to discuss my thoughts on keyboards here and talk about how much I like the TECK, if that bothers you than keep it to yourself please.

And for the ergonomic point of view Is the 'Truly Ergonomic' really an Ergonomic keyboard ?

Yes

just try to rest your thumbs at the keyboard and see if they fit ergonomically

Yes they do

The way the manufacturer (Architect) want

Excuse me, I have nothing to do with the company. Just like all the other people here who love their keyboards do not work for those companies.

Of course I am biased too because I am the designer behind the key64 keyboard but instead of you the 'Alter Ego Architect' I don't need to hide myself.
NTECK = Not Truly ErgonomiC Keyboard.

Ah here we go! Here is the bias and the keyboard hate. I'm just a keyboard user, but you are some kind of manufacturer with an agenda, who is making false allegations and raising an ugly stink trying to slam the competition AND EVERY USER WHO LIKES IT.

I'm stating my opinions, you are being abusive and I will report it.

[hoggy]

I don't have that agenda, and I agree with nesiax.

Report me as well if you like.

[davkol]

Ah here we go! Here is the bias and the keyboard hate. I'm just a keyboard user, but you are some kind of manufacturer with an agenda, who is making false allegations and raising an ugly stink trying to slam the competition AND EVERY USER WHO LIKES IT.

I'm stating my opinions, you are being abusive and I will report it.

lol, reading comprehention failure. Have you noticed that the keyboard linked in his signature is free as in freedom (ummm, unlike the almost-vaporware "Truly" Ergonomic).

[kurplop]

Whether or not Architect is a shill for TE or just an enthusiastic TE lover, I think unless someone has proof of the former, we should allow him the same dignity we grant any other keyboard lover on this site.

While I have no insider knowledge, I would like to think that he has found a keyboard that meets his needs and wants others to know about it. I say that because if he was a TE plant, I don't think that he would have the people skills necessary to be very convincing. After all, the TE people consistently ignored requests for information before and after delivery of their product. They ignored requests for updates regarding the many bugs in the TE firmware. I stopped using my TE after getting an ErgoDox, but up to that time I don't think they solved the inability for many operating systems to recognize their keyboard without unplugging and replugging in the USB connection after every start up. Many of us felt snubbed by their lack of empathy.

To be fair to the TE people, I do think they tried and partially succeeded in making a solidly constructed keyboard which is an ergonomic improvement over a conventional keyboard. In some ways, the TE is like training wheels on your 2 wheeler before you found your balance; a good next step toward  a better ergo board without as  intimidating a learning curve.  I think TE would have been more successful if they had hired someone like Architect to explain to them the basic human nature of customers and their expectation of not being ignored.

As to the charge against neslax; I'm not aware of him trying to profit from the groundwork he laid with the key64 project, a project which has spawned several innovative keyboards. All of the happy ErgoDox users owe a debt of gratitude to him.

As to the thread topic, there is much to be said but it can be summed up in just a few points

1.  The first rule is, while there are many good generalizations, sometimes what is best for you does not always follow the rules. Therefore experiment.

2.  Most people would benefit with some tenting. I have found 12º-20º tenting adequate to help reduce excessive  pronation without creating different problems.

3. The closer the hands are together, the greater the split angle should likely be. Again, I have found 12º-20º a good range if the halves are together. As they get closer to shoulder width, the angle will lessen.  Imagine your elbows as pivots of an arc cast by your hands, the tangent angle at your hands should be a good angle for the key rows.

4. A keyboard narrow enough to allow your pointing device a comfortable resting place should not be neglected. An alternative is a center placed ball or pad between split halves that are spaces apart.

5. Their are as many opinions about key switches as users. Some would say the lighter the better, on the other hand it may require more control (tension) to prevent mis-strikes with too light a switch. I didn't think mechanical switches were a major help until I went back to RD's. I changed my mind.

6. Depending on how you use it, a programmable board will be helpful to reconfigure most used characters where they can be most easily hit.

7. Take advantage of your thumbs strength and range by considering a board with properly positioned thumb clusters.

8. I'm a believer in palm rests; some aren't. If you are, consider using it more as a reference than a "rest".

9. See point one.

I don't know if you were looking for a keyboard Brand and Model#, planning to invent your own, or merge a bunch of parts together into your own Frankenboard. Which ever you choose, you might consider these points.

[Lanx]

OFFTOPIC:
regarding "Architect", I'm one of the first ppl who suspected him of nefarious motives this is because of my extensive background in internet marketing and seo. I'm also very protective of the GH ergo community and if i see any "BS" i will call it out. You can read that old post if you want, it involves many old time ergo guys and hell even imav(the owner) was perplexed about Architect's zealous love for what at the time seems to be vaporware. It's been more than 2 years since and he's still posting on the forum, 99% of all marketing shills and trolls drop off the forum after a month, he's been around, he contributes, so what can you say really? he just really loves his TE.

[Architect]

Whether or not Architect is a shill for TE or just an enthusiastic TE lover, I think unless someone has proof of the former, we should allow him the same dignity we grant any other keyboard lover on this site.

Thank you for being reasonable.

While I have no insider knowledge, I would like to think that he has found a keyboard that meets his needs and wants others to know about it. I say that because if he was a TE plant, I don't think that he would have the people skills necessary to be very convincing.

