[IC] GEECKERS TOOLING INVESTMENTS

[jdcarpe]

I was just thinking that if its truly a beginner's kit, maybe soldering four switches is less intimidating than twenty.

Oh absolutely -- and more affordable. Call it the 'Level 0 Keyboard Maker Kit' -- and it would be small enough to route out several at once.
I have no idea if that's feasible, though -- just an idea. It would be cool if you could program it to launch four applications. Or make one of the keys a function key, so six applications/macros/whatever.

Krogenar
Level 1 in "Making"
Level 100 in "Conjecturing Wildly"

I think this is actually a great idea. We design a little 4x5 numpad PCB kit with the (ATmega32U4) controller presoldered and preprogrammed. All the corresponding electronics are through-hole and would be included in the kit. Also, PCB-mount switches would be provided in the kit. For the true beginner, have everything but the switches soldered already. For a little bit more advanced kit, the builder would have to solder the through-hole resistors, capacitors, USB connector, etc.

Sometimes, soldering ~4 switches just isn't enough practice. You need to get into a groove, and by the time you've soldered that 20th switch in place, you've gotten there.

No need to include a case. This would make a great little kit for a beginner, and in the end you have something you built which you can actually use. Throw some keycaps on it, place it on a mat of some kind, and you're running your self built numpad.

[Melvang]

Well apparently I am a little late on this.  But my original vote would be to go for a separate small booth the same size as your media cabinet for powder.  You don't really want to mix those to if you want quality powder coating.  Keep in mind that powder technology has been improving LEAPS and BOUNDS the last few years or so.  Now a days the part does not even need to conduct to be able to powder coat it.  I actually have a powder coat shop within an hour of me that has the capabilities to powder coat wood.  The powder was developed for coating materials that have out gassing issues when brought up to standard powder cure temps.  These powders cure at a much lower temp with the assistance from a strong UV light source.  So powder coating plastic cases isn't really that far out of the question depending on the plastic used of course.

So my official vote would be to put the money into either powder coating or getting the 3d printer up and running reliably.  If that means selling/parting out and getting one from a different company I don't have an issue with that as long as we can get one running when we want it to. 

I apologize if this portion of the train has left the station and a new one has pulled in but just thought I would throw in my 2 caps worth.

Melvang

[CPTBadAss]

I think this is actually a great idea. We design a little 4x5 numpad PCB kit with the (ATmega32U4) controller presoldered and preprogrammed. All the corresponding electronics are through-hole and would be included in the kit. Also, PCB-mount switches would be provided in the kit. For the true beginner, have everything but the switches soldered already. For a little bit more advanced kit, the builder would have to solder the through-hole resistors, capacitors, USB connector, etc.

Sometimes, soldering ~4 switches just isn't enough practice. You need to get into a groove, and by the time you've soldered that 20th switch in place, you've gotten there.

No need to include a case. This would make a great little kit for a beginner, and in the end you have something you built which you can actually use. Throw some keycaps on it, place it on a mat of some kind, and you're running your self built numpad.

My switch tester is mounted to this and then sits on top of foam. Maybe we could do that? Or....have kawa print cases to go with it?

Regardless of the details, I think a beginner's soldering kit paired with the introductory soldering iron kawa wants to sell seems like a great idea.

[Krogenar]

I think this is actually a great idea. We design a little 4x5 numpad PCB kit with the (ATmega32U4) controller presoldered and preprogrammed. All the corresponding electronics are through-hole and would be included in the kit. Also, PCB-mount switches would be provided in the kit. For the true beginner, have everything but the switches soldered already. For a little bit more advanced kit, the builder would have to solder the through-hole resistors, capacitors, USB connector, etc.

Sometimes, soldering ~4 switches just isn't enough practice. You need to get into a groove, and by the time you've soldered that 20th switch in place, you've gotten there.

No need to include a case. This would make a great little kit for a beginner, and in the end you have something you built which you can actually use. Throw some keycaps on it, place it on a mat of some kind, and you're running your self built numpad.

My switch tester is mounted to this and then sits on top of foam. Maybe we could do that? Or....have kawa print cases to go with it?

Regardless of the details, I think a beginner's soldering kit paired with the introductory soldering iron kawa wants to sell seems like a great idea.

Or even this, your item, but with 2x5: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-pc-White-Keyboard-2x5-keys-10-keys-Metal-Panel/130303141925?rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D261%26meid%3D1723729029329168834%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D1088%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D5%26sd%3D130541363513%26 -- hell, if you could get the CNC to cut cardboard even halfway decently you could make a cardboard case for it. Or print the scoring lines on the box it comes in. Or make it a separate kit. Include a random kickass keycap in every box!

Also, talk to Soarer about how he would feel if we put together a converter kit -- that's got to be something people are always looking to do. What if we just bundled the basic components necessary?

I would break out all the components for these kits, and bundle them according to what the user what's to try to do. No case needed? No problem. Provide a video of how to do it. I think that would sell well.

[Melvang]

I think this is actually a great idea. We design a little 4x5 numpad PCB kit with the (ATmega32U4) controller presoldered and preprogrammed. All the corresponding electronics are through-hole and would be included in the kit. Also, PCB-mount switches would be provided in the kit. For the true beginner, have everything but the switches soldered already. For a little bit more advanced kit, the builder would have to solder the through-hole resistors, capacitors, USB connector, etc.

Sometimes, soldering ~4 switches just isn't enough practice. You need to get into a groove, and by the time you've soldered that 20th switch in place, you've gotten there.

