Are Brown switches overrated?

[taugrim]

Last year I purchased my first mechanical keyboard, the CM Storm QuickFire Rapid, with Red switches for both gaming and typing, but with an emphasis on gaming performance.

Even though I loved my keyboard, I started questioning whether I'd bought the right color switches after reading blog articles and forum threads that said that Brown is superior to Red for gaming, and that the tactile bump of the Browns provides meaningful feedback.

So I purchased a CM Storm keyboard with Brown switches and tested both keyboards over several days, with and without different color O-rings.

I found that the placement of the tactile bump of the Brown switches to be too early in the keypress and too subtle to inform my keypresses - in most cases as soon as I felt like I'd started pressing a key, I'd already passed the tactile bump. This isn't a flaw necessarily in the tactile bump itself, but rather the fact that the switch registers a keystroke very early in the keypress, and the tactile bump is just before that.

I explain this in an article I posted, along with photos:
http://taugrim.com/2015/01/03/red-vs-brown-cherry-mx-switches-red-vs-blue-o-rings/

I'm curious to hear what those of you who have used both switch colors (and others) think about Brown switches I understand per the stickied FAQ that there is no "right" answer here. I was just disappointed by the feel of the Brown switches, after reading so much hype about them.

[nubbinator]

Browns are the starting point for most people.  Personally, I feel Browns and Reds are the worst switches there are.  Broken in older Browns can be nice, but the new ones just feel gritty and nasty to me.

[taugrim]

Personally, I feel Browns and Reds are the worst switches there are.

What are the downsides for each in your opinion?

Do you mind sharing which color(s) you prefer and why?

[Joey Quinn]

The first switch I tried was clears but I've owned boards with both red and brown switches. To me reds are far too light and browns feel like a switch where only part of the slider is lubed. I really like clears and ergo clears so I think my issue with browns is the size of the bump on the stem. As far as reds go it's just the weight that bothers me because I really like blacks and linear grays.

[hwood34]

Dear god no. There certainly one of the lesser liked MX switches, so they're rated about where they should be typically

[user 18]

Personally, after trying all the major Cherry switches except MX White (red, blue, brown, black, green, clear), I don't find browns terribly disappointing, but I would much rather use blues, greens or clears. I do feel that the tactile action of brown switches can provide useful feedback, although the small bump reduces the usefulness of this feedback in relation to MX clears for example. As someone who tends to float keys while gaming, I find the tactile bump to be very useful, as they give me a firm indicator of where I am in my stroke in relation to the actuation point.

In terms of distance to actuation and bottom out, all stock MX switches should have the same characteristics (2mm actuation, 4mm bottom out). With tactile switches, the tactile bump comes just before the actuation point -- once you pass the tactile bump, actuation occurs very quickly. MX browns have a tactile area between 1mm and 2mm depression, with actuation at 2mm depression.

I feel that the value of brown switches is as a starting point. They're a decent middle ground, which allows people to determine in what direction the would like to move for future boards (i.e. do you want a board that's more/less tactile, would you want audible feedback, would you want a heavier switch, etc). However many people are also happy with brown switches all on their own, and never feel the need to try and get something different.

[taugrim]

Dear god no. There certainly one of the lesser liked MX switches, so they're rated about where they should be typically

This GH forum seems to have very well-informed folks, so maybe that's the consensus around people who know.

It's just that for a noob who doesn't have experience with the switches, most links you find Google recommend Brown for gaming.

E.g. like this article:
http://www.furiouspaul.com/articles/cherry-mx-keyboard-switches.html

[demik]

they shouldn't even be rated. horrible switch.

actually all cherry sucks.

[hwood34]

Dear god no. There certainly one of the lesser liked MX switches, so they're rated about where they should be typically

This GH forum seems to have very well-informed folks, so maybe that's the consensus around people who know.

It's just that for a noob who doesn't have experience with the switches, most links you find Google recommend Brown for gaming.

E.g. like this article:
http://www.furiouspaul.com/articles/cherry-mx-keyboard-switches.html

"blacks: worthless"
"blues: decent"
"browns: ABSOLUTELY AMAZING"

what is he even talking about

[Defect]

Most people here seem to regard browns as the worst stock MX switch.

If anything they're underrated.  Not everyone wants something as tactile as clears.  Lubed browns aren't that bad.

[Data]

Browns are cool.  Switches are so subjective that Browns can be neither overrated nor underrated.  They are exactly what they are.  They'll be the absolute best possible switch for some people and the worst garbage imaginable for others.  Isn't it great that we have this level of variety?

[Zeal]

Browns are usually the first entry switch for MK buyers.

Koreans love their "vintage" browns though.

[nubbinator]

Browns are usually the first entry switch for MK buyers.

Koreans love their "vintage" browns though.

The broken in "vintage" ones are nice.  I had some but gave them away. The difference between them and new Browns was night and day though.  I hate Browns, broken in "vintage" ones are actually quite nice.

[Roibhilin]

90% of the people here hate browns

[Zeal]

90% of the people here hate browns

OBJECTION! 

(tell that to the lurkers)

[rowdy]

Clears might be more to your liking, although they do have stiffer springs.

[tbc]

Dear god no. There certainly one of the lesser liked MX switches, so they're rated about where they should be typically

a brown with orings is a clone of a $10 dell keyboard....

[sorijealut]

it's good to go by your personal scale of preference 

[oneproduct]

Browns are my favorite.

Depends how strong your fingers are though. A lot of people here like heavy switches, but a lot of them are also larger Americans.

I'm half chinese and I've got small fingers that prefer light switches.

[Lubed Up Slug]

There isn't any superior switch for gaming or typing or coding or whatever. What is best is down to what is best for you. Sure greens and other heavier switches will be tiring and maybe not best for prolonged use with gaming but it is up to you. If you like reds best then go ahead use them. You can see in this thread alone people are disagreeing about what they like best and that is fine. Don't commit to a switch before you have tried it, because you might be disappointed if all you do is read other people's opinions and then see what it is like for yourself. I think that a lot of the hype for browns comes from the idea that they are a hybrid between blues and reds and therefore good for both typing and gaming. I personally find browns to feel like dirty reds. They just are less refined in my opinion. I prefer reds for typing, but I don't really game that much so I can't give an opinion on that issue.

[crazystu]

My first mechanical has browns (WASD V1), and I recently took it out and tried it with some PBT keycaps (Cherry profile).
They feel way better than I remember, possibly because they are pretty well used and feel smooth. Having good keycaps definitely helps though!
I think they are fairly criticized, they get a lot of hate and love.

[jacobolus]

I think MX brown is a great choice for an internet café, school computer lab, public library, or guest bedroom: it has just a hint of tactile feedback at the actuation point so you know when the key has triggered, it’s not very stiff so basically no one is going to find it tiring to type on, it actuates about halfway through the stroke which is a full 4mm, it’s not too loud, and there’s no hysteresis, meaning that video-game players won’t complain about being excessively slowed down. Like all MX switches, it uses gold cross contacts, meaning that even if the plastic bump wears down to nothing, the switch should continue to work after tens of millions of presses. It’s no one’s favorite, but everyone can sorta live with it.

For more discerning typists, there’s a whole world out there beyond MX.

[azhdar]

I hate the feeling of them , it just feels like a gritty red switch ( or like some people said , a red switch with a turd stuck in it ) .

Also , since I keep contributing to /r/mk daily questions thread , a lot on newcomers seems to think that browns are "quiet blue" which is infuriating .

[chrisq]

I have keyboards with all major cherry switches (red, 2xblue, black, brown, 3xclear) and topre, but i still prefer reds, browns or blues for gaming.
They're not my favorites overall, which are clears or topre, but for gaming I think any other than those 3 are pretty bad.

[jacobolus]

gritty red [...] a lot on newcomers seems to think that browns are "quiet blue" which is infuriating.

I’d say all MX switches are either linear or could be called “gritty linear” or perhaps “linear with a little speed bump”. I think “quiet blue” is a pretty accurate description of MX brown. If you put noise-canceling headphones on over ear plugs, MX blue and brown feel fairly comparable.

