The Living Soldering Thread

[swill]

just to ask all of you

If I'm desoldering a modern keyboard, something built in the past 10 years. Can I safely expect it to be done using lead free solder?

Am wondering why Cherry keyboards seem to be so easy to desolder, but most other modern keyboards seem harder.

Is the Filco Majestouch 2 built using lead free solder?

The Ducky Shine 3?

The Tipro/ Cherry POS keyboards of the past 10 years?

Just trying to get a grip on how long desoldering should take. I always panic when I hold a tip to a solder joint for 10 seconds and nothing seems to happen. That was the case with some solder joints on my Tipro (it was also 2x sided PCB).

Yet on some keyboards (especially Cherry), it takes only 1-2 seconds for the solder to fully melt and be totally extractable in one pop of the soldapullt.

As I don't have a temperature regulator, I don't know how hot my solder iron is.

When you add heat, add solder too and it will help wet the existing solder joint and it will melt faster.

I recently desoldered a QFR and I don't think they used lead free solder cause it melted fine with my normal temp (once new solder was added).

Hope that helps.

[PandaSPUR]

this is actually exactly what we're talking about. the panavise 300 base is way way better than any helping hands. panavise sells a pcb holding kit for it, but i'm not crazy about most of it, particularly the stem and crossbar. melvang and i worked out a better replacement, which he has made a couple batches of. for a full pcb holding solution, one of his stem and crossbar sets plus a panavise 316 set is fantastic. he's saying additionally that he thinks he can make a superior replacement for the 316 as well.

in theory, i have his last batch of stem and crossbar sets that i am selling on commission for him (i think? you just sent them to me melvang , i have no idea what to do with them). but in practice, they're in a moving box and not in the same place i am right now XD

Let me know if you're selling please

And for how much $$

[korrelate]

I haven't been soldering/desoldering for very long. So the other night I sat down to pull the Monterey Blues from an old Chicony and I got about 3/4 of the way through when my 808 took a sh*t on me. Completely inoperative. I'd pull the trigger and nothing. No sound coming from the pump whatsoever.

I packed everything up, went to bed and that was. Just read the manual earlier today and in the troubleshooting section it indicated that the cause was probably a blocked filter (behind the collection cup). My filter was definitely dirty but I didn't think that was enough to shut the pump down. I took their word for it, changed the filter and bang! Fully operational again. I ran that poker/spring contraption back through the nozzle just for the heck of it and I was back up and running again in no time.

Now that I am really used to the 808 (and a bit more familiar with desoldering in general) I can honestly say that the 808 rocks. I zipped through the remainder of that board in no time. Two key things to remember:

1. Heat the leads, not the solder.
2. Don't release the trigger until AFTER you've lifted the nozzle back off the lead (even then I keep it pressed for a little bit longer). I acutally practice this a bit every time I sit down. If you don't get this right the solder will block the nozzle and you've just squandered your time advantage on nozzle maintenance (i.e. cleaning the blockages from the nozzle).


Cheers,

K

[mkawa]

this is actually exactly what we're talking about. the panavise 300 base is way way better than any helping hands. panavise sells a pcb holding kit for it, but i'm not crazy about most of it, particularly the stem and crossbar. melvang and i worked out a better replacement, which he has made a couple batches of. for a full pcb holding solution, one of his stem and crossbar sets plus a panavise 316 set is fantastic. he's saying additionally that he thinks he can make a superior replacement for the 316 as well.

in theory, i have his last batch of stem and crossbar sets that i am selling on commission for him (i think? you just sent them to me melvang , i have no idea what to do with them). but in practice, they're in a moving box and not in the same place i am right now XD

Let me know if you're selling please

And for how much $$

i want to take further conversation about this out of this thread, because it is artisan, but please contact melvang and work things out with him. he will let me know what to send where after he is paid directly

[mkawa]

I haven't been soldering/desoldering for very long. So the other night I sat down to pull the Monterey Blues from an old Chicony and I got about 3/4 of the way through when my 808 took a sh*t on me. Completely inoperative. I'd pull the trigger and nothing. No sound coming from the pump whatsoever.

I packed everything up, went to bed and that was. Just read the manual earlier today and in the troubleshooting section it indicated that the cause was probably a blocked filter (behind the collection cup). My filter was definitely dirty but I didn't think that was enough to shut the pump down. I took their word for it, changed the filter and bang! Fully operational again. I ran that poker/spring contraption back through the nozzle just for the heck of it and I was back up and running again in no time.