No need to include a case. This would make a great little kit for a beginner, and in the end you have something you built which you can actually use. Throw some keycaps on it, place it on a mat of some kind, and you're running your self built numpad.

My switch tester is mounted to this and then sits on top of foam. Maybe we could do that? Or....have kawa print cases to go with it?

Regardless of the details, I think a beginner's soldering kit paired with the introductory soldering iron kawa wants to sell seems like a great idea.

Or even this, your item, but with 2x5: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-pc-White-Keyboard-2x5-keys-10-keys-Metal-Panel/130303141925?rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D261%26meid%3D1723729029329168834%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D1088%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D5%26sd%3D130541363513%26 -- hell, if you could get the CNC to cut cardboard even halfway decently you could make a cardboard case for it. Or print the scoring lines on the box it comes in. Or make it a separate kit. Include a random kickass keycap in every box!

Also, talk to Soarer about how he would feel if we put together a converter kit -- that's got to be something people are always looking to do. What if we just bundled the basic components necessary?

I would break out all the components for these kits, and bundle them according to what the user what's to try to do. No case needed? No problem. Provide a video of how to do it. I think that would sell well.

Trying to get a CNC mill to cut cardboard would be almost impossible due to how cardboard cuts when using basically a roatary file.  The ideal way to cut it would be shearing, read: die cut.  That is unless you have one with a servo motor on the head that can index a single vertical cutter blade.  Which would be prohibitively expensive for what we are planning on doing. 

I do agree with the converter kits.  I think that would be something that might sell pretty well on a geekhack site.

[Krogenar]

Trying to get a CNC mill to cut cardboard would be almost impossible due to how cardboard cuts when using basically a roatary file.

Correct. Some of the CNC mills out there may have the option of a drag knife, that can be dragged through the cardboard, as opposed to spinning.

The ideal way to cut it would be shearing, read: die cut.  That is unless you have one with a servo motor on the head that can index a single vertical cutter blade.  Which would be prohibitively expensive for what we are planning on doing.

From my experience, the routing (spinning head) is actually quite a bit more challenging than simply dragging a point. I don't know if the CNC I referenced earlier has that capability, but I'll check. Another thing to consider when buying any of these machines is whether there's a trade show featuring the machine -- get a floor model, a demo model. They've usually seen very little wear and tear, and you can get them for a steal at those shows. I've gotten a few digital printers that way. The manufacturer actually saves money from not having to lug the thing back home. Kawa, before you buy, see if there's a trade show nearby.

EDIT: Melvang -- it looks like this CNC is only three axis, it would NOT be able to rotate a drag knife to cut cardboard, sadly. It's basically a Dremel tool with XYZ axis: http://www.mydiycnc.com/content/new-bigfoot-desktop-cnc-machine-turnkey-system

[Melvang]

Trying to get a CNC mill to cut cardboard would be almost impossible due to how cardboard cuts when using basically a roatary file.

Correct. Some of the CNC mills out there may have the option of a drag knife, that can be dragged through the cardboard, as opposed to spinning.

The ideal way to cut it would be shearing, read: die cut.  That is unless you have one with a servo motor on the head that can index a single vertical cutter blade.  Which would be prohibitively expensive for what we are planning on doing.

From my experience, the routing (spinning head) is actually quite a bit more challenging than simply dragging a point. I don't know if the CNC I referenced earlier has that capability, but I'll check. Another thing to consider when buying any of these machines is whether there's a trade show featuring the machine -- get a floor model, a demo model. They've usually seen very little wear and tear, and you can get them for a steal at those shows. I've gotten a few digital printers that way. The manufacturer actually saves money from not having to lug the thing back home. Kawa, before you buy, see if there's a trade show nearby.

Either way we need to consider that this is going to be in an apartment.  Not the kind of setting for a half ton machine sitting on a 3'x3' base.  Chances are the floor won't be able to support that kind of point loading.  Hence why the mill that kawa posted about at the begenning of this thread had such a small table.  Another thing to consider with these mills is that to keep the tolerances as tight as what we want them to be the mill needs to be anchorded to the floor in such a way to induce as little vibration from outside sources as possible.  A somewhat loaded semi hitting a pothole outside the building could possible be enough to through a .001 tolerance right out the window.  On top of the fact that it should also be as close to level as feasibly possible.  This does not mean setting a 2' carpenters level on the bed and calling it good.  I am talking about using a machinist's level like the one I have in my precision box that has a graduated precision ground vial that has graduations marked out at .005" error per foot.  And this is the most common graduation they make.  For the truly precise in leveling this is what you need.  Granted this is an $800 level.  Problem with this is that unless you have a very think concrete floor (excess of 6" thick) this can't really be maintained.

[Krogenar]

Either way we need to consider that this is going to be in an apartment.  Not the kind of setting for a half ton machine sitting on a 3'x3' base.  Chances are the floor won't be able to support that kind of point loading.

The one kawa is looking at (and the one I suggested) are both tabletop CNCs, nowhere near half a ton.

Hence why the mill that kawa posted about at the begenning of this thread had such a small table.  Another thing to consider with these mills is that to keep the tolerances as tight as what we want them to be the mill needs to be anchorded to the floor in such a way to induce as little vibration from outside sources as possible.  A somewhat loaded semi hitting a pothole outside the building could possible be enough to through a .001 tolerance right out the window.

Is a .001 going to sink the usefulness of the mill, for what we want to do with it? Presumably this is why the really large CNC machines (the ones we're not discussing, since they cost in the tens of thousands of dollars) weigh what they do -- to reduce vibration. The CNC I researched has specs here: http://www.mydiycnc.com/content/mydiycnc-desktop-cnc-machine -- Melvang, you definitely seem to know more about this than I do. How does this CNC look to you?