From my perspective, all MX switches are kinda “meh”, though I tried nuclearsandwich’s 456GT with spring-swapped (62g) and lubed (maybe vintage?) MX black switches at a meetup a couple months ago, and I must admit that was a pretty nice typing experience.

[azhdar]

gritty red [...] a lot on newcomers seems to think that browns are "quiet blue" which is infuriating.

I’d say all MX switches are either linear or could be called “gritty linear” or perhaps “linear with a little speed bump”. I think “quiet blue” is a pretty accurate description of MX brown. If you put noise-canceling headphones on over ear plugs, MX blue and brown feel fairly comparable.

Even without the click they are completely different , blue being heavier and much more tactile .

[ConscienceDrop]

browns are great, but most people start with them to be "safe" and because of this more people leave the switch statistically speaking. they are also more vocal about the change of switches they made and this adds to the slander against browns

its okay to not like browns. just remember that browns loved you for who you are and they dont resent you for needing to spread your wings and try new switches. they were they for you when you didnt even know what a mech was

[jacobolus]

Even without the click they are completely different , blue being heavier and much more tactile .

Have you tried without sound? The sound changes the way it subjectively feels. MX blue is really not very tactile. I think “gritty red with a plasticky tick sound” is a pretty fair description.

[azhdar]

Even without the click they are completely different , blue being heavier and much more tactile .

Have you tried without sound? The sound changes the way it subjectively feels. MX blue is really not very tactile. I think “gritty red with a plasticky tick sound” is a pretty fair description.

I indeed never tried without sound , will try and report back .

[Polymer]

I think browns are enjoyed by quite a few..and disliked by quite a few...There isn't any favorite switch for anything...

I personally really enjoy browns..especially when they're worn in a bit, they feel great....IF you press them slowly, like you're doing a single key test..they feel terrible..but when typing/gaming on them they feel fine.  The one good thing they have over reds is they have a little bit more resistance to them but not nearly as taxing as blacks....They'll also feel more familiar to most people whereas linear can feel a bit alien unless you're used to them. 

I think for pure gaming I enjoy 62/67g red/blacks...but certainly brown isn't a bad way to go. 

Everyone is going to have a different opinion..you're just going to have to try it out for yourself. 

[derb2k2]

I honestly prefer the feel of "broken in" brown switches over red and blue. As was mentioned, it feels like there is some added resistance that helps with accuracy and makes the typing experience much better.

I think I'll stay away from Reds for gaming too. Browns feel much better when double-tapped quickly.

[lolkey]

This is like saying chocolate ice cream is overrated because you don't like it. Everyone has different tastes. Buy a switch tester and stop hating on what others like.

after reading blog articles and forum threads that said that Brown is superior to Red for gaming

That's news to me. Everything I've read is the complete opposite.

[Rayoui]

I've used just about every Cherry MX switch (haven't tried ergo clears yet). For my daily drivers, I started out with reds, then went to browns, then blues, then back to browns. The browns are my favorite for both typing and gaming. The "gritty" feeling is only noticeable when pressed extremely slowly; far slower than any normal person would press while typing. In my experimentation, I found the amount of tactile feedback to vary greatly depending on the keycaps used.

Switch preference is a really subjective thing. Everyone has their own opinion of each type, and nobody is right or wrong.

[Clearly Superior Username]

My only mechanical keyboard atm is a Poker II with cherry mx browns, and while I love it, I really want to try clears.

[dante]

Can't wait for Gateron's to become more widely available.  They sound like lubed MX switches.

[azhdar]

Even without the click they are completely different , blue being heavier and much more tactile .

Have you tried without sound? The sound changes the way it subjectively feels. MX blue is really not very tactile. I think “gritty red with a plasticky tick sound” is a pretty fair description.

Blue isn't indeed that tactile , the sound makes it all , now I'm confused . But I can still feel the weighting difference between blue and brown .

[davkol]

I most certainly have tried various switches with headphones blasting music, and browns still feel different from blues under specific circumstances.

If you smash them, they obviously feel the same... and there's one more specific usage that makes them similar. I spent several months typing on a Kinesis Advantage with browns and the buzzer turned on; MX Brown was designed for Kinesis Contoured BTW. It took me a while to get used to it, but then I pushed them rapidly and released them at actuation. Then they were quite similar to blues in actuality, only, umm, better.

[nubbinator]

Even without the click they are completely different , blue being heavier and much more tactile .

Have you tried without sound? The sound changes the way it subjectively feels. MX blue is really not very tactile. I think “gritty red with a plasticky tick sound” is a pretty fair description.

Blue isn't indeed that tactile , the sound makes it all , now I'm confused . But I can still feel the weighting difference between blue and brown .

They use the same spring.  It's doubtful that you feel a weighting difference, you're probably feeling the travel of the click mechanism, not a different weight.

[Doyniish]

Personally I like my board with browns. I don't like the feel and sound as much as blues, but now that they are broken in and have been used for a almost 2 years they feel nice and un-gritty.

[Bakgrund]

I like my qfr with browns, I also have a qfr with reds but I don't like it nearly as much . I've just had the qfr with browns for like a week though so it will be interesting to feel how they are when they are broken in. I think it's pretty subjective, alot of people might think they suck, but why the hell should you or I care? As long as  you like them you shouldn't care if someone else thinks they suck.

[taugrim]

I think MX brown is a great choice...it actuates about halfway through the stroke which is a full 4mm

<<<Deleted based on feedback from user 18>>>

And the actuation bump is just before the initial 2mm, so it's very early in the keypress.

You can see how little you need to depress a key (Brown switch shown) in order for it to actuate...



...relative to how far you can actually push keys before they bottom out...

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

browns suck

[frosty]

browns suck and vintage blacks for the win

in all seriousness, they are overrated too.

[smellz]

To me, browns feel like dirty reds, but to a person with smaller/weaker fingers, this wouldn't be the case.

Also , since I keep contributing to /r/mk daily questions thread , a lot on newcomers seems to think that browns are "quiet blue" which is infuriating .

I know the feeling. I think that the important difference between blues and browns/clears/ergo-clears is that blues feel "snappier" since the slider part of the switch "jumps" over the tactile bump. With browns/clears/ergo-clears, you have to keep pushing for the entire distance of the switch's travel, so they won't feel exactly like blues or greens. 

[user 18]

I think MX brown is a great choice...it actuates about halfway through the stroke which is a full 4mm

AFAIK that's not correct.

My understanding is that Cherry MX switches register a keystroke 2mm into the keypress regardless of color - i.e. 33% into the keypress not 50% - and then there is 4mm of additional keypress before bottoming out. (Note due to minor manufacturing differences the actual measurements may be slightly different).

And the actuation bump is just before the initial 2mm, so it's very early in the keypress.

You can see how little you need to depress a key (Brown switch shown) in order for it to actuate...

Show Image

...relative to how far you can actually push keys before they bottom out...

Show Image

You're incorrect. According to cherry specs, MX series switches have 0.08 inches (~2.03mm) of pretravel (before actuation), and 0.16 inches (~4.06mm) of total travel. Yes there may be small inconsistencies due to manufacturing, but the total travel is specced to never exceed the given number, although total travel may be slightly less than 4mm. If you have switches with 6mm total travel, as you describe, that's way out of spec.

What you may be experiencing is switches with an abnormally early (but still to spec) actuation point. Actuation may range from ~1.4mm to ~2.6mm according to specs, but anecdotally it tends to be closer to 2mm. If your switch actuates at 1.4mm, you may experience a 1/3 to 2/3 split as you describe.

Source: http://cherrycorp.com/product/mx-series/

In the dimensions section, there's a chart detailing pretravel and total travel distances. It's in inches, but it's not too hard to convert.

[taugrim]

You're incorrect. According to cherry specs, MX series switches have 0.08 inches (~2.03mm) of pretravel (before actuation), and 0.16 inches (~4.06mm) of total travel.

