Author Topic: [IC] "Wraith" - Matias TKL (optional backlight, aluminum case)  (Read 24323 times)

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Offline c137

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[IC] "Wraith" - Matias TKL (optional backlight, aluminum case)
« on: Fri, 26 September 2014, 18:49:01 »
Hi there!

This is an interest check for an optionally backlit tenkeyless keyboard with Matias switches - we codenamed it the "Wraith".

The idea came up in the German community around the Computerbase.de forum and Mecha-Blog.de from "hey, those switches already are transparent, but there is no actual keyboard with them with backlight".
At first the plan included PBT keycaps, but Alps compatible ones are really expensive to make. Various layouts and features have been discussed so far and I have been giving frequent feedback to Steve McGowan at Matias.

The proposed features are:
  • Optional RGB backlight
  • Linked to that: two analog dials, one each for brightness and color
  • Dual-layer PCB
  • Steel plate (switches can be opened without deattaching/desoldering them)
  • Detachable braided cable
  • 10KRO over USB
  • Alps-inspired Matias switches, either Quiet, Click or Linear
  • (Black) coated/lasered ABS keycaps of high quality
  • (Black) matte polycarbonate case
  • optional ("silvery") aluminum case
  • Easily detachable controller OR (if enough interest) version without controller, for the people who like to have a Teensy etc.

How about price?
The version with polycarbonate case would be ~$180.
The aluminum case would add ~$120-150.

Of course there would be margins of quantity (MOQs) to beat:
The main issue is the quorum of ca. 200 for the keyboard per se to happen, that is for each layout (ANSI or ISO). Additional ISO languages would probably require ca. 100 orders.
The aluminum case would require about 100 orders to be priced reasonably.
Per switch variant (Quiet, Click or Linear) the MOQ would be about 100.

The design is going to be more rectangular than the most previous keyboards by Matias. The analog dials for brightness and colors (something that hasn't been done before) would probably be mounted vertically on the left side of the keyboard in order not to interfere with e.g. seperate wrist rests. My idea of designing them would be inspired by old phones' rotary dials, not protruding too far to avoid accidental activations.
Activated caps lock or scroll lock would be indicated by an additional light in a fashion quite similar to how it is being done on present Matias keyboards.
Any version of the case would feature rubberized feet, the two of them in the back expandable allowing a steeper angle.
The LEDs would be RGB ones, though all the keys would have to be at the same color and brightness at the same time.

As for layout, here are some suggestions that have been quite popular so far (pictues show ISO variant):

Most popular layout so far (I guess): (pictures in ISO, also available in ANSI):
This means we can use the more popular 6.25u spacebar + 1.25u mods. The PCB would be fully Cherry compatible as well.
x87-ANSI__F1-above-Q__6_25spacebar79955-0

x88-ISO__F1-above-Q__6_25spacebar79957-1

Older suggestions:
More
x88-DE__F1-above-2) same as 88b_c137/Jesterfox (Fn bindings can be discussed separetely):
78428-2

x88-DE__F1-above-Q) similar, but with gap between F12 and print screen:
78430-3

103a) Compact but almost 100%. Basically unanimously dismissed in the German forums.
78155-4

91b) F1 is directly above 2.
78147-5

91c) More even spacing in the F-row
78149-6

91b_Orson) A modification by a forum user. Unfortunately, this would double the tooling costs, adding about $30 per keyboard to the polycarbonate version and $80-$100 for the aluminum version.
78151-7


88b_c137/Jesterfox) Keeping the much used loudness keys and being more ANSI friendly.
78153-8

These layouts, variants, changes and combinations are open for discussion.


The whole board would be developed, tested, certified (FCC, CE etc.), manufactured and shipped entirely by Matias Corporation. The estimated time frame from group buy order to delivery is 6 to 24 months, probably 12.
The quality of the keycaps is going to be noticably higher than on iOne backlit keyboards. Unfortunately, PBT proved to be to expensive for Alps mount (>$500 per keyboard).
Matias is going to present their advancements regularly. Of course, before that on the IC a majority would have to decide on the design (layout, analog dials etc.).

OK, I hope I have laid this out straightforward enough. Naturally, questions and comments are welcome.


Disclaimer: the prices given are in US Dollars and estimated for reference by Matias Corp based on their knowledge and experience and thus subject to change.
I know that I am not very active on this forum, but you won't be giving me any money, the whole group buy would entirely be processed by Matias Corp (only import tax/customs would be left to the buyers if and where applicable).



Update 30/9/2014:
Matias Corp has approved the 88b_Jesterfox layout as most probably without additional tooling cost. They also have provided an alternative based on the 91c layout (see above).