Now that I am really used to the 808 (and a bit more familiar with desoldering in general) I can honestly say that the 808 rocks. I zipped through the remainder of that board in no time. Two key things to remember:

1. Heat the leads, not the solder.
2. Don't release the trigger until AFTER you've lifted the nozzle back off the lead (even then I keep it pressed for a little bit longer). I acutally practice this a bit every time I sit down. If you don't get this right the solder will block the nozzle and you've just squandered your time advantage on nozzle maintenance (i.e. cleaning the blockages from the nozzle).


Cheers,

K

there are three ways to try to clear the tip. 1) heat the 808 up to a higher temp than normal (use the tiny trim pot on the handle), wait a bit then hit the vacuum button until it's clear

2) heat the iron up to working temp and use the 1.0mm wire that comes with the 808 to shove the semi-molten solder through the tip

3) do this cold: take the tip off and drill through it. you will generally make the opening more than 1.0mm when you do this, but if you're as close to 1mm as you can get, the tip will still be usable.

that said, i have like 3 reserve tips because if you screw up really badly, you often won't be able to clear it without drilling. it's very easy to be sucking up soldering in a long session, forget to change the filter and end up clogging your tip. it's easily the biggest problem with the 808

[Lingj]

Working on my 2nd soldering project, an Ergodox! Just waiting for my metal case to come in.


DSCN3186 by Linggj, on Flickr


DSCN3187 by Linggj, on Flickr

[mkawa]

yay! geekhack benefits everytime someone takes on a DIY project head on

[nomaded]

I just finished my 2nd ErgoDox (first one that I did completely myself) yesterday. There's flux left over on all the joints. I have a flux cleaning pen, but the flux has hardened quite a bit so need to scrub at the flux with the pen tip quite a bit.

Is there a better way to clean the flux? Should I even bother? About the only reason I want to do this is to get rid of a lingering flux odor.

[swill]

I just finished my 2nd ErgoDox (first one that I did completely myself) yesterday. There's flux left over on all the joints. I have a flux cleaning pen, but the flux has hardened quite a bit so need to scrub at the flux with the pen tip quite a bit.

Is there a better way to clean the flux? Should I even bother? About the only reason I want to do this is to get rid of a lingering flux odor.

I will let someone else answer this because I am also interested.

I tried using isopropyl alcohol and a nylon brush, but that didn't really do anything.  I ended up just scratching off the worst flux puddles and then cleaned with isopropyl alcohol and a nylon brush.  I would REALLY like a better solution because the flux on the board bothers me (since all my builds end up having clear case options)...

[domoaligato]

did you use 99% isopropyl alcohol or a lower percentage version?


edit: I have heard good things about this. does anyone here have any experience with it?

http://uk.farnell.com/electrolube/flu400db/fluxclene-can-aero-brush-400ml/dp/725663

[swill]

did you use 99% isopropyl alcohol or a lower percentage version?

Yes, 99% isopropyl alcohol. I had tried 70% rubbing alcohol at one point before I got the 99% stuff and obviously that did not work for me either.

[domoaligato]

I have soldered and desoldered my matte black gh60 rev.a pcb tons already and managed to clean it up just fine with just q tips and 99% iso.

Has anyone tried one of those deflux aerosol cans before?

[swill]

I am trying to find lint-free Kim wipes, but I am having a hard time finding them.

[jameslr]

You can try acetone or safe lacquer thinner, rinse with distilled water. That's what I did for my Filco I just resoldered new switches onto. Clean as a whistle now. I wouldn't put it on anything but the underside of the board though. No telling what that stuff does to other components like SMD, etc.

[mkawa]

kim wipes are kind of a waste of money when you can use a toothbrush and soap quite successfully.

for actual sensitive lint-free high purity fiber situations, i recommend photographic solutions pec pads instead. i also recommend eclipse lens cleaner (anhydrous methyl alcohol) for serious cleaning of sensitive components.

that said, i don't think you need any of these things for pcbs. a tooth brush, a menda pump dispenser and MG chem anhydrous isopropyl from fry's is like, overkill even. soap and water is also quite effective, just use 70-90% iso as a final rinse to dry everything off.

