Author Topic: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)  (Read 129947 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline n__dles

  • Posts: 116
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #650 on: Tue, 26 January 2016, 23:28:00 »
Too lazy to figure out how to properly quote this since it's locked.
"After the first GB, I'll let Melissa know that anyone is free to use these legends.  Including other forums, including vendors." - hashbaz
It appears if anyone did own anyone rights they were given away. I doubt anyone ever did have rights, but I'm not a lawyer. Even if I were this is getting too pedantic and tangential, no more OT posts from me.

Offline HoffmanMyster

  • HOFF, smol MAN OF MYSTERY
  • * Senior Moderator
  • Posts: 10913
  • Location: WI
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #651 on: Tue, 26 January 2016, 23:32:06 »
Also, zslane, Geekhack or its representative does in fact own the rights to the legend molds for the Cherry replica font sometimes used in DCS sets. Or possibly the molds themselves. That's why you don't see it advertised on their site as an option for legend fonts.

Yeah I think that a lot of people commenting need to read up on the history before making such claims.


And Melvang you outlined a lot of great points about what leads to cost increases, but what you're forgetting is that a good business will forecast those costs and account for them in the price of the product.  You don't realize "Oh crap! Our things break!" and quick boost your cost after ten years of business.

Resin costs increasing is probably the most reasonable point, but I already mentioned that resin isn't terribly expensive (again I don't know the scale at which they purchase), and an X% increase in material cost would still only equate to a <X% increase in finished product cost.  Obviously I am not the be-all-end-all expert on this, but I do not think it's a major contributing factor.

Offline LXXXIX

  • Posts: 617
  • Location: Florida
  • Just remember all caps when you spell the man name
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #652 on: Tue, 26 January 2016, 23:32:52 »
Out of curiosity, why the aversion to MassDrop?  If anything, it's a selling point for me.

Pulse2 is planning to run on there very very soon (allegedly). Besides some people want to run it on our home turf instead of through them.

In case anyone cares I made a more honest thread on SP's sub-forum which can be found here.

Offline gadzkun

  • Posts: 555
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #653 on: Tue, 26 January 2016, 23:33:52 »
vote JTK RUN for an affordable and reasonable price!!! B-)
vote GMK Run for an exclusive keyset!!! B-)

I'm not familiar with GMK's group buy terms and conditions. In what way are their keysets "exclusive" where SP's are not?

If you hit MOQ once, probably nobody will hit again :^)


THIS!!!

Does MassDrop run group buys for GMK sets? If so, wouldn't that be an effective way to reach those MOQ numbers that GMK is so infamous for?

Does MassDrop run group buys for GMK sets? If so, wouldn't that be an effective way to reach those MOQ numbers that GMK is so infamous for?

Yes they do but it's not always successful, GMK Snes for example.

if the keyset price just like GMK TA maybe it will easily hit MOQ

Offline jdcarpe

  • * Curator
  • Posts: 8854
  • Location: Odessa, TX
  • Live long, and prosper.
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #654 on: Tue, 26 January 2016, 23:36:20 »
Out of curiosity, why the aversion to MassDrop?  If anything, it's a selling point for me.
Mostly because of their closed ecosystem. But also, because of the shipping fiasco with TA.
KMAC :: LZ-GH :: WASD CODE :: WASD v2 :: GH60 :: Alps64 :: JD45 :: IBM Model M :: IBM 4704 "Pingmaster"

http://jd40.info :: http://jd45.info


in memoriam

"When I was a kid, I used to take things apart and never put them back together."

Offline jdcarpe

  • * Curator
  • Posts: 8854
  • Location: Odessa, TX
  • Live long, and prosper.
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #655 on: Tue, 26 January 2016, 23:38:27 »
Also, zslane, Geekhack or its representative does in fact own the rights to the legend molds for the Cherry replica font sometimes used in DCS sets. Or possibly the molds themselves. That's why you don't see it advertised on their site as an option for legend fonts.

Yeah I think that a lot of people commenting need to read up on the history before making such claims.


And Melvang you outlined a lot of great points about what leads to cost increases, but what you're forgetting is that a good business will forecast those costs and account for them in the price of the product.  You don't realize "Oh crap! Our things break!" and quick boost your cost after ten years of business.

Resin costs increasing is probably the most reasonable point, but I already mentioned that resin isn't terribly expensive (again I don't know the scale at which they purchase), and an X% increase in material cost would still only equate to a <X% increase in finished product cost.  Obviously I am not the be-all-end-all expert on this, but I do not think it's a major contributing factor.
That's true, but they could have been using much more raw material than expected. They were probably pricing SA the same as DCS, while using twice as much plastic. Someone eventually noticed the shortfall.
KMAC :: LZ-GH :: WASD CODE :: WASD v2 :: GH60 :: Alps64 :: JD45 :: IBM Model M :: IBM 4704 "Pingmaster"

http://jd40.info :: http://jd45.info


in memoriam

"When I was a kid, I used to take things apart and never put them back together."