In addition to that, there is the definite possibility of a non-backlit version (!), which would be about $20-$30 cheaper (my estimate).
Also, their message is, that the MOQs aren't to be taken soooo seriously. They are basically still valid, but not that rigid. So, for the whole project the MOQ is still at about 200, but for the backlit version combined with the non-backlit. Per version still ~100 probably.

More good news: The controller can be made easily removable to accommodate fully programmable alternatives such as a Teensy.

Update 10/16/2014
Matias has confirmed that a larger space bar and 1.25U modifiers are available. (design pictures see above)

As has been stated before, the design will be rather rectangular and slim, pretty similar in design language to the Matias 60%.
Oh, and the linear switch actually has a leaf.

Fn bindings have also been disussed. The result can be seen above (in the F1-above-Q__6_25spacebar variants), play/pause would be on Fn+space.
« Last Edit: Thu, 16 October 2014, 17:19:33 by c137 »
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Offline Heliosphere

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - RGB backlit Matias TKL with aluminum case, analog dials
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 26 September 2014, 19:06:09 »
I'm interested in ANSI for clicky or silent switches. Unfortunately the price and MOQ are rather high so I'm a bit skeptical if this will go through.

Offline exitfire401

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - RGB backlit Matias TKL with aluminum case, analog dials
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 26 September 2014, 19:12:31 »
I'd be interested in one ansi with clicky switches with the standard bottom row, but I'm also skeptical with this high of an MOQ
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Offline dante

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - RGB backlit Matias TKL with aluminum case, analog dials
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 26 September 2014, 19:20:14 »
Not interested.  Make this instead:


Offline c137

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - RGB backlit Matias TKL with aluminum case, analog dials
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 26 September 2014, 19:22:00 »
Yes, I know the MOQ is pretty steep.
I think Matias isn't that strict on this matter but you can't expect them to work at a loss, even though they probably would continue to sell the Wraith (under a more standard name) in their shop.

As for the price, yeah, well, I see your point. But considering the prices for keyboards here in Europe it's actually not expensive at all (180€ for a Novatouch, that's $230, and that's a rather fair price difference).

Quote from: exitfire401
standard bottom row
I am a bit unsure, so what layout version would that be?

Make this instead:
Different layout? "The group" would only have to agree on one, those up there are just suggestions.
I personally wouldn't get a keyboard without a Windows key. (That's part of the reasons why I sold my Model M.)

As for a space between the right control key and the left arrow key: be aware that this would induce the mentioned increase in price, because another form would be required to make a two-part case.

----------------
I personally would prefer ISO-DE, but it's unlikely to make the MOQ.
So I'd be in for an ANSI (I like the "88b_J"-Design the most) with Quiet switches and aluminum case.
« Last Edit: Sat, 27 September 2014, 05:06:20 by c137 »
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Offline exitfire401

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - RGB backlit Matias TKL with aluminum case, analog dials
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 26 September 2014, 19:28:15 »
Quote from: exitfire401
standard bottom row
I am a bit unsure, so what layout version would that be?

----------------
I personally would prefer ISO-DE, but it's unlikely to make the MOQ.
So I'd be in for an ANSI (I like the "J"-Design the most) with Quiet switches and aluminum case.
[/quote]

Basically, i just mean a bottom row like version b or c like you showed in the mockups rather than version a.
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Offline c137

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - RGB backlit Matias TKL with aluminum case, analog dials
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 26 September 2014, 19:32:22 »
Standard depth? I thought so.
As the description already says, most people I discussed this with do not really like the 103a layout. My favorite would be the 91b_J.
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Offline dante

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - RGB backlit Matias TKL with aluminum case, analog dials
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 26 September 2014, 19:34:03 »
Make this instead:
Different layout? "The group" would only have to agree on one, those up there are just suggestions.
I personally wouldn't get a keyboard without a Windows key. (That's part of the reasons why I sold my Model M.)

As for a space between the right control key and the left arrow key: be aware that this would induce the mentioned increase in price, because another form would be required to make a two-part case.

Well it can have OS keys - so a 87 ANSI TKL.  Whatever quantities Matias is selling with the Quiet/Tactile Mini - a traditional ANSI 87 would sell twice as well.

My suggestions is something that mirrors the circa 2010-2012 Filco Zero tenkeyless - just make it basic without a lot of features, make it as thin as possible with side print or blank PBT - and you should meet MOQ fairly rapidly.

And no tweaked weird layout!!

After I receive my 60% Matias GB boards I will get an idea as to how thin he can do this.  Maybe I will run a GB (with Matias help) for a standard 87 ANSI in the future as this is something sorely missing in the marketplace.

Offline c137

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - RGB backlit Matias TKL with aluminum case, analog dials
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 26 September 2014, 19:41:30 »
TBH to me the 91 or 88 type layout seems pretty traditional. To be fair, some spacing is missing.