[swill]

kim wipes are kind of a waste of money when you can use a toothbrush and soap quite successfully.

for actual sensitive lint-free high purity fiber situations, i recommend photographic solutions pec pads instead. i also recommend eclipse lens cleaner (anhydrous methyl alcohol) for serious cleaning of sensitive components.

that said, i don't think you need any of these things for pcbs. a tooth brush, a menda pump dispenser and MG chem anhydrous isopropyl from fry's is like, overkill even. soap and water is also quite effective, just use 70-90% iso as a final rinse to dry everything off.

I will try a toothbrush, I think that will make a big difference. 

[MOZ]

+1 for toothbrush,

I have used gasoline (petrol) and works great, although mkawa said something about cancer, so I started using gloves while working with gasoline. But yeah, gasoline followed by a wipe with max conc. IPA.

[HoffmanMyster]

+1 for toothbrush,

I have used gasoline (petrol) and works great, although mkawa said something about cancer, so I started using gloves while working with gasoline. But yeah, gasoline followed by a wipe with max conc. IPA.

For the record, this is not recommended.

[SpAmRaY]

+1 for toothbrush,

I have used gasoline (petrol) and works great, although mkawa said something about cancer, so I started using gloves while working with gasoline. But yeah, gasoline followed by a wipe with max conc. IPA.

What about the smell? Doesn't it linger?

[Lastpilot]

Anyone have a reliable online resource shipping within US for 1% 470 Ohm resistors? Also looking for a place to get SMD led's for NerD 60% PCB's...

[CPTBadAss]

Anyone have a reliable online resource shipping within US for 1% 470 Ohm resistors? Also looking for a place to get SMD led's for NerD 60% PCB's...

Mouser is usually my go-to for electrical components.

[tgujay]

What do you guys think of this unit?

http://www.amazon.com/ALL-ONE-X-TRONIC-SOLDERING-PREHEATING/dp/B00DRHRZ3S/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top?ie=UTF8

[mkawa]

i am VERY down on aoyue and x-tronic. they cheap out on every important component to try to out-bullet-point the competition at their price points. further, you don't need 90% of that stuff. to solder, all you need is a very high quality hot stick. more and you're risking crappy heaters, less and you could injure yourself, frankly.

[MJ45]

What do you guys think of this unit?

http://www.amazon.com/ALL-ONE-X-TRONIC-SOLDERING-PREHEATING/dp/B00DRHRZ3S/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top?ie=UTF8

Wow you could even make a grilled cheese sandwich with that thing!

[berserkfan]

i am VERY down on aoyue and x-tronic. they cheap out on every important component to try to out-bullet-point the competition at their price points. further, you don't need 90% of that stuff. to solder, all you need is a very high quality hot stick. more and you're risking crappy heaters, less and you could injure yourself, frankly.

Mkawa, in your opinion is these ever a real need for amateurs to use expensive soldering stations?

Here I offer my experiences:

1)   All soldering is done as fast as I can move. Even on my cheapo soldering iron, once its hot and tinned, I can barely pull the solder spool fast enough.
2)   The real problem comes in keeping the tip shiny. I don’t have any idea how to do this well. Thus far I am using sandpaper and Brasso (obviously after the tip cools) but people tell me not to over sand. What will happen if the copper inside is exposed? Shop owners have told me that price of soldering station has nothing to do with the most important component by far, the soldering iron tip.
3)   It is desoldering that leads to tears and frustration for me. It’s hell. It takes multiple tries and lots of solder wick and endless pumps on my soldapullt, and even when a switch looks desoldered it often isn’t. How will an expensive station help?
4)   When soldering small things I feel the challenge doesn’t lie in the soldering station but finding a way to hold the components in place. Again a more expensive station won’t help. Neither will these helping hands.
5)   LEDs and capacitors also give me problems. But powerful heat doesn’t seem to be the solution. I think what I need are sharper tips capable of delivering heat only to the tiny pads. I’m worried about the effects on the PCB after a period of heating.

[jacobolus]

2)   The real problem comes in keeping the tip shiny. I don’t have any idea how to do this well. Thus far I am using sandpaper and Brasso (obviously after the tip cools) but people tell me not to over sand.

I have basically no trouble with this using a Hakko 888D and the kit tip it came with. The wet sponge is the most important tool here. Wipe the tip on the sponge very frequently, every time you want to set the iron down. Occasionally adding some solder to the tip and wiping it on the brass sponge gets off slightly more stuck stuff and restores the tip to like-new condition. I don’t think you should ever need to resort to sandpaper.

