Any programmers on geekhack? What language(s) do you use?

[iLLucionist]

Learning C atm.

Then C++

then assembly

then python.

Going to be a long 3 months.

Why even bother with assembly?

Assembly is a great way to truly understand what your computer (or CPU) is doing. As a matter of fact, assembly is used even in higher level languages to see what, for instance in the case of python, the interpreter is doing and what it could do better. Or micro-optimizations / profiling / micro-profiling.

That still doesn't really tell why.  Especially if you're just learning, for the difficulty in learning/programming.  And the general overall usefulness.

For the sake of learning, assembly is useful to understand the intricate parts of how a CPU works: the memory (registers) in the CPU itself, how to move data back and forth between registers and how to work with system memory (memory outside of the CPU).

For overall usefulness I tried to give an example. First example is to optimize the efficiency of an interpreter. An interpreter converts your program into bytecode that is then fed into the virtual machine that actually executes the code. By profiling (making an exact snapshot of the instructions that a CPU executed) this code, you can see what the interpreter actually did with your code and where it could have been more efficient, like less instructions or using different instructions or jumps.

Another application would be to profile (again, make a snapshot of the instruction that a CPU executed) your own interpreted application, see where there is a bottleneck or where the interpreter is slow or inefficient and try to make your own function for that particular piece of code in a more low level language like C or assembly directly.

Is that more clear?

[chuckdee]

Learning C atm.

Then C++

then assembly

then python.

Going to be a long 3 months.

Why even bother with assembly?

Assembly is a great way to truly understand what your computer (or CPU) is doing. As a matter of fact, assembly is used even in higher level languages to see what, for instance in the case of python, the interpreter is doing and what it could do better. Or micro-optimizations / profiling / micro-profiling.

That still doesn't really tell why.  Especially if you're just learning, for the difficulty in learning/programming.  And the general overall usefulness.

For the sake of learning, assembly is useful to understand the intricate parts of how a CPU works: the memory (registers) in the CPU itself, how to move data back and forth between registers and how to work with system memory (memory outside of the CPU).

For overall usefulness I tried to give an example. First example is to optimize the efficiency of an interpreter. An interpreter converts your program into bytecode that is then fed into the virtual machine that actually executes the code. By profiling (making an exact snapshot of the instructions that a CPU executed) this code, you can see what the interpreter actually did with your code and where it could have been more efficient, like less instructions or using different instructions or jumps.

Another application would be to profile (again, make a snapshot of the instruction that a CPU executed) your own interpreted application, see where there is a bottleneck or where the interpreter is slow or inefficient and try to make your own function for that particular piece of code in a more low level language like C or assembly directly.

Is that more clear?

Yes.  Thanks for your thoughts.  I totally disagree, however.  That might have been true even as late as the 90s.  But these days, unless you're doing low level driver work, there are tools to do this.  And yes, I know assembler, so this is from my own experience.  Some of the terms and operations might help, but even that is arguable, especially since its different for different processor architectures.

[UsualSuspectXXX]

Learning C atm.

Then C++

then assembly

then python.

Going to be a long 3 months.

Why even bother with assembly?

Assembly is a great way to truly understand what your computer (or CPU) is doing. As a matter of fact, assembly is used even in higher level languages to see what, for instance in the case of python, the interpreter is doing and what it could do better. Or micro-optimizations / profiling / micro-profiling.

That still doesn't really tell why.  Especially if you're just learning, for the difficulty in learning/programming.  And the general overall usefulness.

For the sake of learning, assembly is useful to understand the intricate parts of how a CPU works: the memory (registers) in the CPU itself, how to move data back and forth between registers and how to work with system memory (memory outside of the CPU).

For overall usefulness I tried to give an example. First example is to optimize the efficiency of an interpreter. An interpreter converts your program into bytecode that is then fed into the virtual machine that actually executes the code. By profiling (making an exact snapshot of the instructions that a CPU executed) this code, you can see what the interpreter actually did with your code and where it could have been more efficient, like less instructions or using different instructions or jumps.

Another application would be to profile (again, make a snapshot of the instruction that a CPU executed) your own interpreted application, see where there is a bottleneck or where the interpreter is slow or inefficient and try to make your own function for that particular piece of code in a more low level language like C or assembly directly.

Is that more clear?

