Author Topic: Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears  (Read 122986 times)

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Offline keyboardlover

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« on: Sat, 16 April 2011, 14:11:20 »
[H=2]NEW[/H]
Have you tried Ergo Clears, Panda Clears or some other Clear mod? Be sure to vote here!

Also, please see the mod explained in more detail on my website.

[H=2]Overview[/H]
Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears are my favorite switch. The name originated when mtl added it to the Cherry MX wiki. Basically to get an "Ergo" Clear, you need a Cherry MX clear switch.

Then you need to pop off the top of the switch housing (de-solder first if need be) and replace the cherry clear spring inside which looks like this:

With the spring from a Cherry MX blue, red or brown switch (these are all the same spring):

On a PCB-mounted switch keyboard, this mod is very easy to accomplish. On plate-mounted, it will be more difficult because you will need to de-solder all the switches from the plate and then solder the modded switches back in.

[H=2]Feel[/H]
The feel of these switches is basically like a cherry brown with a much more noticeable tactile bump. If you like browns or even Topres but feel like you need more tactility, this may be the perfect switch for you.

[H=2]For more information[/H]
Please see the "Mods" section of the Cherry MX wiki.
« Last Edit: Sat, 16 April 2011, 14:24:57 by keyboardlover »

Offline Mr. Perfect

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 16 April 2011, 14:17:19 »
Uh oh, we've got multiple versions of this Ergo Clear floating around now. The first one I saw was Harrison's, which uses Clear stems and Black springs. Now we've got Really Ergo Clears, with the Red/Blue/Brown spring in them.
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Offline keyboardlover

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 16 April 2011, 14:22:07 »
Quote from: ripster;332273
Nice overview.

But btw I didn't use the term or discover this. I first saw it in the Cherry Wiki when Mtl added it.


Thanks, I updated the Mod article with that info.
« Last Edit: Sat, 16 April 2011, 14:27:14 by keyboardlover »

Offline Mr. Perfect

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 16 April 2011, 14:24:21 »
Oh yeah, mtl then. I was following a link in Harrison's unicorn board thread, but didn't bother to read who wrote that article. :doh:
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Offline Cata1yst

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 18 April 2011, 00:30:56 »
Quote from: Mr. Perfect;332271
Uh oh, we've got multiple versions of this Ergo Clear floating around now. The first one I saw was Harrison's, which uses Clear stems and Black springs. Now we've got Really Ergo Clears, with the Red/Blue/Brown spring in them.

 
This.

Wasnt the latter noted by ripster as identical almost to cherry browns? And it was the Clear stem on black springs that were the browns with a bit more of a tactile bump?

Offline Zet

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 05 June 2011, 08:36:35 »
First off, nice mod man :)
Second, I didn't that Clear switches had another spring and that Red/Brown/Blue had the  same spring... I thought Reds and Browns had a much lighter spring(perhaps not the same) than Blues, and that another thing that 'determined' the force required for the switch to act, was the spring...

Great thing to know now thanks!

Offline sordna

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 00:30:28 »
So, how do ergo clears compare to blues? Aside from the sound and hysteresis of the blues, how do they compare in feel ?
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Offline The Solutor

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 00:36:30 »
Quote from: sordna;372885
So, how do ergo clears compare to blues? Aside from the sound and hysteresis of the blues, how do they compare in feel ?

 
They are very close, but they miss that perceivable two stroke action. Plain clears instead feels more like stiffer browns, because the increased tactility is somewhat masked by the stiffer spring.
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Offline sordna

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 00:48:50 »
Quote from: The Solutor;372888
They are very close, but they miss that perceivable two stroke action.

Is that a good or bad thing? I wish someone could devise a force graph of the ergo (modded) clears. It would help compare their feel to the blues.

Maybe you can draw lines for the ergo clears on top of one of these graphs to show the differences ? As The Solutor, I believe you are capable of this !




Above images are courtesy of the Cherry wiki of course.
« Last Edit: Mon, 04 July 2011, 01:02:39 by sordna »
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Offline The Solutor

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 01:24:04 »
Quote from: sordna;372892
Is that a good or bad thing?

 

For me is a very good thing. I like the clicky keys, but I always felt the blues as something fake, something meant to mimic the BS behavior in a tricky way.

Is matter of milliseconds but you can feel a lag from the tactile point and the click/electrical actuation this is missing on ergo clears, as is missed most of the hysteresis, btw this means also a bit less crispy action, and this can deduced even from the graphs: white curve is more curvy.