3)   It is desoldering that leads to tears and frustration for me. It’s hell. It takes multiple tries and lots of solder wick and endless pumps on my soldapullt, and even when a switch looks desoldered it often isn’t. How will an expensive station help?

What are you desoldering? For desoldering keyboard switches I don’t ever need any solder wick. Just heat the joint with an iron and suck with the soldapullt and BAM. When the switch leads are bent over and pressed down onto the pad, it takes another 2 steps: (1) heat the joint and suck the solder out with soldapullt, (2) heat the bent-over lead and pad and pry the two apart using a dental pick – it’s usually quite easy to get the lead to 'pop' loose of the pad it was stuck to, once most of the solder is gone, (3) bend the lead straight with some pliers.

4)   When soldering small things I feel the challenge doesn’t lie in the soldering station but finding a way to hold the components in place. Again a more expensive station won’t help. Neither will these helping hands.

Have you tried a panavise?

[ninjadoc]

How did I do on my first soldering job? Sorry about the mess; I don't have 99% isopropyl alcohol to clean off the flux.

Show Image

Show Image

A little heavy on some of the joints, but not bad for a first time.

I just soldered my first board and that was the impression I had of how they should look. Can someone post a picture of how the joints should look? Thanks

[SpAmRaY]

How did I do on my first soldering job? Sorry about the mess; I don't have 99% isopropyl alcohol to clean off the flux.

Show Image

Show Image

A little heavy on some of the joints, but not bad for a first time.

I just soldered my first board and that was the impression I had of how they should look. Can someone post a picture of how the joints should look? Thanks

I had the same impression when I started.

Take a look at some of photoelectric's soldering

https://secure.flickr.com/photos/photoelectric_effect/12596084714/in/set-72157640117516876

https://secure.flickr.com/photos/photoelectric_effect/13943665963/in/photostream/

[Lastpilot]

 Just tried it out last night. Soldering is really fun :]

[nubbinator]

How did I do on my first soldering job? Sorry about the mess; I don't have 99% isopropyl alcohol to clean off the flux.

Show Image

Show Image

A little heavy on some of the joints, but not bad for a first time.

I just soldered my first board and that was the impression I had of how they should look. Can someone post a picture of how the joints should look? Thanks

I had the same impression when I started.

Take a look at some of photoelectric's soldering

https://secure.flickr.com/photos/photoelectric_effect/12596084714/in/set-72157640117516876

https://secure.flickr.com/photos/photoelectric_effect/13943665963/in/photostream/

Those are plated through holes, so that's not really a good example.

I'm still not an expert solderer by any means, but a good solder joint should form a little volcano shape.  The on the left on PB5 and PB7 look like they have just a hair too much solder from the side since they're bulging out.  Nothing bad, just could do a little less.  PB5 looks funky from the top though.  I also can't tell if the one on the left on PB7 is a good joint.  It almost looks like it's cupping in at the bottom and not bonded well to the pad, like it's a cold joint.  The one on the right on PB7 looks like it might need more solder or just needs to be reflowed.

It's really hard to tell from the quality of photo how the joints are.  Like I said though, they don't look like bad solder joints from what I can tell from the photo and PB6 looks spot on from what I can see.

[margo baggins]

use thinner solder - if your joints are bulging and full of too much solder, use thinner solder.

I use 2 thicknesses of solder - thin for soldering, thick for desoldering.

Thick is great for flooding an area, thin is great for making a joint. Another thing I do, I tend to use a beveled tip for everything now, and generally speaking I load up the tip with solder and keep loading that, then I let it flow into the hole, sometimes I do a quick rotation round the hole to get it all hot and the solder nice. Bah i'm rubbish at explaining but I know what I mean

I love bevelled tips, can drag solder with them, load the tip with solder, grab solder off joints with them. I used to be all about the chisel tip.

To answer the questions about desoldering stations above: I have a kind of love hate relationship with mine. I certainly don't think I would do without it since having one, but it costs an awful lot of time and money to keep it operational. Everytime I use it, there is lengthy stripping and cleaning that has to happen afterwards (well, I guess you couldn't but then it might be even more expensive to replace!) and the tips don't have too long a life. some tips I only get 200 goes out of before they start to disintergrate - but as the tips perish I just add more and more solder as a heat bridge, once everything there is hot and melty it sucks it all up. And tips are expensive in the region of £6 each, and yeah, I buy some every month at the moment.