I would have to ask Steve whether it's possible to have a gap between the F row and the number row without additional tooling/getting more expensive. As for the gap between the QWER-keys and the nav keys: here goes your $30 or $80-100 price increase.
If enough people are ready to pay that premium, of course such a design like 91b_O can be made.
« Last Edit: Fri, 26 September 2014, 20:16:17 by c137 »
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Offline Puddsy

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - RGB backlit Matias TKL with aluminum case, analog dials
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 26 September 2014, 19:47:21 »
Very much interested, but where are we going to source keycaps and stabilizers?

If you mentioned it, I missed it.
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Offline c137

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - RGB backlit Matias TKL with aluminum case, analog dials
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 26 September 2014, 20:15:16 »
Matias would be making the whole thing and deliver it fully assembled.
Basically hence the large MOQ.
« Last Edit: Fri, 26 September 2014, 20:17:17 by c137 »
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Offline Puddsy

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - RGB backlit Matias TKL with aluminum case, analog dials
« Reply #11 on: Fri, 26 September 2014, 20:20:53 »
Matias would be making the whole thing and deliver it fully assembled.
Basically hence the large MOQ.

makes sense, i'm down with that
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Offline engicoder

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - RGB backlit Matias TKL with aluminum case, analog dials
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 26 September 2014, 20:30:49 »
I'd really like a Matias TKL. I don't really care for disco lighting.
   

Offline Elrick

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - RGB backlit Matias TKL with aluminum case, analog dials
« Reply #13 on: Fri, 26 September 2014, 21:28:11 »
I'd really like a Matias TKL. I don't really care for disco lighting.

Same here, PLEASE leave the "disco lighting" alone (for the children at their next party).  For serious keyboard buyers, concentrate ONLY on the essentials then you'll easily make MOQ.

Geekhack should get back to the bare basics because that's why we all joined up in the first place - to escape the 'fancy, nancy, bullsh1t keyboards' to begin with.

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - RGB backlit Matias TKL with aluminum case, analog dials
« Reply #14 on: Fri, 26 September 2014, 22:37:46 »
My suggestions is something that mirrors the circa 2010-2012 Filco Zero tenkeyless - just make it basic without a lot of features, make it as thin as possible with side print or blank PBT - and you should meet MOQ fairly rapidly.

And no tweaked weird layout!!

After I receive my 60% Matias GB boards I will get an idea as to how thin he can do this.  Maybe I will run a GB (with Matias help) for a standard 87 ANSI in the future as this is something sorely missing in the marketplace.

I like the sound of this  :thumb:   Although I would prefer top printed PBT.
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Offline Den441

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - RGB backlit Matias TKL with aluminum case, analog dials
« Reply #15 on: Sat, 27 September 2014, 02:19:39 »
I'm somewhat interested. Matias makes linear ALPS? I would like those. There is also an IC for an SP ALPS keyset in the works. I think if you could team up somehow, you could get more interest. The black SoWare color scheme that is leading that IC would go so well with the black polycarb case. That set also needs a black spacebar as SP does not make ALPS spacebars. Your board happens to have that. Perhaps you could make a deal with the IC runner, Badwrench, to offer his caps as an optional add on to your orders. I think mockups of that set on this keyboard would generate more interest for sure.

I also say keep the RGB if it does not add significant cost. If that is the case, it can be turned off, so I think it is a feature that would get more people interested in the long run. Really needs a color shift mode though, otherwise you might as well add a color option for regular LEDs. Be sure to keep us updated and post more detailed mockups/renders of what the board will look like when everything is decided.
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Offline c137

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - RGB backlit Matias TKL with aluminum case, analog dials
« Reply #16 on: Sat, 27 September 2014, 04:31:23 »
They would do linear switches if enough people ordered them.

Well, those aren't "my" orders. You would order at a special sub-page on Matias' website and pay in advance, then they would make and deliver it fully assembled.
Keycaps should be interchangable of course and everyone could put the Signature Plastics kit on the Wraith.

About the backlight:
I realize many people don't need it or even don't want it. It has been the general starting point of the whole idea and a welcome thought over at the (admittedly smaller) German community, though. While it certainly adds to the cost it's actually not even that bad. You can always leave it off or buy a Matias Mini for instance (well, I guess their layout isn't favored so much).
RGB does not add significant cost over standard one-color LEDs but allows everyone to choose their color (one for the whole board unlike Corsair RGB, because that would be rather unnecessary and vastly expensive). With different singe-color LED versions we would end up at a MOQ of 100-200 per LED color. Besides, if mood and/or user changes afterwards that way the color can be changed.

Edit/Update (see below):
Probably a non-backlit version isn't a mistake.