On top of the fact that it should also be as close to level as feasibly possible.  This does not mean setting a 2' carpenters level on the bed and calling it good.  I am talking about using a machinist's level like the one I have in my precision box that has a graduated precision ground vial that has graduations marked out at .005" error per foot.  And this is the most common graduation they make.  For the truly precise in leveling this is what you need.  Granted this is an $800 level.  Problem with this is that unless you have a very think concrete floor (excess of 6" thick) this can't really be maintained.

Ok, you definitely do know more about setting up a CNC than I do. I've never owned one, but I find them fascinating. Can a CNC-milled wood or aluminum, or acrylic case allow for a .001 margin of error, or does that mean a desktop CNC won't work for us?

EDIT: the drag-knife attachment I was talking about is here (well one of them anyway): http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cut-Sign-Vinyl-Drag-Knife-Bit-for-CNC-Router-End-Mill-/230323725652

It's just a point that sort of self-orients as it's positioned over vinyl, cardboard, etc. That might conceivably put cardboard scoring into our grasp.

[Krogenar]

Screw both ideas -- buy a flocking cabinet. 

[Thimplum]

ok, that bigfoot thing looks really cool.

[Melvang]

Either way we need to consider that this is going to be in an apartment.  Not the kind of setting for a half ton machine sitting on a 3'x3' base.  Chances are the floor won't be able to support that kind of point loading.

The one kawa is looking at (and the one I suggested) are both tabletop CNCs, nowhere near half a ton.

Hence why the mill that kawa posted about at the begenning of this thread had such a small table.  Another thing to consider with these mills is that to keep the tolerances as tight as what we want them to be the mill needs to be anchorded to the floor in such a way to induce as little vibration from outside sources as possible.  A somewhat loaded semi hitting a pothole outside the building could possible be enough to through a .001 tolerance right out the window.

Is a .001 going to sink the usefulness of the mill, for what we want to do with it? Presumably this is why the really large CNC machines (the ones we're not discussing, since they cost in the tens of thousands of dollars) weigh what they do -- to reduce vibration. The CNC I researched has specs here: http://www.mydiycnc.com/content/mydiycnc-desktop-cnc-machine -- Melvang, you definitely seem to know more about this than I do. How does this CNC look to you?

On top of the fact that it should also be as close to level as feasibly possible.  This does not mean setting a 2' carpenters level on the bed and calling it good.  I am talking about using a machinist's level like the one I have in my precision box that has a graduated precision ground vial that has graduations marked out at .005" error per foot.  And this is the most common graduation they make.  For the truly precise in leveling this is what you need.  Granted this is an $800 level.  Problem with this is that unless you have a very think concrete floor (excess of 6" thick) this can't really be maintained.

Ok, you definitely do know more about setting up a CNC than I do. I've never owned one, but I find them fascinating. Can a CNC-milled wood or aluminum, or acrylic case allow for a .001 margin of error, or does that mean a desktop CNC won't work for us?

EDIT: the drag-knife attachment I was talking about is here (well one of them anyway): http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cut-Sign-Vinyl-Drag-Knife-Bit-for-CNC-Router-End-Mill-/230323725652

It's just a point that sort of self-orients as it's positioned over vinyl, cardboard, etc. That might conceivably put cardboard scoring into our grasp.

The real scary part here is that I am a high school drop out and I really don't know crap about CNC.  I do however work as a millwright which means I do know about a lot of different machinery and how to setup, install, repair, remove and replace machinery and parts on said machines.  I have worked in manufacturing facilities ranging from grain handling facilities to nuclear power houses working on the actual turbine.  That gets a little intense when you are setting a 216,000 pound rotor back in the bearing journals and you have about 0.005" tolerance from the shaft to the bearing face. 

So, back to the question at hand.  While those desktop CNC setups look nice I don't feel like they would preform that well for a couple of reasons.  While they may have upgraded the bearings and the housing with keeping a .00025" step in the position it is still just a plastic housing for a generic dremel tool on top of being a keyless chuck.  While I don't think that .001" would mess up a keyboard case, I don't see this having the torque in the motor to get a case turned out that quickly.  If even at all due to overheating the motor.  I know the one in my dremel gets pretty warm fairly quickly.  Also another thing that will be affecting accuracy would the torque in the positioning motors.  It says it can hold 2kg/cm.  that really isn't a whole lot.  I have torqued aluminum phillips head screws that tight when I was working on Seahawks in the Navy.  So when it gets to a corner and changes direction if it doesn't wait at the corner for a touch it may not have actually gotten the bit exactly where you wanted it to go so as you work your way down milling out the block you might be able to see a step pattern in the wall.  For a 60% case this probably wouldn't even be seen. 

On top of all this the small one that you posted in this comment wouldn't even be large enough for a TKL case.  Max table travel is listed at 13 inches.  Reason being alphas are 15 units wide plus 3 units for the navigation block comes up to 13.5 inches and that is with the navigation block being right next to the alphanumerics.  So this would really only work for 60% and 75% boards and the like.

By all means not trying to burst your bubble just saying what I am seeing.  Also I wouldn't even try and mill any type of metals on this.  I have a feeling that it would just burn the spindle motor out or burn up the bits.  I noticed that minimum RPM is listed at 5.000 RPM.  At these RPM you will be melting plastic or running so fast that the finish on the cut will be very noticeable.  And with switch plates don't forget that Cherry calls for +/-0.002" and a max radius in the corners of .012"  This would be a TON of filing corners out by hand.