Source: http://cherrycorp.com/product/mx-series/

In the dimensions section, there's a chart detailing pretravel and total travel distances. It's in inches, but it's not too hard to convert.

OK thanks for the link and info.

It's strange though, I'm looking at my keyboard now, and watching when the keystroke is registered, and it doesn't look like it's halfway into the keypress.

[ShivaYash]

Browns are really great for typing. Although I prefer blues for home use now. Browns are great for office typing, should one have to share a room. How long does it take to break in Browns?

[noons]

Wasn't there a thread opened a few weeks ago with the exact same conversation?

Anyway...  For MX I have tried Green, Red, Blue, Brown, Clear, Black. Out of those I have actually owned Blue, Brown, and Red and to be honest unlike most of the people here Browns have been my favorite. I wouldn't say they are perfect for me, but I definitely like them more then any of the others. Red's just feel scratchy and not as smooth as they should (lube would probably help this), plus I tend to make a lot more mistakes even after months of dedicated usage. Blues I don't care for the noise and on top of that there is just some extra resistance that I don't particularly care for.

[davkol]

Wasn't there a thread opened a few weeks ago with the exact same conversation?

Welcome to 2015. It's not 1995 anymore, the Internet has changed.

[Dihedral]

As with many of you guys I have tried all the MX switches, at least on switch testers if not on keyboards and found browns underwhelming. If I had to list them in order of preference, it would go:

=1. Clear 
=1. Blue   
3. Black
4. Green
5. Brown
6. Red

Brown just feels like a half-hearted attempt at a tactile switch. I like the tactility of the Clears, but without something extra, like the click of a blue switch, Browns just aren't tactile enough. I tried a board with browns and o-rings and it was even worse - I could not feel the tactility at all.

On another note, clears with a blue 'jumping bean' for a click would be really interesting. Maybe MX Sky Blues?

[Puddsy]

are brown switches overrated?

very much so

[Geroximo]

Browns feel like broken scratchy reds to me.

[Dihedral]

Browns feel like broken scratchy reds to me.

I hear a lot about browns having to be used to be improved, but I'm not buying a brown board and using it on the basis that it might get better. Right now, I share your sentiment.

[taugrim]

Wasn't there a thread opened a few weeks ago with the exact same conversation?

Welcome to 2015. It's not 1995 anymore, the Internet has changed.

FWIW, in the search results for "browns overrated" or "browns hate", these links came up
2012 MX-brown, Impressions + Hate thread  https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=28697.0
2011 Sooo dissapoint https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=21397.0

I'm new here, so maybe noons was referring to another thread.

[davkol]

2 months ago (~8 weeks)
Why do people hate MX browns?
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=64990.0

[Hypersphere]

After trying keyboards with blue, green, brown, clear, red, and black switches along with IBM Model F, IBM Model M, IBM beam spring, Topre 45g and 55g, various Alps or Alps clones including Matias Click and Matias Quiet, NMB Space Invaders, and various vintage linear switches, my favorites are IBM Model F, Topre 55g, Topre 45g, and Matias (both Quiet and Click).

Cherry mx of any kind are my least favorite, and recently I sold all my Cherry mx boards. However, more recently, I bought two more Cherry mx boards, a Poker II and a WASD V2 87. I got both of them with mx brown switches.

Yes, if I press the keys slowly, browns feel like "dirty reds". However, when typing at speed, the grittiness disappears, yet I prefer typing on browns to typing on reds, because it seems there is a tactile bump that somehow registers subconsciously. Although I like a definite tactile bump and a click, I found the the click of blues and greens to be too high-pitched and plasticky, and greens were a bit too heavy. Clears were too heavy, especially because I like to bottom out on every key stroke. Likewise, blacks were a bit too heavy and lacked tactility. So, I compromised with browns as my Cherry mx switch when I want to type on a Cherry board (mostly to get some use out of some very nice keycap sets).

But when I want to do serious work, I mainly rotate among my IBM XT, RF 87ub 55g, HHKB Pro 2, KBP V60MTS-Q, or KBP V60MTS-C keyboards.

[taugrim]

2 months ago (~8 weeks)
Why do people hate MX browns?
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=64990.0

Thanks...reading that now.

[Mountain Man]

I've only ever owned blues and browns.  The blues felt nice but made quite a racket when I typed, so I bought some browns a few years ago -- a WASD v1 -- and have never regretted it.  I've sampled other switches but have never found a convincing reason to use anything else.  I understand what people mean when they describe browns as "gritty reds" because you do feel a bit of "grit" when you press the key slowly, but when used normally for typing or gaming, they feel smooth with just a hint of tactile feedback which I rather like.  Brown is all-around great switch as far as I'm concerned.

[Fragil1ty]

Last year I purchased my first mechanical keyboard, the CM Storm QuickFire Rapid, with Red switches for both gaming and typing, but with an emphasis on gaming performance.

Even though I loved my keyboard, I started questioning whether I'd bought the right color switches after reading blog articles and forum threads that said that Brown is superior to Red for gaming, and that the tactile bump of the Browns provides meaningful feedback.

So I purchased a CM Storm keyboard with Brown switches and tested both keyboards over several days, with and without different color O-rings.

I found that the placement of the tactile bump of the Brown switches to be too early in the keypress and too subtle to inform my keypresses - in most cases as soon as I felt like I'd started pressing a key, I'd already passed the tactile bump. This isn't a flaw necessarily in the tactile bump itself, but rather the fact that the switch registers a keystroke very early in the keypress, and the tactile bump is just before that.

I explain this in an article I posted, along with photos:
http://taugrim.com/2015/01/03/red-vs-brown-cherry-mx-switches-red-vs-blue-o-rings/

I'm curious to hear what those of you who have used both switch colors (and others) think about Brown switches I understand per the stickied FAQ that there is no "right" answer here. I was just disappointed by the feel of the Brown switches, after reading so much hype about them.

I think reds and browns are the go to switches for most new users to be honest, I think that Browns are good'ish if you want a bit in-between. I don't like them myself, I don't really consider them to be overhyped because at the end of the day, it's all down to personal preference isn't it, so when you're asking for other peoples opinions on a key switch or the best key switch out there, it's always going to be an opinion, there is no fact on the matter.


I think they are a good starting switch, but it's always best to go out there and maybe buy a switch tester first before you make the plunge into making the purchase.

[Firebolt1914]

it's good to go by your personal scale of preference 

Totally agree with this; I personally am wishing to go to other switch types such as capacitive buckling springs, but I don't mind browns, but I absolutely hate blues and greens.

[Polymer]

Yes, if I press the keys slowly, browns feel like "dirty reds". However, when typing at speed, the grittiness disappears, yet I prefer typing on browns to typing on reds, because it seems there is a tactile bump that somehow registers subconsciously.

Yeap...When people describe them as dirty reds and gritty I always think, is that because they're pressing them slowly?  When you're normally typing with them, for one, they require more resistance then reds..significantly more...and secondly, the tactility on them starts making sense and feels fine...

Not that it matters but worn in browns feel less gritty when you press them slowly...

[nubbinator]

New Browns feel crunchy and nasty to type on.  It's like rubbing a fingernail along 800-1200 grit sandpaper.  It's not smooth, but it's also not super gritty.  It's all around unpleasant.

"Vintage" or worn in Browns can actually feel decent to nice.

[Roibhilin]

what is the treshhold for "worn in" browns or is it a placebo like vintage blacks? some of them definitely feel really crunchy and worse than others but the browns on my ~8 month old poker feel great

[nubbinator]

I don't think there's a threshold. It's when they're good and worn in.  I've had Browns from a "vintage" heavily used board and they actually felt nice.  I think it's due to break in not some mystical vintage quality though.  I say the same about Blacks.

[jacobolus]

what is the treshhold for "worn in" browns or is it a placebo like vintage blacks?