Would you believe me if I told you that TE does have a login on this site (with zero posts), and I know this because they sent me a rather angry PM when they found a post of mine where I said "TE just lifted the firmware"? I was lectured on how the configurator firmware is theirs etc. Yes their people skills aren't the best, I was rather pissed on getting the lecture, but whatever, I reworded my post.

many operating systems to recognize their keyboard without unplugging and replugging in the USB connection after every start up.

There was a problem with that on OS X, but that was an Apple bug which was fixed in 10.8.4 (it affected potentially all keyboards except Apple). I never saw it on Windows, FWIW.

As to the charge against neslax; I'm not aware of him trying to profit from the groundwork he laid with the key64 project, a project which has spawned several innovative keyboards. All of the happy ErgoDox users owe a debt of gratitude to him.

Fair enough, I retract what I said in that part. However I've still stand on that I've had it with these accusations and I won't put up with it anymore. I like keyboards and I really like the TECH, and I like chatting with fellow geekhackers about them.

OFFTOPIC:
regarding "Architect", I'm one of the first ppl who suspected him of nefarious motives this is because of my extensive background in internet marketing and seo. I'm also very protective of the GH ergo community and if i see any "BS" i will call it out. You can read that old post if you want, it involves many old time ergo guys and hell even imav(the owner) was perplexed about Architect's zealous love for what at the time seems to be vaporware. It's been more than 2 years since and he's still posting on the forum, 99% of all marketing shills and trolls drop off the forum after a month ..

You were one of the first? Uh, well thanks for that  You guys made me give up on the forum. Of course I could just create a new login but that seemed stupid. Anyhow I figured that maybe the TE hate would have abated by now, but I guess there's still a some left.

Regardless ...

he's been around, he contributes, so what can you say really? he just really loves his TE.

I appreciate that.

[Lanx]

sure np, we have to protect this forum, if you look back on that post you were able to set off everyone's bull$hit meter, even the site owners' as well. Maybe sounding not so fanatical next time would help.

[Larken]

@Architect

As one of the newer members on the ergo-forum, I don't have anything personal against you. In fact, I find myself agreeing with a few of your points on the topic of ergonomics; such as alternative layouts - or even your point about the bad effects of the kinesis advantage palm rest.

But the TECK, insofar as my personal objective evaluation is concerned, has too many issues with regards to design to be a truly ergonomic solution for the general public.

1. The nonsplit-angled design. The angled design's great. Good step in the right direction. But I find it not angled enough for my own liking - others may find it too much (I doubt it), or like me, too little, or they might just get lucky and find it perfect, as you did. But to use one would require me to conform to the board, which defeats the purpose of an ergonomic solution.

2. It's still flat. And not being split, you can't tent it, even if you wanted to.

3. Immensely weird layout, for someone new to the ergogame. The column of keys at the center? Its subjective, but I find it a little perplexing. It's something I could probably adapt to if I wanted, but I don't get the benefit.

Its a step further in ergonomics, but its almost like a half-step, like the creator was uncertain and decided to play it safe with a half-way there design.

AFAIK the choices come down to

• Truly Ergonomic The new kid. Getting a foothold, this is now my all time favorite and has displaced my Kinesis Advantage collection as I said. For me it has all the best elements, plus a few new ones (angled design, thumb and center keys, dual symmetric modifiers, centered and dedicated navigation keys, six layers, reprogrammable, solid metal plate construction, small key wells that don't collect a lot of crud ...) all in a small package. Maybe I'm biased because I like it so much but I don't see a lot of disadvantages, other than a rocky start.
• ErgoDox. Interesting DIY project. Expensive for what you get IMO (box of parts and unfinished aluminum or acrylic). A lot of folks here seem to like it but it's way too big for me (much like the kinesis), plus I don't the flat design and layout.

What I really don't get is this - how quickly you dismiss the ergodox, and for reasons that doesn't really make sense. Too big? The classic case has a similar foot print to the TECK, with the same amount of keywidths along the top, and only a little longer along the bottom. Plus, it's split, and thus, adjustable. It had a site supporting easy reconfiguration of layouts, with up to over 20++ layers, and if I'm not wrong, this feature was implemented even earlier than the TECK support did (which, as I understood it, was a major complaint among users. I believe this feature was promised for over a year, and only delivered recently?)

But that aside, lets get back to the flat design - another one of your criticisms against the ergodox. The ergodox is tentable, or I could have left it flat, like the TECK is. I wouldn't have a choice to do the reverse with the TECK. You state that you don't like the flat design, but isn't that exactly what the TECK is, with no recourse for changing it?

I don't have a problem with you loving your TECK, but its baffling how you see the ergodox as a 'box of part and unfinished aluminium or acrylic'.

I don't mean to come across rude (if I do come across that way), but I just don't see how anyone could look at the TECK (a flat, non-adjustable, non split, and only recently programmable) and the ergodox (the modularity is a modder's dream, and the ease of use and the similarity to the kinesis layout), and objectively say that the TECK is a better keyboard.

In fact, until this thread and the referred links in the discussion earlier, I always had the impression that the TECK was at least about 3 years old, or even older - because the design is simply outdated and outmoded by the newer ones.
 
And even though I like my ergodox alot, I'm still looking out for the next better keyboard. I'd even go so far as to say that the key64 wouldn't have been what I wanted,  mainly because there are too few keys for my liking. Even though it was the spiritual predecessor to the ergodox (and yes, the ergodox, the upcoming ergogp and a few other projects owe it a big debt); I shrugged it off as a non ideal board. I call it as I see it.