I'd personally still take the RGB-backlit version with aluminum case, but it's a great option for those people who do not need/want backlight.
« Last Edit: Mon, 29 September 2014, 17:35:05 by c137 »
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Offline dante

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - RGB backlit Matias TKL with aluminum case, analog dials
« Reply #17 on: Sat, 27 September 2014, 06:41:43 »
My suggestions is something that mirrors the circa 2010-2012 Filco Zero tenkeyless - just make it basic without a lot of features, make it as thin as possible with side print or blank PBT - and you should meet MOQ fairly rapidly.

And no tweaked weird layout!!

After I receive my 60% Matias GB boards I will get an idea as to how thin he can do this.  Maybe I will run a GB (with Matias help) for a standard 87 ANSI in the future as this is something sorely missing in the marketplace.

I like the sound of this  :thumb:   Although I would prefer top printed PBT.

I only suggest blank/side print because top printed PBT will likely not be dyesubbed.  Side print will guarantee the legends stay fresh.

Come to think of it ... I could ask Matias if dyesub is even an option(!)

Offline Makami

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - RGB backlit Matias TKL with aluminum case, analog dials
« Reply #18 on: Sat, 27 September 2014, 10:17:38 »
Hi guys, hi c137,

i'm interested in the 88b_c137/Jesterfox with aluminum case or the 91b_Orson with polycarbonate case (aluminium would be to expensive).
But 24 month maybe is way to much for me, waiting one year would be the longest time i would wait.

Have a nice day

Offline c137

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - RGB backlit Matias TKL with aluminum case, analog dials
« Reply #19 on: Sat, 27 September 2014, 10:21:42 »
Given the layout, feature list and design is finalized the timeframe can get more exact.
The safe bet is 12 months, 6 if things go quickly, 24 if they go really awry.
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Offline Puddsy

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - RGB backlit Matias TKL with aluminum case, analog dials
« Reply #20 on: Sat, 27 September 2014, 13:59:34 »
Things always go awry with GBs like this. How awry is up to the people you choose to help you, and the amount of time you dedicate to this.

GBs take a MASSIVE time dedication, so you better be willing to put in the time or people are gonna be unhappy.
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Offline c137

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - RGB backlit Matias TKL with aluminum case, analog dials
« Reply #21 on: Sat, 27 September 2014, 14:36:04 »
Let me make this clear: I will.


What some people obviously tend to overlook is: I won't build this keyboard. I won't buy the parts. I won't ship anything. I won't get any money. At all.

If a sufficient number of people in this interest check (on GH, DT and CB + MB) can decide on one layout (e.g. 88b_Jesterfox) that is supported by a majority, Matias Corporation is going to set up an order page for the actual group buy.
There buyers will order their version of choice (aluminum/polycarbonate, clicky/quiet/linear, maybe even ISO/ANSI) probably some with a fallback option (something like "I would like the ISO-DE with aluminum case and quiet switches, but if ISO doesn't reach MOQ I'll take ANSI instead"). We will pay at this site directly to Matias Corp, via Paypal/credit card/bank transfer.
Then they will finalize the product - while regularly reporting progress to the community -, make all the keyboards ordered and finally ship them to the buyers.

Basically, as soon as the interest check is successful, Matias corp takes over. That means, pros take over, who know their job of making keyboards.
Now, if all the PCB suppliers drowned because of a hurricane or if the price of LEDs would rise 10000% suddenly, then things would go awry. Under normal conditions they can deliver in 12 months or less.


Edit 9/28/2014:
Of course there also is a thread on DT: http://deskthority.net/other-external-f66/wraith-rgb-backlit-matias-tkl-with-aluminum-case-t8830.html

It happens to include:
Quote from: Matias

Sorry to interupt, but I'll just jump in to answer a few questions...



Quote from: Muirium
I like the short space bar, actually. But is there anything to stop us from using 1.25u mods? What Matias constraints should we know about?

1.25u mods require a 6.25u spacebar, which we don't have tooling for.

The only unusual caps on 88b_Jesterfox are the 1.5u Win/Menu/Fn keys and the 4.5u spacebar.  Of course, the 1.5u size is common and we'll be supplying the 4.5u spacebar, so I don't see a problem for future sets to include these.

As an aside, I think the 1.5u mods are aesthetically nicer.  The 1.25u mods have always struck me as stubby looking.



Quote from: c137
From the 60% Matias thread, I assume the same type of controller would be used:
Quote
The keyboard itself will not be programmable, but each key in the Fn layer will have its own unique keycode, which you can capture and assign to a macro on your PC/Mac.  The side benefit of this is that you can assign different macros for different OSes, allowing you to use the same keyboard on multiple OSes, without conflicts.

Yes, it would be the same controller.



Quote from: Muirium
Yeah, not the kind of programmable that we value. A removeable controller would be a plus.