Brand new MX switches from ~1990 (black, brown, blue, clear, etc.) are noticeably different than brand new switches you can buy today. If you get your hands on some of each, you can easily verify this for yourself. I haven’t tried very old MX clear switches, but “vintage” blue switches are a bit less clicky, and “vintage” brown and black switches are very noticeably less scratchy, even brand new. This apparently has to do with the insides of switch housings being smoother on 25 year old switches than current switches, but I don’t think anyone has definitively established whether the plastic formula changed, or the steel tooling changed / wore out, or some detail of the injection molding process changed, or the factory-applied lubricant changed in material or application.

Heavily used switches, regardless of the type or batch, also start changing in feel, compared to brand new switches.

Neither the differences between “vintage” and “modern” switches, nor the differences between new and heavily used switches are “placebos”. You can hold a pair of loose switches up to your ear and press them side by side with obviously different results.

I’m not sure if there’s any good list of all the various switch generations of each type, with a precise description of the differences from generation to generation. In the case of MX blue, there seem to have been a few different plastic colors used in different generations of switches, and with all of the switches the housings seem to have gone through a few generations of molds with slightly different logos printed, etc. Few people have enough examples from many different batches of close-to-new MX switches to really properly set up a comparison across the full gamut, and as a community we don’t really have a good empirical standard or objective measurement equipment for things like “smoothness”, so most of what we can learn is via direct subjective comparison of one switch against another.

[nubbinator]

Neither the differences between “vintage” and “modern” switches, nor the differences between new and heavily used switches are “placebos”. You can hold a pair of loose switches up to your ear and press them side by side with obviously different results.

Until there is quantifiable data to support this claim, I still adhere to the placebo effect or a switch just being worn in.

[jacobolus]

I have no idea what nubbinator’s frequently repeated opinions on “vintage” MX black switches are based on.

Nubbinator: if you want I’ll mail you a couple of almost brand new “vintage” MX black switches (from a keyboard with ABS caps with absolutely perfect texture left on them, so it can’t have been used for more than a few days of typing tops) and a couple of almost brand new MX red switches, with one pair spring swapped so you can directly compare the “vintage” vs “modern” switch housings/sliders with both stiff and light springs.

Alternately, do you have a suggested way to quantify “smoothness”? We could try to do it via analysis of a sound recording of the switches in action, but that’s not all that workable for comparisons across switch types, since differently shaped switch housings transmit sound differently.

[nubbinator]

I've had multiple "good" "new" vintage Blacks, new old Blacks, new new Blacks, old "vintage" Blacks, old old Blacks, and broken in new Blacks.  I've tried three of the four permutations of Blacks that I know.  The difference in feel is well within the margin of error as there are good new Blacks and good "vintage" Blacks as well as bad ones of them.  I have never noticed a significant difference, not one that justifies the hype.  Others feel the same way.

Given that there is a decent portion of the population who notices no difference and that there is no quantifiable data to back the claims that there is a difference, I continue to voice my doubt.  Now if were to run some tests on old and new to determine the composite makeup of the material and if someone were to take an n of at least 30 new and "vintage" switches, new and old, and run the same test at least 30 times per switch and show with those tests that there was a difference, I would accept it as fact.  To date, no one has any kind of proof that there is a difference, just some very vocal people convincing others that there is a huge difference.

The only switch I have noticed a significant different in between new and "vintage" is Browns.  That, of course, could be due to the "vintage" Browns being worn in.

There's enough snake oil in keyboards that I just like a little evidence to back claims up instead of just accepting things as fact.

[jacobolus]

I've had multiple "good" "new" vintage Blacks, new old Blacks, new new Blacks, old "vintage" Blacks, old old Blacks, and broken in new Blacks.  I've tried three of the four permutations of Blacks that I know.  The difference in feel is well within the margin of error as there are good new Blacks and good "vintage" Blacks as well as bad ones of them.  I have never noticed a significant difference, not one that justifies the hype.

Okay, well I feel like there’s a night and day difference between these particular two batches of switches. What does “margin of error” mean in this context? If you handed me a pair of switches from the batches I’ve tried, I could pick out which one was which easily, every time.

So is your claim something like: Cherry MX has always had a huge variance in switch smoothness, with some being extremely smooth, and others feeling like sandpaper?

I guess that’s plausible. I’ve only tried a few batches of switches, and maybe it was sheer luck that the 3 circa 1990 switches were all quite smooth and the >2010 switches were all sandpapery.

[tbc]

(from a keyboard with ABS caps with absolutely perfect texture left on them, so it can’t have been used for more than a few days of typing tops

do you mean YOU used them for less than a few days?

cause it takes me like 2 months of full time work before i can tell.

the only keycaps that get worn by me in a few days are macbook pro keys.

[nubbinator]

Okay, well I feel like there’s a night and day difference between these particular two batches of switches. What does “margin of error” mean in this context? If you handed me a pair of switches from the batches I’ve tried, I could pick out which one was which easily, every time.

I've tried it blind.  I find that when I do it blind with equal number of switches, I find less than a 20% variance in the number of each that I find "buttery smooth" as "vintage" Blacks are often described.  It's probably closer to 10%.  Given that I don't have a massive sample size to test with, it really isn't statistically significant.  And when I've sorted by the worst feeling switches, the margin is closer to 10% or less.

So is your claim something like: Cherry MX has always had a huge variance in switch smoothness, with some being extremely smooth, and others feeling like sandpaper?

That's a possibility.  There are batch differences.  The mold life span could account for some being better or worse.  Perhaps one batch is made with an old mold that's pitted, one with a new smooth mold, and one with an old smooth mold.  It's possible that the variances in the mold could account for variances in switches.

It's also possible that older lubes had a higher amount of petrochemicals in them that evaporated on some boards and not others, so you have some switches that have a different lube formulation than modern day lube that feels smooth and others that weren't well kept that degraded.

It's possible that people want there to be a difference, so they perceive there to be a difference.

There's a vast number of potential factors present in why some perceive them differently than others.  I'm one of those people who likes data to back up claims and try to preface unsubstantiated opinions with the fact that it is my opinion and that others may disagree.

I guess that’s plausible. I’ve only tried a few batches of switches, and maybe it was sheer luck that the 3 circa 1990 switches were all quite smooth and the >2010 switches were all sandpapery.

I know demand increased recently, so the QC could have diminished or the ones you tried were from bad batches that retired molds were brought back to life in order to meet demand.  It's not unheard of for things like that to happen and for batches to cluster.  It's just that in my experience, I haven't seen enough of a difference to be able to say that it is significant.  And in my own testing, it really does feel little better than random chance.

[jacobolus]

(from a keyboard with ABS caps with absolutely perfect texture left on them, so it can’t have been used for more than a few days of typing tops

do you mean YOU used them for less than a few days? cause it takes me like 2 months of full time work before i can tell.

Well, who knows, maybe they were used for a month by someone with very clean hands then. In any event, the scratchy “modern” switches, used enough to wear the writing clean off pad printed caps, still feel scratchier than these “vintage” switches which were not used enough to have any noticeable effect on Cherry doubleshot caps, and which are basically perfectly consistent across all the switches on the keyboard (typically you’d expect some switches to “wear in” faster, if wear was really the deciding factor here.

Maybe the switches actually started scratchy but then someone wearing rubber gloves carefully pressed every key 1 million times. I guess I can’t rule that out. Seems implausible though.

[jacobolus]

I've tried it blind.  I find that when I do it blind with equal number of switches, I find less than a 20% variance in the number of each that I find "buttery smooth" as "vintage" Blacks are often described.  It's probably closer to 10%.  Given that I don't have a massive sample size to test with, it really isn't statistically significant.  And when I've sorted by the worst feeling switches, the margin is closer to 10% or less.

How many of the sets of switches you’ve tried were in extremely good condition? Poor storage conditions (especially dust/grit getting into the switch internals) makes a huge difference to keyswitches. I’m sure it’s possible to find old switches which were stored improperly and now feel super scratchy.

What I’m more curious about is whether anyone has found an extremely smooth batch of recent switches? I’ve never heard someone claim they have.

