about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....

[skuko]

first let me preface this with the following:

i joined geekhack in may last year, so my perception of certain things and processes on GH may be wrong/skewed due to lack of experience. furthermore, i'd like to state beforehand, that this is by no means an attack on any GH member or GB runner, i have the utmost respect for everyone who has the nerves and dedication to run a GB.

now...
a couple of weeks ago, a decision was made to move the macross GB into the Signature Plastics (SP) subforum. i have no idea who or why made this decision, but i think it is bad. let me explain why:

1. the cap design, IC and surrounding discussion was run by a GH member here on GH.
2. SP only provides a platform for the administrative work, which i guess is pretty exhausting, unless you have your own (kudos to bunny and the team at ctrl alt for developing their own)
3. i'm not convinced that SP is doing this to gain any exclusivity for GBs or any significant sales revenue (since they're doing stuff en masse for big vendors, if i'm not mistaken)
4. there already are negative remarks about this by GH members who missed this GB because of reduced visibility

all in all, i don't think that running GBs through the SP platform is any different than say BunnyLake running GBs through the ctrl alt website - it is merely a tool for making the GB run easier and smoother (provided that the bugs are ironed out), the GB design, IC and everything leading up to the actual GB is managed by GH members, as far as i can tell.

separating it only hurts both the GB and the community in my opinion.

i'd like to hear the reasoning behind this decision.

thank you

edit: proposed solution - create a subforum WITHIN the GB forum, labeled appropriately, i.e. "vendor group buys" and congregate all GBs from people labeled as "vendor" there. this would

1. separate the "professional" buys from the pure GH ones
2. solve the problem with the lack of exposure

edit2: probably the best solution by JD:

I'm a mod, and here's my opinion.

I think all community group buys should be placed in geekhack marketplace > group buys. If a commercial vendor is doing their own design, it should go under their vendor forum. But keycap group buys which were designed by community members or "non-commercial" vendors, regardless of the venue used to organize the group buy, should stay in the group buys forum.

Also, I think we need to make a bigger distinction between so-called "Commercial Vendors" whose main enterprise is the sale of keyboards and related accoutrements, but who maintain a forum presence for exposure and accessibility; and "Artisans" or "Community Vendors" whose main purpose here on Geekhack is as community members, but who also sell goods and/or services as a side operation.

[Krogenar]

What about putting vendor sponsored GB's into the same thread as all the rest, but mark out the first post clearly as being sponsored by a vendor? Then all the groupbuys are in one place, and can be found. I don't find the distinction between traditional and sponsored GBs to be an important one, but it is to some people.

I don't believe the Macross GB was put into the vendor thread in an attempt to reduce the visibility (give the mod staff the benefit of the doubt) -- but that is what happened. People just assumed all the groupbuys would be found in a single place -- the groupbuy subforum. This reasonable assumption was wrong.

[riotonthebay]

I agree with all of the above.

The primary concern seems to be thread volume, but I don't think that's much of an issue – new threads seem to be frequently reviewed and non-serious posters or those just linking directly to another site can be tossed out. I don't think the distinction should be "run from start to finish by a GH member" but instead "run for the sake of the community". Using this metric, the Macross GB clearly belongs.

[hashbaz]

A maintained, sticky'd "Active Group Buys" thread would be another possible solution.  Reaper did this for a while but it hasn't been touched in months.

[regack]

A maintained, sticky'd "Active Group Buys" thread would be another possible solution.  Reaper did this for a while but it hasn't been touched in months.

I suppose that would depend on if the rules allowed for it to be counted as a group buy, and subsequently posted into that thread... well, that and the thread would need to be updated.

On that note, I have a semi-related/tangential question...

Community members (from here on, just members) can be vendors... and vendors can be members.  I think everyone can agree this is true.  In fact, vendors get a little tag by their name so we Know Who They Are.  Now my question is... when a member/vendor posts... how do we know under which hat they are posting?   Does it even matter?  Apparently it might.

I'm not trying to be weird about it, or stir up crap, but if vendors and members are going to be held to different standards, perhaps vendors should be required to have a separate account when doing vendorish things in their vendory area.

Feel free to convince me that it should NOT be this way.

Things to consider for this discussion: What if a vendor is selling/buying in the classifieds?  What if a vendor is reviewing a product?  What if a vendor is participating in a group buy?  What if a vendor is running a group buy....

[ideus]

The point here is not about who is running a GB, either vendor, or not, but who at the end is collecting the money. In the case of SP, its sponsered GB, was relocated under SP thread when it was known that SP was to collect the money with its new GB site.


It should be considered that even with non vendor led GB the money paid will end in a vendor's pocket most of the time. Thus, if separation is required because of that, I do not see an actual reason, a subforum for GB should include a vendors area, and a non vendors one. Otherwise just allow vendor sponsored GB to be in the same forum.

[skuko]

The point here is not about who is running a GB, either vendor, or not, but who at the end is collecting the money.

why? is there a good reason why it's important? i disagree with this. as the "end user", i don't really care who collects the money, as long as the process is hassle-free and smooth, the keys get done and shipped.

i really don't think that SP is in this for a massive profit, i think of this as a more of a enthusiast community type of thing with the "potential" of going completely independent.

[ideus]

The point here is not about who is running a GB, either vendor, or not, but who at the end is collecting the money.

why? is there a good reason why it's important? i disagree with this. as the "end user", i don't really care who collects the money, as long as the process is hassle-free and smooth, the keys get done and shipped.

i really don't think that SP is in this for a massive profit, i think of this as a more of a enthusiast community type of thing with the "potential" of going completely independent.

I am in your side. What I was trying to say is that it appeared that was the only reason GH mods considered to separate SP GB from the other GBs.

[skuko]

yeah i get it. just looking for the reasoning behind it, since it seems completely unreasonable to me :X

[ideus]

Based on the read times and posted responses this thread has not gotten enough attention. Thus, it may not be of the interest of the community, which is a shame. Besides mods have not jumped in the discussion.

[Krogenar]

Based on the read times and posted responses this thread has not gotten enough attention. Thus, it may not be of the interest of the community, which is a shame. Besides mods have not jumped in the discussion.

Hash posted a response, he's a mod.

As for the separation of vendor-sponsored groupbuys -- I still don't really see the necessity for those groupbuys to be put into the vendor forums. Most of those forums seem to be dedicated to direct client-to-vendor issues: requests for repair, questions about upcoming products, etc. As long as everyone is clear on the special nature of the groupbuy, where's the harm?

What about Ctrl-Alt groupbuys? Are their groupbuys listed in the groupbuy forum, or their vendor subforum?

EDIT: Nope, they're all listed under the groupbuy forum -- which I think makes perfect sense. Why not put SP sponsored groupbuys into the same forum?

[ideus]

Let's see if someone with decision authority jumps into the discussion.

[jdcarpe]

I'm a mod, and here's my opinion.

I think all community group buys should be placed in geekhack marketplace > group buys. If a commercial vendor is doing their own design, it should go under their vendor forum. But keycap group buys which were designed by community members or "non-commercial" vendors, regardless of the venue used to organize the group buy, should stay in the group buys forum.

Also, I think we need to make a bigger distinction between so-called "Commercial Vendors" whose main enterprise is the sale of keyboards and related accoutrements, but who maintain a forum presence for exposure and accessibility; and "Artisans" or "Community Vendors" whose main purpose here on Geekhack is as community members, but who also sell goods and/or services as a side operation.

[ideus]

I'm a mod, and here's my opinion.

I think all community group buys should be placed in geekhack marketplace > group buys. If a commercial vendor is doing their own design, it should go under their vendor forum. But keycap group buys which were designed by community members or "non-commercial" vendors, regardless of the venue used to organize the group buy, should stay in the group buys forum.

Also, I think we need to make a bigger distinction between so-called "Commercial Vendors" whose main enterprise is the sale of keyboards and related accoutrements, but who maintain a forum presence for exposure and accessibility; and "Artisans" or "Community Vendors" whose main purpose here on Geekhack is as community members, but who also sell goods and/or services as a side operation.

A coherent and objetive point of view. Let's do it this way then.

[hashbaz]

I'm a mod, and here's my opinion.

I think all community group buys should be placed in geekhack marketplace > group buys. If a commercial vendor is doing their own design, it should go under their vendor forum. But keycap group buys which were designed by community members or "non-commercial" vendors, regardless of the venue used to organize the group buy, should stay in the group buys forum.

Also, I think we need to make a bigger distinction between so-called "Commercial Vendors" whose main enterprise is the sale of keyboards and related accoutrements, but who maintain a forum presence for exposure and accessibility; and "Artisans" or "Community Vendors" whose main purpose here on Geekhack is as community members, but who also sell goods and/or services as a side operation.

I'm picking up that distinctive jdcarpe undertone.

[jdcarpe]

I'm picking up that distinctive jdcarpe undertone.

WWJDD

[MOZ]

I'm a mod, and here's my opinion.