[nomaded]

I have soldered and desoldered my matte black gh60 rev.a pcb tons already and managed to clean it up just fine with just q tips and 99% iso.

I had some 91% isopropyl alcohol in the medicine cabinet with some q-tips. I was able to dissolve most of the lumps of flux, but the PCB is not completely clean. I'll probably get some 99% at some point and go over the PCB at some point.

Thanks for the pointers, guys.

[berserkfan]

use thinner solder - if your joints are bulging and full of too much solder, use thinner solder.

I use 2 thicknesses of solder - thin for soldering, thick for desoldering.

Thick is great for flooding an area, thin is great for making a joint. Another thing I do, I tend to use a beveled tip for everything now, and generally speaking I load up the tip with solder and keep loading that, then I let it flow into the hole, sometimes I do a quick rotation round the hole to get it all hot and the solder nice. Bah i'm rubbish at explaining but I know what I mean

I love bevelled tips, can drag solder with them, load the tip with solder, grab solder off joints with them. I used to be all about the chisel tip.

To answer the questions about desoldering stations above: I have a kind of love hate relationship with mine. I certainly don't think I would do without it since having one, but it costs an awful lot of time and money to keep it operational. Everytime I use it, there is lengthy stripping and cleaning that has to happen afterwards (well, I guess you couldn't but then it might be even more expensive to replace!) and the tips don't have too long a life. some tips I only get 200 goes out of before they start to disintergrate - but as the tips perish I just add more and more solder as a heat bridge, once everything there is hot and melty it sucks it all up. And tips are expensive in the region of £6 each, and yeah, I buy some every month at the moment.

Would it help you to buy from Taobao? 6 pounds seem way too much. About 4-5 times as much as prices I've seen on TB IIRC. I wouldn't be saying this if your tips were lasting, but 200 seems ridiculously poor. An amateur like me in a humid place with cheap tips can do better than that so I am wondering if you have the wrong supplier or if I am missing something. I'm still using the same 3 tips (Brassoed and sanded after running into oxidation) after working on several thousand joints. But since I don't live in Europe (ie am not using lead free) that may be the reason for my relative ease.

[WhiteRice]

Does it matter if the leads to the controller come from the top or bottom of the columns?

e.g. opposite of,

[Melvang]

Does it matter if the leads to the controller come from the top or bottom of the columns?

e.g. opposite of,

Show Image

The only time it matters is if the diodes are on the columns.  And then all it takes is moving the leads from bottom to tip or vice versa.  This I think is one reason why hand wired keyboards use diodes on the rows.  If you screw up the direction it is much less wires to move.

[tjcaustin]

use thinner solder - if your joints are bulging and full of too much solder, use thinner solder.

I use 2 thicknesses of solder - thin for soldering, thick for desoldering.

Thick is great for flooding an area, thin is great for making a joint. Another thing I do, I tend to use a beveled tip for everything now, and generally speaking I load up the tip with solder and keep loading that, then I let it flow into the hole, sometimes I do a quick rotation round the hole to get it all hot and the solder nice. Bah i'm rubbish at explaining but I know what I mean

I love bevelled tips, can drag solder with them, load the tip with solder, grab solder off joints with them. I used to be all about the chisel tip.

To answer the questions about desoldering stations above: I have a kind of love hate relationship with mine. I certainly don't think I would do without it since having one, but it costs an awful lot of time and money to keep it operational. Everytime I use it, there is lengthy stripping and cleaning that has to happen afterwards (well, I guess you couldn't but then it might be even more expensive to replace!) and the tips don't have too long a life. some tips I only get 200 goes out of before they start to disintergrate - but as the tips perish I just add more and more solder as a heat bridge, once everything there is hot and melty it sucks it all up. And tips are expensive in the region of £6 each, and yeah, I buy some every month at the moment.

Would it help you to buy from Taobao? 6 pounds seem way too much. About 4-5 times as much as prices I've seen on TB IIRC. I wouldn't be saying this if your tips were lasting, but 200 seems ridiculously poor. An amateur like me in a humid place with cheap tips can do better than that so I am wondering if you have the wrong supplier or if I am missing something. I'm still using the same 3 tips (Brassoed and sanded after running into oxidation) after working on several thousand joints. But since I don't live in Europe (ie am not using lead free) that may be the reason for my relative ease.