Offline Melvang

  • Exquisite Lord of Bumfluff
  • * Maker
  • Posts: 4388
  • Location: Waterloo, IA
  • Melvang's Desktop Customs
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #656 on: Tue, 26 January 2016, 23:41:26 »
Also, zslane, Geekhack or its representative does in fact own the rights to the legend molds for the Cherry replica font sometimes used in DCS sets. Or possibly the molds themselves. That's why you don't see it advertised on their site as an option for legend fonts.

Yeah I think that a lot of people commenting need to read up on the history before making such claims.


And Melvang you outlined a lot of great points about what leads to cost increases, but what you're forgetting is that a good business will forecast those costs and account for them in the price of the product.  You don't realize "Oh crap! Our things break!" and quick boost your cost after ten years of business.

Resin costs increasing is probably the most reasonable point, but I already mentioned that resin isn't terribly expensive (again I don't know the scale at which they purchase), and an X% increase in material cost would still only equate to a <X% increase in finished product cost.  Obviously I am not the be-all-end-all expert on this, but I do not think it's a major contributing factor.
That's true, but they could have been using much more raw material than expected. They were probably pricing SA the same as DCS, while using twice as much plastic. Someone eventually noticed the shortfall.

Possible EPA fines, new plastics supplier, different plastics supplier for that particular color they weren't expecting?  Could be a number of things.
OG Kishsaver, Razer Orbweaver clears and reds with blue LEDs, and Razer Naga Epic.   "Great minds crawl in the same sewer"  Uncle Rich
Order Form for MDC Mouse Pad
Contact Form for questions

IBM F Revival Services Now with VIDEO

Offline hashbaz

  • Grand Ancient One
  • * Moderator Emeritus
  • Posts: 5057
  • Location: SF Bae Area
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #657 on: Tue, 26 January 2016, 23:45:28 »
Not calling you out, though I doubt it's accuracy. That means that every time that font is used someone has to authorize it. Who are those people?
I believe it's hashbaz
hash does

Yeah, I do actually own the rights to the Cherry legend molds. I have no idea what this means in actual legal terms, but in terms of SP policy it means that those molds can't be used without my authorization. Could I walk into SP and demand the physical molds? Probably not. But Melissa does check with me any time someone asks her to use the Cherry font. The only stipulation I have ever put on their use is that any new legends that are created that might reasonably be considered part of the Cherry font get contributed back to the set so that others can access them.

Okay, right, I think that is part of SP's terms and conditions. However, if I'm not mistaken, those same terms and conditions also allow anyone else to provide font outline files and pay for their own set of Cherry replica font legend plates if they want to. In other words, SP won't allow someone else to use GH's plates (without GH's permission), but that doesn't preclude someone else from making the same effort and paying for the same exact result.

You are correct that anyone else can pay for duplicate tooling and get the same look. I've shared the SVG files with plenty of people, so they are out there, and it's not actually that difficult to recreate them from scratch. It's about ownership of the physical molds, not the images themselves.

From what I can tell, however, the same Ts&Cs don't seem to apply to shell molds, because otherwise 7bit would outright own quite a few of them, would he not?

I'm not sure what you mean by shell molds. 7bit owns the legends that he originated in his GBs in the same way that I own the Cherry legends.

Too lazy to figure out how to properly quote this since it's locked.
"After the first GB, I'll let Melissa know that anyone is free to use these legends.  Including other forums, including vendors." - hashbaz
It appears if anyone did own anyone rights they were given away. I doubt anyone ever did have rights, but I'm not a lawyer. Even if I were this is getting too pedantic and tangential, no more OT posts from me.

Like I said above, Melissa contacts me every so often and I talk to the GB runner and make sure they're on board with sharing new legends as appropriate (usually there aren't any). It's still very much in force. What I meant by this post was that I had no intention of limiting the Cherry font to just geekhack. At the time, there was no GMK and vintage Cherry keys were in very high demand. I wanted to make sure people knew that we considered the font to be usable by the entire enthusiast community.

Offline HoffmanMyster

  • HOFF, smol MAN OF MYSTERY
  • * Senior Moderator
  • Posts: 10913
  • Location: WI
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #658 on: Tue, 26 January 2016, 23:46:08 »
Also, zslane, Geekhack or its representative does in fact own the rights to the legend molds for the Cherry replica font sometimes used in DCS sets. Or possibly the molds themselves. That's why you don't see it advertised on their site as an option for legend fonts.