I think all community group buys should be placed in geekhack marketplace > group buys. If a commercial vendor is doing their own design, it should go under their vendor forum. But keycap group buys which were designed by community members or "non-commercial" vendors, regardless of the venue used to organize the group buy, should stay in the group buys forum.

Also, I think we need to make a bigger distinction between so-called "Commercial Vendors" whose main enterprise is the sale of keyboards and related accoutrements, but who maintain a forum presence for exposure and accessibility; and "Artisans" or "Community Vendors" whose main purpose here on Geekhack is as community members, but who also sell goods and/or services as a side operation.

My thoughts exactly.

[skuko]

I'm a mod, and here's my opinion.

I think all community group buys should be placed in geekhack marketplace > group buys. If a commercial vendor is doing their own design, it should go under their vendor forum. But keycap group buys which were designed by community members or "non-commercial" vendors, regardless of the venue used to organize the group buy, should stay in the group buys forum.

Also, I think we need to make a bigger distinction between so-called "Commercial Vendors" whose main enterprise is the sale of keyboards and related accoutrements, but who maintain a forum presence for exposure and accessibility; and "Artisans" or "Community Vendors" whose main purpose here on Geekhack is as community members, but who also sell goods and/or services as a side operation.

exactly this, couldn't agree more. i took the liberty and included it in the op with a proper quote.

[Neebio]

I'll throw in my opinion, cause why not.

I don't give a flying fruit who makes, handles the order, moves the money, or does the shipping, for a group buy.  If it's a group buy, I want it in the group buy section.

It's bloody simple: visibility.  I don't want to miss a group buy because it's hidden away in the vendor subforum.  I don't check the vendor subforums because honestly, I've never had a reason to and they're out of the way.

I don't care if you think 'vendor' group buys should be distinguished as such with either tagging them in the title or in the thread, as long as they're with all the other group buys.  Personally I think it's pretty clear if the thread is started by somebody with 'vendor' under their username.

From my perspective, if I'm browsing the group buy section because I'm thinking of buying some awesome key caps, I don't want to miss an awesome key cap group buy because it was delegated to a vendor subforum where I didn't see it.  Plain and simple.  To not have all the group buys together in one place, it hurts the users looking for them as much as it hurts the group buys themselves, by reducing exposure.

TL;DR: Put all group buys together, regardless of who runs them.  Have tags in titles or in threads if that's your fancy. 

[Krogenar]

TL;DR: Put all group buys together, regardless of who runs them.  Have tags in titles or in threads if that's your fancy.

Agreed -- is this going to be the new policy for groupbuys that are vendor-sponsored, but community designed? What if someone who hasn't registered at GH were to design a keycap set under SP's new system -- would that make it a vendor groupbuy (and hence placed in the vendor forum) or would it still be considered a community groupbuy -- and thus would be listed with all the other groupbuys?

Let's just put all the groupbuys in the one forum, clearly labeled so that people who wring their hands over these distinctions can feel safe, and people who assume all the groupbuys would be listed under "groupbuys" will find them there. So what's GH policy on this?

[skuko]

i think this should be looked at by the staff asap. with the upcoming DSA PBT monster GB, it would be a shame if it didn't get enough traction because of this.

[Krogenar]

Would it be possible to move the Granite Dyesub PBT GB thread from the SP subforum to the main GB forum? It was designed by Matteo, who's a member of the community.

[StylinGreymon]

Would it be possible to move the Granite Dyesub PBT GB thread from the SP subforum to the main GB forum? It was designed by Matteo, who's a member of the community.

This.
To imply that it wasn't community designed and driven is a massive insult to Matt3o and everyone else here who put so much work into making this set.

Not to mention, is there even a way for new members (and even existing members) to know that there are group buys located in places other than the group buy subforum?

[Krogenar]

Not to mention, is there even a way for new members to know that there are group buys located in places other than the group buy subforum?

Someone referenced an old thread documenting all the current (and past) GBs, but it hasn't been maintained. The Granite GB should be placed alongside the other groupbuys. Right now people are deciding which GB fits into their budgets and which don't -- if they commit to another GB and then notice granite (or others) -- they'll be pissed, and rightfully so.

Matt is following the guidelines laid out -- I don't think the GB was placed in the SP subforum by the mods, I think it was created there in order to comply with the rules. I respectfully request that the rules be changed and the GB placed (with Matt's permission) into the GB forum where it will receive the exposure it deserves.

[StylinGreymon]

I am not a clever man, and I admit it freely.
So can somebody explain to me why community and vendor group buys needed to be separated in the first place, with absolutely no connection with each other?

[SpAmRaY]

I'm a mod, and here's my opinion.

I think all community group buys should be placed in geekhack marketplace > group buys. If a commercial vendor is doing their own design, it should go under their vendor forum. But keycap group buys which were designed by community members or "non-commercial" vendors, regardless of the venue used to organize the group buy, should stay in the group buys forum.

Also, I think we need to make a bigger distinction between so-called "Commercial Vendors" whose main enterprise is the sale of keyboards and related accoutrements, but who maintain a forum presence for exposure and accessibility; and "Artisans" or "Community Vendors" whose main purpose here on Geekhack is as community members, but who also sell goods and/or services as a side operation.

+1

I concur with jd's statement.

[Matt3o]

This time Signature Plastics is selling directly, taking huge advantage of the community without giving anything back (at least financially speaking).

Also SP is seen as taking very little risk on its own. The whole risk is on the community, if the GB doesn't sell enough it will simply dropped. In this scenario SP is taking huge advantage of a very passionate community.

That being said, SP actually demonstrated that is willing to take the risk, the Skull Squadron GB is a clear example of SP willingness of doing the right thing. They listened to the community requests, they lowered the price and they will also produce some extra sets with my prior permission.

Also, from now on it will be possible for anybody to organize even "micro" GBs not only for full sets but also few keycaps, which, in my opinion is a great service for us all.

This on the other hand might pose a serious thread for all the great small vendors who did a really great job for the community with very little (if none) turn back.

This is not an easy issue to solve. SP could make a "donation" to GH for every GB they push on the forum, but that wouldn't solve the "small vendor" issue.

Lastly.

Designing a full sublimated PBT set is a HUGE work! It's not like for doubleshot that you are going to use SP's font and the mock-up can be done with Paint.net.

Every legend has to be designed exactly the way it will be printed (font size, spacing, thickness, positioning). It took me a hell lot of time (weeks!) and the work is not finished yet! Granite set is by no means an SP creation. It's 100% community's blood and sweat. Every legend has been designed by me with your help, and this time SP is really just the manufacturer.

In fact, this time (contrary to Skull Squadron) if SP will ask me to produce extra sets I won't give them permission unless they pay for the design phase.

[Neebio]

I looked over your set this morning, and I must say, Matt3o, it looks fantastic.  Unfortunately for me, my disposable income allotted to keycaps is diminished... Even if I am not able to pick up a set, thanks for your work in getting the set designed and off the ground.

Matt3o has certainly provided some insight here into why it is probably a good idea to distinguish between vendor run and individual/non-profit run group buys. Still, I believe all group buys, regardless of who is running them, should fall in the group buys section of the forum.  From an information organization standpoint, it only makes sense.  With that said, perhaps it would be best to create a vendor sub-forum within group buys.  This would firmly distinguish vendor group buys from others, without harming the exposure and visibility that the group buys get.

[CPTBadAss]

A maintained, sticky'd "Active Group Buys" thread would be another possible solution.  Reaper did this for a while but it hasn't been touched in months.

My team and I could organize that thread again.

[ideus]

This time Signature Plastics is selling directly, taking huge advantage of the community without giving anything back (at least financially speaking).

Also SP is seen as taking very little risk on its own. The whole risk is on the community, if the GB doesn't sell enough it will simply dropped. In this scenario SP is taking huge advantage of a very passionate community.

That being said, SP actually demonstrated that is willing to take the risk, the Skull Squadron GB is a clear example of SP willingness of doing the right thing. They listened to the community requests, they lowered the price and they will also produce some extra sets with my prior permission.

Also, from now on it will be possible for anybody to organize even "micro" GBs not only for full sets but also few keycaps, which, in my opinion is a great service for us all.

This on the other hand might pose a serious thread for all the great small vendors who did a really great job for the community with very little (if none) turn back.

This is not an easy issue to solve. SP could make a "donation" to GH for every GB they push on the forum, but that wouldn't solve the "small vendor" issue.

Lastly.

Designing a full sublimated PBT set is a HUGE work! It's not like for doubleshot that you are going to use SP's font and the mock-up can be done with Paint.net.

Every legend has to be designed exactly the way it will be printed (font size, spacing, thickness, positioning). It took me a hell lot of time (weeks!) and the work is not finished yet! Granite set is by no means an SP creation. It's 100% community's blood and sweat. Every legend has been designed by me with your help, and this time SP is really just the manufacturer.

In fact, this time (contrary to Skull Squadron) if SP will ask me to produce extra sets I won't give them permission unless they pay for the design phase.

Totally agree on asking design royalties in your behalf if SP wants to produce extra sets.