I get it - you've found something that fits your needs, and you want to share the joy. It's the same with me and the ergodox. But as anyone familiar with the principles of ergonomics should be - you should realise that what fits one person doesn't necessarily fit another.

It's precisely this reason that I don't actively recommend people to go blindly for the ergodox; instead, I believe its something that the person in question should want first. In fact, I think I often take the stand that if someone's not sure they want to put in the work to adapt to the new layout, they shouldn't get it.

But what I don't get is this - the bias and fervent (almost blind) promotion of the TECK as the best ergoboard available. Its great you found your perfect board, but recommending to others spouting its debatable virtues (when you do seem to know you're biased), does seems more than a little irresponsible, doesn't it?

[Azteca]

LET US BE CLEAR. Here is some educational information for all of you who believe the ErgoDox is the center of the universe, “a masterpiece”, and that we all owe a debt of gratitude to “him”.

Maltron, a UK corporation, created the Maltron keyboard during the 70s. This is 1970s, over 40 years ago, for all of you who weren’t born at that time.

Maltron then flattened THEIR design and sell it as the Maltron Dual Hand Flat (2D).
http://www.maltron.com/index.php/shop/category/47-maltron-dual-hand-2d-flat-keyboards
Does it resemble something if you remove the middle keys?
Yes. The Kinesis-Advantage
Does it resemble something if you remove the middle keys, remove the Function keys, and break it in two pieces?
Does it look like the ErgoDox? No, it doesn’t look like, IT IS IDENTICAL.

A few years after the 1970s, behind everyone’s backs, a bunch of desperate-for-rent-money individuals take the Maltron Flat design, remove a bunch of keys they believe are useless, break it into two parts copycatting the M15/Goldtouch/Fredestyle, and claim that the key64/ErgoDox is a design conceived by “the community” – what a nice way to call a bunch of people that stole a design from a legitimate corporation and claim it as theirs. Bravo!

Key64/ErgoDox design is not original, it is not ingenious, and it is by far not innovative. You just stole the Maltron design, removed several keys, and are asserting it is yours. What a bunch of ignorant dumbbells.

ErgoDox and Massdrop have been very lucky that Maltron haven’t sued your ass off.

Please stop talking about “Biased”, the ErgoDox sold once in a blue moon is not a product, it is a bunch of pieces (not including keycaps - $37.00 extra) sold as a “Kit” that need to be assembled - you need a solder iron and a lot of time and effort to do so (or pay $49.99 extra for someone else to assemble). Let’s call it the ErgoDox-Kit from now on. Although a lot of GeekHacks know how to solder, it doesn’t mean this pile of pieces is for everyone. Can you really believe a real person with CTS or Tendonitis has the time and could solder that many such small pieces?

And that is not the worst. After hours/days of assembly and electronic soldering, numerous people do not like the position of several keys and hate most of the extra thumb keys as they are hard to reach and cause pain – which supposedly you are trying to avoid by an “ergo” design. Additionally, or I should say Minus-itionally, it does not include any legs for raising it - you have to adapt screws to somewhat manually raise it. Moreover, it does not include any kind of rubber legs on the bottom so both keyboard-parts slide all over the place where you have to keep following the parts or reposition them over and over – not ergonomic.

Furthermore, you should greatly thank Ben Blazak – creator of the firmware for the ErgoDox-Kit, instead of claiming the ErgoDox-Kit as a one-person-design, as without him there would be no ErgoDox-Kit. Without Ben, there would be a pile of pieces soldered together looking coldly over a pile of paper.


Embrace innovation. If you don’t like a product like the TE, don’t buy it. But stop hating and procrastinating about any other that “your” ErgoDox-Kit. This forum is about “keyboard enthusiasts”, not only about the ErgoDox-Kit. Don’t bring your corporate-money-making-agenda to all posts where the TE is mentioned. There is so much more out there.

FYI, the Kinesis-Advantage also “stole” the Maltron design (there are other discussions about this elsewhere). Furthermore to Kinesis, they didn’t design their “Maxim” either - they just rebranded the Fujitsu Siemens KBC-5600. Even worse, their last offering moves away from mechanical switches and matrix style key layout with their Freestyle2 - a copycat of the Goldtouch or ErgoFlex.

As for the TrulyErgonomic, you have to take a quick look at life and realize it is not a scam/fraud/vaporware; it just took longer to realize. The product already exists, there are even distributors in the UK and Japan, and a lot of GeekHacks own one or more of these. They have a new application to fully reprogram any TE including older models – application as good as or better than the Massdrop-ErgoDox-Kit-configurator. As for the firmware, it is solved that all OS (Win-Mac-Linux) recognize their keyboards without unplugging. Finally, I as well like many, love this product and use it as my primary board.

As a final though: the ErgoDox-Kit-Maltron-Kinesis-copycat is sold once is a while via Massdrop, whenever they feel like it, and it is not guarantee to be available at any time. So if you want to buy one right now, you can’t, if a corporation wants to buy 1000, they can’t – and I do not believe you can hire 1000 monkeys to assemble them whenever required. So stop recommending it as the super product or as a viable option – it is a cute toy to play around.