We can do a removable controller if there's space.  Otherwise, we can offer a bare PCB option in the GB, that you could wire/solder to a programmable controller.

Also, if there's interest, we could include spare parts options in the GB -- similar to what we're doing for the 60% keyboard.  For exmaple, you could buy an extra case for painting a different colour, etc.



Quote from: c137
I will also post this here because apparently there is some confusion:
Quote
What some people obviously tend to overlook is: I won't build this keyboard. I won't buy the parts. I won't ship anything. I won't get any money. At all.

If a sufficient number of people in this interest check (on GH, DT and CB + MB) can decide on one layout (e.g. 88b_Jesterfox) that is supported by a majority, Matias Corporation is going to set up an order page for the actual group buy.
There buyers will order their version of choice (aluminum/polycarbonate, clicky/quiet/linear, maybe even ISO/ANSI) probably some with a fallback option (something like "I would like the ISO-DE with aluminum case and quiet switches, but if ISO doesn't reach MOQ I'll take ANSI instead"). We will pay at this site directly to Matias Corp, via Paypal/credit card/bank transfer.
Then they will finalize the product - while regularly reporting progress to the community -, make all the keyboards ordered and finally ship them to the buyers.


Just to add to this, there should be no fear that this project won't get done -- asuming that the MOQ conditions are met.  We've never not finished a project, and we just recently starting doing keyboards in aluminum.  Here's an example of one we recently completed for an old customer of ours...

      http://eshop.macsales.com/item/NewerTech/KPA28BTW

      http://www.newertech.com/images/pr/PR_NTkeypad.jpg

BTW, thanks and credit to c137 (Julian) for leading this GB so enthusiastically.  I hope it goes through.  We designed the switches to support backlight, so I'm eager to see it happen.  Thanks Julian!


 
« Last Edit: Sun, 28 September 2014, 05:10:34 by c137 »
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Offline c137

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - Matias TKL (optional backlight, aluminum case)
« Reply #22 on: Mon, 29 September 2014, 17:19:56 »
Update 30/9/2014:
Matias Corp has approved the 88b_Jesterfox layout as most probably without additional tooling cost. They also have provided an alternative based on the 91c layout (see above).

In addition to that, there is the definite possibility of a non-backlit version (!), which would be about $20-$30 cheaper (my estimate).
Also, their message is, that the MOQs aren't to be taken soooo seriously. They are basically still valid, but not that rigid. So, for the whole project the MOQ is still at about 200, but for the backlit version combined with the non-backlit. Per version still ~100 probably.

More good news: The controller can be made easily removable to accommodate fully programmable alternatives such as a Teensy.

Quote from:  Steve McGowan (Matias Corp)
Because the backlit and non-backlit versions are related, we could accept a lower MOQ for the backlit version if both versions are being done. The exact number depends on the details of what is being made. However, I just wanted to say that we won’t be dogmatic about the MOQ being exactly 200 if the demand is still strong for both versions.


Regarding backlighting in a general sense, I think that backlighting is a helpful feature for many people. Although many people prefer no backlighting, it is still a legitimate preference to want backlighting, and I think it is good that this project is being launched. Because some of the people on the board oppose backlighting, that’s why I think it may be a good idea to do both versions

So, now there are several options in the proposed group buy:
  • RGB backlight with analog dials with suitable keycaps OR non-backlit version with suitable caps
  • Aluminum case OR polycarbonate case
  • Switches: quiet OR clicky OR linear
  • ANSI or ISO

I feel that the probability of an ISO version isn't that high. But the project as a whole can make it, offering choice of switches, backlight and case.
« Last Edit: Mon, 29 September 2014, 17:23:59 by c137 »
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Offline bazemk1979

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - Matias TKL (optional backlight, aluminum case)
« Reply #23 on: Mon, 29 September 2014, 17:44:30 »
price seems good for aluminum board, problem is we will be stuck when it comes to replacing keycaps later on, that's a huge problem when you have nice looking custom board with worn out keycaps, and no possibilities to upgrade. Would love to try out the matias clicky switches, saw videos of them and they sound superb. I might reconsider if at least this GB plans to make the keycaps thick PBT dyesub, maybe 2 tone classic color to give the board nice look.

Saying this cause after shelling $300 for an aluminum board, that is it, no keycaps for it later on..... Will the aluminum boards be full aluminum housing?
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Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - Matias TKL (optional backlight, aluminum case)
« Reply #24 on: Mon, 29 September 2014, 18:25:20 »
I'm interested. Backlit and aluminum case :D

Offline Matias

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - Matias TKL (optional backlight, aluminum case)
« Reply #25 on: Mon, 29 September 2014, 21:52:10 »

price seems good for aluminum board, problem is we will be stuck when it comes to replacing keycaps later on, that's a huge problem when you have nice looking custom board with worn out keycaps, and no possibilities to upgrade. Would love to try out the matias clicky switches, saw videos of them and they sound superb. I might reconsider if at least this GB plans to make the keycaps thick PBT dyesub, maybe 2 tone classic color to give the board nice look.