[Matt3o]

A maintained, sticky'd "Active Group Buys" thread would be another possible solution.  Reaper did this for a while but it hasn't been touched in months.

My team and I could organize that thread again.

hold on I'm organizing something even better and I would need help maintaining it

[Krogenar]

I still don't see why we're putting vendor-run but community designed groupbuys in a kind of subforum ghetto. If it were designed by SP and produced by SP, then sure, that makes sense -- it's not a community affair any more at all on any level and would qualify more as a product announcement.

Let's just do what makes logical sense -- put groupbuys in the groupbuy forum, and put warning labels in the thread titles and the first post so that people know that the groupbuy is being run by a vendor. Put a Scarlet V in the thread title, lol. This way people who worry about this development can avoid these groupbuys for the sake of social justice, Market Leninism, or whatever other reason they might have.

We Report. You Decide. (pre-emptive demik reference)

[Matt3o]

I agree all GBs should go under the main GB section unless directly designed by SP. After all even if I managed the GB directly the money would have gone to SP anyway...

btw, I stand admins' decision.

[CPTBadAss]

A maintained, sticky'd "Active Group Buys" thread would be another possible solution.  Reaper did this for a while but it hasn't been touched in months.

My team and I could organize that thread again.

hold on I'm organizing something even better and I would need help maintaining it

Sounds good . Looking forward to it!

[taylordcraig]

I'm a mod, and here's my opinion.

I think all community group buys should be placed in geekhack marketplace > group buys. If a commercial vendor is doing their own design, it should go under their vendor forum. But keycap group buys which were designed by community members or "non-commercial" vendors, regardless of the venue used to organize the group buy, should stay in the group buys forum.

Also, I think we need to make a bigger distinction between so-called "Commercial Vendors" whose main enterprise is the sale of keyboards and related accoutrements, but who maintain a forum presence for exposure and accessibility; and "Artisans" or "Community Vendors" whose main purpose here on Geekhack is as community members, but who also sell goods and/or services as a side operation.

I'm with JD.

[mkawa]

a couple things:

jd is now exclusively on the keeper side of the fence. his was previously allowed to act as both a moderator and a keeper due to short staffing and a large number of fires.

regarding SP's new sales system, any situation in which a vendor such as SP receives payment from individuals, manufactures product, and then delivers said product to individuals is not a group buy but a vendor selling wares. a group buy is an independently organized (mess, unfortunately but most often) in which a cohort bands behind a small finite number of buying parties, who exclusively interact with a vendor/manufacturer and then do fulfillment themselves.  it doesn't matter at all who does the design. in fact, in SP's situation, it seems to me that they are having the community design their products and then collecting all payment and margin on that product and giving the designer only a single set of keycaps. this seems eyebrow raising to me if i were either a designer or customer. that said, there have been many many traditional group buys whose terminal manufacturers were SP and went extremely badly, so mod team invites either option, but the rules on where these threads should go are pretty much set. if there are other situations in which the lines are unclear, we invite examination of _those_ situations, and not the rules as they regard to SP.

to recap, direct vendor sales go in their own subforums, period, and within SP's new direct sales system, they are very clearly accepting and fulfilling direct vendor sales. as i said above, this is probably, on the whole, not a bad thing; it may be one that needs some tweaking for the community's sake and keyset designers, but my personal opinion is that it's a step in the right direction

about the vendor forums being a ghetto, that is only the case if the vendor does not put forth the effort required to do the marketing, outreach and generally participate on the forum. some great examples of subforums that are NOT ghettos are edgar matias' subforum, CM storm's, and mechanicalkeyboard.com's forums. corsair opted against having a vendor forum because they preferred to use the hours they had available to interact with the community organically, and i think they have done an excellent job at that. again, vendors who can formulate clear goals within our rubrick do well and have plenty of interaction between their representatives and the community. those that do not don't, regardless of whether they have a vendor forum or not.

[Matt3o]

this all discussion is pointless. Granite set did so well that hugely proved that the location where the the GB is placed is totally irrelevant.

it doesn't matter at all who does the design. in fact, in SP's situation, it seems to me that they are having the community design their products and then collecting all payment and margin on that product and giving the designer only a single set of keycaps. this seems eyebrow raising to me if i were either a designer or customer.

While an ABS set can be designed in a couple of hours, a PBT set requires really a lot of time. So while I see no harm in running double-shot sets or single keycaps (like the Vim key), the work I've done for the Granite set has been huge and I will hardly do the same again. That being said, SP acknowledged my help and I got far more than a "set of keycaps", so it has not been entirely eyebrow raising for me. Not enough to run another sublimated set, but still credit goes where credit is due.

[ideus]

this all discussion is pointless. Granite set did so well that hugely proved that the location where the the GB is placed is totally irrelevant.

it doesn't matter at all who does the design. in fact, in SP's situation, it seems to me that they are having the community design their products and then collecting all payment and margin on that product and giving the designer only a single set of keycaps. this seems eyebrow raising to me if i were either a designer or customer.

While an ABS set can be designed in a couple of hours, a PBT set requires really a lot of time. So while I see no harm in running double-shot sets or single keycaps (like the Vim key), the work I've done for the Granite set has been huge and I will hardly do the same again. That being said, SP acknowledged my help and I got far more than a "set of keycaps", so it has not been entirely eyebrow raising for me. Not enough to run another sublimated set, but still credit goes where credit is due.

I am very glad to know that you feel satisfy with the outcomes of the GB. You really did a great job with the set, so more than deserved to be credited, so if that was the case great for you my friend.

[mkawa]

this all discussion is pointless. Granite set did so well that hugely proved that the location where the the GB is placed is totally irrelevant.

it doesn't matter at all who does the design. in fact, in SP's situation, it seems to me that they are having the community design their products and then collecting all payment and margin on that product and giving the designer only a single set of keycaps. this seems eyebrow raising to me if i were either a designer or customer.

While an ABS set can be designed in a couple of hours, a PBT set requires really a lot of time. So while I see no harm in running double-shot sets or single keycaps (like the Vim key), the work I've done for the Granite set has been huge and I will hardly do the same again. That being said, SP acknowledged my help and I got far more than a "set of keycaps", so it has not been entirely eyebrow raising for me. Not enough to run another sublimated set, but still credit goes where credit is due.

good to know, and for other potential set designers to know. i expect that SP and the community can work out the economics and publicity issues so that other sets go just as well if not better. like i said, regardless of where the threads go, i think this is a step forward from the old days. remember when tjcaustin had to finance 20k of the first klaxon set by himself because of short payments? i don't particularly want that to ever happen again, but i do want the community to have access to custom caps, so in all i think this is a brave new world that will ultimately be a huge positive for the community.

[Krogenar]

regarding SP's new sales system, any situation in which a vendor such as SP receives payment from individuals, manufactures product, and then delivers said product to individuals is not a group buy but a vendor selling wares.

I could buy that argument if we were talking about a product that was designed by the manufacturer, and the agreement is only that they will provide a quantity discount if enough orders are aggregated. By this reasoning, mkawa, you're saying that the Macross and Granite ... "events?" were not actually groupbuys, they were merely sales of wares by SP. This is surprising to me because they sure as hell looked like groupbuys to me. It feels like you're saying, "Yes, it quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, but since it flew in from the north (and we know all ducks fly in exclusively from the south) it is therefore not a duck."

a group buy is an independently organized (mess, unfortunately but most often) in which a cohort bands behind a small finite number of buying parties, who exclusively interact with a vendor/manufacturer and then do fulfillment themselves. it doesn't matter at all who does the design.

So if I follow your logic correctly, if SP executives were to sit down and design a keycap set, and then give it to Matteo or some other GH community member and say, "Here's the design, get the orders, collect the money and we'll ship them to you in bulk, and you can sort and ship them." then that would in fact be a 'groupbuy' and listed in the Groupbuy forum? Since, as you say, it doesn't matter who does the design, so this situation would qualify as a groupbuy? I think the designer's role is crucial to what defines a community groupbuy.

it seems to me that they are having the community design their products and then collecting all payment and margin on that product and giving the designer only a single set of keycaps. this seems eyebrow raising to me if i were either a designer or customer.

Wait, now who designs it matters again? What's eyebrow raising about the designer receiving nothing more than a complimentary set, free of charge? Isn't that the traditional standard for groupbuys anyway? To hear others tell it, groupbuy organizers should reap no profit besides their own keycap set, and in fact are better organizers (or more saintly, at least) when they lose money, or sanity (sorting, packing, invoicing, etc.) -- but if SP handles the logistics for a groupbuy that arrangement of no profit becomes 'eyebrow raising'? Again, no, that's not the issue -- the issue is that someone (SP) has a margin at all, and aren't willing to sanctify their efforts by taking a financial beating. Yes, the crux of this separation is profit. Someone is making a profit -- and thus the groupbuy will be put out of sight, kept apart from the other groupbuys.