He's talking about tips for a desoldering station, not a soldering iron.  They're expensive and have a terrible lifespan.

[jdcarpe]

Just wanted to mention here that I recently switches from my trusty Hakko FX-888D to a Hakko FP-101. For the hobbyist, the 888 is a great station, and more than you'll probably ever need. But for someone who does a bit more soldering, the (obsolete) FP-101, or its replacement the FX-951, is a nice upgrade. Yes, it retails for $262, but you can definitely tell it's money well spent.

[margo baggins]

Just wanted to mention here that I recently switches from my trusty Hakko FX-888D to a Hakko FP-101. For the hobbyist, the 888 is a great station, and more than you'll probably ever need. But for someone who does a bit more soldering, the (obsolete) FP-101, or its replacement the FX-951, is a nice upgrade. Yes, it retails for $262, but you can definitely tell it's money well spent.

Nice! Can't really get very much hakko stuff over here, Photek managed to find a supplier but it's really ££££.

I have been on the lookout for a new station for a while. I half want a metcal ps900, I used the sp200 and I didn't like that, but I had a go on a ps900 recently and it rocked my world! just a whole lot of money. But the shortlist is currently metcal or an edsyn station, 2020 maybe.

[berserkfan]

He's talking about tips for a desoldering station, not a soldering iron.  They're expensive and have a terrible lifespan.

Do you mind enlightening me about soldering stations? I am quite the noob. You see, I am starting to do more soldering and actually just ordered a low end set of soldering tweezers which at $49 shipped are nothing compared with what a pro might use but which of course cost a fortune considering all my 3 soldering irons together don’t cost so much. Of course I was also starting to cast my eyes on the stations since you pros talk so much about them.

Why would a pro want to use something that costs so much more to maintain? Is it because of the lead free solder? I spend 3 seconds on each solder joint so if a pro can spend 1 second per joint I can see the reason for buying expensive tips. But remember, I am always using leaded.

[mkawa]

Just wanted to mention here that I recently switches from my trusty Hakko FX-888D to a Hakko FP-101. For the hobbyist, the 888 is a great station, and more than you'll probably ever need. But for someone who does a bit more soldering, the (obsolete) FP-101, or its replacement the FX-951, is a nice upgrade. Yes, it retails for $262, but you can definitely tell it's money well spent.

the 888 series really really shows the cost cutting hakko put into it. any of the midgrade stations or assembly line classics (weller wes51d, hakko 936 (NOT AOYUE OR OTHER CHINESE CLONE) and edsyn 951 series) are much much sturdier, safer and just better stations to use.

[SpAmRaY]

Just wanted to mention here that I recently switches from my trusty Hakko FX-888D to a Hakko FP-101. For the hobbyist, the 888 is a great station, and more than you'll probably ever need. But for someone who does a bit more soldering, the (obsolete) FP-101, or its replacement the FX-951, is a nice upgrade. Yes, it retails for $262, but you can definitely tell it's money well spent.

Does that one have the quick change tips with different colors for different sizes?

And the more comfortable handle design.

I've enjoyed my edsyn 951sxe so far, using it alongside the hakko 808.

[jdcarpe]

Just wanted to mention here that I recently switches from my trusty Hakko FX-888D to a Hakko FP-101. For the hobbyist, the 888 is a great station, and more than you'll probably ever need. But for someone who does a bit more soldering, the (obsolete) FP-101, or its replacement the FX-951, is a nice upgrade. Yes, it retails for $262, but you can definitely tell it's money well spent.

Does that one have the quick change tips with different colors for different sizes?

And the more comfortable handle design.

I've enjoyed my edsyn 951sxe so far, using it alongside the hakko 808.

Yes, you can buy the grips in different colors, and its the part that locks the tip into the handle, with a quick release. The handle is much more comfortable than the one from the 888, and just feels more natural in the hand.

[dorkvader]

Just wanted to mention here that I recently switches from my trusty Hakko FX-888D to a Hakko FP-101. For the hobbyist, the 888 is a great station, and more than you'll probably ever need. But for someone who does a bit more soldering, the (obsolete) FP-101, or its replacement the FX-951, is a nice upgrade. Yes, it retails for $262, but you can definitely tell it's money well spent.