Saying this cause after shelling $300 for an aluminum board, that is it, no keycaps for it later on..... Will the aluminum boards be full aluminum housing?



Keycaps should not be a problem...

We are designing it to support both our keycaps and those by SP, and will have stabilizers available for both.

We'll also be selling our own keycaps soon, so when the backlit caps need replacing, you'll be able to just buy a set (rather than replace the whole keyboard).



Offline CommonCurt

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - Matias TKL (optional backlight, aluminum case)
« Reply #26 on: Mon, 29 September 2014, 21:58:49 »
maybe 2 tone classic color to give the board nice look.

I agree.

Keycaps should not be a problem...

We are designing it to support both our keycaps and those by SP, and will have stabilizers available for both.

We'll also be selling our own keycaps soon, so when the backlit caps need replacing, you'll be able to just buy a set (rather than replace the whole keyboard).

Will you only be offering keycaps in back or white?
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Offline Matias

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - Matias TKL (optional backlight, aluminum case)
« Reply #27 on: Mon, 29 September 2014, 22:11:49 »
Keycaps should not be a problem...

We are designing it to support both our keycaps and those by SP, and will have stabilizers available for both.

We'll also be selling our own keycaps soon, so when the backlit caps need replacing, you'll be able to just buy a set (rather than replace the whole keyboard).

Will you only be offering keycaps in back or white?


Both colours will be available.  I expect many of the Mac users will want white caps, while most PC users will go for black.



Offline minho

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - Matias TKL (optional backlight, aluminum case)
« Reply #28 on: Mon, 29 September 2014, 23:02:37 »

price seems good for aluminum board, problem is we will be stuck when it comes to replacing keycaps later on, that's a huge problem when you have nice looking custom board with worn out keycaps, and no possibilities to upgrade. Would love to try out the matias clicky switches, saw videos of them and they sound superb. I might reconsider if at least this GB plans to make the keycaps thick PBT dyesub, maybe 2 tone classic color to give the board nice look.

Saying this cause after shelling $300 for an aluminum board, that is it, no keycaps for it later on..... Will the aluminum boards be full aluminum housing?



Keycaps should not be a problem...

We are designing it to support both our keycaps and those by SP, and will have stabilizers available for both.

We'll also be selling our own keycaps soon, so when the backlit caps need replacing, you'll be able to just buy a set (rather than replace the whole keyboard).

What kind of keycaps? (material and printing type?)

Offline Matias

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - Matias TKL (optional backlight, aluminum case)
« Reply #29 on: Mon, 29 September 2014, 23:43:12 »

What kind of keycaps? (material and printing type?)



We'll be selling ABS caps soon, laser etched. 

We also have PBT tooling for some caps, with the rest coming over the next year.

SP has tooling for ABS doubleshots.

Offline JaccoW

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - Matias TKL (optional backlight, aluminum case)
« Reply #30 on: Tue, 30 September 2014, 00:46:05 »
I'm interested. Backlit and aluminum case :D
White backlight, aluminum case and white keycaps. Premium 'Apple' style :D
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Offline c137

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - Matias TKL (optional backlight, aluminum case)
« Reply #31 on: Tue, 30 September 2014, 05:05:52 »
Thanks for your interest!

The backlight will be RGB and you can choose brightness and color with separate analog dials.
This is great, because it isn't significantly more expensive than single-color-LEDs but allows one batch to be manufactured for all color whishes (plus those people who like to change the color on a regular basis).

I might reconsider if at least this GB plans to make the keycaps thick PBT dyesub, maybe 2 tone classic color to give the board nice look.

The original first idea included PBT caps, but they proved to be too expensive ($500 per keyboard) right now.
As you can see, Matias Corp is going to sell caps separately and also is going to introduce all-PBT keys during the next years. Thus caps will be available to change  :thumb:


For now, we should get the key placement on the PCB fixed/decided upon. (Fn functions can be discussed later on.) This would enable Matias to give us an idea how the whole board (i.e. analog dials, case etc.) could look like (nothing definitive yet, of course, just ideas).

I have added two designs to the start post. Even though I personally still prefer the 88b_Jesterfox (F1 above 2) I also wouldn't have a problem with the layout based on 91c with F1 above Q.
« Last Edit: Tue, 30 September 2014, 05:12:49 by c137 »
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Offline Jesterfox

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - Matias TKL (optional backlight, aluminum case)
« Reply #32 on: Tue, 30 September 2014, 16:12:56 »
Both colours will be available.