But SP (and other vendors) always makes a profit, even with traditional groupbuys -- so what's the point of setting these groupbuys apart?

about the vendor forums being a ghetto, that is only the case if the vendor does not put forth the effort required to do the marketing, outreach and generally participate on the forum. some great examples of subforums that are NOT ghettos are edgar matias' subforum, CM storm's, and mechanicalkeyboard.com's forums. corsair opted against having a vendor forum because they preferred to use the hours they had available to interact with the community organically, and i think they have done an excellent job at that. again, vendors who can formulate clear goals within our rubrick do well and have plenty of interaction between their representatives and the community. those that do not don't, regardless of whether they have a vendor forum or not.

There have been reports of people who missed out on these two groupbuys because they made the (absolutely reasonable) assumption that all groupbuys would be found under the groupbuys forum. The main rule here at GH is to keep discussions in their proper threads, and it makes sense. So let's say someone else from GH uses SP's system; they cannot create their thread in the groupbuys forum, so they have to place it in the SP vendor forum. Could the organizer go into the groupbuys forum, create a topic that says, "Hey, check out my groupbuy!" and link to the vendor forum? Would that be acceptable? My guess is that it would not be allowed. This seems silly ("Hey! Bread aisle shoppers, there's a new brand of bread over in the seafood aisle, come check it out!") and more importantly, it requires groupbuy organizers to work harder than other organizers. For Granite, people put the link in their signatures so that the groupbuy wouldn't be overlooked. Why do that? Why punish these groupbuys? For some legalistic reason? Also, by listing all groupbuys together our community can make better decisions -- they can more easily compare all the groupbuys going on, and decide where best to spend their finite money. How aggravating to buy into a groupbuy and then discover there is a groupbuy that you would have preferred, but it was not listed alongside all the others.

I know the policy is now set and I accept it. It's bad policy; policy that makes us (as a community) seem petty and even a little stupid. With respect, I urge you to reconsider this policy. Groupbuys shouldn't be exercises in self-sacrifice for organizers, they should be about (as you said once, mkawa, very, very rightly!) making some cool ****. If a manufacturer happens to make a profit in the process that's okay with me. Groupbuys should go in the groupbuy thread.

[SpAmRaY]

a couple things:

jd is now exclusively on the keeper side of the fence. his was previously allowed to act as both a moderator and a keeper due to short staffing and a large number of fires.

regarding SP's new sales system, any situation in which a vendor such as SP receives payment from individuals, manufactures product, and then delivers said product to individuals is not a group buy but a vendor selling wares. a group buy is an independently organized (mess, unfortunately but most often) in which a cohort bands behind a small finite number of buying parties, who exclusively interact with a vendor/manufacturer and then do fulfillment themselves.  it doesn't matter at all who does the design. in fact, in SP's situation, it seems to me that they are having the community design their products and then collecting all payment and margin on that product and giving the designer only a single set of keycaps. this seems eyebrow raising to me if i were either a designer or customer. that said, there have been many many traditional group buys whose terminal manufacturers were SP and went extremely badly, so mod team invites either option, but the rules on where these threads should go are pretty much set. if there are other situations in which the lines are unclear, we invite examination of _those_ situations, and not the rules as they regard to SP.

to recap, direct vendor sales go in their own subforums, period, and within SP's new direct sales system, they are very clearly accepting and fulfilling direct vendor sales. as i said above, this is probably, on the whole, not a bad thing; it may be one that needs some tweaking for the community's sake and keyset designers, but my personal opinion is that it's a step in the right direction

about the vendor forums being a ghetto, that is only the case if the vendor does not put forth the effort required to do the marketing, outreach and generally participate on the forum. some great examples of subforums that are NOT ghettos are edgar matias' subforum, CM storm's, and mechanicalkeyboard.com's forums. corsair opted against having a vendor forum because they preferred to use the hours they had available to interact with the community organically, and i think they have done an excellent job at that. again, vendors who can formulate clear goals within our rubrick do well and have plenty of interaction between their representatives and the community. those that do not don't, regardless of whether they have a vendor forum or not.

so how does this group buy fit into 'group buys' and not imsto's own commercial subforum?

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57244.0

[mkawa]

moved.

feng will also have to start putting his threads in his forum unless they represent actual group buys as well (as he does actually run group buys and also vend, so he's kind of a grey area).

to be clear, it does not matter who designs a keyset. if it is vended by a vendor, and is not an independently organized group buy in which a cohort proxy buy through a small group that negotiates with a manufacturer or vendor for bulk pricing, it is allowed in the group buy forum. vendor sales are no longer allowed in the group buy forum unless the vendor can show unequivocally that he or she is acting as a proxy buyer in the above style.

[nubbinator]

So for my Typewriter GB, I'll have to either either run it myself or work with BunnyLake (though shouldn't his GB's technically be in the CtrlAlt sub based on these rules) or have it relegated to the SP sub and never be seen?

I'm with the others in t having a hard time with the rules since I really see no difference between a vendor GB and a proxy buyer GB outside of levels of abstraction.

[Krogenar]

So for my Typewriter GB, I'll have to either either run it myself or work with BunnyLake (though shouldn't his GB's technically be in the CtrlAlt sub based on these rules) or have it relegated to the SP sub and never be seen?

ghetto
put in or restrict to an isolated or segregated area or group.

Why? What's the relevance of whether a groupbuy's logistics are handled by a 'cohort of community members' or handled by the manufacturer? Why does that matter? Why does it matter so much that those groupbuys should be segregated from the other groupbuys? That reasoning has never been sufficiently explained. It feels as arbitrary as placing blue-eyed people in one room, and brown-eyed people in another, more distant, smaller and less accessible room.

This was the most disheartening:

about the vendor forums being a ghetto, that is only the case if the vendor does not put forth the effort required to do the marketing, outreach and generally participate on the forum.

So you acknowledge that the groupbuys are being forcibly put at a disadvantage, and that it's up to them to drag themselves out of it? Why is this really even necessary? Common sense dictates that you place like things together -- groupbuys should be listed with other groupbuys. The specifics of who does what should be listed on the OP, so everything is transparent. Then, the people who apparently do care about these arrangements can do as they choose. Right now, groupbuys that pass this bizarre rule are placed in a logical place where ordinary people are likely to see them, and these other groupbuys are being placed under a rock, in a dark place, where it's their prerogative to lift the stone that's been placed on them by the forum management, and then compete with other groupbuys.

To me, it's icing on the cake that the last such groupbuy was a huge success, despite the limitations placed on it by this ridiculous, pointless policy.

[mkawa]

they're not group buys. simma down KJ

[nubbinator]

they're not group buys. simma down KJ

So would my typewriter inspired sets be considered GBs even if I ran them through PMK?  With all my other projects I'm messing around with, I'm not sure I'd have time to research setting up a DBA and the tax elements of it to properly run the GB on my own.  If I can't run it through PMK and have it in the GB section, it will be in limbo for a while.

That said, I completely agree with your assessment when you stated:

in SP's situation, it seems to me that they are having the community design their products and then collecting all payment and margin on that product and giving the designer only a single set of keycaps. this seems eyebrow raising to me if i were either a designer or customer.

It pisses me off that they're not even willing to do so much as provide the community with a couple of free to use ABS and PBT color rings and are not reimbursing GB organizers for their investment in the color rings,  They're providing nothing to the organizer, who is expected to do all the work outside of manufacturing and shipping, outside of a single cap set, regardless of how many units are sold.  They're not even giving anything to GH as a community, just using us as a source for sales.  That to me is wrong; however, I think it does penalize those who can't otherwise run a GB, but have some great ideas.

[Krogenar]

That said, I completely agree with your assessment when you stated:

in SP's situation, it seems to me that they are having the community design their products and then collecting all payment and margin on that product and giving the designer only a single set of keycaps. this seems eyebrow raising to me if i were either a designer or customer.

It pisses me off that they're not even willing to do so much as provide the community with a couple of free to use ABS and PBT color rings and are not reimbursing GB organizers for their investment in the color rings,  They're providing nothing to the organizer, who is expected to do all the work outside of manufacturing and shipping, outside of a single cap set, regardless of how many units are sold.  They're not even giving anything to GH as a community, just using us as a source for sales.  That to me is wrong; however, I think it does penalize those who can't otherwise run a GB, but have some great ideas.

SP isn't 'giving anything' to the community? How about handling the most tedious aspects of a groupbuy? They're handling money collection, the groupbuy software to give realtime tier updates, the manufacturing, the sorting, the packing and shipping -- which leaves what, exactly, for the groupbuy organizer? Only the really fulfilling aspect of the process: the design work. This idea that a vendor is not giving the community anything when it makes us a product at an agreed upon price is just silly. They get something (the profit necessary to stay in business) and we get a product we want. There's an honesty in that arrangement -- it's not exploitation.

And this arrangement has been going on for a while! They've made a lot of previous groupbuys possible. Was SP guilty of 'using us as a source of sales' in those previous groupbuys? The only difference was that they did not handle as much of the logistics, and they still made a profit. So were those previous groupbuys exploitative? If so, why no complaints about them back then? We didn't complain because we (as a community) were getting what we wanted from SP. How is any of that changed under the PMK system?