Yes.  Thanks for your thoughts.  I totally disagree, however.  That might have been true even as late as the 90s.  But these days, unless you're doing low level driver work, there are tools to do this.  And yes, I know assembler, so this is from my own experience.  Some of the terms and operations might help, but even that is arguable, especially since its different for different processor architectures.

chuckdee, I agree with you. I learned assembly a while ago and to this day it's still one of the most useless things I've learned. Right next to Fortran. For a new programmer, it would be much more useful to gain knowledge in languages that you are more likely to use on a regular basis or can help get you a job. You cannot argue that knowledge of higher level languages are much more useful in the world we live in.

[chuckdee]

chuckdee, I agree with you. I learned assembly a while ago and to this day it's still one of the most useless things I've learned. Right next to Fortran. For a new programmer, it would be much more useful to gain knowledge in languages that you are more likely to use on a regular basis or can help get you a job. You cannot argue that knowledge of higher level languages are much more useful in the world we live in.

You wasted your time learned FORTRAN?    I'd say that the only other languages I learned that were as big of a waste were Ada and COBOL.  Except ADA helped me in Delphi (no... for real.  Learn ADA first, and Pascal becomes a breeze, and this is supported by research - http://www.sigada.org/conf/sa98/papers/murtagh.pdf ), and COBOL helped me make money.

[UsualSuspectXXX]

You learned FORTRAN?   

Barely. Had to use if for one my classes. Worst part was that it wasn't even the most recent version. I think it was the '95 version, which meant 6 or less characters for variables and method names >_<

I had a professor threaten to make us learn COBOL =P

[rowdy]

And don't forget trailing slashes!

I do python coding and there is this "convention" people try to follow.. it's called PEP-8. So I have my linting set up to automatically check for that and even auto-correct on save when possible. That really saves a LOT of time during coding.

There was an update to PEP8 recently!

Noes! When? What's changed?

Can't find the reference now.

Apparently the new version has numeric operators at the beginning of the next line where a line is split, instead of the end of the first line.

result = a \
         + b \
         + c

instead of:

result = a + \
            b + \
            c

[Bromono]

Learning C atm.

Then C++

then assembly

then python.

Going to be a long 3 months.

Why even bother with assembly?

All of those are requirements for work.

and assembly is great for reverse engineering.

[dgneo]

Learning C atm.

Then C++

then assembly

then python.

Going to be a long 3 months.

Why even bother with assembly?

All of those are requirements for work.

and assembly is great for reverse engineering.

Was about to post this, easily best reason imo.

[quadcube]

mainly C,then C++,assembly,SQL,Bash,Verilog..

most of the projects I have done are on micro-controllers

[iLLucionist]

And don't forget trailing slashes!

I do python coding and there is this "convention" people try to follow.. it's called PEP-8. So I have my linting set up to automatically check for that and even auto-correct on save when possible. That really saves a LOT of time during coding.

There was an update to PEP8 recently!

Noes! When? What's changed?

Can't find the reference now.

Apparently the new version has numeric operators at the beginning of the next line where a line is split, instead of the end of the first line.

result = a \
         + b \
         + c

instead of:

result = a + \
            b + \
            c

Thanks for the details. I think I prefer the old formatting better.

[iri]

What language(s) do you use? Why?

Erlang, because there's a ****ton of legacy code. And we know it.

Ocaml, because of the static typing, decent functional features and ease of use.
And OPAM prints cute camels in my terminal window.

Do you use an IDE or do you hate IDE's?

I use IntelliJ IDEA and Neovim. I don't hate IDE's but my IDE use is on decline.

What languages do you hate with passion?

PHP, Perl, JS, Scala, Clojure.

[rowdy]

And don't forget trailing slashes!

I do python coding and there is this "convention" people try to follow.. it's called PEP-8. So I have my linting set up to automatically check for that and even auto-correct on save when possible. That really saves a LOT of time during coding.

There was an update to PEP8 recently!

Noes! When? What's changed?

Can't find the reference now.

Apparently the new version has numeric operators at the beginning of the next line where a line is split, instead of the end of the first line.

result = a \
         + b \
         + c

instead of:

result = a + \
            b + \
            c

Thanks for the details. I think I prefer the old formatting better.

Me too.

I don't think much of my code complies with PEP8 )

[ramnes]

Living from my Python skills for some years now. I first learnt and used C and C++, but never took the time to learn ASM and now it sometimes bites me in the ass when I want to do some low-level programming. 

