Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears

[The Solutor]

hahaha

[The Solutor]

Panda clears is an awesome name.

 
Tactoblacks...:painkiller:

[RickyJ]

Just finished swapping clear stems into my keypad (had blues).  Cleaned off the tactile bumps before adding a tiny dab of white lithium grease to each leg.  With the lighter spring it really feels like the keys want to get stuck on the way back up, but it also feels like that eases up with use (in the last 5 minutes anyways).  I'll give it more time before I form my opinion, but initial impressions weren't great.

[The Solutor]

I'll give it more time before I form my opinion

If the switches are brand new, you should wait one or two week depending (on the keyboard usage) to give a little burn in to the stems.

It's also statistically normal that a couple of stems over 100 are too tactile or even prone to stick, in that case just replace them

[RickyJ]

The stems are from a G80 POS board that was in quite good condition, I didn't notice any inconsistent switches during the 1.5 months I used the board.  It's not that the switches stick down at all, they just feel like they want to rest in the tactile valley instead of bouncing right back up like my browns.  They feel chunky even when pressing keys quickly. :/

[wompwomp]

Wait a minute, what's wrong with the stock springs?

[Findecanor]

So ... let me see if I have got this right:
1. Original Cherry Clear springs are stiffer than Cherry Black springs?
2. Cherry Clear stem + Cherry Black spring = Panda Clear switch.

A Panda Clear switch is softer how?
1. Is the initial resistance changed?
2. Is the tactile feel changed?
3. Is the landing after actuation softer?

Not too long ago, I was almost about to buy a keyboard with Panda Clears but the seller told me that the switches were stiffer than original Clears. How can they be?
I can imagine that the tactile bump would feel like it is larger in relation to the spring's stiffness.. but that is all.

[keyboardlover]

The seller was BSing you. IMHO, panda clears feel much like a tactile black. Not my cup of tea but they're pretty nice.

[The Solutor]

Why do you think Panda Clears would be better than standard clears against bottoming?

Panda clears, like panda blue doesn't exist so hardly they bottom out.

[keyboardlover]

What isn't a Panda Clear?

Fixed for you.

[keyboardlover]

Tacto black is very descriptive but doesn't make much sense since its a clear stem. Panda clear is simply another title I came up with for the same switch (clear stem + black spring).

[The Solutor]

Tacto black is very descriptive but doesn't make much sense since its a clear stem. Panda clear is simply another title I came up with for the same switch (clear stem + black spring).

The panda itself is a white animal with black patches or a black one with white patches ?

Same problem here, a panda clear could be a black stem with the clear spring or viceversa...

[The Solutor]

It's also endangered and has difficulty with reproduction.

Yeah, I tried a panda clear the the autorepeat function stopped working

[greyhounds]

The spring rate of the clear spring is higher than that of the black spring. They provide the same amount of force at 2mm travel. Due to the spring rate difference, the clear spring requires lower force below 2mm and higher force above 2mm than the black spring does.

If you are looking to minimize the amount of work required to trigger the switch, but maximize the resistance of the spring before the bottoming out point (to reduce bottoming impact), the clear spring would be a good choice.

I've got curves plotted on my machine at work for each spring on a black stem (and forpretty much any other combination you can think of), and it shows the difference between the two springs very clearly. I'll try to remember to post that here Monday.

[greyhounds]

That's something I hadn't considered.

I can use a Ripometer, dial indicator, and some clear springs to determine the exact spring rate of the clear springs. That'll get us alot closer to a true profile for the clear switches. At least we'll know exactly what happens above 2mm travel.

I'll also try to plot a few points on the cam of the Clear switch as well to verify it (ie, <2mm travel). It may be that I just need to take the published Clear switch curve, subtract out the spring they claimed it to have, and substitute in the actual spring values based on my tests.

All my junk is at work though so it'll have to be next week some time.

[greyhounds]

Here's the plot of a standard black switch compared to a black stem with clear spring. This is based on the published curve data though, so I'll revise this once I've tested the clear spring. Hope this comes out OK as I haven't tried to upload files/pics before.

[ Guests cannot view attachments ] 25285[/ATTACH]

[The Solutor]

Here's the plot of a standard black switch compared to a black stem with clear spring. This is based on the published curve data though, so I'll revise this once I've tested the clear spring. Hope this comes out OK as I haven't tried to upload files/pics before.

(Attachment Link) 25285[/ATTACH]

Makes sense

[greyhounds]

Ripster, you were right. The clear springs are much closer to the published black spring chart then they are to the clear spring chart.

The force measurements I just took from the clear springs are:
4.2mm = 85g
2.8mm = 71g

Both of these are taken beyond 2mm travel, so just the spring is in play regardless of the stem (well, except maybe blues, but I had browns here). If you compare these to the black chart, you can see they are almost dead on. Crazy.

So for all practical purposes it looks like clear springs are functionally the same as black springs. That's sad though - I'd really like something with a faster rate like the clear spring is supposed to have had.

[Lanx]

The stems are from a G80 POS board that was in quite good condition, I didn't notice any inconsistent switches during the 1.5 months I used the board.  It's not that the switches stick down at all, they just feel like they want to rest in the tactile valley instead of bouncing right back up like my browns.  They feel chunky even when pressing keys quickly. :/

it felt this way to me as well since i've been typing on browns for maybe a year? you'll get used to it lol, i actually have one half of my board ergo clears and browns (1 cuz i wanted to see the difference, 2 i stopped midway cuz i wanted to finish another mod), and you can really tell the difference.

[itlnstln]

it felt this way to me as well since i've been typing on browns for maybe a year? you'll get used to it lol, i actually have one half of my board ergo clears and browns (1 cuz i wanted to see the difference, 2 i stopped midway cuz i wanted to finish another mod), and you can really tell the difference.