Yeah I think that a lot of people commenting need to read up on the history before making such claims.


And Melvang you outlined a lot of great points about what leads to cost increases, but what you're forgetting is that a good business will forecast those costs and account for them in the price of the product.  You don't realize "Oh crap! Our things break!" and quick boost your cost after ten years of business.

Resin costs increasing is probably the most reasonable point, but I already mentioned that resin isn't terribly expensive (again I don't know the scale at which they purchase), and an X% increase in material cost would still only equate to a <X% increase in finished product cost.  Obviously I am not the be-all-end-all expert on this, but I do not think it's a major contributing factor.
That's true, but they could have been using much more raw material than expected. They were probably pricing SA the same as DCS, while using twice as much plastic. Someone eventually noticed the shortfall.

Possible EPA fines, new plastics supplier, different plastics supplier for that particular color they weren't expecting?  Could be a number of things.

Yep.  But still none of these explain the discrepancy between customers.  :thumb:

Offline zslane

  • Posts: 2270
  • Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #659 on: Tue, 26 January 2016, 23:55:26 »
From what I can tell, however, the same Ts&Cs don't seem to apply to shell molds, because otherwise 7bit would outright own quite a few of them, would he not?

I'm not sure what you mean by shell molds. 7bit owns the legends that he originated in his GBs in the same way that I own the Cherry legends.

I've read elsewhere that 7bit's previous group buys included funding to have profile molds fabricated for SA keys in sizes/rows that did not yet exist in SP's inventory. Those molds are very expensive (around $5k each), and SP seems to keep a very tight grip on them regardless of how they are paid for.

But I could be confusing things in my own mind. It could be that the only things he ever paid for were legend plates, and merely convinced SP to invest in the row molds but didn't fund their fabrication himself.
« Last Edit: Tue, 26 January 2016, 23:57:03 by zslane »

Offline HoffmanMyster

  • HOFF, smol MAN OF MYSTERY
  • * Senior Moderator
  • Posts: 10913
  • Location: WI
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #660 on: Tue, 26 January 2016, 23:58:18 »
From what I can tell, however, the same Ts&Cs don't seem to apply to shell molds, because otherwise 7bit would outright own quite a few of them, would he not?

I'm not sure what you mean by shell molds. 7bit owns the legends that he originated in his GBs in the same way that I own the Cherry legends.

I've read elsewhere that 7bit's previous group buys included funding to have profile molds fabricated for SA keys in sizes/rows that did not yet exist in SP's inventory. Those molds are very expensive (around $5k each), and SP seems to keep a very tight grip on them regardless of how they are paid for.

I don't think that SP would allow the community to own those molds, which is part of the reason that the community did not directly fund the Row 4 Shift molds for SA sets.  But I am not 100% certain on all the factors that played into that.

I'm curious, zslane, what's your experience related to this?  Have you worked in the industry, a similar industry, etc?

Offline Homenubbie

  • Posts: 103
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #661 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 00:15:22 »
Also, zslane, Geekhack or its representative does in fact own the rights to the legend molds for the Cherry replica font sometimes used in DCS sets. Or possibly the molds themselves. That's why you don't see it advertised on their site as an option for legend fonts.

Yeah I think that a lot of people commenting need to read up on the history before making such claims.


And Melvang you outlined a lot of great points about what leads to cost increases, but what you're forgetting is that a good business will forecast those costs and account for them in the price of the product.  You don't realize "Oh crap! Our things break!" and quick boost your cost after ten years of business.

Resin costs increasing is probably the most reasonable point, but I already mentioned that resin isn't terribly expensive (again I don't know the scale at which they purchase), and an X% increase in material cost would still only equate to a <X% increase in finished product cost.  Obviously I am not the be-all-end-all expert on this, but I do not think it's a major contributing factor.

Oil prices are at new lows.  Doubt plastic prices are rising.

Offline zslane

  • Posts: 2270
  • Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #662 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 00:31:03 »
I don't think that SP would allow the community to own those molds, which is part of the reason that the community did not directly fund the Row 4 Shift molds for SA sets.  But I am not 100% certain on all the factors that played into that.

I think you're 100% right about that, HM.

Quote
I'm curious, zslane, what's your experience related to this?  Have you worked in the industry, a similar industry, etc?

No. My direct experience in this matter began with my own efforts to get the SHIF T legend corrected last year. I created a corrected legend file, sent it to SP and had samples made for 2.75u DSA Shift keys to test the process, which everyone on DT assured me SP would screw up. The samples were perfect, but ultimately pointless as SP then decided to correct them on their own.