Here’s a subjective scale:
2 = worst old Alps switch I ever tried, totally filled with dirt to the point it almost stopped working
4 = scratchy almost new MX red switch from ~2012
7.5 = NIB white space invader switch
7.5 = NIB green Alps from ~1987
8.5 = lubed (krytox?) spring-swapped MX black switch in nuclearsandwich’s 456GT
9.5 = sliding a block of dry ice across a teflon surface

On that scale, the nearly new vintage MX black switches I’ve tried are in the ~6.5 range.

[Hypersphere]

Now I want a keyboard with dry ice/teflon switches!

[Roibhilin]

Now I want a keyboard with dry ice/teflon switches!

-spray the entire switch housing with teflon
-mold replacable dry ice sliders
done

[Oobly]

I've tried it blind.  I find that when I do it blind with equal number of switches, I find less than a 20% variance in the number of each that I find "buttery smooth" as "vintage" Blacks are often described.  It's probably closer to 10%.  Given that I don't have a massive sample size to test with, it really isn't statistically significant.  And when I've sorted by the worst feeling switches, the margin is closer to 10% or less.

How many of the sets of switches you’ve tried were in extremely good condition? Poor storage conditions (especially dust/grit getting into the switch internals) makes a huge difference to keyswitches. I’m sure it’s possible to find old switches which were stored improperly and now feel super scratchy.

What I’m more curious about is whether anyone has found an extremely smooth batch of recent switches? I’ve never heard someone claim they have.

Here’s a subjective scale:
2 = worst old Alps switch I ever tried, totally filled with dirt to the point it almost stopped working
4 = scratchy almost new MX red switch from ~2012
7.5 = NIB white space invader switch
7.5 = NIB green Alps from ~1987
8.5 = lubed (krytox?) spring-swapped MX black switch in nuclearsandwich’s 456GT
9.5 = sliding a block of dry ice across a teflon surface

On that scale, the nearly new vintage MX black switches I’ve tried are in the ~6.5 range.

ALL my new MX switches are scratchy. Every single one. Browns, Clears and Blacks. I'd guess around 3.5 on your scale, although it's definitely more noticable on the tactile switches. Something to do with the extra side force of the leaf spring due to the tactile bump would be my guess. Shaving the mold lines seems to make a big difference, though, bringing them up to perhaps 4.5 or 5. Just using them to try and wear them in really takes a long time and a lot of use, but would eventually get them to the same point as the vintage switches I reckon. If you then lube them... very nice.

Cherry either need to make new molds for their MX switches or allow more cooling time between molding. Whatever the cause, the stems and casings are not as precise as they should be and certainly not as precise as I would expect a good (and relatively expensive) German product to be.

I can't imagine anyone trying an MX switch tester with new MX switches and liking any of them particularly much. I also happen to think MX spring choices are poor. They should replace all their springs with 62g and sell just one variant of each of their types: Blues, Clears and Blacks.

[jacobolus]

ALL my new MX switches are scratchy. Every single one. Browns, Clears and Blacks. I'd guess around 3.5 on your scale, although it's definitely more noticable on the tactile switches. [...] Just using them to try and wear them in really takes a long time and a lot of use, but would eventually get them to the same point as the vintage switches I reckon.

That’s something that would be interesting to test with some kind of automated keypresser. Try 3 million keypresses and see if the new MX black switches feel as nice as the old ones.

I also happen to think MX spring choices are poor. They should replace all their springs with 62g and sell just one variant of each of their types: Blues, Clears and Blacks.

Agreed. The Korean 62–67g springs make for better switches than the original springs for most typists. I wonder to what extent it’s possible for hobbyists to alter individual MX sliders or machine new ones as prototypes. I think if as a community folks came up with some nice 1–3 switch tweaks, it might be possible to convince Kaihua to match it in a production version. Kaihua seems interested overall in trying to be recognized as (at least a tiny bit) intentionally designed, not purely cheaper clones.

[ynrozturk]

No switch is inferior or superior to another switch, it's all just personal preference. I wish more people would just accept that. I personally really dislike reds but that doesn't make it a bad switch, and my favorites are browns, and that doesn't make them better than any other switch.

I can see what people are saying when they say that they feel scratchy out of the box, but put a little time into them and they end up feeling quite great, like the browns on my Poker II. Just enough tactility, no obnoxious clicking noises, and still light enough to work my way around the keyboard very quickly.

It's all personal preference, and I think one needs to spend at least a month with a particular switch to have a solid opinion on them. Some switches just grow on you.

[davkol]

No switch is inferior or superior to another switch, it's all just personal preference.

Nah. It just depends how you define the criteria. And we're all (probably) Homo sapiens sapiens, i.e. more or less the same. Plus more or less the same (cultural) biases.

[jacobolus]

No switch is inferior or superior to another switch, it's all just personal preference.

That’s total nonsense. There are all sorts of criteria by which we can judge switches, and for many we can find broad agreement. For example, all else equal, I doubt anyone prefers a switch which binds when pressed off-axis (the way Cherry ML does), sticks at the bottom of the stroke without returning (the way an unlubed spring-swapped MX clear switch often does), registers double keypresses (this is typically some combination of chattery switches + bad firmware), fails to actuate at all every other keypress (like the enter key on my garage door keypad),  actuates before the tactile/click point (like NEC and Omron switches), breaks easily (like Aristotle MX clones, reportedly), wobbles (like simplified Alps switches and many Alps clones), feels like sandpaper as it goes down (like the MX switches we’re all complaining about here), has a very uneven bumpy force curve (like black Alps switches circa 1995).

Then there are other switch attributes which get to the style/character of the switch. We can often judge switches by how nearly they approach certain ideals for a particular switch type (but this is a bit iffier than above, because there isn’t total consensus about what feeling is desirable within those categories). For example, if a switch aims to have a crisp tactile click, we can judge how crisp and how dramatic that click is; if a switch aims to be silent, we can judge it for any noise it makes. But someone might prefer a switch that is clicky but with a slightly rounded feeling to the click, or a very quiet switch that nonetheless makes a bit of noise, so this isn’t as clear cut. Other details are more subjective still.

[noons]

No switch is inferior or superior to another switch, it's all just personal preference.

That�s total nonsense. There are all sorts of criteria by which we can judge switches, and for many we can find broad agreement. For example, all else equal, I doubt anyone prefers a switch which binds when pressed off-axis (the way Cherry ML does), sticks at the bottom of the stroke without returning (the way an unlubed spring-swapped MX clear switch often does), registers double keypresses (this is typically some combination of chattery switches + bad firmware), fails to actuate at all every other keypress (like the enter key on my garage door keypad),  actuates before the tactile/click point (like NEC and Omron switches), breaks easily (like Aristotle MX clones, reportedly), wobbles (like simplified Alps switches and many Alps clones), feels like sandpaper as it goes down (like the MX switches we�re all complaining about here), has a very uneven bumpy force curve (like black Alps switches circa 1995).

Then there are other switch attributes which get to the style/character of the switch. We can often judge switches by how nearly they approach certain ideals for a particular switch type (but this is a bit iffier than above, because there isn�t total consensus about what feeling is desirable within those categories). For example, if a switch aims to have a crisp tactile click, we can judge how crisp and how dramatic that click is; if a switch aims to be silent, we can judge it for any noise it makes. But someone might prefer a switch that is clicky but with a slightly rounded feeling to the click, or a very quiet switch that nonetheless makes a bit of noise, so this isn�t as clear cut. Other details are more subjective still.

This post is ridiculous... I like a light switch with just a tad of tactile feedback == cherry browns. I hate the sound of cheap plastic switches == cherry blues, but I don't go around saying blues are inferior.

[jacobolus]

This post is ridiculous...

Which part do you find ridiculous?

I don't go around saying blues are inferior.

Perhaps you’re talking about a different post? My post you quoted doesn’t say anything even remotely similar to that.

(Though it is my personal belief that Cherry MX switches in general are pretty mediocre compared to various other types of switches.)