Just because “him” stole a design, and is trying to get away with it, it doesn’t mean we own nothing.

About Architect and others, this forum is not about who works or not for such company. It is about talking, discussing, suggesting, or recommending keyboards without a corporate-money-making-agenda like the people behind the ErgoDox-Kit-Maltron-Kinesis-copycat.


--- BACK TO TOPIC ---

So which are good ergo keyboard designs, we shall consider the following:

* Mechanical switches is best. Red for gamers, Blues if you want them to click, Clears if Browns are too soft for you, otherwise Browns.

* Non-staggered is best.

* Split (like TE) or with groups of keys separated (like Kinesis/Maltron) is best.

* Narrow keyboard is best.

* Able to reprogram is better.

* Available.

Considering the above, the real options with Mechanical switches:
* Maltron/Kinesis-Advantage
* TrulyErgonomic

Options with rubber domes:
* TypeMatrix
* MS 4000 – Sculpt.
* Goldtouch, Kinesis-Freestyle2.

--- EOF ---

[hoggy]

Deleted

[davkol]

...

*MOD EDIT: blatantly inappropriate and hurtful namecalling edited out*

Do you have *any* evidence that people behind those projects "stole"  anything from Maltron? Obviously, you don't.

FYI different people/cultures have developed same technology/ideas/tools independently in the past. And you probably haven't ever heard the Newtons quote...

[Architect]

1. The nonsplit-angled design. The angled design's great. Good step in the right direction. But I find it not angled enough for my own liking - others may find it too much (I doubt it), or like me, too little, or they might just get lucky and find it perfect, as you did. But to use one would require me to conform to the board, which defeats the purpose of an ergonomic solution.

That's cool, it doesn't work for you. The maltron or Kinesis is partially split, the Dox is fully split. Pick one you like.

2. It's still flat. And not being split, you can't tent it, even if you wanted to.

Sure, a keyboard can't be everything to everybody. I don't like tenting, tried vertical keyboards and mice, hated it.

3. Immensely weird layout, for someone new to the ergogame. The column of keys at the center? Its subjective, but I find it a little perplexing. It's something I could probably adapt to if I wanted, but I don't get the benefit.

Then remap it.

What I really don't get is this - how quickly you dismiss the ergodox, and for reasons that doesn't really make sense. Too big?

I believe the total foot print of the Dox is larger than that of the TECK. Perhaps I'm wrong, I haven't made a mockup of the Dox.

But that aside, lets get back to the flat design - another one of your criticisms against the ergodox. The ergodox is tentable, or I could have left it flat, like the TECK is. I wouldn't have a choice to do the reverse with the TECK. You state that you don't like the flat design, but isn't that exactly what the TECK is, with no recourse for changing it?

I thought I said that the TECK was flat, but with curved keycaps? Maybe in another thread ... anyhow TECK implements the curve in the keycaps, not the key wells, where the Dox is flat. Unless you find or have made a custom set of curved keycaps like the TECK. 

its baffling how you see the ergodox as a 'box of part and unfinished aluminium or acrylic'.

It's a DIY project isn't it? What company sells finished Dox keyboards?

I don't mean to come across rude (if I do come across that way), but I just don't see how anyone could look at the TECK (a flat, non-adjustable, non split, and only recently programmable) and the ergodox (the modularity is a modder's dream, and the ease of use and the similarity to the kinesis layout), and objectively say that the TECK is a better keyboard.

OK you found him

I get it - you've found something that fits your needs, and you want to share the joy. It's the same with me and the ergodox. But as anyone familiar with the principles of ergonomics should be - you should realise that what fits one person doesn't necessarily fit another.

Not trying to say it's the perfect keyboard, which is why I highlight what I see as the strengths and weakness of each one. I haven't written everything in this post, but also in others. I've used ergo boards for 20 years of professional life so have a few things to say about them, and a few opinions.

But what I don't get is this - the bias and fervent (almost blind) promotion of the TECK as the best ergoboard available. Its great you found your perfect board, but recommending to others spouting its debatable virtues (when you do seem to know you're biased), does seems more than a little irresponsible, doesn't it?

As opposed to the frequent biased opinions of Dox lovers (and others) on this board? How often do we see automatic answers to somebody asking for a new keyboard "Get a Dox"? I see it a lot. But I don't complain about it. I just bring up my reasons for liking the TECK, some hopefully useful points to consider, and I bring up issues and good points I see with other boards. And if you look at my post above you'll see "For me it has all the best elements" and "Maybe I'm biased because I like it so much but I don't see a lot of disadvantages" - does that sound like I'm saying it's the BEST ergo keyboard for EVERYBODY?

I don't understand the ad-hominem though, why did you have to put that in? Keeping to discussing the topic instead of my preferences would have been better.  But since you did I'll tell you why I talk about the good aspects of the TECK so much, because I think the board gets an unfair bad rap on this board. It seems like as soon as TE announced the board and the preorder program people developed a conspiracy hatred of the company. I personally was excited about the design because it was similar to one I had been thinking of for a long time. So I would talk about why I liked it. Boy was that a mistake! Everybody (it seemed) on this board got on the conspiracy wagon. It was embarrassing - I thought - for people to want to believe such crazy stories. Didn't stop them. Here we are years later, TE proved they are legitimate and came out with everything they promised (just longer than promised), and we still hear conspiracy ideas. Who has the problem here?