This coincided with closely following the various efforts to get the row 4 shift molds funded (including independent efforts to do so on my part via Melissa). Which coincided with helping 7bit create proper SVG definitions for his Space Cadet legends.

All of which has been in parallel with my current project to get an SA Dasher project off the ground (IC thread is forthcoming).

So while my experience does not reach into the deep recesses of custom keycap history, it at least has the virtue of being up-to-date with the issues (including the clarification of SP's terms and conditions and the illusion of ownership they grant to keycap designers and legend plate funders alike).

Offline FrostyToast

  • Litshoard
  • * Exquisite Elder
  • Posts: 2368
  • Location: Canada
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #663 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 00:31:35 »
Honestly it makes sense for production costs to be higher due to time, but the sudden increase seems odd since they should have already evaluated that.
A 50% increase solely due to unaccounted production expenses seems hardly fair or believable.
Quote from: elton5354
I don't need anymore keyboards

Offline Niomosy

  • Posts: 1239
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #664 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 00:49:15 »
Also, zslane, Geekhack or its representative does in fact own the rights to the legend molds for the Cherry replica font sometimes used in DCS sets. Or possibly the molds themselves. That's why you don't see it advertised on their site as an option for legend fonts.

Yeah I think that a lot of people commenting need to read up on the history before making such claims.


And Melvang you outlined a lot of great points about what leads to cost increases, but what you're forgetting is that a good business will forecast those costs and account for them in the price of the product.  You don't realize "Oh crap! Our things break!" and quick boost your cost after ten years of business.

Resin costs increasing is probably the most reasonable point, but I already mentioned that resin isn't terribly expensive (again I don't know the scale at which they purchase), and an X% increase in material cost would still only equate to a <X% increase in finished product cost.  Obviously I am not the be-all-end-all expert on this, but I do not think it's a major contributing factor.
That's true, but they could have been using much more raw material than expected. They were probably pricing SA the same as DCS, while using twice as much plastic. Someone eventually noticed the shortfall.

Possible EPA fines, new plastics supplier, different plastics supplier for that particular color they weren't expecting?  Could be a number of things.

Yep.  But still none of these explain the discrepancy between customers.  :thumb:

Right, that brings us back to volume buying via a single entity.  That or, as was speculated, SP is trying to move all such group buys to MD / PMK rather than have individuals continue to run a number of group buys.  While has a somewhat conspiracy theory feel to it, I can see where SP would want to streamline business and move the enthusiast ordering into MD/PMK.

Of course, this is still all speculation on our part.  I'm curious to see an SA set go up on MassDrop to see what the pricing will be there.

Offline zslane

  • Posts: 2270
  • Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #665 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 00:50:58 »
We shouldn't have long to wait for that. What's up next? Nantucket Selectric?

Offline Niomosy

  • Posts: 1239
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #666 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 01:05:40 »
We shouldn't have long to wait for that. What's up next? Nantucket Selectric?

Seems like there are a few things in various stages.  That, Keyboard & Co, Retroblight, and Earfbound come to mind without looking at the IC thread list and that's just for ones on GH.  I believe PuLSE R2 is due Soon (TM) per MiTo's Reddit thread. 

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/42ro8o/whitefox_pulse_r2_dropping_very_soon/
« Last Edit: Wed, 27 January 2016, 01:08:25 by Niomosy »

Offline n__dles

  • Posts: 116
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #667 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 02:45:41 »
Yeah, I do actually own the rights to the Cherry legend molds. I have no idea what this means in actual legal terms, but in terms of SP policy it means that those molds can't be used without my authorization. Could I walk into SP and demand the physical molds? Probably not
Yeah I suck at communicating, if it wasn't clear I meant legal right. When I started posting people we're wanting to stick it to SP and get the physical mold / prevent SP themselves from using it.
Melissa does check with me any time someone asks her to use the Cherry font. The only stipulation I have ever put on their use is that any new legends that are created that might reasonably be considered part of the Cherry font get contributed back to the set so that others can access them.
Thanks for doing that.
no more OT posts from me.
uups

Offline MAR82

  • Posts: 492
  • Location: It says I'm in France
  • Keyboard Addict
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #668 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 07:04:31 »
Also, zslane, Geekhack or its representative does in fact own the rights to the legend molds for the Cherry replica font sometimes used in DCS sets. Or possibly the molds themselves. That's why you don't see it advertised on their site as an option for legend fonts.

Okay, right, I think that is part of SP's terms and conditions. However, if I'm not mistaken, those same terms and conditions also allow anyone else to provide font outline files and pay for their own set of Cherry replica font legend plates if they want to. In other words, SP won't allow someone else to use GH's plates (without GH's permission), but that doesn't preclude someone else from making the same effort and paying for the same exact result.