Quote
As The Solutor, I believe you are capable of this !



Shouldn't "solutor" be a meaningless word in English ? :party:

Btw I'll try, but obviously the graph will be something  "simulated" not really tested....
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Offline Input Nirvana

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 01:50:04 »
Quote from: The Solutor;372913
Shouldn't "solutor" be a meaningless word in English ? :party:.

Yes, but the avatar fills in the blanks!
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Offline The Solutor

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 02:00:55 »
Quote from: input nirvana;372927
Yes, but the avatar fills in the blanks!

 
BTW the idea was to have a purposely misspelled word for "The Solver", and altough I think solutor is correct in some nordic languages, the idea was not that bad, if uou search for "the solver" you find a lot of things, if you search for "The Solutor" you find just me (and the almost unknown "Saint Solutor").
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Offline The Solutor

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 04:44:40 »
Anyway the interpolated graph (not based on instrumental measurements) is ready, take it with a grain of salt but should be close enough to the behavior of the real switch.

« Last Edit: Mon, 04 July 2011, 09:26:53 by The Solutor »
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Offline Input Nirvana

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 11:18:24 »
Quote from: The Solutor;372976
Anyway the interpolated graph (not based on instrumental measurements) is ready, take it with a grain of salt but should be close enough to the behavior of the real switch.

Show Image

 
To clarify, this is for the CLEAR stem with a BROWN/BLUE/RED spring = "ERGO CLEAR".

Not to be confused with the CLEAR stem with BLACK spring = "TACTO CLEAR".
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Offline keyboardlover

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 11:33:24 »
I'm curious to see (and maybe do myself) more research on the "tacto" aka "taco" aka "panda" clears. Unfortunately I don't have any black springs.



Might end up getting a poker with blacks or something and modding it.

Offline sordna

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 11:38:29 »
Thank mr Solutor, very nice! Until someone takes measurements with very expensive instruments, your interpolated graph will serve just fine. Quite useful - true GeekHack stuff !
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Offline The Solutor

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 13:26:37 »
Quote from: input nirvana;373090
To clarify, this is for the CLEAR stem with a BROWN/BLUE/RED spring = "ERGO CLEAR".

 
I thought the graph's tile was "clear" enough :happy:
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #17 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 13:27:33 »
Nice work, Solutor.

Offline The Solutor

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #18 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 13:46:45 »
Quote from: ripster;373097

Several of the Cherry Corp old force curves aren't quite accurate.  Unfortunately I haven't seen an updated Cherry Clear force curve.

 
I agree, for me clear and blacks spring are close enough if not identical. Try to push each other a black and a clear springs using a a screwdriver's stem as pivot (maybe not the correct word, i have 11 English words for the Italian perno) and see what happens.

Btw the only way I had was to be consistent with the other graphs rather than super accurate..
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Offline Input Nirvana

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #19 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 13:47:16 »
Quote from: The Solutor;373162
I thought the graph's tile was "clear" enough :happy:

 
How about a graph for a "Tacto Clear"? Or is that not a desirable switch? I'm re-reading a couple wikis about them now.
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Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #20 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 13:47:20 »
@sordna and KL, danke...
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #21 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 13:49:40 »
Quote from: ripster;373187
I thanked you first you ungrateful slut.

 
Bwahahahahaha

Offline The Solutor

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #22 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 13:50:05 »
Quote from: ripster;373187
I thanked you first you ungrateful slut.

 
I purposed a bit of brainstorming, better than a thank for a keyboard scientist. :happy:
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Offline The Solutor

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #23 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 13:54:54 »
Quote from: input nirvana;373184
How about a graph for a "Tacto Clear"? Or is that not a desirable switch? I'm re-reading a couple wikis about them now.

 
First I think tacto clear is a pointless name.

I purposed tacto black (and people agreed) because tacto = clear stem, black = black spring.

A tacto clear is just a clear, given this metric...

Second I haven't tested one of it but just the springs, and the looks different but act almost the same, if not identical

Third even if the difference is real should be too little to be worth.. IMO getto black (red) and ergo clears are the only worth mods (i tried also glued blues, they are too close to browns).

Maybe the BS lovers may like blue stems + clear or black springs....
« Last Edit: Mon, 04 July 2011, 14:16:16 by The Solutor »
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Offline The Solutor

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #24 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 14:33:02 »
Quote from: ripster;373192

American humor sometimes doesn't translate well.

(Attachment Link) 20053[/ATTACH]

 
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Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #25 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 14:34:30 »
Quote from: The Solutor;373194
First I think tacto clear is a pointless name.