When I was in high school (graduation year was supposed to be 2000) we did have two table top CNC mills and three table top CNC lathes.  Those were actual CNC vertical mills but I have no idea what the name on them were and the programming was all point to point. 

From what I can see for this setup about the most you might want to do with it would be some etching and or engraving into woods, plastics, or possible some very light metal engraving.

Please take this all with a grain of salt.  I am not an expert at all I just have a good mechanical knowledge. 

[mkawa]

yah, if you've been following my wildly scattered train of though posts all over the forum, i'm working on a complete "learn to solder kit" with edsyn.

[mkawa]

Either way we need to consider that this is going to be in an apartment.  Not the kind of setting for a half ton machine sitting on a 3'x3' base.  Chances are the floor won't be able to support that kind of point loading.

The one kawa is looking at (and the one I suggested) are both tabletop CNCs, nowhere near half a ton.

Hence why the mill that kawa posted about at the begenning of this thread had such a small table.  Another thing to consider with these mills is that to keep the tolerances as tight as what we want them to be the mill needs to be anchorded to the floor in such a way to induce as little vibration from outside sources as possible.  A somewhat loaded semi hitting a pothole outside the building could possible be enough to through a .001 tolerance right out the window.

Is a .001 going to sink the usefulness of the mill, for what we want to do with it? Presumably this is why the really large CNC machines (the ones we're not discussing, since they cost in the tens of thousands of dollars) weigh what they do -- to reduce vibration. The CNC I researched has specs here: http://www.mydiycnc.com/content/mydiycnc-desktop-cnc-machine -- Melvang, you definitely seem to know more about this than I do. How does this CNC look to you?

On top of the fact that it should also be as close to level as feasibly possible.  This does not mean setting a 2' carpenters level on the bed and calling it good.  I am talking about using a machinist's level like the one I have in my precision box that has a graduated precision ground vial that has graduations marked out at .005" error per foot.  And this is the most common graduation they make.  For the truly precise in leveling this is what you need.  Granted this is an $800 level.  Problem with this is that unless you have a very think concrete floor (excess of 6" thick) this can't really be maintained.

Ok, you definitely do know more about setting up a CNC than I do. I've never owned one, but I find them fascinating. Can a CNC-milled wood or aluminum, or acrylic case allow for a .001 margin of error, or does that mean a desktop CNC won't work for us?

EDIT: the drag-knife attachment I was talking about is here (well one of them anyway): http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cut-Sign-Vinyl-Drag-Knife-Bit-for-CNC-Router-End-Mill-/230323725652

It's just a point that sort of self-orients as it's positioned over vinyl, cardboard, etc. That might conceivably put cardboard scoring into our grasp.

The real scary part here is that I am a high school drop out and I really don't know crap about CNC.  I do however work as a millwright which means I do know about a lot of different machinery and how to setup, install, repair, remove and replace machinery and parts on said machines.  I have worked in manufacturing facilities ranging from grain handling facilities to nuclear power houses working on the actual turbine.  That gets a little intense when you are setting a 216,000 pound rotor back in the bearing journals and you have about 0.005" tolerance from the shaft to the bearing face. 

So, back to the question at hand.  While those desktop CNC setups look nice I don't feel like they would preform that well for a couple of reasons.  While they may have upgraded the bearings and the housing with keeping a .00025" step in the position it is still just a plastic housing for a generic dremel tool on top of being a keyless chuck.  While I don't think that .001" would mess up a keyboard case, I don't see this having the torque in the motor to get a case turned out that quickly.  If even at all due to overheating the motor.  I know the one in my dremel gets pretty warm fairly quickly.  Also another thing that will be affecting accuracy would the torque in the positioning motors.  It says it can hold 2kg/cm.  that really isn't a whole lot.  I have torqued aluminum phillips head screws that tight when I was working on Seahawks in the Navy.  So when it gets to a corner and changes direction if it doesn't wait at the corner for a touch it may not have actually gotten the bit exactly where you wanted it to go so as you work your way down milling out the block you might be able to see a step pattern in the wall.  For a 60% case this probably wouldn't even be seen. 

On top of all this the small one that you posted in this comment wouldn't even be large enough for a TKL case.  Max table travel is listed at 13 inches.  Reason being alphas are 15 units wide plus 3 units for the navigation block comes up to 13.5 inches and that is with the navigation block being right next to the alphanumerics.  So this would really only work for 60% and 75% boards and the like.

By all means not trying to burst your bubble just saying what I am seeing.  Also I wouldn't even try and mill any type of metals on this.  I have a feeling that it would just burn the spindle motor out or burn up the bits.  I noticed that minimum RPM is listed at 5.000 RPM.  At these RPM you will be melting plastic or running so fast that the finish on the cut will be very noticeable.  And with switch plates don't forget that Cherry calls for +/-0.002" and a max radius in the corners of .012"  This would be a TON of filing corners out by hand.

When I was in high school (graduation year was supposed to be 2000) we did have two table top CNC mills and three table top CNC lathes.  Those were actual CNC vertical mills but I have no idea what the name on them were and the programming was all point to point. 

From what I can see for this setup about the most you might want to do with it would be some etching and or engraving into woods, plastics, or possible some very light metal engraving.

Please take this all with a grain of salt.  I am not an expert at all I just have a good mechanical knowledge. 

i have had an extensive conversation with the shopmaster at sherline and that is what he recommends his machines for. he does NOT recommend his machines for large cuts, period. they are very precise small cut machines.