From what I can tell, however, the same Ts&Cs don't seem to apply to shell molds, because otherwise 7bit would outright own quite a few of them, would he not?

This is the same logic used at the conception of this set which was originally an exact copy of pulse because mito claimed that no one else could run a r2. Once I put the IC up he went ahead and announced his r2 after explicitly saying it would never happen again. So instead all efforts were shifted to creating our own improved set.

Unfortunately SP isn't going to budge on this pricing and I won't be taking it to pmk or MD. I am looking at alternative avenues to get it produced but no one else is currently offering SA profile so it's a bit of a challenge. I don't really want to run the set in another profile but I'll look into it..

Thats the status of this IC, you guys are free to discuss your theories elsewhere but the ONLY official statement given from SP on the issue is that we don't get discounted affordable pricing, even if we hit moq, because we are not Massdrop.

I know that SP used to be part of the Comptec group, and I also know that Comptec is still around in France with some of the same molds.
Would it be crazy to try to contact them or another old Comptec manufacturer for a price on the set?

Link to the French Comptec: http://comptec.fr/ang/presentation.htm

Offline jdcarpe

  • * Curator
  • Posts: 8854
  • Location: Odessa, TX
  • Live long, and prosper.
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #669 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 08:31:02 »
I know that SP used to be part of the Comptec group, and I also know that Comptec is still around in France with some of the same molds.
Would it be crazy to try to contact them or another old Comptec manufacturer for a price on the set?

Link to the French Comptec: http://comptec.fr/ang/presentation.htm

Hmmm, interesting. I didn't know Comptec was still around in France. Somehow I doubt they have sculpted SA molds, but maybe they have the uniform profile (Row 3) SA molds. Looks like they have DSA for sure, and most likely DCS.
KMAC :: LZ-GH :: WASD CODE :: WASD v2 :: GH60 :: Alps64 :: JD45 :: IBM Model M :: IBM 4704 "Pingmaster"

http://jd40.info :: http://jd45.info


in memoriam

"When I was a kid, I used to take things apart and never put them back together."

Offline KoalaKaiser

  • Posts: 60
  • Location: Third state to join the Union.
  • I make onions cry.
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #670 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 11:20:58 »
Uniform R3 wouldn't be too bad. If there's a cheaper price then I'm game.

Offline Niomosy

  • Posts: 1239
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #671 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 12:14:43 »
Out of curiosity, why the aversion to MassDrop?  If anything, it's a selling point for me.
Mostly because of their closed ecosystem. But also, because of the shipping fiasco with TA.

Perhaps, because I haven't had issue with MassDrop yet, I'm not seeing the closed ecosystem issue.  Would it be possible to elaborate on this?

Offline azhdar

  • Praise the AZERTY god
  • Posts: 2394
  • Location: France
  • 65% Enlighted
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #672 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 12:19:00 »

Offline livingspeedbump

  • * Exquisite Elder
  • Posts: 1552
  • Location: Seattle
  • Gentlemen, a bobsled is a simple thing.
    • KeyChatter
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #673 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 12:22:23 »
Out of curiosity, why the aversion to MassDrop?  If anything, it's a selling point for me.
Mostly because of their closed ecosystem. But also, because of the shipping fiasco with TA.

Perhaps, because I haven't had issue with MassDrop yet, I'm not seeing the closed ecosystem issue.  Would it be possible to elaborate on this?

The TA shipping wasn't fun at all. The first time out, I'm cool with it being their fault as much as GMKs fault. People getting bad replacement sets was pretty cringe worthy though. That part should have been fixed by MD of course, and eventually was.

Still, I am more prone to use MD because when **** does hit the fan, like TA, they generally speaking handled getting everyone refunded or squared away much quicker than a community run buy would have. You alway shave the comfort knowing you can get a refund from them if you do have issues with what you get, which often isnt the case otherwise because that money is just gone.

They also seem to try to find and make cool things for the community in my experience as well. Yeah, some stuff on there is just ****, but others are quite nice. Haata has mentioned in one of the interviews with him that they paid for a lot of the development and samples of things like the Infinity 60% and ErgoDox Infinity, things that otherwise would have been very hard to fund/produce.

So there are definitely ups and downs, of course, but I definitely don't side hard left or right on the matter and just see them as a company trying to make money, but also a company that at least tries to interact with the community much more than companies in other hobbies I've been part of. End of the day, yes, they are trying to make money. I don't really have an issue with that though, they are a company, not a community member after all.
<- My Collection (so far)

Offline SpAmRaY

  • NOT a Moderator
  • * Certified Spammer
  • Posts: 14668
  • Location: \(_o)/
  • because reasons.......
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #674 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 12:33:10 »
Where are these guests coming from :eek:

This thread seems to be quite popular.