For that price you can (alternatively) upgrade again to metcal PS900 with smartheat. This is the newest version of my "daily" station and it's amazing. It is 90W (60W to the iron) so it responds extremely quickly to temperature / thermal load changes. This means it heats up in about 8 seconds. I can change tips in about a second (maybe 2 if I miss the heater first try )

I got mine used on eBay for much less than MSRP. It's not as good as my pace MBT250, buot that thing retails for about $1400 so it's in an entirely different class.

[margo baggins]

He's talking about tips for a desoldering station, not a soldering iron.  They're expensive and have a terrible lifespan.

Do you mind enlightening me about soldering stations? I am quite the noob. You see, I am starting to do more soldering and actually just ordered a low end set of soldering tweezers which at $49 shipped are nothing compared with what a pro might use but which of course cost a fortune considering all my 3 soldering irons together don’t cost so much. Of course I was also starting to cast my eyes on the stations since you pros talk so much about them.

Why would a pro want to use something that costs so much more to maintain? Is it because of the lead free solder? I spend 3 seconds on each solder joint so if a pro can spend 1 second per joint I can see the reason for buying expensive tips. But remember, I am always using leaded.

it's DEsoldering station - it is a unit with a bellow pump in it and then there is a gun shaped hand held - it has a massive tip on the end that has a hole in it, different tips have different sized holes - you use some solder and stick the tip over a through-hole solder joint, heat it through and suck the solder out. The problem is this is not good for the tips, they get gauged and bashed frequently by component legs, you can't tin the end at all really because of the shape, and after a while the tip between the hole and the outside of the tip starts to disintergrate - the more the hole loses it's integrity right at the end the worse your thermal interface becomes, and then you have to add more and more solder as a heat bridge or you start to mess up pcbs or just have crap desoldering abilities. It's worth it - becuase when really concentrating you can desolder a full 105 board in about 15 - 20 minutes.

[berserkfan]

Why would a pro want to use something that costs so much more to maintain? Is it because of the lead free solder? I spend 3 seconds on each solder joint so if a pro can spend 1 second per joint I can see the reason for buying expensive tips. But remember, I am always using leaded.

it's DEsoldering station - it is a unit with a bellow pump in it and then there is a gun shaped hand held - it has a massive tip on the end that has a hole in it, different tips have different sized holes - you use some solder and stick the tip over a through-hole solder joint, heat it through and suck the solder out. The problem is this is not good for the tips, they get gauged and bashed frequently by component legs, you can't tin the end at all really because of the shape, and after a while the tip between the hole and the outside of the tip starts to disintergrate - the more the hole loses it's integrity right at the end the worse your thermal interface becomes, and then you have to add more and more solder as a heat bridge or you start to mess up pcbs or just have crap desoldering abilities. It's worth it - becuase when really concentrating you can desolder a full 105 board in about 15 - 20 minutes.
[/quote]

Now everything makes sense!

The tip would definitely cost far more since it has a much more complicated shape/ harder to make.

It would die more easily because it is so much harder to tin properly.

But 'bashed by component legs'? You're not talking about keyboards alone are you? Because I can see that happening with some components, but not Cherry MX switch legs or LEDs in general.

Desoldering is definitely a huge pain for double sided PCB. But that speed suggests you need maybe 750 seconds for 420 joints, which means 1.6 seconds per joint. It's undoubtedly a big boon.

I still see no reason for people to spend too much money on their soldering stations though. If we're talking keyboards or the PCBs we can see in daily life eg TV, monitor, computer, how often do we really get big solder joints? Most of the time it's more like frustratingly teeny weeny joints that require teeny weeny tips and presumably very little heat, 20w or whatever, just because the pads are so tiny. Why would pros want to apply powerful heat to joints the size of a teensy pad for instance? I personally (from disastrous teensy experience) would prefer a very agile/small tip, power below 30w, and to use a 0.5mm or smaller solder wire on most of the joints that I will ever need to solder in a modern household.

being a noob my experience doesn't count for much. I'm just wanting to hear what the pros think. Their reasoning must be right -but why is it right?