[Rayoui]

I have no problem with MX switches. I like some more than others, but in general, I find them to be very good. They are vastly better than your run-of-the-mill membrane keyboards. I see a lot of over-analyzing and hyperbole. I have never seen a Cherry MX switch that "feels like sandpaper."

[hwood34]

I have never seen a Cherry MX switch that "feels like sandpaper."

*cough cough* reds *cough cough*

[Polymer]

There's a big difference between preference and a universal acknowledgement that there is a problem with the switch.

Some of those, as in they don't actuate when you press them, can be considered a universal problem...I doubt anyone wants a switch that doesn't work when you press it or doesn't return to a position where you can press it again...

But others such as feel...completely subjective...Claiming there is some consensus on that is BS...

[jacobolus]

There's a big difference between preference and a universal acknowledgement that there is a problem with the switch. [...] Claiming there is some consensus on that is BS...

No one said there was universal consensus on anything.

I think you guys are misinterpreting what I wrote. Sorry if it was unclear. Let me repeat: “There are all sorts of criteria by which we can judge switches, and for many we can find broad agreement. For example, all else equal, I doubt anyone prefers [...]”

The key part is “all else equal”. That is, given a choice between two switches which are otherwise identical, most people are going to choose the one whose slider moves more smoothly vs. a scratchier switch, a switch which presses down easily when hit off axis from any direction without binding vs. one which must be pressed precisely straight down, a switch which actuates at or slightly beyond the tactile point vs. a switch which “prematurely” actuates, etc.

The examples of switches which demonstrate particular flaws are just that, examples. I certainly wouldn’t claim that there’s a consensus that any of those switches are in general bad/inferior. However, I do think there’s quite broad agreement about certain attributes of most switches which could be improved.

Of course, in the real world, such improvement would require retooling, more expensive materials, fancier design, etc.; what we’re left with is choosing among some particular set of available keyboards at particular price points, and the switches people here use on their keyboards are entirely reasonable choices.

Does that make more sense? I tried to state the argument carefully the first time, but I can see that it’s relatively easy to misread as saying something more extreme (“all these switches suck and here’s why!” or whatever) by someone skimming.

[Oobly]

Once they're worn in, Brown switches are quite okay. There's enough tactility to register that they've actuated, even though sometimes it's only subconcious while typing fast, it's still there and does the job. With properly heavy keycaps (like 2g SA doubleshots for instance) they can feel a bit weird.

With light caps on, they can feel quite effortless to type on, and I find the small amount of tactility they have to be just enough. I definitely prefer 62g ErgoClears, though, particularly with heavy caps on.

Overall, I'd say it depends where you get your information from. If you judge by how many boards are sold with Browns vs other switches, then perhaps they're overrated. If you judge from the opinions here on GH, I'd say they may even be somewhat underrated They're good as a reference switch for finding what you prefer, so I think it's fine that they're on so many boards. Ultimately they're a bit of a compromise between Reds and Clears, though.

ALL current MX switches are "scratchy" and it's most noticable on the tactile variants, but once they're worn in they feel MUCH better. Too many people base their opinions of Browns on a single experience with new (unworn) Browns.

[ynrozturk]

No switch is inferior or superior to another switch, it's all just personal preference.

That’s total nonsense. There are all sorts of criteria by which we can judge switches, and for many we can find broad agreement. For example, all else equal, I doubt anyone prefers a switch which binds when pressed off-axis (the way Cherry ML does), sticks at the bottom of the stroke without returning (the way an unlubed spring-swapped MX clear switch often does), registers double keypresses (this is typically some combination of chattery switches + bad firmware), fails to actuate at all every other keypress (like the enter key on my garage door keypad),  actuates before the tactile/click point (like NEC and Omron switches), breaks easily (like Aristotle MX clones, reportedly), wobbles (like simplified Alps switches and many Alps clones), feels like sandpaper as it goes down (like the MX switches we’re all complaining about here), has a very uneven bumpy force curve (like black Alps switches circa 1995).

Then there are other switch attributes which get to the style/character of the switch. We can often judge switches by how nearly they approach certain ideals for a particular switch type (but this is a bit iffier than above, because there isn’t total consensus about what feeling is desirable within those categories). For example, if a switch aims to have a crisp tactile click, we can judge how crisp and how dramatic that click is; if a switch aims to be silent, we can judge it for any noise it makes. But someone might prefer a switch that is clicky but with a slightly rounded feeling to the click, or a very quiet switch that nonetheless makes a bit of noise, so this isn’t as clear cut. Other details are more subjective still.

Sorry you had to type all that, but you're wrong. It's personal preference.

[jacobolus]

Sorry you had to type all that, but you're wrong. It's personal preference.

Let me spell out what you are claiming in concrete terms:

1. There are people who prefer a scratchy switch to an otherwise identical smoother switch
2. There are people who prefer a switch that sometimes fail to actuate or sometimes double-actuates to an otherwise identical switch that works consistently
3. There are people who prefer a switch that actuates slightly before the tactile point to an otherwise identical switch that actuates at or slightly after the tactile point
4. There are people who prefer a switch that binds when pressed slightly off center to an otherwise identical switch which does not
5. There are people who prefer a switch which sticks at the bottom to an otherwise identical switch which does not
etc.

I maintain that that’s nonsense. Please find me some of these crazy people. Maybe in Turkey everyone’s a masochist who likes cheap/slightly broken tools?

[Rayoui]

As I and many others have already said, I prefer Browns (which many here claim to be scratchy) to all the other switches I have tried. Malfunctioning switches aside, I agree with ynrozturk and maintain that the "best" switch is a matter of personal preference. It's confusing to me that some people are having such a hard time understanding that other people might have different switch preferences than their own.

[TopreFan333]

When people say "broken in", how much time and use are we talking here?

I've had a KUL ES-87 with browns for maybe 4 months now of moderate use -- and I don't *think* it feels any different? Really hard to tell with just my own subjective experience and no unused control keyboard to compare it to.

[jacobolus]

I prefer Browns to all the other switches I have tried.

No one is disputing your preference. It’s entirely reasonable, there’s nothing wrong with it.

the "best" switch is a matter of personal preference.

Every single person on this thread agrees with this statement. (Even though the Topre people will sometimes troll you by saying otherwise.)

It's confusing to me

Do you want me to try to explain again? I’m trying to be as clear as possible, but the point I’m making seems to be really difficult for some of you to understand.

[davkol]

As I and many others have already said, I prefer Browns (which many here claim to be scratchy) to all the other switches I have tried. Malfunctioning switches aside, I agree with ynrozturk and maintain that the "best" switch is a matter of personal preference. It's confusing to me that some people are having such a hard time understanding that other people might have different switch preferences than their own.

It's the same issue (leaving out common human factors) as with (1) subjectivists and (2) lack of comparison in audio. There are believers, and there's this "omg godly ath-m50 master race sooo good" crowd, that unfortunately hasn't used anything else worthy of comparison.

Saying that "it's all personal preference" is meaningless. It's also not true. For example, how many people actually like Cherry MY? That switch is actually good for certain purposes, but general desktop usage seemingly isn't one of them.

How many people, who like/recommend browns, have used other switches *in the same category*? Are we actually talking about that category, or the one particular switch? It's easy to understand, why a low-force non-clicky tactile switch is popular. But, aren't browns popular, or even overrated, because they're simply the most widespread switch of that sort? They're thrown around like ATH-M50s.

You claim to prefer browns. Have you used 45g Topre? Complicated tactile Alps or Matias Quiet switches? Logitech's new omrons? Tactile Mitsumi miniature switches? …? That's the point.

[ynrozturk]

Maybe in Turkey everyone’s a masochist who likes cheap/slightly broken tools?

Oh I get it now, you're one of those ****ing idiots.

Good day.

[ynrozturk]

You claim to prefer browns. Have you used 45g Topre? Complicated tactile Alps or Matias Quiet switches? Logitech's new omrons? Tactile Mitsumi miniature switches? …? That's the point.