Offline FLFisherman

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 2243
  • Location: FL
  • I'd rather be fishing.
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #675 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 12:37:10 »
Where are these guests coming from :eek:

This thread seems to be quite popular.

Reddit, maybe. Ripster linked it there.

Offline kiwi99

  • that's a gnarly dookie
  • Posts: 747
  • Location: Penticton, BC
  • authentic church of halverson member
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #676 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 13:16:12 »
unfortunate to see those price changes :( I hate when sets are broken up into child deals making you buy a plethora of packs of keys you don't need just to get the 1-2 keys you need for a slightly not standard layout. Really is too bad that SP has such a monopoly on the market.

Offline zslane

  • Posts: 2270
  • Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #677 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 13:42:06 »
Coming up with kit compositions is a tricky thing. Especially when it comes to alternate layouts and oddball boards like Planks and so on. Buyers with out-of-band needs are always going to be paying a hefty premium for the luxury of their non-standardness, as it were.

Offline Melvang

  • Exquisite Lord of Bumfluff
  • * Maker
  • Posts: 4388
  • Location: Waterloo, IA
  • Melvang's Desktop Customs
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #678 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 15:14:18 »
If this moves to the french based company just for cheaper prices, I am out.
OG Kishsaver, Razer Orbweaver clears and reds with blue LEDs, and Razer Naga Epic.   "Great minds crawl in the same sewer"  Uncle Rich
Order Form for MDC Mouse Pad
Contact Form for questions

IBM F Revival Services Now with VIDEO

Offline nubbinator

  • Dabbler Supreme
  • * Maker
  • Posts: 8658
  • Location: Orange County, CA
  • Model M "connoisseur"
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #679 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 15:17:12 »
If this moves to the french based company just for cheaper prices, I am out.

I'll buy one then even though I had no plan to as I hate the profile. 

I'm all for American products, but not when a company decides to screw you in favor of another despite history.

Offline baldgye

  • Will Smith Disciple
  • Posts: 4781
  • Location: UK
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #680 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 15:18:18 »
If this moves to the french based company just for cheaper prices, I am out.

lmao, cut the French some slack, they gave you a big statue

Offline Melvang

  • Exquisite Lord of Bumfluff
  • * Maker
  • Posts: 4388
  • Location: Waterloo, IA
  • Melvang's Desktop Customs
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #681 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 15:28:41 »
If this moves to the french based company just for cheaper prices, I am out.

lmao, cut the French some slack, they gave you a big statue

I have no beef with the french.  It is the practice of out sourcing manufacturing job overseas just to get cheap labor/cheaper product that I have an issue with.  Happens enough the way it is.  I just choose not to support the practice.

Has NY other SA sets been quoted since this one?  It could simply be a matter of SP bringing up prices in an attempt to balance supply/demand.  Has anyone even inquired to SP regarding the sudden price hike?
OG Kishsaver, Razer Orbweaver clears and reds with blue LEDs, and Razer Naga Epic.   "Great minds crawl in the same sewer"  Uncle Rich
Order Form for MDC Mouse Pad
Contact Form for questions

IBM F Revival Services Now with VIDEO

Offline Ail

  • Posts: 84
  • Location: Mysidia
  • RIP in Pape
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #682 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 16:10:55 »
If this moves to the french based company just for cheaper prices, I am out.

lmao, cut the French some slack, they gave you a big statue

I have no beef with the french.  It is the practice of out sourcing manufacturing job overseas just to get cheap labor/cheaper product that I have an issue with.  Happens enough the way it is.  I just choose not to support the practice.

Has NY other SA sets been quoted since this one?  It could simply be a matter of SP bringing up prices in an attempt to balance supply/demand.  Has anyone even inquired to SP regarding the sudden price hike?

You assume the French company could not provide an equally well made product and that they do not pay their laborers an acceptable wage. I understand only wanting to buy from an American company in support of American made products, but it's not like getting SA profile sets made in France would be done so that GH could then get them cheaper and hike their prices during a group buy for their own profit. It would be done so the community as a whole was not being subjected to the stranglehold SP currently has over the market and getting the same product at a better, more reasonable price. If you support capitalism and the American economy then surely you support healthy competition and loathe a monopoly?

Offline Melvang

  • Exquisite Lord of Bumfluff
  • * Maker
  • Posts: 4388
  • Location: Waterloo, IA
  • Melvang's Desktop Customs
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #683 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 16:50:21 »
If this moves to the french based company just for cheaper prices, I am out.

lmao, cut the French some slack, they gave you a big statue

I have no beef with the french.  It is the practice of out sourcing manufacturing job overseas just to get cheap labor/cheaper product that I have an issue with.  Happens enough the way it is.  I just choose not to support the practice.