As for that PEP8 change, here it is: https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/#should-a-line-break-before-or-after-a-binary-operator

[iri]

ПБТ НЕ НАВСЕГДА, НО НАДОЛГО

[ramnes]

ПБТ НЕ НАВСЕГДА, НО НАДОЛГО

Still longer than double-shots! Not the point here, though. 

[iLLucionist]

What language(s) do you use? Why?

Erlang, because there's a ****ton of legacy code. And we know it.

Cool so Erlang actually IS used in real situations for real projects.

What languages do you hate with passion?

PHP, Perl, JS, Scala, Clojure.

What's wrong with Clojure in particular? Don't you like Lisp on top of jvm?

[iLLucionist]

Thanks for the details. I think I prefer the old formatting better.

Me too.

I don't think much of my code complies with PEP8 )

My code almost complies. The only check I always turn off is the multi-line indenting rule within brackets. Makes code too difficult to read (and write).

[ramnes]

All my code complies to PEP8 at 99%, except for monkey-patchs.
I check it real-time all the time on my editor: https://github.com/ramnes/.emacs.d/blob/master/bin/pycheck#L5

E125 and E129 are useless (not part of the real PEP8), and the 80 columns rule (E501) is deactivated just because I got something else in my configuration that handle it better and just highlight the characters beyond 80.

PEP8 is a really good norm, guys.

I think it could (and maybe should) be much stricter, and even enforced by the interpreter actually. 

[iLLucionist]

All my code complies to PEP8 at 99%, except for monkey-patchs.
I check it real-time all the time on my editor: https://github.com/ramnes/.emacs.d/blob/master/bin/pycheck#L5

E125 and E129 are useless (not part of the real PEP8), and the 80 columns rule (E501) is deactivated just because I got something else in my configuration that handle it better and just highlight the characters beyond 80.

PEP8 is a really good norm, guys.

I think it could (and maybe should) be much stricter, and even enforced by the interpreter actually. 

I love PEP8 and at least (almost) everybody in the python community agrees to that standard.

[ramnes]

I was mostly saying that for rowdy, who doesn't seem to care. 

[rowdy]

I was mostly saying that for rowdy, who doesn't seem to care. 

For a start I am pretty much the only person who ever reads my code.

I also use terminals with 180 column width, so limiting to 79 characters is silly.

I only ever use single blank lines (but do separate classes with #############################################).

I put all my simple imports on one line.

Inline comments are separated by one space.

That's after a quick look at PEP8.

I have been writing Python code since, er, maybe as long ago as the late 199s, which predates PEP8.  I use this in my defence.

[chuckdee]

I have been writing Python code since, er, maybe as long ago as the late 199s, which predates PEP8.  I use this in my defence.

No defense necessary.  The programmer who hasn't written code that's less than optimal hasn't been programming long.

[ramnes]

I also use terminals with 180 column width, so limiting to 79 characters is silly.

Come on, you know that's not the point. 

I'm on a 30" inch monitor, and I can put 364 characters on a line if I wanted to... and I'm still following the 80 columns rule. 

[ileben]

C, C++, C#, Python

Visual Studio is the best IDE period. There is nothing that compares at all when it comes to debugging, stepping through code, inspecting values, and modifying memory and/or code in the middle of the run.

Also, programming without an IDE debugger is possible, but simply a waste of time when IDE is an option.

[funderburker]

I also use terminals with 180 column width, so limiting to 79 characters is silly.

Come on, you know that's not the point. 

I'm on a 30" inch monitor, and I can put 364 characters on a line if I wanted to... and I'm still following the 80 columns rule. 

Agree, 80 columns rule is for easy reading. Better the code to go vertical than horizontal. Easier to read, easier to maintain, easier to "push" and see changes.

[rowdy]

C, C++, C#, Python

Visual Studio is the best IDE period. There is nothing that compares at all when it comes to debugging, stepping through code, inspecting values, and modifying memory and/or code in the middle of the run.

Also, programming without an IDE debugger is possible, but simply a waste of time when IDE is an option.

Can you run VS on a Mac?

Will it run under Linux?

[iri]

Will it be as great as JetBrains products?

[chuckdee]

C, C++, C#, Python

Visual Studio is the best IDE period. There is nothing that compares at all when it comes to debugging, stepping through code, inspecting values, and modifying memory and/or code in the middle of the run.

Also, programming without an IDE debugger is possible, but simply a waste of time when IDE is an option.

Can you run VS on a Mac?

Will it run under Linux?