[nubbinator]

Handling shipping isn't giving anything to the community.  Money collection is only a problem with people for tax reasons.  It's no sweat off their back to collect it directly and it reduces costs for end users since it removes one abstraction layer and the PP fees there.

The GB organizer is responsible for all the design work, which can be substantial and expensive, just ask Matt3o, and is responsible for all of the marketing, which is integral to a successful buy.  Yes, shipping is a pain, but they're the ones who decided that they wanted to be the direct distributor, similar to Massdrop's model and the imsto, feng/FMJ, Pexon, and other GBs that have been done in the past.  That doesn't change the fact that they're not giving back to the community.

That said, that's off topic.

[Krogenar]

Handling shipping isn't giving anything to the community.  Money collection is only a problem with people for tax reasons.  It's no sweat off their back to collect it directly and it reduces costs for end users since it removes one abstraction layer and the PP fees there.

Handling shipping does give something to community. Anything that makes a GB organizer's life a little less crazy is a good thing. As you say, designing a keycap set already represents a great deal of work -- removing logistical hurdles makes life easier for the organizers, who are a part of the community. And yes, since SP (or any other vendor) is incorporated, they don't set off red flags with PayPal. That's 'no sweat' off the manufacturer's back, true -- but it does represent work taken off the back of the organizer.

Yes, shipping is a pain, but they're the ones who decided that they wanted to be the direct distributor, similar to Massdrop's model and the imsto, feng/FMJ, Pexon, and other GBs that have been done in the past.  That doesn't change the fact that they're not giving back to the community.

That said, that's off topic.

I think this is very relevant to the topic at hand because it reveals the real reason behind the policy. What more does a manufacturer have to 'give back to the community' aside from what we asked them to manufacture at a given price? I think the GH moderating team is making these kinds of groupbuys remain in the vendor ghetto because we would prefer the old way of running groupbuys, despite the fact that they cost more, take more time, and are more taxing on the organizers finances, psychological welfare and time because of some sort of anti-corporation bias.

In hippie voice: "These corporations, man, they're suckin' us dry!"  )

I present this animated gif as a silent protest of the vendor subforum ghettoization policy.

[mkawa]

we're incredibly off-topic here. mod team will use their discretion to direct threads to the appropriate places. the complaint in this thread seems to have turned into the incredibly specific case of SP, which is inarguable under the mod team rubrick. there are a large number of cases that are gray areas, including BL (who i would consider to be running group buys, as ctrlalt is really a loose band of artisans and gb runners, not a large or well organized vendor), feng, and others.

again, SP is not a gray area, and asking vendors to put effort into making money from the community is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. this branch of the discussion is over as far as i'm concerned. you can continue discussing it in off-topic if you'd like, but your feedback has been heard and mod team is not particularly convinced.

i think there is still a lot of meat in the subtle cases in the gray area, usually run by what we would call artisans or maybe community cabals. and of course there's feng on his bicycle, ferrying keycaps. these absolutely deserve more discussion, and there are definitely arguments both ways within mod team.

[Matt3o]

when a group of enthusiasts team together and organize a GB to get a product that it wouldn't be available to them otherwise, that is a GB. There's no turn back, no margin, just pain blood and sweat.

Anything else is commercial. I don't see the gray area.

If you are an enthusiast who has a very nice hand crafted product and you sell it to the community, you are a vendor. Even if that is not your main activity. Even if you make very little profit from it.

My point is that I see absolutely no harm in putting all (vendor or not) time-based purchases (aka GB) in one place so they are easier to find. That's all. But, like I said, DSA Granite did well even in the sub-forum, so evidently if the product is good people find it anyway.

why not a "community GB" AND "vendors GB" sub-forums?

[mkawa]

point in case: feng is a vendor but also runs community-oriented GBs. BL is an artisan vendor but also runs community-oriented GBs. where do we draw the line? that's the gray area.

if you want to get nuts and bolts technical, anyone who runs a GB becomes a vendor for the time they are running the GB. they take payments, fulfill items. it's kind of a mess. the problem is really answering the following question concisely: "what is a community GB?"

[Matt3o]

point in case: feng is a vendor but also runs community-oriented GBs. BL is an artisan vendor but also runs community-oriented GBs. where do we draw the line? that's the gray area.

A vendor may organize a no-profit/community GB. I see no harm in that. Those GBs should go in the "public" GB area.

if you want to get nuts and bolts technical, anyone who runs a GB becomes a vendor for the time they are running the GB. they take payments, fulfill items. it's kind of a mess. the problem is really answering the following question concisely: "what is a community GB?"

if the organizer takes no direct advantage from the sell, I guess?

Anyway, if it's so hard to understand what is what, this is just down to the moderators' gut. That's fine by me.

[SpAmRaY]

At what point do we discuss how people profit off of the 'community'.

I mean without geekhack SP's system wouldn't even have a chance.

How much does it really cost make a key cap?

Seems like a lot of commercialization around here lately. Definitely need more transparency and accountability.

Nothing wrong with people making a profit but don't last us think favors are being done when we are being fleeced.

[mkawa]

point in case: feng is a vendor but also runs community-oriented GBs. BL is an artisan vendor but also runs community-oriented GBs. where do we draw the line? that's the gray area.

A vendor may organize a no-profit/community GB. I see no harm in that. Those GBs should go in the "public" GB area.

the issue of profit is touchy. most community GBs end up costing the organizers a ton of money, even if they make a profit on paper. once you amortize for time spent, customer service, etc. etc. etc. and GB organizers often grab a few parts at the high tiers to try to break even. if some cases they can ultimately make a small profit using lots of these little tricks. so i don't think money is a good way to distinguish between community GBs and otherwise.

in response to spamray, commercial vendors need to make a profit, or they will go out of business. the community really has to decide whether it's being fleeced or not by commercial vendors. mod team has been debating this behind the scenes but we also welcome user feedback. we definitely tend to be conservative about this though. our community is very unique in that it's relatively large but also very open, unbiased and not filled with advertising. we really work hard to preserve that, and i feel the community itself helps a ton in that respect.

with the smaller vendors, artisans, etc. though, that's where it becomes touchy and kind of weird. i think we need a pretty extensive discussion on how we want to treat commercial concerns and the marketplace in general in this community. remember that marketing for a commercial vendor is equivalent to money. my previous efforts have focused on allowing marketing, for example, but only when the entire community can benefit from the quid pro quo. i really think that the making CM storm cases subforum has been a great example of that. i'm able to get topcases to people basically for free, and they get to go to town on them, so even though they are publicizing the brand, they get to add their own creativity and make it their own.

[Krogenar]

i don't think money is a good way to distinguish between community GBs and otherwise.

I don't see why the differences between these groupbuys matters. What public good is being served by making the distinction? If the argument is that SP is 'fleecing' the community by making a profit from the groupbuy, that argument falls apart because SP has made a profit off every previous groupbuy they serviced. So, what's the problem? I think this is something new and people are worried.

Right now SP is the only vendor (as far as I know) that is willing to handle the logistical dog work using their website -- but I have a feeling that other suppliers might follow suit. The policy should be that every organizer state the arrangement with the vendor in the original posting. Then, if people feel that they are being exploited by anyone, for any reason, or in any way, they can make that decision there and then. And all the groupbuys are in one place for review, not scattered around the forum. Yeah, this is a new development and some people might be scared of it, like a big wave coming. We can either try to build a wall against it and be crushed, or we can surf it. I say we surf. If this is a good development (and if the last two GBs handled by PMK are any indication, it is) then we can't actually hope to stop it -- but why would we want to stop something that gives everyone what they want.

[mkawa]

exploitation isn't an issue that determines where the thread goes.

first, i like the suggestion that everyone state their interests in any sale, mass or otherwise. however, if that statement is "i designed this set, and SP will be vending it", it goes into SP's vendor forum, period. it's SP vending SP product. bam, vendor forum.

however, if the statement is "i designed this set, and will be proxy buying a large number of copies from GMK, who will be manufacturing, vending directly to me, at which point i will fulfill", then it's proxy buyer's club situation with all the legal issues involved. that's a group buy.

as far as "getting fleeced" is concerned, mod team doesn't particularly want _anyone_ to be "fleeced" here. so that's not ever going to determine where threads go. if a party seems to be or is actively stealing from the community, the community will probably want to make the choice not to be stolen from.

[Neebio]

however, if the statement is "i designed this set, and will be proxy buying a large number of copies from GMK, who will be manufacturing, vending directly to me, at which point i will fulfill", then it's proxy buyer's club situation with all the legal issues involved. that's a group buy.

Sounds like you have a vendor on your hands there.  In that instance, you should set them up with a vendor sub-forum and segregate them out of the group buys section.

But seriously, the way I see it, you have two cases:

1) Somebody creates a design (as stated, it doesn't matter who), and they go to a manufacturer, get a quote, collect money, pay, receive, sort, and ship out the product.

2) Somebody creates a design (again, doesn't matter who), and they go to a manufacturer who then agrees to release a quote, collect money, sort, and ship out the product.