Has NY other SA sets been quoted since this one?  It could simply be a matter of SP bringing up prices in an attempt to balance supply/demand.  Has anyone even inquired to SP regarding the sudden price hike?

You assume the French company could not provide an equally well made product and that they do not pay their laborers an acceptable wage. I understand only wanting to buy from an American company in support of American made products, but it's not like getting SA profile sets made in France would be done so that GH could then get them cheaper and hike their prices during a group buy for their own profit. It would be done so the community as a whole was not being subjected to the stranglehold SP currently has over the market and getting the same product at a better, more reasonable price. If you support capitalism and the American economy then surely you support healthy competition and loathe a monopoly?

Did I ever once mention anything regarding the quality of products made in France, no.  I simply stated I don't agree with outsourcing production to another country or business in another country for the sake of cheaper cost of production.  My comment if "cheaper product" was not any jab at quality, simply total cost of production.  What I am getting at is we DO NOT KNOW  why SP has raised their prices. 

OG Kishsaver, Razer Orbweaver clears and reds with blue LEDs, and Razer Naga Epic.   "Great minds crawl in the same sewer"  Uncle Rich
Order Form for MDC Mouse Pad
Contact Form for questions

IBM F Revival Services Now with VIDEO

Offline bocahgundul

  • a seal
  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 1842
  • Location: sell me your 5k ples
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #684 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 17:13:42 »
Show Image

Don't worry fam cherry cap is the best

Offline Melvang

  • Exquisite Lord of Bumfluff
  • * Maker
  • Posts: 4388
  • Location: Waterloo, IA
  • Melvang's Desktop Customs
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #685 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 17:34:27 »
So, you guys are mad because we didn't get a good guy discount.  That's like buying a number of cars for all the grand kids from one sales person over the years.  During a break between cars, the dealership comes over new management and you don't get the good guy discount now.  But this large shuttle service business does.

Even if SP did raise the rates out of corporate greed, at least they kept production here and not outsourcing.  It isn't like they are the only injection molding company in the US.
OG Kishsaver, Razer Orbweaver clears and reds with blue LEDs, and Razer Naga Epic.   "Great minds crawl in the same sewer"  Uncle Rich
Order Form for MDC Mouse Pad
Contact Form for questions

IBM F Revival Services Now with VIDEO

Offline CPTBadAss

  • Woke up like this
  • Posts: 14305
  • Rich Homie Huang.
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #686 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 17:38:21 »
There's a French based supplier for keycaps?

Offline LXXXIX

  • Posts: 617
  • Location: Florida
  • Just remember all caps when you spell the man name
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #687 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 18:49:55 »
68 guests WTF.

Guys just join the discussion. What are you afraid of? :P

Offline braidn

  • Posts: 187
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #688 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 19:21:16 »
Joined! What are we talking about? Outsourcing? Yeah let's do that...

In all seriousness I would pay the premium if we had these made. And I would pay the same premium if it was all Row3 French made. I also feel like this entire head showcases that SP has a strong grip on the community which I would love to break somehow.

Offline swimmingbird

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 2119
  • Location: Sydney, Australia
  • keyset hoarder
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #689 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 19:50:11 »
Just been reading through the last few pages of the thread - sucks how its taken a turn for the worse

I think someone really senior like hashbaz, nubbs or jd should personally call them and discuss the pricing with them - GH has provided them with more volume and revenue over the past few years than Massdrop has.

Just because the orders coming from Geekhack are coming from individuals and not some up and coming angel investment in no way means that we shouldn't get the same pricing as them

Offline zslane

  • Posts: 2270
  • Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #690 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 19:58:26 »
Competition is good for everyone, as long as it is fair competition. If someone other than SP can deliver a product of equal (or better) quality at a lower price, then they deserve the business. It could force SP to adjust their prices. Or it could force SP to lay off staff in order to remain cost competitive with a foreign company that woefully underpays its workforce. For some buyers, such circumstances matter. For others it only comes down to getting the lowest price no matter how that is achieved.

In general I think we need more than one source of spherical keycaps. But I am not fond of seeing the business race off to some off-shore manufacturer who is going to treat its workers like slaves. On the other hand, if there is a French company out there that can deliver high-quality spherical keycaps in the range of colors SP offers, and accepts custom legend orders, and can deliver in the same or faster time-frame, then I would certainly support them with my business. But that's an awful lot of ifs...