It will if you're using VS Code - https://code.visualstudio.com/Download

Or if you use a virtualizing solution

But I do disagree that it's the best option as a solution for everyone, and that programming without an IDE debugger is possible, but simply a waste of time when IDE is an option.  There are things that you can do with other options that you can't do with a full-fledged IDE.  They're all tools- use what works for you. 

I'm not going to try to hammer a screw just because I love hammers and don't want to join the screwdriver coalition

[iri]

What language(s) do you use? Why?

Erlang, because there's a ****ton of legacy code. And we know it.

Cool so Erlang actually IS used in real situations for real projects.

What are you even talking about? Is it hard to find the actual Erlang users through a simple web search?

What languages do you hate with passion?

PHP, Perl, JS, Scala, Clojure.

What's wrong with Clojure in particular? Don't you like Lisp on top of jvm?

-- Dynamic typing
-- Insufficient workarounds for dynamic typing
-- Cryptic stacktraces
-- Poor tooling
-- Insane resource usage
-- Little to no documentation for libraries and frameworks
-- There's a ****ton of code with deep nesting, which looks ugly.
-- nil

ПБТ НЕ НАВСЕГДА, НО НАДОЛГО

Still longer than double-shots! Not the point here, though. 

did you know that there are PBT doubleshots m8

[ramnes]

I'm OG-only, I don't know PBT double-shots. 

[iLLucionist]

I was mostly saying that for rowdy, who doesn't seem to care. 

For a start I am pretty much the only person who ever reads my code.

I also use terminals with 180 column width, so limiting to 79 characters is silly.

I only ever use single blank lines (but do separate classes with #############################################).

I put all my simple imports on one line.

Inline comments are separated by one space.

That's after a quick look at PEP8.

I have been writing Python code since, er, maybe as long ago as the late 199s, which predates PEP8.  I use this in my defence.

Nothing wrong with that. Usually with the python projects I come across or are personally involved in, we have a document outlining how the project decided to differ from PEP-8. Works pretty well to keep everybody in the team on the same page.

[iLLucionist]

C, C++, C#, Python

Visual Studio is the best IDE period. There is nothing that compares at all when it comes to debugging, stepping through code, inspecting values, and modifying memory and/or code in the middle of the run.

Also, programming without an IDE debugger is possible, but simply a waste of time when IDE is an option.

Can you run VS on a Mac?

Will it run under Linux?

It will if you're using VS Code - https://code.visualstudio.com/Download

Or if you use a virtualizing solution

But I do disagree that it's the best option as a solution for everyone, and that programming without an IDE debugger is possible, but simply a waste of time when IDE is an option.  There are things that you can do with other options that you can't do with a full-fledged IDE.  They're all tools- use what works for you. 

I'm not going to try to hammer a screw just because I love hammers and don't want to join the screwdriver coalition

Well... I personally hate IDEs because I want an IDE that fits MY thinking and not the other way round so I stick to vim/emacs/spacemacs. But in the end, I basically end up with a custom IDE in vim / emacs with a load of plugins. So I guess that all I want is, is an IDE that follows my train of thought and doesn't get in the way.

[iLLucionist]

What language(s) do you use? Why?

Erlang, because there's a ****ton of legacy code. And we know it.

Cool so Erlang actually IS used in real situations for real projects.

What are you even talking about? Is it hard to find the actual Erlang users through a simple web search?

Perhaps I'm misinformed then. I thought erlang was more of a niche language. I've never really used it myself, except for toying around a bit.

[iri]

What language(s) do you use? Why?

Erlang, because there's a ****ton of legacy code. And we know it.

Cool so Erlang actually IS used in real situations for real projects.

What are you even talking about? Is it hard to find the actual Erlang users through a simple web search?

Perhaps I'm misinformed then. I thought erlang was more of a niche language. I've never really used it myself, except for toying around a bit.

Ever heard of that thing called WhatsApp?

[vyshane]

Cool so Erlang actually IS used in real situations for real projects.

What are you even talking about? Is it hard to find the actual Erlang users through a simple web search?

Perhaps I'm misinformed then. I thought erlang was more of a niche language. I've never really used it myself, except for toying around a bit.

Elixir, a newish language on the Erlang VM is getting pretty popular.

[iri]

Elixir's syntax makes me cringe.

[pr0ximity]

There's no language that's not worth learning, just something to consider for the people debating the usefulness of things like assembler, FORTRAN, or Erlang.