I concur.  Clears with too light of a spring tend to feel "sticky."

[domin8r]

Converted my old G80-1000 from blacks to panda clears last night.. And I have to say I really, really like it!
I got the stems from BiNiaRiS and he had also added the clear springs as a bonus but after trying it for a bit I much prefer the black springs compared to those.
Still willing to try Ergo-clears but for now loving this!

(Not sure if I like this more than blues, will have to try it for a bit I guess)

[N8N]

could you describe the difference you feel between the black and clear springs?  I thought they were supposed to be very similar.  I actually have some blacks but I think they're sold, and I have too many other projects going at the moment.

[domin8r]

could you describe the difference you feel between the black and clear springs?  I thought they were supposed to be very similar.  I actually have some blacks but I think they're sold, and I have too many other projects going at the moment.

Well I visually compared the springs from the black and the clear and they are definitely different!
It's a bit hard to describe but to me the clear stem + clear spring felt heavier/less smooth. That also made it feel less tactile (if that makes sense).

I only tried it with a few switches to compare.. so I haven't fully typed on it, not sure if that would make a difference.

[The Solutor]

could you describe the difference you feel between the black and clear springs?  I thought they were supposed to be very similar.

They are similar but the difference is perceptible, black spring is stiffer in the first piece of the keystroke, clears are stiffer at the end of the keystroke.

[N8N]

They are similar but the difference is perceptible, black spring is stiffer in the first piece of the keystroke, clears are stiffer at the end of the keystroke.

hmm, if that is the case then it's probably not worth it to me to try the experiment, because that is really what i like about the clears, the way they get noticeably stiffer after the tactile point without feeling artificial like the o-rings.  If that makes any sense whatsoever...

[keyboardlover]

I didn't find them to feel very similar at all. I found Tacto (Panda) Clears to feel mostly like a black switch with a tactile bump.

[keyboardlover]

10g more is a BIG difference in feel.

[The Solutor]

Hmmm... I didn't feel that but The Solutor and I always disagree.  It's remarkable how similar a Tactoclear and a Cherry Clear are.

Tactoblack

BTW

I think this graph posted earlier is pretty close to the truth



the difference can be felt more on cyan switches vs blues + black spring (feel free to found a name for them, night blue, dark blue, inter switches, whatever).

Cyan are pretty nice.

[keyboardlover]

Yea - I meant in comparison to an ergo clear (blue/brown/red) spring - not in comparison to a standard clear switch.

Weren't you saying the two felt remarkably similar?

[RickyJ]

Just redid this mod using broken-in clear switches instead of brand new blue switches, night-and-day difference.  I'll give it more time, my cheapo Adesso keypad isn't the best demo unit.

[domin8r]

Tacto black is very descriptive but doesn't make much sense since its a clear stem. Panda clear is simply another title I came up with for the same switch (clear stem + black spring).

For some reason I always think of browns when I see the term tactile.. I wouldn't know I would guess Tacto Black would be black springs with brown stems..

[litster]

I do like the panda clear name, because it gives me a visual cue in my head that it is white and black.  Where as tacto black makes me do 2 conversions in my head: something in this switch is black (spring or stem?), tacto here is ... hum, white, so the black is hum, ah the spring.  I have to go through that thought process every time :-).  

Panda clear works better for me.

[litster]

Panda clear sounds girly though.

[The Solutor]

For some reason I always think of browns when I see the term tactile..

For some the reason when i see the term tactile, I think to anything but the brown switches.

Maybe it's because they are the less tactile thing on the universe ?

[The Solutor]

It's because you haven't tried a real linear until you've tried the Cherry Red switch.

Captain obvious, actually I have two linear boards. I was talking about the tactile switch world...

[The Solutor]

Are you a Wizard?
(Attachment Link) 26210[/ATTACH]

No, just the humble MacGyver's teacher :becky:

[The Solutor]

I stuck these in the Cherry MX wiki as "Ergo Clears".

I left the Black Spring/Clear Stem mod as "Tacto Clears AND Panda Clears".
.

Tacto BLACK
<
BTW feel free to change your mind about the switch name, btw then I will feel free to call the ergo clears with their logical name, "beige".

[keyboardlover]

Panda clears won. I know this because it's on my website.

[Lanx]

modded a whole board to ergo clears, feels good and with the kinesis sound too. well the sound is getting annoying.

[keyboardlover]

Nice!!

[ishtob]

my modded poker's got ergo clears, and i love it

[domin8r]

Modded my Compaq MX-11800 to a bit of a mix. Have a all the regular keys modded to ergo clears, the arrow keys to ghetto reds and the rest I left brown (don't care about the tactile feedback of my functions keys and such)

Gotta say the difference between panda clears and ergo clears is really noticeable! I think I prefer the ergo clears.. but the panda clears come in a close second

[keyboardlover]

Glad you like them! Be sure to vote here.

[fossala]

I have been playing with ergo clears on my poker. I like them but I prefer strait clears.

[domin8r]

After using my panda clears again for a few days it's still hard to pick the best clear setup.. I love the "bounciness" of panda clears but the ergo clears feel more tactile and light..

[fossala]

I just found ergos a bit sticky. But I also like a heavier switch.

[domin8r]

I just found ergos a bit sticky. But I also like a heavier switch.

I've found that the keycaps make quite a difference too.. the ergos felt a lot better when I fitted heavy cherry keycaps instead of the flimsy default MX11800 keycaps!

[Roguemaster8]

Just got a Poker with ergo clears, these are definitely a superior switch.

Tactile as hell, but not obnoxiously clicky.

[keyboardlover]

Glad you like 'em! I've been typing on mine for the last couple months now. Love 'em.