[Melvang]

Why would a pro want to use something that costs so much more to maintain? Is it because of the lead free solder? I spend 3 seconds on each solder joint so if a pro can spend 1 second per joint I can see the reason for buying expensive tips. But remember, I am always using leaded.

it's DEsoldering station - it is a unit with a bellow pump in it and then there is a gun shaped hand held - it has a massive tip on the end that has a hole in it, different tips have different sized holes - you use some solder and stick the tip over a through-hole solder joint, heat it through and suck the solder out. The problem is this is not good for the tips, they get gauged and bashed frequently by component legs, you can't tin the end at all really because of the shape, and after a while the tip between the hole and the outside of the tip starts to disintergrate - the more the hole loses it's integrity right at the end the worse your thermal interface becomes, and then you have to add more and more solder as a heat bridge or you start to mess up pcbs or just have crap desoldering abilities. It's worth it - becuase when really concentrating you can desolder a full 105 board in about 15 - 20 minutes.

Now everything makes sense!

The tip would definitely cost far more since it has a much more complicated shape/ harder to make.

It would die more easily because it is so much harder to tin properly.

But 'bashed by component legs'? You're not talking about keyboards alone are you? Because I can see that happening with some components, but not Cherry MX switch legs or LEDs in general.

Desoldering is definitely a huge pain for double sided PCB. But that speed suggests you need maybe 750 seconds for 420 joints, which means 1.6 seconds per joint. It's undoubtedly a big boon.

I still see no reason for people to spend too much money on their soldering stations though. If we're talking keyboards or the PCBs we can see in daily life eg TV, monitor, computer, how often do we really get big solder joints? Most of the time it's more like frustratingly teeny weeny joints that require teeny weeny tips and presumably very little heat, 20w or whatever, just because the pads are so tiny. Why would pros want to apply powerful heat to joints the size of a teensy pad for instance? I personally (from disastrous teensy experience) would prefer a very agile/small tip, power below 30w, and to use a 0.5mm or smaller solder wire on most of the joints that I will ever need to solder in a modern household.

being a noob my experience doesn't count for much. I'm just wanting to hear what the pros think. Their reasoning must be right -but why is it right?
[/quote]

It is difficult for me to explain but search swipe technique for smd on YouTube.

[dorkvader]

It is difficult for me to explain but search swipe technique for smd on YouTube.

I never got that to work, instead I take a thin tip and solder every pin individually. If I want to go faster / higher production, I'd buy a toaster oven and paste.

That said, they make huge knife blade soldering tips for that technique.


Here's my take on soldering stations, cross posted from another topic:

Soldering stations: Well it really depends. See, you can solder with just a cheap iron. A big expensive station makes it easier. I like temperature-sensing stations (like PACE sensatemp and OKI / Metcal smartheat). They sense the thermal load on the tip and respond accordingly. Since it's backed by 60 W - 130 W it responds really quick. This means it heats up in less than 10 seconds and also melts joints quickly (even if they are on ground plane.) But the best part about it, is also the part that makes them ideal for line soldering is that they heat up pretty much any joint in exactly the same amount of time. This means you know when the joint will melt before it does and can keep heat off it for longer. This is the part that makes it a lot easier for me, and why I recommend such systems, especially over a temperature adjustable one. Good stations usually have a lot more and better tips available. Good tips can also last a lot longer. My cheapie iron tip lasted like a year of minimal use. My "good" metcal tips have lasted several years of good use, and the temperature shock of thousands of desoldered joints. It has some oxidation away from the tinned-area, but the tinned area is thick and bright and as shiny as they day I got it.

[mkawa]

prefer slide soldering with cupped tips for hand smd

[margo baggins]

I think the cupped tips are called gulwing aren't they? I manage just fine with bevelled tip, even without the dish you can load up the flat side with ample solder to drag over the ic legs, or likewise it can hold ample solder to dump on pads. I hate hand soldering smd, I only really do it for touch up or repair, most times I smd solder with paste and hot air.

[hasu]

To refer soldering tip shapes unambiguously is sometime difficult, to me at least. So I made this table with hoping it helps myself and others somewhat. Let me know if you find something wrong or missing.

Soldering tip shapes:

hakko	weller	metcal	edsyn	pace	jbc	description
B	conical	conical	conical	conical	-	standard cone
C/BC	spade	bevel	angle face	bevel	-	beveled cone
D	chisel	chisel	spade	chisel	-	screw driver
CM/BCM	gull wing	hoof	mini-flow	mini-wave	mini spoon	beveled with hollow, dimple or cup