Not directed at me but I'll bite on this one. I've tried just about every MX switch out there - blue, green, red, black, brown, clear, ergo clear, grey and vintage blacks. I've also tried 45g and 55g Topre. And tactile Alps. And Matias Quiet switches.

I prefer MX Brown, right after MX Clear. Those are my two favorite switches. Deal with it. No switch is better or worse than any other, and MX Browns aren't "broken" - if they were, I'm sure the guys at Cherry would have noticed by now and fixed the problem. They're exactly how they were meant to be, and how they were designed.

[noons]

You claim to prefer browns. Have you used 45g Topre? Complicated tactile Alps or Matias Quiet switches? Logitech's new omrons? Tactile Mitsumi miniature switches? �? That's the point.

I have tried and own 45g topre, but even though it is hard for you to believe I actually like topre equally to my mx browns. I type on my browns all day at work then go home to my topre boards. Would I say one is absolutely king, no not really... As far as the other switches, Matais boards remind me of 90's apple keyboards so that is a no go for me and the other switches are tough to find so I have no way of comparing those. I am perfectly happy with my browns so unless some other switch becomes more readily available that sounds like it fits my needs I am perfectly happy typing on browns all day.

[jacobolus]

Oh I get it now, you're one of those ****ing idiots.

There should have been a smiley face there. I was just teasing you because you are still totally missing my point, and I don’t know how to write it any more clearly. (The implication of the teasing sentence being that: well, where I’m from if I hand out two linear switches which are identical except for one being smoother, everyone I know will choose the smoother one, but maybe where you’re from people all choose randomly or prefer the scratchier one. More realistically, I suspect that everyone everywhere prefers the smoother one, and you’re just being stubborn and/or you don’t understand my argument.)

Anyhow, nevermind. It’s not worth getting worked up about. Give it a few days and come back and read more carefully, and I’m sure you can figure it out. I have faith in your powers of basic literacy ynrozturk.

[ynrozturk]

Oh I get it now, you're one of those ****ing idiots.

There should have been a smiley face there. I was just teasing you because you are still totally missing my point, and I don’t know how to write it any more clearly. (The implication of the teasing sentence being that: well, where I’m from if I hand out two linear switches which are identical except for one being smoother, everyone I know will choose the smoother one, but maybe where you’re from people all choose randomly or prefer the scratchier one. More realistically, I suspect that everyone everywhere prefers the smoother one, and you’re just being stubborn and/or you don’t understand my argument.)

Anyhow, nevermind. It’s not worth getting worked up about. Give it a few days and come back and read more carefully, and I’m sure you can figure it out. I have faith in your powers of basic literacy ynrozturk.

I have faith in yours too, so read this carefully - go **** yourself.

[jacobolus]

I guess that about wraps up this discussion. Thanks for playing everyone!

[jacobolus]

Before mods lock this topic, a final summary:

nubbinator: Broken in older Browns can be nice, but the new ones just feel gritty and nasty to me.

Joey Quinn: To me reds are far too light and browns feel like a switch where only part of the slider is lubed. [...] I think my issue with browns is the size of the bump on the stem.

user 18: I don't find browns terribly disappointing, but I would much rather use blues, greens or clears. [...] I feel that the value of brown switches is as a starting point. They're a decent middle ground, which allows people to determine in what direction the would like to move for future boards

demik: horrible switch. actually all cherry sucks.

Defect: Lubed browns aren't that bad.

Data: Browns are cool. [...] They'll be the absolute best possible switch for some people and the worst garbage imaginable for others.  Isn't it great that we have this level of variety?

Zeal: Koreans love their "vintage" browns though.

Roibhilin: 90% of the people here hate browns

tbc: a brown with orings is a clone of a $10 dell keyboard....

oneproduct: Browns are my favorite. [...] I'm half chinese and I've got small fingers that prefer light switches.

Lubed Up Slug: I personally find browns to feel like dirty reds. They just are less refined in my opinion.

crazystu: They feel way better than I remember, [...] I think they are fairly criticized,

jacobolus: It’s no one’s favorite, but everyone can sorta live with it. [...] From my perspective, all MX switches are kinda “meh”

azhdar: I hate the feeling of them, it just feels like a gritty red switch (or like some people said, a red switch with a turd stuck in it).

chrisq: [...] i still prefer reds, browns or blues for gaming. They're not my favorites overall [...]

ConscienceDrop: browns are great, [...] its okay to not like browns. just remember that browns loved you for who you are and they dont resent you [...]

Polymer: I personally really enjoy browns..especially when they're worn in a bit, they feel great...

derb2k2: I honestly prefer the feel of "broken in" brown switches over red and blue.

Rayoui: I've used just about every Cherry MX switch [...] The browns are my favorite for both typing and gaming.

Doyniish: Personally I like my board with browns. I don't like the feel and sound as much as blues, but now that they are broken in and have been used for a almost 2 years they feel nice and un-gritty.

Bakgrund: I like my qfr with browns,

Computer-Lab in Basement: browns suck

frosty: browns suck and vintage blacks for the win

smellz: To me, browns feel like dirty reds,

ShivaYash: Browns are really great for typing. Although I prefer blues for home use now. Browns are great for office typing, should one have to share a room.

noons: For MX I have tried Green, Red, Blue, Brown, Clear, Black. [...] Browns have been my favorite. I wouldn't say they are perfect for me, but I definitely like them more then any of the others. [...]  I actually like topre equally to my mx browns.

Dihedral: I [...] found browns underwhelming. [...] Brown just feels like a half-hearted attempt at a tactile switch.

Geroximo: Browns feel like broken scratchy reds to me.

Hypersphere:  I compromised with browns as my Cherry mx switch when I want to type on a Cherry board (mostly to get some use out of some very nice keycap sets).

Mountain Man: I've only ever owned blues and browns. [...] Brown is all-around great switch as far as I'm concerned.

Frag1ty:  I think that Browns are good'ish if you want a bit in-between. I don't like them myself, [...] I think they are a good starting switch,

Firebolt1914:  I don't mind browns, but I absolutely hate blues and greens.

ynrozturk: my favorites are browns,[...] Just enough tactility, no obnoxious clicking noises, and still light enough to work my way around the keyboard very quickly.  [...]  I've tried just about every MX switch out there [...] I've also tried 45g and 55g Topre. And tactile Alps. And Matias Quiet switches. I prefer MX Brown, right after MX Clear. Those are my two favorite switches.

Oobly: Once they're worn in, Brown switches are quite okay. There's enough tactility to register that they've actuated, even though sometimes it's only subconcious while typing fast, it's still there and does the job. [...] With light caps on, they can feel quite effortless to type on, and I find the small amount of tactility they have to be just enough. I definitely prefer 62g ErgoClears, though, [...]

Rayoui:  I prefer Browns [...] to all the other switches I have tried.

[Polymer]

Sorry you had to type all that, but you're wrong. It's personal preference.

Let me spell out what you are claiming in concrete terms:

1. There are people who prefer a scratchy switch to an otherwise identical smoother switch
2. There are people who prefer a switch that sometimes fail to actuate or sometimes double-actuates to an otherwise identical switch that works consistently
3. There are people who prefer a switch that actuates slightly before the tactile point to an otherwise identical switch that actuates at or slightly after the tactile point
4. There are people who prefer a switch that binds when pressed slightly off center to an otherwise identical switch which does not
5. There are people who prefer a switch which sticks at the bottom to an otherwise identical switch which does not
etc.

I maintain that that’s nonsense. Please find me some of these crazy people. Maybe in Turkey everyone’s a masochist who likes cheap/slightly broken tools?

Scratchy is subjective.  Some people don't feel MX are scratchy.  Not to mention some people enjoy a bit more friction (and others do not).  You're using the other points to try to strawman your way into this one. 

BROKEN items, such as ones that don't actuate, no point in talking about them, they're defective. 

Ones that don't work right when hit off center...People probably don't want that..but if your ideal switch did that but you never hit a key off center enough for this to happen, would you care?  Probably not..