I purposed tacto black (and people agreed) because tacto = clear stem, black = black spring.

A tacto clear is just a clear, given this metric...

Second I haven't tested one of it but just the springs, and the looks different but act almost the same, if not identical

Third even if the difference is real should be too little to be worth.. IMO getto black (red) and ergo clears are the only worth mods (i tried also glued blues, they are too close to browns).

Maybe the BS lovers may like blue stems + clear or black springs....

 
"tacto clear" name came from the wiki...
"ghetto reds" are a good mod, but if you get real "reds" you don't need the mod...
black springs and clear springs are basically the same in this instance...

[ Guests cannot view attachments ] 20054[/ATTACH]   [ Guests cannot view attachments ] 20055[/ATTACH]
« Last Edit: Mon, 04 July 2011, 14:40:05 by input nirvana »
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Offline keyboardlover

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #26 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 14:40:17 »
So...it sounds like tacto and ergo clears are nearly identical in feel?

Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #27 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 18:34:15 »
Quote from: input nirvana;373229
"tacto clear" name came from the wiki...

 
I don't know from where the tacto clear name materialized.

We had a discussion about names. I accepted the ergo clear name for beige switches and other people agreed about the tactoblack name, which is good not because was a my idea but because is self explanatory.

Quote
"ghetto reds" are a good mod, but if you get real "reds" you don't need the mod...


Yes but still limited to some brands, still less common than other switches.

Quote
So...it sounds like tacto and ergo clears are nearly identical in feel?


Looks that clears and tactoblacks are near identical in feeling, but really I haven't experimented with real switches, just the springs, so this is  not something that I sell as truth, but just the first results of some early tests...
« Last Edit: Mon, 04 July 2011, 18:37:33 by The Solutor »
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Offline Input Nirvana

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #28 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 19:44:54 »
Listing modded switches....

[ Guests cannot view attachments ] 20064[/ATTACH]

Tacto clear as named in wiki....(this is where I saw it)

[ Guests cannot view attachments ] 20065[/ATTACH]

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Cherry+switches+and+boards
« Last Edit: Mon, 04 July 2011, 19:47:49 by input nirvana »
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Offline The Solutor

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #29 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 19:49:49 »
Quote from: input nirvana;373445

Tacto clear as named in wiki....(this is where I saw it)

 

I assume the ripster's memory failed again, I'll wait a word from ripster about this, to see if there is a valid reason I missed, if not I'll correct this.
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Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #30 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 19:58:20 »
Quote from: The Solutor;373446
I assume the ripster's memory failed again, I'll wait a word from ripster about this, to see if there is a valid reason I missed, if not I'll correct this.

 
WHAT??? I have to unlearn "tacto clear" and re-learn it as "tacto black"??????
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Offline sordna

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #31 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 19:59:55 »
Quote from: input nirvana;373454
WHAT??? I have to unlearn "tacto clear" and re-learn it as "tacto black"??????

Someone also suggested "panda clears" as an alternative name, IIRC.
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Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #32 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 20:00:23 »
Quote from: input nirvana;373454
WHAT??? I have to unlearn "tacto clear" and re-learn it as "tacto black"??????

 
The only place where this name appears is a single entry in wiky so I assume is just a mistake
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Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #33 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 20:01:44 »
Quote from: sordna;373456
Someone also suggested "panda clears" as an alternative name, IIRC.

 
Is surely better than tacto clears.

Clears are tactile since they left the cherry factory
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #34 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 20:08:22 »
I wonder WHO that person was?


Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #35 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 20:10:21 »
In a month, I want to collect several of all the various Cherry switches so I can feel and compare, including some of the modded switches. A couple people have expressed an interest in the same, or just getting a couple more as part of what I'm getting. I made a note in my sig to PM me. I'd like to collect any info on this by then so I can order/trade/make the switches for myself and anyone else.
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Offline RiGS

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« Reply #36 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 20:23:22 »
IIRC mtl said that the panda clears felt a lot better than the default clear switches.
Last edited by RiGS; Jan 2011

Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #37 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 20:26:02 »
Sounds like they are a bit softer. My curiosity has been piqued.

Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #38 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 21:06:43 »
Quote from: RiGS;373476
IIRC mtl said that the panda clears felt a lot better than the default clear switches.

 
Let me show what I mean.

On the left a black's spring, on the right a clear one.

There is a difference, but is really tiny.

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Offline Input Nirvana

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #39 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 21:13:06 »
Fun graphic.