Does that mean I could get white backlit keycaps for that board? Would be nice ;-) I'm a PC user but I'm bored with black keyboards...
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Offline Matias

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - Matias TKL (optional backlight, aluminum case)
« Reply #33 on: Tue, 30 September 2014, 16:18:08 »
Both colours will be available.

Does that mean I could get white backlit keycaps for that board? Would be nice ;-) I'm a PC user but I'm bored with black keyboards...



Yes, that's right.  Black and white backlit caps will both be available.



Offline 3rain3ug

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - Matias TKL (optional backlight, aluminum case)
« Reply #34 on: Wed, 01 October 2014, 08:34:49 »
I'm  interested in that.
I like the x88-DE__F1-above-Q Layout but with ISO-DE
PCB Keykaps and Aluminium Case please (quality over price!)

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - Matias TKL (optional backlight, aluminum case)
« Reply #35 on: Wed, 01 October 2014, 09:11:17 »
SP has tooling for ABS doubleshots.

SP doesn't have the tooling for some of the modifiers though. I believe they don't have a spacebar mold either.

Offline Matias

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - Matias TKL (optional backlight, aluminum case)
« Reply #36 on: Wed, 01 October 2014, 13:06:38 »
SP has tooling for ABS doubleshots.

SP doesn't have the tooling for some of the modifiers though. I believe they don't have a spacebar mold either.



We'll be providing spacebars.

Which modifiers does SP not have tooling for?


Offline Elrick

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - Matias TKL (optional backlight, aluminum case)
« Reply #37 on: Thu, 02 October 2014, 22:16:49 »
We'll be providing spacebars.

Please make sure you supply as many that are required for each order.  Remember here on GH, one is never enough  8) .

Offline c137

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - Matias TKL (optional backlight, aluminum case)
« Reply #38 on: Fri, 03 October 2014, 07:41:05 »
Yeah, those key choices are great.

Now, what layout is being favored?
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Offline Matias

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - Matias TKL (optional backlight, aluminum case)
« Reply #39 on: Fri, 03 October 2014, 16:14:33 »

Yeah, those key choices are great.

Now, what layout is being favored?



I quite like F1-above-Q -- which is essentially the same as Jesterfox's suggestion, but with a gap between F12 and print screen.  Without that gap, we lose the standard key groupings.


78790-0


Offline c137

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - Matias TKL (optional backlight, aluminum case)
« Reply #40 on: Fri, 03 October 2014, 16:41:05 »
Yeah, I guess that would be all right. Just to be sure, I just asked the guys on Computerbase and PCGH, who are not registered here to decide.

I quite like both of them equally.

Just as a side note, getting ready for the following discussions around Fn:
For me (and I believe for Jesterfox, too) it would be ideal, to have back, play/pause and next on F10 to F12 reachable via Fn. For mute, quieter, louder I would go for the print screen, scroll lock and pause keys directly, putting those functions back to the Fn layer on those keys.
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Offline Matias

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - Matias TKL (optional backlight, aluminum case)
« Reply #41 on: Fri, 03 October 2014, 17:10:55 »


Just as a side note, getting ready for the following discussions around Fn:
For me (and I believe for Jesterfox, too) it would be ideal, to have back, play/pause and next on F10 to F12 reachable via Fn. For mute, quieter, louder I would go for the print screen, scroll lock and pause keys directly, putting those functions back to the Fn layer on those keys.



Okay, just to confirm, are you asking for this...?

      Fn + F10  =  Previous Track
      Fn + F11  =  Play/Pause
      Fn + F12  =  Next Track

      Fn + Mute  =  Print Screen
      Fn + Vol -  =  Scroll Lock
      Fn + Vol + =  Pause

While it is convenient to have dedicated keys for volume control, doing it this way will probably lead to an increase in mode errors -- because the audio controls are not all in the same layer.

For example, when you want Play/Pause, you need to remember to PRESS Fn.  When you want Volume control, you need to remember to NOT PRESS Fn.

This inconsistency usually leads to more errors.  Google "mode errors" for more info...


« Last Edit: Fri, 03 October 2014, 17:14:39 by Matias »

Offline Jesterfox

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - Matias TKL (optional backlight, aluminum case)
« Reply #42 on: Sat, 04 October 2014, 05:32:19 »
I quite like F1-above-Q -- which is essentially the same as Jesterfox's suggestion, but with a gap between F12 and print screen.  Without that gap, we lose the standard key groupings.

I like both layouts. For my suggestion I just used the standard TKL layout and removed the gap witch seemed to increase the cost of the case. It just looks more convenient to me. But F1 above Q would be better for MMO gaming ;-) So I'm fine with both variants.