Differences:

- who collects the money is different.
- who sorts and ships the product is different.

Both are timed purchases, with a minimum order quantity requirement, based on the idea that a group of people will band together to make a purchase possible that would not have been otherwise, due to said minimum quantity requirement.

In both the above cases, there is a group of people banding together to make a purchase possible because of some minimum quantity requirement.  If in either case, not enough people order in the allotted time, no production takes place.  Hence, both of these cases are group buys.

Now, if both of these cases are group buys, why is one flavour of group buy being segregated? I am having great difficulty in understanding any rational as to why a manufacturer collecting money and assuming additional risk in place of an individual is reason to push a particular group buy out of a sub-forum dedicated to just that.

As a consumer, it is only a logical expectation that if a group buy sub-forum exists, that it would encompass all of the group buys.  As a consumer, I care not if a manufacturer is the one to collect the money for a group buy as opposed to an individual, especially if I am made aware of this in the forum posting.  In fact, as a consumer, I would prefer it!  If something goes south on the group buy for whatever reason, it would be far easier to receive a refund or compensation from a manufacturer than from an individual.  Companies have insurance for the exact risks that an individual normally takes on when they organize a group buy.  This is an undisputable benefit to having a manufacturer handle the money from the start.

Why group buys are being segregated according to who collects the money first is beyond me.  I feel it's completely illogical and discriminatory.  The nature of a group buy is for consumers to come together and purchase a bulk order of something so that they can get what they want and enjoy it.  Why the administration and moderation team has chosen to make this more difficult based on some nonsensical demonization of a manufacturer handling money and fulfilling sorting and shipping directly is beyond my poor human understanding.

Profit is made by the manufacturer no matter what, so this cannot play a part in the decision.  This community of consumers orders and receives a product that they choose by collecting orders in bulk to meet a minimum quantity in both cases as well, so this cannot play a part in the decision either.  So what's left to affect the decision to segregate?  The fact that a manufacturer assumes additional risk and effort?

From where I sit, a group buy sub-forum by definition of name should exist to hold group buys, of which both of the above cases are by definition.  Discrimination against group buys should be left to the consumer who is looking to make a purchase.  Allow us to be the ones to decide which group buys we take part in.  Segregating group buys and potentially removing a consumer's decision to enter into a group buy as a result of mis-categorization of a forum posting is illogical and wrong.

I leave you with the above in hopes that you take an honest and real look at why group buys are being segregated.

edit: grammar

[SpAmRaY]

however, if the statement is "i designed this set, and will be proxy buying a large number of copies from GMK, who will be manufacturing, vending directly to me, at which point i will fulfill", then it's proxy buyer's club situation with all the legal issues involved. that's a group buy.

So IF I were to buy 250 sets of some design I come up with from GMK say for $80 a set then come here and offer them for $120 a set is that a group buy?

[Krogenar]

however, if the statement is "i designed this set, and will be proxy buying a large number of copies from GMK, who will be manufacturing, vending directly to me, at which point i will fulfill", then it's proxy buyer's club situation with all the legal issues involved. that's a group buy.

So IF I were to buy 250 sets of some design I come up with from GMK say for $80 a set then come here and offer them for $120 a set is that a group buy?

Are you suggesting that the person buying the 250 sets buys them first and then offers them for sale? That would be just a sale -- the product is already made. If they're trying to get payments from 250 people, talking to people to gauge interest (and tweaking the design accordingly) in order to reach a MOQ that would sound like more of a groupbuy to me. The qualities that define a groupbuy for me are:

Community Involvement - who wants ISO? Also, screw you Ergodoxians, lol!
Tiered Pricing - we reach this amount, the price drops.
Time Window - the groupbuy period ends on such-and-such time.
Unique Item - this hasn't been seen before.

Not every groupbuy has all of these elements, but these feel like the hallmarks of "groupbuys."

If a manufacturer declared it would manufacture keycaps made from unobtanium at various price tiers depending on how many people signed on to buy them by a certain deadline, that, to me, is still a groupbuy. It's not particularly "communal" if the manufacturer doesn't take input from the community, but it's still a groupbuy. Whomever handles the logistics and design feels immaterial to me.

From where I sit, a group buy sub-forum by definition of name should exist to hold group buys, of which both of the above cases are by definition.

(emphasis added by me)

I agree. The argument that the SP-sponsored groupbuys are not actually groupbuys because the money is being collected by SP feels pointlessly legalistic, and the real reason for the distinction hasn't been made clear.

Discrimination against group buys should be left to the consumer who is looking to make a purchase.

Well said. We should (as a community) require transparency; that should be sufficient.

[Mooby]

Hiding group buys in different subforums simply makes them harder to find, especially for newer members. I don't understand how that's supposed to help the community in any way.

[IvanIvanovich]

I do not like this either. It makes it too easy to miss out on things as I very rarely even look at vendor subforums. If they are running it like a proper groupbuy I don't see any reason to not allow them ('vendors') to use groupbuy section.
Groupbuy section - any items that are 'pre-order' at real cost by pool of forum member buyers in order to be custom manufactured that would not get made at all otherwise.
Vendor section - items that vendor had made upfront on their own bought by them wholly and sells likely for profit.

If vendor wants to put groupbuys in their own vendor section so hardly anyone notices it... well that is their decision.

[Photoelectric]

If you're interested in keeping tabs on vendor group buys, you could always subscribe to their subforums, using the "Notify" button, to get notifications about new threads created there.

Group buys usually run for at least 2-4 weeks or longer, so you could also just click on those forums once every few weeks to see what's new.

[riotonthebay]

I went through a significant portion of this thread, and I apologize if I missed this, but: what's to be gained by this distinction again?

[StylinGreymon]

I went through a significant portion of this thread, and I apologize if I missed this, but: what's to be gained by this distinction again?

This is what  I've been struggling to understand for quite a while.
This distinction is clearly very important to the mods, but for the life of me, I can't see why.

Maybe to generate more traffic to other parts of the site?

If I want to see all of the different groupbuys I might want to participate in, I now have to go to a hell of a lot more places than just the Groupbuy section.

[Matt3o]

as far as I understand it's an ethical or deontological disambiguation. Regarding SP, GBs moderators don't see them as real GBs. In that regard I agree with them, but I also agree that all deals should go in the same cauldron, maybe with the only distinction between vendor and community based.

But moderators' mind seem pretty much settled on this and I stand to it.




PS: wow, I used deontological and cauldron in the same paragraph. I feel accomplished

[Krogenar]

I went through a significant portion of this thread, and I apologize if I missed this, but: what's to be gained by this distinction again?

I went through a significant portion of this thread, and I apologize if I missed this, but: what's to be gained by this distinction again?

This is what  I've been struggling to understand for quite a while.
This distinction is clearly very important to the mods, but for the life of me, I can't see why.

Maybe to generate more traffic to other parts of the site?

I completely agree that the motive for the ghettoization of vendor-sponsored groupbuys has not been adequately explained. It's been hinted at, I think, in little spurts of inadvertent candor, and we can try to guess why, but no mod had provided a satisfying answer. I don't think the policy is designed to make people visit other parts of the site. If that were so, we could put groupbuys in hidden places, like easter eggs!

as far as I understand it's an ethical or deontological disambiguation. Regarding SP, GBs moderators don't see them as real GBs. In that regard I agree with them, but I also agree that all deals should go in the same cauldron, maybe with the only distinction between vendor and community based.

Matt, you're probably right. The mods cannot openly declare that they're putting the vendor-sponsored groupbuys in the vendor ghetto for ethical reasons because that would imply that those groupbuys are somehow less ethical. Likely, it's more of a political decision -- there's animus against profit, and for whatever reason, the mods seem to owe some fealty to that attitude.

The deontological (rule-based, as opposed to results-based -- teleological -- ethical framework) reason given by mkawa boils down to: "groupbuys go in the groupbuy thread, and these are not groupbuys." This is unsatisfying to most people because these 'events' really, really look like groupbuys to any normal person. If the deontological explanation feels lawyerly and forced to you, that's because it is. Why are these 'events' not groupbuys? Well, because the mods have declared them not to be. Satisfied? Me neither.

The point of any forum is to make communication easier, right? This policy actively hinders communication.

It doesn't matter if the mods explain their motives -- just change the policy, please. The moderators deserve the benefit of the doubt, and in that case, they're not trying to keep vendor-sponsored groupbuys down so much as uplift the more traditional groupbuys. That's a fine intention, but if it necessitates twisting policy into nonsense, it should stop.

But moderators' mind seem pretty much settled on this and I stand to it.

I respect the mods' right to set policy; but I applaud their past willingness to not only listen to the community but to change policy according to that feedback. I'm hopeful that they will do it again in regards to this policy. The question remains: what community 'good' is achieved by this policy? The negative consequences are known to us -- how does this benefit the community? Legalese doesn't seem sufficient reason.

[ideus]

Mkawa has stated that this issue has been defined as it is. There is no space for debate anymore. However, I think a clear explanation of the motivations of the moderators for this policy is still needed. Two things should be addressed: Benefit for the community, and reasons to not allow some vendors GB in the GB subforum.