I'll make a couple switches of each. It's worth trying out.
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Offline sordna

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« Reply #40 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 21:17:28 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;373477
Sounds like they are a bit softer. My curiosity has been piqued.

 
Well, ergo clears are even softer than panda clears. So the panda clear would be in-between regular clears and ergo clears.
Probably not worth the mod as much as the ergo clears.
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Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #41 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 21:28:34 »
Quote
Fun graphic.


Hehe MacGyver, was an amteur...
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Offline dux

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #42 on: Fri, 08 July 2011, 03:11:22 »
I like everything about the blue mx except that I'm bottoming too often. Do you think ergo clears have the potential to change that? Probably not...

Standard clears are said to be good for not bottoming, but I have them on work and I don't like the non-crispy frictiony action around the pressure point at all. The softer spring probably makes it crispier, but then again also more prone to bottoming.

Offline REVENGE

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #43 on: Fri, 08 July 2011, 03:16:59 »
Quote from: dux;376006
I like everything about the blue mx except that I'm bottoming too often. Do you think ergo clears have the potential to change that? Probably not...

Standard clears are said to be good for not bottoming, but I have them on work and I don't like the non-crispy frictiony action around the pressure point at all. The softer spring probably makes it crispier, but then again also more prone to bottoming.
Why don't you give Panda Blues a try. Take a Black spring and put it under a Blue stem. Feels pretty good to me.

Speaking of which, Panda Clears are probably what you want if you're trying to avoid bottoming out, but the default Clear feel bothers you.
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Offline dux

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #44 on: Fri, 08 July 2011, 04:20:22 »
Quote from: REVENGE;376009
Why don't you give Panda Blues a try. Take a Black spring and put it under a Blue stem. Feels pretty good to me.

Speaking of which, Panda Clears are probably what you want if you're trying to avoid bottoming out, but the default Clear feel bothers you.


Well, since the stiffness of the spring doesn't influence the click mechanism of the blues, I thought they would maybe partly lose their clicky feel due to the black spring. Ok, that looks like a contradiction, but what I mean is: higher force + same click = less clicky feel + same click sound

But yes, it could be interesting for non bottoming. I think I'll try them.

Why do you think Panda Clears would be better than standard clears against bottoming? I would say: less force + same click mechanism = more bottoming.

Offline REVENGE

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #45 on: Fri, 08 July 2011, 04:38:40 »
Quote from: dux;376027
Well, since the stiffness of the spring doesn't influence the click mechanism of the blues, I thought they would maybe partly lose their clicky feel due to the black spring. Ok, that looks like a contradiction, but what I mean is: higher force + same click = less clicky feel + same click sound

But yes, it could be interesting for non bottoming. I think I'll try them.

Why do you think Panda Clears would be better than standard clears against bottoming? I would say: less force + same click mechanism = more bottoming.

Regarding the Panda Blues, I feel like Cherry Greens are even more tactile than your average Blue, and as far as I'm aware, they're a Blue stem with a super heavy spring.

Regarding the Panda Clears, I was implying that they would resist bottoming out like a standard Clear, but also feel nicer due to the Black spring.
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Offline dux

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #46 on: Fri, 08 July 2011, 05:05:01 »
Quote from: REVENGE;376032

Regarding the Panda Clears, I was implying that they would resist bottoming out like a standard Clear, but also feel nicer due to the Black spring.


cool, thanx. Now I really am into Panda Blues.

Offline The Solutor

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #47 on: Fri, 08 July 2011, 07:02:06 »
Quote
Well, since the stiffness of the spring doesn't influence the click mechanism of the blues, I thought they would maybe partly lose their clicky feel due to the black spring. Ok, that looks like a contradiction, but what I mean is: higher force + same click = less clicky feel + same click sound


Unlike plain clear and tactoblack, both light blues and dark blues will retain most of the tactility and klickness.

P.S. Please stop calling switches with misleading names.  While panda clears could be a valid alternative to tactoblacks, what a panda blue is supposed to be ? white and blue or black and blue ?
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Offline keyboardlover

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #48 on: Fri, 08 July 2011, 07:49:28 »
Panda clears is an awesome name.



Maybe if this key is in group buy 4 I can get it on my board by 2052!

Offline REVENGE

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #49 on: Fri, 08 July 2011, 07:56:03 »
Quote from: The Solutor;376069
black and blue ?
Cherry Bruise?
« Last Edit: Fri, 08 July 2011, 08:00:07 by REVENGE »
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