[mkawa]

so there's a pretty good current deal on a full replicator 2 via autodesk. you get 3 rolls of PLA and you get makercare, which allows makerbot customer service to give me even more free parts than they already do.

http://www.123dapp.com/education

however, neither i nor geeckers has the cash for this right now. this would require a donation drive to afford. however, it would be convertible between a rep2x and a rep2 depending on our whims (yes, that is how many extra parts i have), and would make it that much easier for me to get parts out of MBI customer service. further, it would ensure that one printer was always working and significantly increase throughput during the rare times when nothing is broken.

powdercoating is not going to happen for large parts in my apartment regularly anytime soon. my girlfriend was NOT HAPPY about the idea of a blast cabinet in here, no matter how small or sealed it is. secretly, i picked up a small high-tech washdown box (using my own personal budget) so that i can slowly work on refinishing the panavises i have, and eventually maybe possibly powder or paint them, and just in general to contain the dust of all the machining i do in here, but a full on blast cabinet AND a powder cabinet AND a convection oven dedicated to firing powders is not going to happen.

hell, every time i mention the welder, she gets The Look. the cabinet causes a full-on freakout.

sorry guys. bot or bust.

[Krogenar]

I love the idea of GH having it's own shopbot or replicator. Its looks like these things can cut (with some preparation) a lot of different materials, including vinyl -- which would mean masking for painting, and decals. Binge pointed out that wood can be used for casting purposes, so I think a 'bot would be awesome.

I'm just wracking my brain to think of salable things that such a machine could make -- keychains, keycap adapters, perhaps an actual case?

Kawa, I also get the The Look when I flock my keycaps -- I have a six-month-old daughter who my wife is sure is inhaling the flocking fibers. Thank God for my garage.

[CPTBadAss]

Its looks like these things can cut (with some preparation) a lot of different materials, including vinyl -- which would mean masking for painting, and decals.

You can swap different tools into the Makerbot head? The 3D printers I'm familiar with only do 3D printing, whether it's SLA, SLS, or FDM. In other words the head cannot accept a cutting tool, whether it be a bit or a blade.

I'm sure you *could* swap tools into the heads on the machines I've seen, since 3D printers are essentially CNC mills with a different head, but not without a bit of modding. Does the Makerbot head allow for swapping like that?

[JPG]

Its looks like these things can cut (with some preparation) a lot of different materials, including vinyl -- which would mean masking for painting, and decals.

You can swap different tools into the Makerbot head? The 3D printers I'm familiar with only do 3D printing, whether it's SLA, SLS, or FDM. In other words the head cannot accept a cutting tool, whether it be a bit or a blade.

I'm sure you *could* swap tools into the heads on the machines I've seen, since 3D printers are essentially CNC mills with a different head, but not without a bit of modding. Does the Makerbot head allow for swapping like that?

It probably does, but only if you are named mkawa. Else, it's probably a pain! (no experience here, just speculating that kawa will find a way to do it anyway if he really wants to do it, and will break 10 zillion parts doing it)

[Krogenar]

Its looks like these things can cut (with some preparation) a lot of different materials, including vinyl -- which would mean masking for painting, and decals.

You can swap different tools into the Makerbot head? The 3D printers I'm familiar with only do 3D printing, whether it's SLA, SLS, or FDM. In other words the head cannot accept a cutting tool, whether it be a bit or a blade.

I'm sure you *could* swap tools into the heads on the machines I've seen, since 3D printers are essentially CNC mills with a different head, but not without a bit of modding. Does the Makerbot head allow for swapping like that?

I'm thinking of the ShopBot. No idea about the MakerBot. I'd rather see GH have a subtractive machine, than additive. Whenever I go to shows the resulting prints always look... well, pieced together. The subtractive machines are more mature. And that means more of them are out there for an after market! But they're probably harder to keep in your apartment (suction to pull away dust, etc.)

[CPTBadAss]

Additive machining will always look rough and pieced together until you do post processing to it. That's just the nature of how the machines work. The replicator mkawa mentioned is a 3D additive machine.

I thought we already ruled out the subtractive machines since that's a CNC mill machine along the lines of a Sherline that mkawa talked about before. But I don't really know anything about the ShopBot at all.

[Melvang]

When I was in high school we had 3 vertical mills and 2 lathes set up for cnc but these were older and the programming for what you wanted to make was all point to point.  but they were fairly well built and looked just like a full size but smaller.  I might be able to do a little digging and see if I can find something similar.  I did see a bridgeport style CNC mill that looked like it could be table mounted (stout table required) but the price was just under $10k.

[Krogenar]

I did see a bridgeport style CNC mill that looked like it could be table mounted (stout table required) but the price was just under $10k.

Yeah, the ShopBot, new, is in the 6k-7k range -- probably out of our range, but maybe a used one would be? No matter what machine you get, I think having a fund is a good idea. When a good deal comes around, we can have the money to pounce.

EDIT:

Additive machining will always look rough and pieced together until you do post processing to it. That's just the nature of how the machines work. The replicator mkawa mentioned is a 3D additive machine.

What kind of post-processing? Sanding? I won't deny that the additive machines are awesome; it just looks like subtractive might have more applications.

[CPTBadAss]

Melvang, we had old Bridgeport mills and lathes retrofitted with a computer to do CNC work in college. I liked those machines a lot.

Krogenar, sanding and acetone can make the parts look and feel smoother. That's what we do at work occasionally when we break something by accident on a part.