Offline swimmingbird

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 2119
  • Location: Sydney, Australia
  • keyset hoarder
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #691 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 20:07:50 »
Competition is good for everyone, as long as it is fair competition. If someone other than SP can deliver a product of equal (or better) quality at a lower price, then they deserve the business. It could force SP to adjust their prices. Or it could force SP to lay off staff in order to remain cost competitive with a foreign company that woefully underpays its workforce. For some buyers, such circumstances matter. For others it only comes down to getting the lowest price no matter how that is achieved.

In general I think we need more than one source of spherical keycaps. But I am not fond of seeing the business race off to some off-shore manufacturer who is going to treat its workers like slaves. On the other hand, if there is a French company out there that can deliver high-quality spherical keycaps in the range of colors SP offers, and accepts custom legend orders, and can deliver in the same or faster time-frame, then I would certainly support them with my business. But that's an awful lot of ifs...

yeah good luck with that

maybe if you send a $50k to JTK you might get going with the shape of SA

Then you can pay a few hundred dollars for each legend to be remade one by one

Offline LXXXIX

  • Posts: 617
  • Location: Florida
  • Just remember all caps when you spell the man name
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #692 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 20:13:28 »
Bro was making caps for this.

Maybe he can talk with Bunny and possibly set this up through JTK?

Offline zslane

  • Posts: 2270
  • Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #693 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 20:26:34 »
Just because the orders coming from Geekhack are coming from individuals and not some up and coming angel investment in no way means that we shouldn't get the same pricing as them

Sounds like you want SP to grant GeekHack a lifetime achievement award in the form of perpetual discounts equal to those which it negotiates with MassDrop. Good luck with that.

Offline jdcarpe

  • * Curator
  • Posts: 8854
  • Location: Odessa, TX
  • Live long, and prosper.
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #694 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 20:29:56 »
Just because the orders coming from Geekhack are coming from individuals and not some up and coming angel investment in no way means that we shouldn't get the same pricing as them

Sounds like you want SP to grant GeekHack a lifetime achievement award in the form of perpetual discounts equal to those which it negotiates with MassDrop. Good luck with that.
Why does every post from you sound like you have a chip on your shoulder?
KMAC :: LZ-GH :: WASD CODE :: WASD v2 :: GH60 :: Alps64 :: JD45 :: IBM Model M :: IBM 4704 "Pingmaster"

http://jd40.info :: http://jd45.info


in memoriam

"When I was a kid, I used to take things apart and never put them back together."

Offline Sifo

  • Alter
  • * Exquisite Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 7324
  • Location: #GOLDSPRINGS, #LEGITBALLIN
  • I love Elzy
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #695 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 20:31:41 »
If someone was able to negotiate with them that'd be cool, however they've already shown that they're not going to budge for me.
(Forever) Illustrious.

Offline nathanrosspowell

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 1556
  • Location: Montreal, QC
    • nathanrosspowell.com
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #696 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 20:33:31 »
Just because the orders coming from Geekhack are coming from individuals and not some up and coming angel investment in no way means that we shouldn't get the same pricing as them

Sounds like you want SP to grant GeekHack a lifetime achievement award in the form of perpetual discounts equal to those which it negotiates with MassDrop. Good luck with that.

Sounds like you you step away from the keyboard for a bit.

Offline Floody

  • Formerly Flood
  • Posts: 772
  • Location: The clarity of Cal to break your heart
  • But is it?
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #697 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 20:38:48 »
Just because the orders coming from Geekhack are coming from individuals and not some up and coming angel investment in no way means that we shouldn't get the same pricing as them

Sounds like you want SP to grant GeekHack a lifetime achievement award in the form of perpetual discounts equal to those which it negotiates with MassDrop. Good luck with that.
Who hurt you?

Offline UsualSuspectXXX

  • Posts: 3461
  • Location: Persephone
  • (⌐■_■)⊃━☆゚.*・。゚
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #698 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 20:41:09 »
Just because the orders coming from Geekhack are coming from individuals and not some up and coming angel investment in no way means that we shouldn't get the same pricing as them

Sounds like you want SP to grant GeekHack a lifetime achievement award in the form of perpetual discounts equal to those which it negotiates with MassDrop. Good luck with that.

Bro...

If someone was able to negotiate with them that'd be cool, however they've already shown that they're not going to budge for me.


Have you contacted Massdrop to see if they could run the GB?

Offline bocahgundul

  • a seal
  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 1842
  • Location: sell me your 5k ples
Re: [IC] Flatline Black and Cyan SA profile keyset (on hold see OP)
« Reply #699 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 20:51:31 »
Just because the orders coming from Geekhack are coming from individuals and not some up and coming angel investment in no way means that we shouldn't get the same pricing as them

Sounds like you want SP to grant GeekHack a lifetime achievement award in the form of perpetual discounts equal to those which it negotiates with MassDrop. Good luck with that.
Bro... Whats wrong?