So there's my personal motivations. I like the board, I think there is too much bias against them due to marketing blunders, so I'm pointing out what I think the good things are about it.

[Larken]

But what I don't get is this - the bias and fervent (almost blind) promotion of the TECK as the best ergoboard available. Its great you found your perfect board, but recommending to others spouting its debatable virtues (when you do seem to know you're biased), does seems more than a little irresponsible, doesn't it?

As opposed to the frequent biased opinions of Dox lovers (and others) on this board? How often do we see automatic answers to somebody asking for a new keyboard "Get a Dox"? I see it a lot. But I don't complain about it. I just bring up my reasons for liking the TECK, some hopefully useful points to consider, and I bring up issues and good points I see with other boards. And if you look at my post above you'll see "For me it has all the best elements" and "Maybe I'm biased because I like it so much but I don't see a lot of disadvantages" - does that sound like I'm saying it's the BEST ergo keyboard for EVERYBODY?

I don't understand the ad-hominem though, why did you have to put that in? Keeping to discussing the topic instead of my preferences would have been better.  But since you did I'll tell you why I talk about the good aspects of the TECK so much, because I think the board gets an unfair bad rap on this board. It seems like as soon as TE announced the board and the preorder program people developed a conspiracy hatred of the company. I personally was excited about the design because it was similar to one I had been thinking of for a long time. So I would talk about why I liked it. Boy was that a mistake! Everybody (it seemed) on this board got on the conspiracy wagon. It was embarrassing - I thought - for people to want to believe such crazy stories. Didn't stop them. Here we are years later, TE proved they are legitimate and came out with everything they promised (just longer than promised), and we still hear conspiracy ideas. Who has the problem here?

So there's my personal motivations. I like the board, I think there is too much bias against them due to marketing blunders, so I'm pointing out what I think the good things are about it.

I'm gonna skip through the early parts of your reply first - regarding the actual discussion of the keyboard. Mostly because I can see we have differing opinions on the TECK and Dox and we're obviously not going to agree on stuff there.

As for the 'supposed' ad hominem - let me clarify that it was not meant as an attack. I haven't been here long enough to get involved or care to get involved with the whole conspiracy idea; it was a sincere question. But I appreciate the reply, and here's mine;

And as for the TECK, I don't hate it, but I wouldn't buy one either, simply because I don't think its a good design. It's nothing personal, against either the TECK or you, but it seems to have been taken that way. If you feel attacked, I apologize.

And while it made not have been clear, I have made the point several times that I don't have a problem with you liking your TECK alot. In fact, I understand it. Keyboard preferences are immensely personal, I get that.

But what I was puzzled about, was how quickly you dismissed the ergodox with regards to the concerns you raised; because as far as configurability, adjustability, the ergodox is every bit as capable as the TECK, and perhaps even more so. I'll appreciate it if you could take a second reading of my original post in a different light; one that is not meant as an attack against the TECK.

And to address a few of the points you raised earlier, the curvature -  The only curved keys I see are the center column, and as far as usability is concerned, I don't see how that is an improvement. Again, I'm not saying the ergodox layout is superior. It isn't. But I don't think that the TECK's curved keys bring any ergonomic superiority into the game as well.

As as for the typing plane is concerned, the TECK is a flat board, unless there's something else about the curved construction of the TECK I'm missing.

And as for the topic how you see the dox as a box of parts; sure, if you take the point literally. I don't have a problem with that.

But what I compare is the potential function that the finished product is capable of.  It is a concern for when purchasing a keyboard, yes, but I don't think taking the need for assembly as a concern for ergonomics is a fair point to make at all.

As opposed to the frequent biased opinions of Dox lovers (and others) on this board? How often do we see automatic answers to somebody asking for a new keyboard "Get a Dox"? I see it a lot. But I don't complain about it.

I know this happens in the forum. Alot. And most of the whole "Get a Dox" thing is being perpetrated by the resident forum troll. For what's it worth, I find that irresponsible too. I ignore the trolls. I didn't think you're a troll at all, so I was trying to understand the reason for the bias. You just answered it, and I appreciate the reply.

My main concern here is ergonomics. Nothing else. I'm not interested to start an argument over the internet. I simply thought there was a reason why you tried to promote the TECK so much, and why you appear to dismiss the ergodox so swiftly.

But since you did I'll tell you why I talk about the good aspects of the TECK so much, because I think the board gets an unfair bad rap on this board.

So there's my personal motivations. I like the board, I think there is too much bias against them due to marketing blunders, so I'm pointing out what I think the good things are about it.

And since the answer has nothing to do with ergonomics, I have no interest in continuing this conversation either. You enjoy your TECK and I'll continue using my Dox.

[kurplop]

LET US BE CLEAR. Here is some educational information for all of you who believe the ErgoDox is the center of the universe, “a masterpiece”, and that we all owe a debt of gratitude to “him”.

Being the one who suggested that we owe "him" a debt of gratitude I feel I must respond.

As I looked through the key64 site I saw a compilation of ideas from other keyboards and other input devices. I don't think "he" ever claimed originality for most of the components of his design but rather its orchestration. I think that even the good people at Maltron would readily admit that they didn't invent switches that are activated with fingers or the electricity that powers them. 