What can subtractive do that additive can't? You mentioned stickers/vinyl cutting but I'm interested in what else you had in mind. I think that additive would be fine for most of the projects (prototyping caps, cases, making MX to Alps adapters) that Geekhackers would want.

[Krogenar]

What can subtractive do that additive can't? You mentioned stickers/vinyl cutting but I'm interested in what else you had in mind. I think that additive would be fine for most of the projects (prototyping caps, cases, making MX to Alps adapters) that Geekhackers would want.

I've seen YouTube videos of a ShopBot cutting cardboard with a drag knife attachment:

Vinyl cutting:

-- think stickers, masking for painting.
Wood:

-- for prototyping.

Additive seems trickier (gotta keep the additive material at a precise temperature) because (correct me if I'm wrong) the process is a lot newer. Additive would probably be much, much better at completely 3D output -- like a diamond shape, something that starts narrows, bulges, and then becomes narrow again. Subtractive looks like it could fit the skill set we've already got. Cardboard cutting could allow us to make prototype cases, or even storage boxes -- and cardboard is frickin' everywhere. Subtractive also seems faster -- the additive machines seem to run for hours and produce a single key fob. Which is fine if you're going to then sand down the prototype, soak it in acetone, and then send it off to a major manufacturer to be duplicated. The subtractive ShopBot (or some other CNC) could do this, but also make real products to sell (stickers, cardboard shapes, wooden cases perhaps).

I'm not an expert at all -- I have never run a CNC machine personally; I'm just looking at what's out there. The people who are actually making cases and designing circuit boards know better what would give them the most bang for the buck. I also wonder about how best to fund it. If we could think of a product that the ShopBot (or whatever you guys decide to get) can easily produce, then maybe a groupbuy for that product with Kickstarter-like sponsorships available, would be possible.

Let's say the device costs $3000 (used) -- if 100 people give $30, we're nearly there. So let's say we sell wooden cases that can be routed out by the device -- charge $30+ for it, try to get 100 people (or 100 items sold) and people who chip in more will get it personalized, or perhaps they'll get priority on the production line-up? I would grandfathering in the people who (prior to this GB/machine buy) have already contributed a lot. Their projects should be prioritized regardless of how much they donate at the time of the groupbuy. Again, I'm just thinking out loud -- I've never run a groupbuy, maybe this is a horrible idea.

[Krogenar]

This one is surprising, ShopBot desktop making a circuit board:

I don't know if that's even particularly useful to GH, though.

[mkawa]

circuit boards are best made by pcbwing or another pcb house. higher quality. no fiberglass dust to clean up, etc.

shopbots need a shop to sit in. even the desktop version, which is the one that _only_ costs 10k. a real shopbot costs like 40k and needs a dedicated shop. ideally you buy a couple. at that point you might as well just buy a 3-axis bridgeport. your tolerances are going to be much better with the bridgeport, which matters quite a bit when you're using a 40-100k tool.

we already have an additive machine. yes, they all break a lot, but so do cheap subtractive machines. you can easily break a tool per part you produce. robots are just finicky things. this is why my feeling is to double down on one technology that i've invested a huge amount of time into and know well rather than hopping around trying to learn 15 new tooling ecosystems when the maker community on the forum has no concrete usage for any of them, or could use a single one of them perfectly well given that they know they're not aiming at a moving target.

any other weird technologies that i play with, such as experimenting with a small sherline (probably a lathe) and building a bot controller from scratch, will be with my own personal fun budget and not with geeckers money. geeckers money is all about supporting the forum, everything from people just learning to solder custom boards together, to people who are cadding or sculpting entirely new things that we're not even sure exactly what to do with yet. the best way to do this is to provide tooling that i know well and can provide support for. hence, my feeling is that i either continue using the geeckers money to buy things that people want buy have to be bought in bulk to get good pricing, such as PCBs, small hand tools, packaging materials and tooling, etc. OR if we want more manufacturing tech, we take the thing i know well, bots, and we expand on it. subtractive bots are not something i know well, and they are a huge mess (literally). i don't see being able to get one up to production level anytime soon, so my feeling is that it's not a good use of funds.

i know the makerbot additive designs like the back of my hand and have a very good relationship with MBI, so i would feel quite comfortable putting more money into their tooling, either a scanner (for bridging the gap between CAD and hand sculpting) or another extrusion bot (which i have so many parts for, that we have a wide variety of choices of materials and build types this second bot could be setup for). there are less expensive variants of the makerbot products that i would probably be comfortable with too; the makerfarm machines, ultimakers, etc. the rostock machines i'm not crazy about from a design perspective, but we could take a look at them.

[Krogenar]

i know the makerbot additive designs like the back of my hand and have a very good relationship with MBI, so i would feel quite comfortable putting more money into their tooling, either a scanner (for bridging the gap between CAD and hand sculpting) or another extrusion bot (which i have so many parts for, that we have a wide variety of choices of materials and build types this second bot could be setup for). there are less expensive variants of the makerbot products that i would probably be comfortable with too; the makerfarm machines, ultimakers, etc. the rostock machines i'm not crazy about from a design perspective, but we could take a look at them.

Ok, so additive -- what about upgrading the software for it?