Actuation point, some people might prefer it higher although most probably do not....I would argue 30g Topre actuates BEFORE the tactile bump yet some people enjoy 30g Topre (I don't btw).

What is actually the point?  Some things are subjective and some are not...but sounds like you're trying to weasel your way into showing how MX switches are inferior...

[ekw808]

A great man once said:

"Everybody, behave and stop bickering. This forum is about inspiring more people to get into mechanical keyboards. I've never understood people who argue constantly about who is wrong and who is right, because the fact is, there are many 'right' answers, especially for people just starting out.

Do me a favor. Try to focus more on expanding the mechanical keyboard community as a whole than protecting your little corner of it."

More or less.

Everyone is a hypebeast. Use what you like.

Let's keep the discussion CIVIL.

[jacobolus]

Scratchy is subjective.  Some people don't feel MX are scratchy.  Not to mention some people enjoy a bit more friction (and others do not). [...] sounds like you're trying to weasel your way into showing how MX switches are inferior...

Who likes more friction? I’ve never heard from this person who savors a frictiony switch.

You’re putting words in my mouth. I think it’s totally fine and reasonable for someone to love MX red switches despite the friction, Matias switches despite the wobble, ML switches despite their binding on off-center presses, NEC switches despite their “premature actuation” (pre-tactile-point), Omron switches despite their propensity to occasionally double actuate, MX clear switches despite their slightly sticky return stroke, certain Alps clones despite their huge variation in feel and stiffness from one switch to another, or even MY or “clicky” Futaba switches (god help those people though).

I don’t think it’s possible to prove a keyswitch “inferior” in some overall sense. My point was only to establish, as a baseline between folks who were disagreeing with each-other based on tribal affiliation rather than reasoning, that we can in fact find some attributes of switches to judge in a not-entirely-subjective way. I don’t think there yet exists a perfect keyswitch, all of these switches have flaws and quirks.

[rainb1ood]

Does anyone else find MX Brown to feel much better on Original Cherry doubleshots?

[Polymer]

Who likes more friction? I’ve never heard from this person who savors a frictiony switch.

You’re putting words in my mouth.

Some people would argue browns are "frictiony".  Some people prefer non-lubed reds vs. lubed. There is obviously a point where that friction becomes a severe detriment...and there are many points where people don't even consider there to be a difference...

I'm not putting any words into your mouth...

[RoflCopter4]

All Cherry switches are overrated.

[nubbinator]

All Cherry switches are overrated.

Only stock.  Ghost Blacks and Ergo Clears are awesome.  "Vintage" Blues (I quote vintage since I think they're just broken in) are pretty good too, and I hate clicky switches.

That said OG Alps > Cherry

[blazarcher]

I love my brown switches on my Filco and Poker keyboards. And yes I only have brown switches altho I am tempted by some clears if anyone is selling

[Roibhilin]

geekhack dot org is the only place on the internet where there are flame wars about what you use in a keyboard

[Surnia]

Its interesting enough that I've lurked through a few of these phases of switch preference.

Back before the surge of Mechanical keyboards, there was a distinct "OMG BLACKS ARE THE BEST!!!". The general comments were that they're stiff enough to prevent bottoming out, and if you couldn't handle them your fingers were weak. Blacks at this point demanded a premium of ~$10 per keyboard.

Shortly after, we had a parallel surge of Browns and reds due to the lighter springs. Acknowledgement that you CAN type lighter on the lighter springs, and less fatigue meant you could go longer. However, the increase of pro gamers using reds pushed the red switches up in demand. Blacks were deemed stupid, and fell completely out of favour to the point where some boards weren't offered in blacks. This led to a parallel surge in pricing for browns and reds (similar to the blacks of old), with reds occasionally demanding a higher premium than browns.

At that point the demand for clears had grown so much that a few boards (ducky special, WASD had a limited run) offered clears. Deck was the only other maker that offered clears.

Just as I sort of fell out with buying more keyboards (thank god I managed to stop at 3 + a keypad), blues were coming into favour for typists/coders but they were more to balance demand (blacks stayed low).

Now its interesting that people shun browns altogether, and people are commonly recommending greens and whites.


Personal recommendation? play with each switch for about 20 minutes if you can. Ignore any differences in gritty-ness, as that diminishes in as little as a day of constant typing (or about a month on the longer end). 20 minutes will be enough to ascertain if the stiffer switches will cause too much fatigue, or if they're within your preference.

I ended up moving away from browns (the bumps actually made me bottom out every time), to blacks (you eventually adapt to just hitting the keys about half way... muscle memory.). Figure out which one suits your needs best, and that will be "the best" for you.

[Mountain Man]

geekhack dot org is the only place on the internet where there are flame wars about what you use in a keyboard

I love the notion that Cherry Browns are somehow "beginner" switches, and that Reds, Clears, etc. are for "advanced users".

[RoflCopter4]

geekhack dot org is the only place on the internet where there are flame wars about what you use in a keyboard

I love the notion that Cherry Browns are somehow "beginner" switches, and that Reds, Clears, etc. are for "advanced users".

Lol. All Cherry switches are beginner switches.

[demik]

All Cherry switches are overrated.

PREACH.

DOWN WITH CHERRY.

[mecano]

My only mechanical keyboard atm is a Poker II with cherry mx browns, and while I love it, I really want to try clears.

Exactly in the same position (Pure Pro here, but as the PCB states Poker...) and I feel that buying a tester to know if it worth it is bull****.
Let's have another keyboard !



OOT/ I did never notice but from your avatar it looks like the Norton guy switches from blacks to clears i(reading glasses) in the 80's!!!! \EOOOT

[blazarcher]

geekhack dot org is the only place on the internet where there are flame wars about what you use in a keyboard

I love the notion that Cherry Browns are somehow "beginner" switches, and that Reds, Clears, etc. are for "advanced users".

Lol. All Cherry switches are beginner switches.

Lol agreed. The closest switch that should be called beginner (transitioning from rubber domes to mechanical) is the MX clear which is the closest to being like a rubber dome xD But ofc, that's not how I feel about Clears!

[aceps00]

I find that browns are too light for my liking, and like others on this thread have said the tactile bump actuates way to high. Now having owned a mx red keyboard in the past, if I had a to choose between the two, I would pick the browns over reds any day of the week. 

[fuzzybaffy]

Its interesting enough that I've lurked through a few of these phases of switch preference.

Back before the surge of Mechanical keyboards, there was a distinct "OMG BLACKS ARE THE BEST!!!". The general comments were that they're stiff enough to prevent bottoming out, and if you couldn't handle them your fingers were weak. Blacks at this point demanded a premium of ~$10 per keyboard.

Shortly after, we had a parallel surge of Browns and reds due to the lighter springs. Acknowledgement that you CAN type lighter on the lighter springs, and less fatigue meant you could go longer. However, the increase of pro gamers using reds pushed the red switches up in demand. Blacks were deemed stupid, and fell completely out of favour to the point where some boards weren't offered in blacks. This led to a parallel surge in pricing for browns and reds (similar to the blacks of old), with reds occasionally demanding a higher premium than browns.

At that point the demand for clears had grown so much that a few boards (ducky special, WASD had a limited run) offered clears. Deck was the only other maker that offered clears.

Just as I sort of fell out with buying more keyboards (thank god I managed to stop at 3 + a keypad), blues were coming into favour for typists/coders but they were more to balance demand (blacks stayed low).

Now its interesting that people shun browns altogether, and people are commonly recommending greens and whites.


Personal recommendation? play with each switch for about 20 minutes if you can. Ignore any differences in gritty-ness, as that diminishes in as little as a day of constant typing (or about a month on the longer end). 20 minutes will be enough to ascertain if the stiffer switches will cause too much fatigue, or if they're within your preference.

I ended up moving away from browns (the bumps actually made me bottom out every time), to blacks (you eventually adapt to just hitting the keys about half way... muscle memory.). Figure out which one suits your needs best, and that will be "the best" for you.

With different Cherry switches constantly going in and out of favor, I have to wonder if people actually like Cherry switches. =P