The Kinesis design was likely inspired by the groundwork laid by Maltron but I'm not a lawyer and not qualified to speak to issues of copyright infringement or intellectual  property ethics. What I have witnessed in the last several years is a eagerness on the part of Kinesis to respond to the concerns of their customers. A  quality I greatly admire.

I do try to be fair with the TECK. I believe it is becoming a good keyboard. I own two and thought they were, ergonomically, a big step forward ahead of conventional keyboards. For those that would benefit from a non tented, minimally split keyboard, it is a fine board. I think whenever I have publicly criticized their customer service skills I also mentioned that. 

I have RSI, severe arthritis and until a surgery weeks ago, CTS. Somehow, I was able to assemble an ErgoDox without too much trouble. Many wouldn't be interested in taking the time to build their own but it isn't that challenging for those willing to try. I don't think the ErgoDox is the last word in keyboard ergonomics but the next step. 

I currently think the shortcomings of the ErgoDox are
1. Not optimum placing of the thumb clusters. Multi height thumb keys help.
2. It still is an enthusiasts keyboard requiring additional features like built in tenting, rubber pads for feet, etc. before it could be mainstreamed.
3. Like all ergo boards, they require some re-education; a hurdle most people aren't willing to jump.
4. The two piece design is great for finding your ideal positioning but it does have its drawbacks. Mostly portability issues.
5. Any tented design will necessarily raise the keyboards height. A keyboard tray or adjustable desk are possible solutions

I agree that the ErgoDox was a collaboration of many. ErgoDox lovers owe Dox, Ic07, neslax, bpiphany and others a debt of gratitude.   

"If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the shoulders of giants."   - Isaac Newton

[CPTBadAss]

Just for curiousity's sake. What keyboard designs did the Key64 influence? Am I correct in thinking that the ErgoDox kit was based on the Key64 or borrowed heavily from it? I've never seen the Key64 before.

And FWIW, I think that, the ErgoDox, and the ErgoGP are the ergonomic boards that I'm most interested in.

[Lanx]

I know this happens in the forum. Alot. And most of the whole "Get a Dox" thing is being perpetrated by the resident forum troll.

we have a troll on the ergo forums? that shouldn't be, who is this?

[Architect]

And since the answer has nothing to do with ergonomics, I have no interest in continuing this conversation either. You enjoy your TECK and I'll continue using my Dox.

Fair enough, the conversation has overstayed it's welcome. Well spoken otherwise.

I actually do like the Dox, I was on the very first buy but then canceled and dropped off the board due to all the TECK hate. Even now I'd get one just for the collection if nothing else, but the problem is I need more than one keyboard. I have four at my desk (circular sit-stand desk with three work stations), one at work and one for traveling. Too much to solder. Also I don't understand the function keys, I wonder why Dox left them off? I suggested Fn keys and an extra thumb key on either side for a modifier but I think he was already settled in the design. I use Fn keys constantly in the work I do ... anyhow I guess people map them to a layer (I map F13-F24 to F1-F12 in my Fn layer).

[Larken]

I actually do like the Dox, I was on the very first buy but then canceled and dropped off the board due to all the TECK hate. Even now I'd get one just for the collection if nothing else, but the problem is I need more than one keyboard. I have four at my desk (circular sit-stand desk with three work stations), one at work and one for traveling. Too much to solder. Also I don't understand the function keys, I wonder why Dox left them off? I suggested Fn keys and an extra thumb key on either side for a modifier but I think he was already settled in the design. I use Fn keys constantly in the work I do ... anyhow I guess people map them to a layer (I map F13-F24 to F1-F12 in my Fn layer).

For what its worth, I don't hate the TECK or the company behind it. I am just rather ambivalent about the design and the benefits it could bring.

If you're still looking at the possibility of a dox, you ought to check out the forked design that Acidfire is working on here:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.0

If all goes to plan, he should be offering the keyboard pre-assembled, so there's no soldering involved.

Plus, he does plan for modular thumb clusters in which you could choose additional thumb keys to a degree) - up to 3 additional 1u buttons if the 2u thumb keys are to be kept. So that's one thing off your list.

As for the fn keys and the Dox, you're correct to say that most people use layers to access those. I deal alot more in straightforward prose, so I do not miss them. However, I can see how it might be a little annoying to not have dedicated Fn keys for certain kinds of work, and yes, there simply isn't enough keys on the board to provide for such a thing even if I wanted.

But if it helps makes things clearer (as I do not know how layers are implemented on the TECK to draw a comparison), there are two ways of accessing keys on a different layer.

Layer Toggle; where I press AND hold the layer toggle key to activate the layer, which goes away once I release the toggle button. This should work similarly to a standard Fn layer.

Layer Push; functionally, its the same as Toggle. Except that I press it once without holding, and it activates the layer. It only goes back to layer 0 if I hit another key they call the Layer Pop.

Not sure if it makes sense when described like the above, but it's the best I can manage at this time.

[vivalarevolución]

It seems that some members of this forum have fundamental misunderstanding of the process of innovation.  Most great, original ideas derive from previous ideas and innovations.  People build upon the knowledge of others, refine it, tweak it, improve it.  You could call it stealing from others, but the creation of anything new often requires a base preexisting ideas.

So maybe the Ergodox is stolen from the flat version of Maltron's 1970s design.   But Maltron did not split the keyboard, add endless programmability, throw in those extra middle keys, offer a detachable cable, etc.  And a few people collaborated and created a new product.  Done.  If nobody was taking a bit from other's ideas, we humans would never create anything new.