[mkawa]

if by that you mean writing my own software, then the only thing i can really tell you is that i talk semi-regularly with dcnewman, who wrote a fair amount of the firmware that the MBI mightyboard firmware is based on, and that he is working on a new firmware based on rtlinux (which i have issues with, but that's for him and i and jetty and some other fellow to argue about, you don't need to be involved) using a more modern MCU platform or an x86-based gp processor. that said, there are just fundamental error components that are not reducible to zero in the action of any bot. don't get me wrong, there are huge gains to be made by re-engineering the embedded software and hardware end, but you can't exactly duplicate any CAD solid with any manufacturing technology, period, so that's not really an acceptable goal; we'll just never get there, and then we'll all be sad.

finally, if you just want to get cardboard cut, you're probably best off with an x-acto knife, seriously. the reason to laser or machine cut cardboard is to decrease cycle times, not to increase precision. working slowly with a knife in one's hand is still the best way to make cuts in thin soft materials.

[sprit]

I Love this Plan!
A CNC ready Tool, Custom powdercoat...   Wunderbar! 

[mistakemistake]

anodizing equipment is out of the question. there isn't going to be a gigantic boiling tank of sulfuric acid in my apartment, period. besides, custom color anodizing is _IMPOSSIBLE_. booting an anodizing tub which is like 20 gallons of stainless steel full of sulfuric acid, putting enough dye in to penetrate a single case, hanging the case, then going away for a while, then coming back, cleaning out the ENTIRE TANK FULL OF BOILING SULFURIC ACID FOR ONE KEYBOARD is completely ridiculous. the fact that mimic actually did this (note that his price included a freaking round trip planet ticket) makes it even more hilarious, and impossible.

you can "anodize" polymers and other weird stuff but what really happens is that you etch the polymer in one stage (a boiling 20+ gallon tub of some kind of acidic etchant), charge and plate it with a friendly metal in the next (two choices: two alloys exist for this, one is chrome and the other has more zinc in it). THEN, you might be able to get a tiny bit of dye onto the plating but you're probably best giving up there. it's a technology that was developed in the 40s-ish i want to say? the edsyn guys have a company that does it for the silverstat, but they literally run one batch a year of like a thousand pieces and that's it. one-off anodizing is basically something that people just hang up on you when you mention because it's such a pain in the ass.

ironically, you can powdercoat those chromed polymers, because they conduct really well after the metallization process. most conductive polymers are a lot tougher to powder. that said, you can metallize them the old fashioned way, with the metallized rustoleum primer (although i imagine it's non-ferrous; there has to be one of those things that's conductive..). the thing with polymers though is that they just come in different colors. you're much much better off just making your polymer thing in the color you want.

anyway, for metal, powdercoating is the most flexible permanent-ish painting process and the only one other than large batch clear anodize or one color anodize that's within reach for us. the only thing more accessible is the exact same room temp wet acrylic paints that photoelectric uses for plastics, and just like plastics, you have to do a lot of really good prep-work (you still need the blasting cabinet for example) to get good results. imo, if you're going to go through that much trouble, you might as well powder it. you have a wider variety of texture, reflectivity, and color, for the most part.

anyway, the reason i was leaning toward coloring processes is that we love to be creative with color here. what's the difference between every keycap set? basically color schemes. there are shape and material differences, but the primary driver in differentiation is color. see: unicorn vomit, clicklack skulls, lz and hammer's alu cases, etc. that said, notice that people had to sit down and design the stuff to color in all cases. my goal is to serve the community, and i'd like that not to mean "let me try to guess what the community will use" , but a bit fat active conversation with everyone with arguments and keyboard baby mama drama (thank mrs hashbaz for that one by the way), all of it. let's go! what do you want? just because i smack you down with "no, that will cost 100,000$, doesn't mean you can't try again or shoot another toward the moon.

hell, shooting the moon is what this place is for. have you seen matt3o's qfr top cover project yet? if not, GO GO GO. SO AWESOME YES

pricing doesn't include round trip ticket   i just only have to opportunity to anodize when i'm back home in arizona.

[swill]

I was just thinking that if its truly a beginner's kit, maybe soldering four switches is less intimidating than twenty.

Oh absolutely -- and more affordable. Call it the 'Level 0 Keyboard Maker Kit' -- and it would be small enough to route out several at once.
I have no idea if that's feasible, though -- just an idea. It would be cool if you could program it to launch four applications. Or make one of the keys a function key, so six applications/macros/whatever.

Krogenar
Level 1 in "Making"
Level 100 in "Conjecturing Wildly"

I think this is actually a great idea. We design a little 4x5 numpad PCB kit with the (ATmega32U4) controller presoldered and preprogrammed. All the corresponding electronics are through-hole and would be included in the kit. Also, PCB-mount switches would be provided in the kit. For the true beginner, have everything but the switches soldered already. For a little bit more advanced kit, the builder would have to solder the through-hole resistors, capacitors, USB connector, etc.

Sometimes, soldering ~4 switches just isn't enough practice. You need to get into a groove, and by the time you've soldered that 20th switch in place, you've gotten there.

No need to include a case. This would make a great little kit for a beginner, and in the end you have something you built which you can actually use. Throw some keycaps on it, place it on a mat of some kind, and you're running your self built numpad.

I am actually looking forward to the GHpad because I feel like it is small enough to feel manageable as a first project, but results in something awesome that you can continue to mod and build cases for.

[regack]

I was just thinking that if its truly a beginner's kit, maybe soldering four switches is less intimidating than twenty.

Oh absolutely -- and more affordable. Call it the 'Level 0 Keyboard Maker Kit' -- and it would be small enough to route out several at once.
I have no idea if that's feasible, though -- just an idea. It would be cool if you could program it to launch four applications. Or make one of the keys a function key, so six applications/macros/whatever.