Also, Erlang is ****ing hardcore.

http://www.infoq.com/presentations/self-heal-scalable-system

[iri]

Erlang isn't hardcore at all. Also the previous poster is wrong.

[chuckdee]

There's no language that's not worth learning, just something to consider for the people debating the usefulness of things like assembler, FORTRAN, or Erlang.

Also, Erlang is ****ing hardcore.

http://www.infoq.com/presentations/self-heal-scalable-system

That's not remotely close to what we were saying.  Just that for today, the relative usefulness of languages is a real thing.  You will get more out of certain languages in general use than others.  Once he said the use case, it made a lot of sense.  But in absence of that context, not so much.  And actually taking your statement, it could be edited to say "there's nothing that's not worth learning", because that would be just as true.

[vito687]

And I'm Judy

[rowdy]

Found the PEP 8 link: https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2016-April/144205.html

[pr0ximity]

"Knuth said it"

I'm okay with that reasoning.

[daerid]

*wave*

~20 year vet here, most langs except things like Erlang/Haskell/Lisp

[DamienG]

Another vet here - have touched Delphi, C++, Z80 assembler, Scala, Python, Groovy, Typescript, Javascript, VB! and various Basic's etc. over the years.

Most of my professional career has been in C# though - worked at MS for a while on bits of the .net framework which was cool.

Currently Javascript/Node/Coffeescript working on the Atom editor.

[rowdy]

Another vet here - have touched Delphi, C++, Z80 assembler, Scala, Python, Groovy, Typescript, Javascript, VB! and various Basic's etc. over the years.

Most of my professional career has been in C# though - worked at MS for a while on bits of the .net framework which was cool.

Currently Javascript/Node/Coffeescript working on the Atom editor.

That's impressive!

[ileben]

C, C++, C#, Python

Visual Studio is the best IDE period. There is nothing that compares at all when it comes to debugging, stepping through code, inspecting values, and modifying memory and/or code in the middle of the run.

Also, programming without an IDE debugger is possible, but simply a waste of time when IDE is an option.

Can you run VS on a Mac?

Will it run under Linux?

It doesn't matter because, unless you are writing an app specifically for Mac or Linux, you can write code mostly on Windows, with occasional detour to other platforms to implement platform-specific code and test it. If you are doing any kind of cross-platform programming, the only sensible choice (if you care about productivity at all), is to do most of the coding and debugging on Windows in VS. There are also many third-party SDKs/toolkits that will let you target and deploy your solution on multiple platforms, straight from VS (especially true if you work on mobile apps these days).

[the_marsbar]

MATLAB every day (audio signal processing).

I'll be taking a Python course next week, should be interesting, although I'm sure I'm going to miss some of the toolboxes available in MATLAB.

Previously I've touched upon: C/C++, Java and Ojective-C. I also had a realtime DSP course where we had to do assembly programming - that was quite interesting, although mostly not very useful.

I really want to get into emacs.

[chuckdee]

C, C++, C#, Python

Visual Studio is the best IDE period. There is nothing that compares at all when it comes to debugging, stepping through code, inspecting values, and modifying memory and/or code in the middle of the run.

Also, programming without an IDE debugger is possible, but simply a waste of time when IDE is an option.

Can you run VS on a Mac?

Will it run under Linux?

It doesn't matter because, unless you are writing an app specifically for Mac or Linux, you can write code mostly on Windows, with occasional detour to other platforms to implement platform-specific code and test it. If you are doing any kind of cross-platform programming, the only sensible choice (if you care about productivity at all), is to do most of the coding and debugging on Windows in VS. There are also many third-party SDKs/toolkits that will let you target and deploy your solution on multiple platforms, straight from VS (especially true if you work on mobile apps these days).

Good response.  Another good response.  .NET Core.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/05/09/microsoft_dot_net_core/

The loss of AppDomains is a big hit for me personally, but it looks like they're doing due diligence to make it just work.

[rowdy]

MATLAB every day (audio signal processing).

I'll be taking a Python course next week, should be interesting, although I'm sure I'm going to miss some of the toolboxes available in MATLAB.

Previously I've touched upon: C/C++, Java and Ojective-C. I also had a realtime DSP course where we had to do assembly programming - that was quite interesting, although mostly not very useful.

I really want to get into emacs.

http://www.pyzo.org/python_vs_matlab.html

[NewbieOneKenobi]

Nothing fancy these days, just HTML/CSS/PHP. Twenty years ago was a different story.