[Azteca]

Innovation is awesome, Newton’s quotes are cool, as I already mentioned before: “Embrace innovation”.

But when the ErgoDox-DIY-Kit individual with a money-making-agenda steals a design and claims it as his, or as they call it “conceived by the community”, is nauseating.

• Programmability and detachable cable are not part of a design – these are features.
• “throw in those extra middle keys”? Maltron has the same thumb keys plus the middle numeric keypad.
• Splitting a stolen design in half is NOT innovation.

If anyone creates something innovative, then you can claim something and can use a License like MIT or GNU. But a design itself, cannot be stolen and claim to be “conceived by the community”.

Furthermore:

• if you know/like soldering, forget about the ErgoDox-DIY-Kit and support the ErgoGP http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.0
• if you don’t like or don’t know/care about soldering and assembling, get a Kinesis-Advantage or TrulyErgonomic.

[Linkbane]

I don't have that agenda, and I agree with nesiax.

Report me as well if you like.

Agreed. Architect is either a horrendous advertiser or great troll, because the way he manages to spout his opinions and false claims is a massive turn-off which pushes people away from the NTECK. The way he boasted in your original thread about your 'expensive grand piano' was particularly amusing also.
I would like to put out the opinion that A) we continue watching him embarrass himself or B) the moderators ban him, owing to the worthlessness of his opinion.

[Azteca]

I don't have that agenda, and I agree with nesiax.

Report me as well if you like.

Agreed. Architect is either a horrendous advertiser or great troll, because the way he manages to spout his opinions and false claims is a massive turn-off which pushes people away from the NTECK. The way he boasted in your original thread about your 'expensive grand piano' was particularly amusing also.
I would like to put out the opinion that A) we continue watching him embarrass himself or B) the moderators ban him, owing to the worthlessness of his opinion.

There is a 3rd option: your lack of intellect in addition to you and your body’s money-making-agendas are blinding you that Architect simply likes his TECK. Unfortunately there are too many of you with time to spare and just one of him.

Embrace innovation, as in new products and new ideas, not as in stolen designs. This forum is about “keyboard enthusiasts”, not about let’s-hate-the-guy-that-loves-his-keyboard.

I don’t like repeating myself,
I don’t like repeating myself,
I don’t like repeating myself, but

• if you know/like soldering, forget about the ErgoDox-DIY-Kit and support the ErgoGP http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.0
• if you don’t like or don’t know/care about soldering and assembling, get a Kinesis-Advantage or TrulyErgonomic.

[kaltar]

Ok... no more off-topic, please. Just Ideas good design ergo keyboard.

I can't wait to see AcidFire's finished keyboard. The wireless split will be just great and clean. However, I do think the Kinesis contoured is so comfy to type due the contour (the different keys height is just great) And that is something that, IMHO, is almost #1 in my list. If Kinesis made a split one with adjustable angles, that would be as perfect as I can think now (for me, that is).

So I think the best would be a combination: contoured, split (adjustable to n-distance) and adjustable angle (0 to 90)
And of course: programable. No layout is perfect for everyone.

[hoggy]

I agree that a split Kinesis would be fantastic.  A bastard child of the Advantage with the (something like) the accessories of the Freestyle and there'll be a queue with me near the front.

Anyone tempted to design a case to make use the of 'keywells' that Kinesis sell separately (and reasonably cheaply) as an upgrade?   

[kaltar]

I agree that a split Kinesis would be fantastic.  A bastard child of the Advantage with the (something like) the accessories of the Freestyle and there'll be a queue with me near the front.

Anyone tempted to design a case to make use the of 'keywells' that Kinesis sell separately (and reasonably cheaply) as an upgrade?

Acidfire says it's incredible difficult to do plus you have all this speciality key caps

[PhineasRex]

Honestly I just want a regular split mechanical board.

[Thimplum]

Maltron then flattened THEIR design and sell it as the Maltron Dual Hand Flat (2D).
http://www.maltron.com/index.php/shop/category/47-maltron-dual-hand-2d-flat-keyboards
Does it resemble something if you remove the middle keys?
Yes. The Kinesis-Advantage
Does it resemble something if you remove the middle keys, remove the Function keys, and break it in two pieces?
Does it look like the ErgoDox? No, it doesn’t look like, IT IS IDENTICAL.

Guys, help. I'm worried. I took a turd and turned the carbon in into diamond and then put it on display. It's still kinda in the same shape of the turd. Is my *** going to sue me? HELP! I'M SCARED!

[kaltar]

Guys, help. I'm worried. I took a turd and turned the carbon in into diamond and then put it on display. It's still kinda in the same shape of the turd. Is my *** going to sue me? HELP! I'M SCARED!

 ) You better lawyer up!

[Thimplum]

Guys, help. I'm worried. I took a turd and turned the carbon in into diamond and then put it on display. It's still kinda in the same shape of the turd. Is my *** going to sue me? HELP! I'M SCARED!

 ) You better lawyer up!

Can you PLEASE healp?

[Azteca]

Guys, help. I'm worried. I took a turd and turned the carbon in into diamond and then put it on display. It's still kinda in the same shape of the turd. Is my *** going to sue me? HELP! I'M SCARED!

You better lawyer up!

Can you PLEASE healp?