Krogenar
Level 1 in "Making"
Level 100 in "Conjecturing Wildly"

I think this is actually a great idea. We design a little 4x5 numpad PCB kit with the (ATmega32U4) controller presoldered and preprogrammed. All the corresponding electronics are through-hole and would be included in the kit. Also, PCB-mount switches would be provided in the kit. For the true beginner, have everything but the switches soldered already. For a little bit more advanced kit, the builder would have to solder the through-hole resistors, capacitors, USB connector, etc.

Sometimes, soldering ~4 switches just isn't enough practice. You need to get into a groove, and by the time you've soldered that 20th switch in place, you've gotten there.

No need to include a case. This would make a great little kit for a beginner, and in the end you have something you built which you can actually use. Throw some keycaps on it, place it on a mat of some kind, and you're running your self built numpad.

I am actually looking forward to the GHpad because I feel like it is small enough to feel manageable as a first project, but results in something awesome that you can continue to mod and build cases for.

I'll just leave this here:



Seriously though, this seems a good a place as any to do a dump of some stuff I had floating around in my head...
- The Teensy is commonly used because it's easy to get, does the job and is pretty simple to integrate
- The Teensy isn't really ideal for use in a lot of projects because of it's size (wait, what?)

You can fit one under a PCB, but it's awkward and takes up a lot of vertical space (9.6mm):

Show Image

Now, I'm not trying to force anyone into something and corner a market, but I'd love to see something like this made:

Show Image

Show Image

- ATMEGA32u4 in QFN packaging with 0402 components
- 40 position low-profile 0.50mm pitch header connector with 3mm board-to-board spacing
- 31.6mm x 8.9mm - now that's small
- It's a 4 layer board unfortunately - that said, even at OSHPark pricing they're only $1.50 each

The low profile connector is so you can mount that tiny little thing between rows under a PCB without using up valuable case-space, and at the same time be able to remove it... and swap it between projects... You just can't do that easily with a Teensy, and not at all if the controller parts are embedded on the board.

Use the controller to learn how to put together a working 3x2 test board.
Then go and build yourself a 4x5 or 4x6 keypad and move the controller there.

Gain confidence from that, buy another controller and build a 40% board.
But the 40% is too small for you, and you build a 60% board or DataDox and move the controller there.


There's nothing wrong with putting the components directly onto the PCB, it's what any manufactured keyboard would do... well, except for maybe the Race... which has a daughterboard, but that's not the point I'm trying to make. 

Personally, I like modularity, and I like the idea of being able to upgrade/change controllers in the future just by designing a new board, so long as it has the matching connector.  I like the idea pulling the controller out of a project I'm bored/done with and swap it into something new. 

Modularity also affords the possibility of creating different breakout boards to do different things.  This is a basic one that allows for programing, or just playing with it like a Teensy.  This breakout has 2.54mm holes/pins, options for MICRO or MINI usb, and a reset switch:

Show Image

I'm not advocating that there has to be some kind of 'standard' controller, options are great and should always be there.  I personally am not about to try to start a business to produce something like this, I might see how much it would cost to get some made for me... no way I'm soldering 0402 components and a QFN package controller.  It would be even bettter if it became a community driven effort to create a GeekHack Universal Controller... but who would hold onto extra stock?

Anyway, I'm done with my brain dump, pitch and threadcrap, you can all go about your business.

[jdcarpe]

It would be even bettter if it became a community driven effort to create a GeekHack Universal Controller... but who would hold onto extra stock?

I'm all for this. It's funny that you posted that here, because I've been thinking for a while now that instead of purchasing Teensys, we need to have a Geekhack branded breakout board for the standard controller/electronics that we are putting onto all these new keyboard designs. It just makes sense that, instead of having everything soldered to the PCB, you have a standard pinout to use, and a controller that plugs into that pinout. The Teensy is limited in that is doesn't provide breakout pins for the USB connection. If you want to use the USB connector on the board, you have to use a kludge and "jumper" it, so to speak. As long as the matrix pinout is standardized, we could have 32U2, 32U4, or 32A controllers on the GH controller daughterboard, it doesn't really matter. I don't know if it HAS to be QFN and 0402 packaging, because that is really small to solder by hand.

[regack]

It would be even bettter if it became a community driven effort to create a GeekHack Universal Controller... but who would hold onto extra stock?

I'm all for this. It's funny that you posted that here, because I've been thinking for a while now that instead of purchasing Teensys, we need to have a Geekhack branded breakout board for the standard controller/electronics that we are putting onto all these new keyboard designs. It just makes sense that, instead of having everything soldered to the PCB, you have a standard pinout to use, and a controller that plugs into that pinout. The Teensy is limited in that is doesn't provide breakout pins for the USB connection. If you want to use the USB connector on the board, you have to use a kludge and "jumper" it, so to speak. As long as the matrix pinout is standardized, we could have 32U2, 32U4, or 32A controllers on the GH controller daughterboard, it doesn't really matter. I don't know if it HAS to be QFN and 0402 packaging, because that is really small to solder by hand.

Well, I have another design that uses the TQFP44 package and 0805 components, but the controller gets much bigger.  Actually, the only reason the one above is 31mm long is because I put all the components on 1 side of the board, so that it might be less expensive/complicated to have manufactured.

I thought it might also be good to have an AT90USB1286 based controller as well (for larger layouts) but that would require a 60position mezzanine connector instead of the 40 pin one. 

[MOZ]

The work regack has been doing on PCB design and universal controller front is nothing short of amazing, I've been real lucky to work closely with him and it has been great!

[xavierblak]

Regarding universal controllers I figured I'd point to the fact that bpiphany is also working on one. See at the bottom of this post for details and this post for photos.