The volume keys directly on the main layer was also my idea. Because having those as dedicated media keys is really nice to have. But I agree that this could cause errors with the other media keys on a different layer.
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Offline c137

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - Matias TKL (optional backlight, aluminum case)
« Reply #43 on: Sat, 04 October 2014, 08:38:12 »
That was what I meant, right.

Well, yeah I see the point about mode errors.
Hoever, for me personally, I don't use Print screen, scroll lock, pause, previus track, play/pause, next track frequently. But I do use volume keys a lot.

But I wouldn't have a problem with all media keys being on the Fn layer.
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Offline Wack3n

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - Matias TKL (optional backlight, aluminum case)
« Reply #44 on: Sat, 04 October 2014, 09:51:32 »
I'm interested in a Wraith.

Polycarbonat Body (i don't have that much money)
Backlight
Jesterfoxlayout in ISO-DE (or alternatively the standard ANSI) and F1-above-Q
White Keycaps
Matias Quiet

Edit: Extra loudness keys instead of print, roll, pause would be nice...
« Last Edit: Sat, 04 October 2014, 09:53:48 by Wack3n »

Offline Matias

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - Matias TKL (optional backlight, aluminum case)
« Reply #45 on: Sat, 04 October 2014, 16:01:44 »
Okay, thanks for the comments...

I agree the volume keys are much more useful than Print Screen, Scroll Lock, and Pause.  I rarely use those, whereas volume controls get pressed frequently throughout the day.

Mode errors can be reduced by making the triggering gestures more different from each other.  Here are some options...

1)  If we move Play/Pause to Fn+Esc and Back/Forward to Fn+F1/F2, there should be no problem having dedicated Volume keys, with Print Screen/etc. moved into the Fn layer.  Opposing hands are used and the gestures are different enough that mode errors should not be a problem.  Fn-Esc can be pressed easily, since everybody has lots of practice pressing Esc...


78860-0


2)  A similar but more efficient/faster variation on the above idea is to have Play/Pause on Fn+Spacebar and Back/Forward on Fn+D/F.  Since all of those keys are in home position, you only have to move your right hand to Fn to trigger them.  Lots of video player software uses Spacebar for Play/Pause, so having Fn-Spacebar as the Play/Pause shortcut makes a lot of sense.  If you don't like seeing printing on the Spacebar, we can leave that off while still keeping the functionality and documenting it in the manual.  This is perhaps my favourite option...


78862-1


78870-2


3)  Similar to the above approach, but all the audio controls are in the Fn layer in the home row, so you only need to move your right hand to Fn to trigger them.  All the other keys are 100% standard, so there should be no problem getting keycap replacements for them. 

Again, the audio control functions can be included without printing them on the keys, giving you a totally standard keyset (shown in the 2nd drawing below)...


78864-3


78872-4


4)  Moving all the audio controls to the Fn layer fixes the mode error problem, but is significantly less convenient.  They can be triggered one-handed if you have big hands or are willing to stretch to reach them.  IMO, this is the least desirable option...


78866-5


5)  Similar to the above approach, but with the audio controls arranged according to the standard position on Apple keyboards.  The only advantage this one has is that you can support PC and Mac on the same keyboard, without layout conflicts...


78868-6


If you have any other suggestions, please post them.  Otherwise, my favourites are "2) PlayPause-on-Fn+Spacebar" and "3)  Audio-in-HomeRow-Fn-layer".

« Last Edit: Sat, 04 October 2014, 17:05:30 by Matias »

Offline dante

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - Matias TKL (optional backlight, aluminum case)
« Reply #46 on: Sat, 04 October 2014, 16:10:16 »
My only suggestion is to move the navigation cluster/etc 1 unit to the right like a regular ten keyless...

I know I know...

Offline CommonCurt

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - Matias TKL (optional backlight, aluminum case)
« Reply #47 on: Sat, 04 October 2014, 17:45:45 »
My only suggestion is to move the navigation cluster/etc 1 unit to the right like a regular ten keyless...

I know I know...

I suggest the same.
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Offline c137

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - Matias TKL (optional backlight, aluminum case)
« Reply #48 on: Sun, 05 October 2014, 06:10:39 »
Having a gap between the left arrow key and the right control key means more tooling has to be done.
That means a significant price increase for the polycarbonate version and an even bigger one for the aluminum version.

If you just move the 9 keys of the upper right, well, the thing just looks pretty odd.


@Matias: optically and based on my own hands, I could live with option 4, but I wouldnd't like 5.
2 is pretty neat. However I'd like to have the Fn layer functions printed on F and D, while the space bar is left blank.
« Last Edit: Sun, 05 October 2014, 06:16:33 by c137 »
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Offline MOZ

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Re: [IC] "Wraith" - Matias TKL (optional backlight, aluminum case)
« Reply #49 on: Sun, 05 October 2014, 07:04:52 »
Direly need a DS ABS keycap set for Alps.