Had Microsoft owned the Maltron patent, neither the Kinesis-Advantage nor the ErgoDox would have never existed.

Just because Maltron is not currently interested in suing anyone, it doesn’t make it acceptable to steal a design and claim it as conceived by “the community”.

[hoggy]

So there shouldn't be any keyboards that look like a microsoft ergo keyboard?









And here are a few keyboards that look like close relatives to another keyboard...

[Oobly]

Great post, Hoggy. Come on, guys, let's not be so uptight about all this.

Personally I think the ErgoGP / Nexus is about the best choice for combining programmability / customisation and ergonomics. I also like the Maltron and Kinesis designs with curved keywells. The flat thumb clusters of Ergodox don't appeal to me, although it's  MUCH better than a standard board.

Then again, none of the existing boards is really what I am after personally, so I am designing my own.. I'll post it in the building things together forum when I get a bit further with it.

[hoggy]

Then again, none of the existing boards is really what I am after personally, so I am designing my own.. I'll post it in the building things together forum when I get a bit further with it.

Cool!  Any tantalising hints/clues you could give us?  Hope it goes well.

[Oobly]

Then again, none of the existing boards is really what I am after personally, so I am designing my own.. I'll post it in the building things together forum when I get a bit further with it.

Cool!  Any tantalising hints/clues you could give us?  Hope it goes well.

Sneak preview pic. I really want to get it working before posting more, but I am quite happy with how it is going so far.

[hoggy]

Oobly, looks really good!  Good luck with the build.

[kaltar]

Then again, none of the existing boards is really what I am after personally, so I am designing my own.. I'll post it in the building things together forum when I get a bit further with it.

Cool!  Any tantalising hints/clues you could give us?  Hope it goes well.

Sneak preview pic. I really want to get it working before posting more, but I am quite happy with how it is going so far.

We want MOOOOOOOREEEEEEEEEE!!!!!

[natas206]

FYI, the Kinesis-Advantage also “stole” the Maltron design (there are other discussions about this elsewhere). Furthermore to Kinesis, they didn’t design their “Maxim” either - they just rebranded the Fujitsu Siemens KBC-5600. Even worse, their last offering moves away from mechanical switches and matrix style key layout with their Freestyle2 - a copycat of the Goldtouch or ErgoFlex.

You should probably have all your facts straight before making such claims, Azteca.

We spent over two years designing the Kinesis Contoured keyboard.

As for the Maxim, it is an old-school keyboard made by Siemens which is pretty standard. We've sold for 15-20 years now. It is rubber dome. We feel the Freestyle keyboard is a far superior keyboard since it can be completely split and has more versatility, which Kinesis designed and was intended to replace the Maxim, however there are so many loyal Maxim users who continue to buy the product we keep selling it. Re-branded? So what? As a company, we try to be a "one stop shop" for your Ergonomic needs and offer various choices since every person has different needs and problems.

Listen - when it comes to Ergo keyboards everyone has their own preferences and believe it or not, the majority of users don't even know the difference between mechanical keys or rubber domes and many prefer the feel of rubber domes. Personally, I love mechanical keys like most everyone here and I would never switch, but honestly this isn't even the majority of people. Cost is obviously another issue as customers don't understand or don't care why mechanical keyboards cost so much more.

Kinesis has about 12 employees. We are a small company, a close-knit family that work hard to make and offer quality ergo products. We are far from some evil large corporation you make us out to be.

Also, to say the ErgoDox is a stolen idea is absurd as well. Kinesis has absolutely zero connection with the ErgoDox so there is no bias when I say it's a fine keyboard.  I witnessed a community come together on this forum and make it happen. Truly an amazing accomplishment. I am very happy to be apart of this community and interact with members on a regular basis. It can be at times inspiring.

 

[kurplop]

natas206-  I wouldn't worry too much about the Kinesis reputation being marred by the careless accusations being flung by the few. I think people can see through it. I've been following your comments for some time now and your responses are always tempered and thoughtful; A real class act. Kinesis also stands on its own as an honorable company that stands behind its products. We need more companies like that.

[kaltar]

The flat thumb clusters of Ergodox don't appeal to me, although it's  MUCH better than a standard board.

Has anyone tried original Kinesis keycaps in the thumb clusters of ergoDox?

If they fit, Im pretty sure that something could be arranged with Kinesis. I do not own an ergoDox, (missed the last drop) but Im waiting for Acidfire's version, and it will have the same problem people mention.

I do not work in Kinesis, but I can say they are a pleasure to deal with, and the contoured models are really really confy! They just need to make a hard carry case so I can take it with my laptop everywhere!

[Findecanor]

So there shouldn't be any keyboards that look like a microsoft ergo keyboard?

I don't think it is fair to call the Datadesk Smartboard a "Microsoft ergo look-alike".

Sneak preview pic. I really want to get it working before posting more, but I am quite happy with how it is going so far.

I like what you did with the thumb clusters!

I hurt the side of my Space bar-thumb the other day, and noticed that I always hit the Space bar with the side of my thumb (where it hurt the most to press  ), and I am not sure that pressing on the side of the thumb is very good for the thumb in the long run.

Has anyone tried original Kinesis keycaps in the thumb clusters of ergoDox?

Of course they fit. They are standard keycaps. Both Kinesis contoured and ErgoDox have standard Cherry MX switches and standard key spacing.