[Krogenar]

Mkawa has stated that this issue has been defined as it is. There is no space for debate anymore.

The discussion is over? Good to know. Mods can close and lock the thread, but that doesn't actually stop people from discussing anything.

However, I think a clear explanation of the motivations of the moderators for this policy is still needed. Two things should be addressed: Benefit for the community, and reasons to not allow some vendors GB in the GB subforum.

An explanation would be nice, but a better policy would be best of all. Their motives are almost certainly good; only the policy is flawed.

and reasons to not allow some vendors GB in the GB subforum.

No offense ideus, but get your facts straight.*** The Granite and Skull Squadron ... 'events' were not groupbuys, that's been established. They might have seemed to be "groupbuys" but they were really something else entirely. Something so different that they could not in good conscience be included with actual groupbuys.

*** I'm engaging in hyperbole to prove a point. You're absolutely right to call them groupbuys because that's what they are.

[Krogenar]

https://www.qwerkeys.co.uk/group-buys-interest-checks/

So now Qwerkeys is doing something similar to what SP has done. Assuming they implement it well, there would now be three different places to scan for groupbuys. Also, in an interesting wrinkle, Qwerkeys is also hosting the interest check for a DT keycap: https://www.qwerkeys.co.uk/group-buys-interest-checks/current-group-buys/deskthority-dt-logo-key-caps/

I think this is a wave coming at our community and we should be aiming to surf it, not stop it.

[riotonthebay]

https://www.qwerkeys.co.uk/group-buys-interest-checks/

So now Qwerkeys is doing something similar to what SP has done. Assuming they implement it well, there would now be three different places to scan for groupbuys.

I believe QWERkey's platform is quite different from SP's. They're not a manufacturer as well, and are providing an integrated platform for organizers that manages things like ordering, communication, and payment. The organizer is still responsible for managing manufacturing and distribution. However, this adds even more grey area to the mix.

I still do not see any benefits of the divide, and no one has responded to my inquiry 3 days ago.

[mkawa]

let me put this argument in context here.

the objection to this rule is that you have a click 6 extra times to see all the things that vendors are selling

[jdeblese]

let me put this argument in context here.

the objection to this rule is that you have a click 6 extra times to see all the things that vendors are selling

Honestly, that's a little disingenuous. The issue isn't the difficulty of checking the vendor forums, it's that people aren't aware that there are buys going on in boards other than the main marketplace GB board. The way it is now, you have to at least check all the vendor forums or you might miss something that you just weren't aware of before, and who knows where else unorthodox buys might end up in the future.

I can appreciate the argument for favoring fully-community-run buys, because we still want to encourage people to run buys that target companies who aren't yet consumer-oriented, the type of company that has to be dealt with as a group. It would be better if we could at least create a single marketplace "Vendor Buy" or "Miscelaneous Buy" board that groups together all other buys. That avoids searching for buys becoming an Easter egg hunt.

[Krogenar]

the objection to this rule is that you have a click 6 extra times to see all the things that vendors are selling

You're assuming people know that they have to look for other groupbuys in other subforums. They don't, necessarily.

[rowdy]

Ultimately this is a keyboard discussion forum and community.

The classifieds section was added as a convenience for members.

I see group buys as the same - otherwise we would all just go through Massdrop or something similar.

Most vendors announce group buys in their vendor forums here anyway - you can easily see when a new IC or GB is starting.  You can subscribe to their IC/GB thread to follow updates on the IC/GB (and hopefully an alert and astute vendor would update their thread often - see the Granite thread for a very good example).

I have a bunch of web pages I check every morning - if there is something I'm interested in, I add the page to my bookmarks folder.  Once I lose interest, or the event finishes, I simply delete the bookmark.

[Photoelectric]

This might help:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57761

[mkawa]

I would like to add that this the above thread, starting it and keeping it up to date, is a completely voluntary effort that some of mod team has offered, including but not limited to photoelectric and hoffmanmyster. To that end, _I think_ they deserve quite a bit of thanks for setting this up for you guys.

[jdcarpe]

Regardless of my personal feelings as to what is and isn't considered a group buy, it has been decided that all "products" brought forth by Vendors and Artisans on this forum should be posted in their respective subforums. I really don't see where the confusion and malcontentedness is coming from, regarding where on the forum a thread is posted.

And to classify the Vendor and Artisan subforums as "ghettos" is an outright insult to the many talented Vendors and Artisans who are a part of our community.

Instead of browsing the forum in a rigid and focused manner, only clicking links to areas of ones own personal interest, one could always click the Unread or Spy links at the top, and view threads from various areas of the forum listed chronologically.

But that's just like, my opinion, man.

[SpAmRaY]

Regardless of my personal feelings as to what is and isn't considered a group buy, it has been decided that all "products" brought forth by Vendors and Artisans on this forum should be posted in their respective subforums. I really don't see where the confusion and malcontentedness is coming from, regarding where on the forum a thread is posted.

And to classify the Vendor and Artisan subforums as "ghettos" is an outright insult to the many talented Vendors and Artisans who are a part of our community.

Instead of browsing the forum in a rigid and focused manner, only clicking links to areas of ones own personal interest, one could always click the Unread or Spy links at the top, and view threads from various areas of the forum listed chronologically.

But that's just like, my opinion, man.

I don't think individual products are really being addressed here just group buys. 

But I do encourage people to browse places they might not regularly go to be sure and experience the entirety of geekhack 

[jdcarpe]

Group buys are a product, if you consider that a product can be a service rendered. Apparently Massdrop, SP, and possibly a few others consider them so.

[rowdy]

This might help:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57761

Thanks for setting this up peeps!

reaper had one ages ago, and it was a great idea.

[Krogenar]

And to classify the Vendor and Artisan subforums as "ghettos" is an outright insult to the many talented Vendors and Artisans who are a part of our community.

FTFY.

This policy is an outright insult to common sense. It doesn't make sense, and you've said so yourself:

I think all community group buys should be placed in geekhack marketplace > group buys. If a commercial vendor is doing their own design, it should go under their vendor forum. But keycap group buys which were designed by community members or "non-commercial" vendors, regardless of the venue used to organize the group buy, should stay in the group buys forum.

mkawa has openly admitted that it will be more difficult for groupbuys (sorry, non-groupbuy events) to be found under their respective vendor subforums, and numerous people besides me have wondered at the necessity -- which still has not been explained, aside from 'it's the law.' or some torturous explanation of how these groupbuys aren't actually groupbuys.

This placement of what are obviously groupbuys in a place where they have to work harder to be noticed is why I use (and will continue to use) the word 'ghettoization'. The new kinds of groupbuys should not have a steeper climb to become noticed than other groupbuys, or if they must, explain why that benefits the community.

[jdcarpe]

And to classify the Vendor and Artisan subforums as "ghettos" is an outright insult to the many talented Vendors and Artisans who are a part of our community.

FTFY.

This policy is an outright insult to common sense. It doesn't make sense, and you've said so yourself:

I think all community group buys should be placed in geekhack marketplace > group buys. If a commercial vendor is doing their own design, it should go under their vendor forum. But keycap group buys which were designed by community members or "non-commercial" vendors, regardless of the venue used to organize the group buy, should stay in the group buys forum.

mkawa has openly admitted that it will be more difficult for groupbuys (sorry, non-groupbuy events) to be found under their respective vendor subforums, and numerous people besides me have wondered at the necessity -- which still has not been explained, aside from 'it's the law.' or some torturous explanation of how these groupbuys aren't actually groupbuys.

This placement of what are obviously groupbuys in a place where they have to work harder to be noticed is why I use (and will continue to use) the word 'ghettoization'. The new kinds of groupbuys should not have a steeper climb to become noticed than other groupbuys, or if they must, explain why that benefits the community.

And why did you cross out where I wrote Artisan? There is at least one major Artisan group, CtrlAlt, that runs many group buys here, and their threads will be placed in their Artisan subforum. So why is it you think Vendors are being singled out?

When the decision was first made to separate the Vendor GBs from community GBs, I was of the opinion that all GBs should be in the Group Buys forum. But after a while of seeing it in practice, I have found that it really makes no difference. At least not to me, in the way I use the forum.

Because visibility is NOT a problem. No offense to matt3o, but Granite just wasn't my thing. I don't like DSA, I don't like PBT, and I don't like dyesub. Those are my personal preferences. But I was presented with the thread every time I clicked the Unread link, when someone had posted a new post in the thread. Not only that, but I several people put links to the GB in their signature, which actually has had the effect of considering turning off my viewing of signatures altogether.

Let me put this here again, in case you missed it:

Instead of browsing the forum in a rigid and focused manner, only clicking links to areas of ones own personal interest, one could always click the Unread or Spy links at the top, and view threads from various areas of the forum listed chronologically.

[riotonthebay]

Isn't the necessity of signature billboards an indication that visibility remains a challenge? Did you always find signatures frustrating, or is this a new side effect of the new system?

I apologize if I seem contrarian, but I genuinely believe that we're worse off because of all this. I'd be happy to be convinced otherwise, but I'm not quite there yet

[jdcarpe]

Isn't the necessity of signature billboards an indication that visibility remains a challenge? Did you always find signatures frustrating, or is this a new side effect of the new system?

I apologize if I seem contrarian, but I genuinely believe that we're worse off because of all this. I'd be happy to be convinced otherwise, but I'm not quite there yet

I'm not convinced that the signature advertisements were any more than a "perceived" necessity. Is there any real evidence that any number of participants joined the group buy, and pushed it over the tipping point, due solely to an advertisement in someone's signature?

As to your other question, I'm usually amused by what people put in their signatures. It can show some of their personality or humor, whatever. But I just find the advertisements a bit of a nuisance.

[jdeblese]

I'm not convinced that the signature advertisements were any more than a "perceived" necessity. Is there any real evidence that any number of participants joined the group buy, and pushed it over the tipping point, due solely to an advertisement in someone's signature?

The signature links went through a click counting system, which logged a total of 1357 clicks. Can't say it's what tipped any one set, but I think it's large enough to be significant.

Related, there have already been a few posts along the lines of "Can't believe I missed this".

[BunnyLake]

i dont like to post actual opinions on here, because someone smarter than me is always around to chew me out, however someone said i should express some of my thoughts here

i dont know any of the mods reasoning etc for this, so im speaking only on my experience and what i think/assume

so im in a spot where this can really affect me, and i see it from both points of view so ill quite possibly contradict myself a lot

for full disclosure ill catch you up with my current position

so i / ctrlalt have run many gbs among other things, ctrlalt used to have a vendor forum (now we have an artisan sub) that we would use for products other than gbs as well as ctrlalt announcements etc, and then separately run gbs in the gb sub forum

when the artisan sub forum was created recently, it was proposed we move from a vendor to artisan sub, and separately after that a decision was made to move my gbs from the gb thread to my artisan sub and was then changed back again

i was upset with both of these changes initially, but i, like many others are still now, were only really looking at the short term impact

but speaking as someone who was super against any change, ill try and explain why i now think its the right move

so really, we are all here to consume data, thats all a forum really is, so when a forums user base is small, you dont need many sections, but as the community grows, you have to separate things further, what initially feels like an inconvenience because things you are used to looking for are no longer where you think, will later turn into a convenience where itll be easier to only consume the info you want

as a community we need to be forward thinking, as the community grows, not only do we need to make it easier to navigate to things people wanna see, but also protect ourselves, as the community gets bigger and bigger, we will experience more and more growing pains

things such as scams and failed gbs will become more prevalent, the bigger the community grows, and at that point, having dedicated areas for the work of trusted vendors or community members will be a great thing, you wont be marred by the potentially unsafe gb section, but can live on just your reputation, obviously moderation has to occur as to when and who justifies there own sections, either as vendors or artisans or something new

what may start as an initial hit to visibility, that will change as people learn to view the board differently

the trouble with subtle changes is, peoples viewing habits dont change, i think as time goes on, and the hobby or community grows, eventually the structure of the forum will change to find the best fit to accommodate things

i guess as an example, look at how the media thread works, what most likely started as post your keyboard, turned into post your poker, post your Korean keyboard, post your duckies etc, or even post your brobots or post your clacks, now instead of going through pages and pages of pics trying to see pics of things you want, you can narrow your search, if you just wanna see pics of unicorn vomit boards, there is a place for you

gbs should be no different, it just hurts a bit at first, particularly for people who make a profit, the hit in visibility can hurt there bottom line, but in time viewing habits will change, and as gbs and artisan services get more prevalent, having a place of your own will be a positive thing

and once you have people who run large or multiple gbs in there own sections, it frees up the gb section and helps with visibility for the people trying something new or smaller buys

all that being said, for my particular set of circumstances, i currently want to be in the gb section, as we grow, that may need to change in the future, but for the position we are in right now, i feel we have the right set up for us

for gb participants, in time, your viewing habits will change, and being able to quickly locate buys from people you enjoy dealing with will be a good thing

for gb runners

there are good and bad points for everyone as to whats going on, people who run smaller or first time buys, having people running large trusted buys draws traffic to the gb thread and can help you get noticed, however they can also overshadow you, for vendors who run gbs, the loss in viewership right now may suck, but when community members change there habits, i think there will be many positives to not be lumped in with everyone else

ive had no sleep

most likely best to ignore me

holla

[jdcarpe]

I think a good example of BunnyLake's point is my own thread in the Artisan Services subforum, where I am taking orders for my 40% keyboard builds. I had a thread in Classifieds (created before the new rules were implemented and Artisan Services didn't exist yet), and it got a few hits, and I sold a few keyboards. But now that I have a thread in Artisan Services where it belongs, I have much better visibility there. I have received more interest in the past few days than in the couple months that my Classifieds thread was active.

Now, I'm just one guy, and I have limited spare time to build these hobby projects. But if I were serious about selling something, and invested lots of time and money into the products I was offering, I could definitely see where having my own subforum under Artisan Services (or Vendor Forums) would be of great benefit. Your product or service listed in your own subforum isn't competing for visibility with many other threads in one general forum area.

[CPTBadAss]

what may start as an initial hit to visibility, that will change as people learn to view the board differently

Instead of browsing the forum in a rigid and focused manner, only clicking links to areas of ones own personal interest, one could always click the Unread or Spy links at the top, and view threads from various areas of the forum listed chronologically.

Just because you don't take in the information in the same way others do doesn't mean it doesn't happen. If I didn't know the Berlin Wall fell, does that mean it didn't happen? If you want to know about GBs, adapt your browsing habits or miss out. Would you only take in your news at *only* CNN or BBC or NPR? Why not spread out and look and other ways to take in that information?

I think this entire arguement boils down to "I don't want to click on something new 'cause its scary". Adapt or don't get what you want.

But like, that's my opinion man.

[Krogenar]

And why did you cross out where I wrote Artisan?

I crossed it out because I never mentioned the Artisan subforum in relation to my ghettoization comments.

There is at least one major Artisan group, CtrlAlt, that runs many group buys here, and their threads will be placed in their Artisan subforum. So why is it you think Vendors are being singled out?

Here's why I think the policy is designed to put down some groupbuys and uplift others:

it doesn't matter at all who does the design. in fact, in SP's situation, it seems to me that they are having the community design their products and then collecting all payment and margin on that product and giving the designer only a single set of keycaps. this seems eyebrow raising to me if i were either a designer or customer.

Vendor-sponsored groupbuys (of which SP is the only one so far, but Qwerkeys may soon enter the field) are somehow "eyebrow raising" because they turn a profit? Nevermind that they make a profit on every groupbuy anyway, this attitude that SP is 'using' the community is poisonous, unnecessary, and shouldn't be expressed via policy. At best, the policy is designed to protect friends and fellow forum members from competition -- and that's a good goal, but there are better ways to do it.

When the decision was first made to separate the Vendor GBs from community GBs, I was of the opinion that all GBs should be in the Group Buys forum. But after a while of seeing it in practice, I have found that it really makes no difference. At least not to me, in the way I use the forum.

I have to agree. The Macross GB (the first vendor-sponsored groupbuy) was a success, but Granite was much stronger. I believe SP's PMK system needs work, but there's a lot of potential there and the policies of an internet forum aren't going to keep people from finding what they want to purchase. But the act of trying to stop good things from happening (or at least giving them a steeper climb) makes the forum leadership look petty, even foolish. We shouldn't do that.

Let me put this here again, in case you missed it:

Instead of browsing the forum in a rigid and focused manner, only clicking links to areas of ones own personal interest, one could always click the Unread or Spy links at the top, and view threads from various areas of the forum listed chronologically.

  No, jd, I didn't "miss" your comment. Putting all these different groupbuys in different locations still doesn't make logical sense. It's like saying we put the 'artisan bread' in a completely different supermarket aisle from the other breads. The fact that you can still find the other non-artisan bread by other means doesn't explain the necessity for their segregation. The only hint at the reason so far has been the dark spectre of "eyebrow raising" profit.

as a community we need to be forward thinking, as the community grows, not only do we need to make it easier to navigate to things people wanna see, but also protect ourselves, as the community gets bigger and bigger, we will experience more and more growing pains

(emphasis added by Krog)

I agree that we need to make it easier for people to find what they want to see, that's why I think all groupbuys should be in a single subforum. What I wonder is, what do we need to protect ourselves from? I'm not even disagreeing with the need to protect ourselves -- I'd just like to hear what's threatening us.

things such as scams and failed gbs will become more prevalent, the bigger the community grows, and at that point, having dedicated areas for the work of trusted vendors or community members will be a great thing, you wont be marred by the potentially unsafe gb section, but can live on just your reputation, obviously moderation has to occur as to when and who justifies there own sections, either as vendors or artisans or something new

Is that why we're doing this? To keep untested groupbuy organizers segregated from the main GB subforum until they've proven themselves? Because that would be a sensible policy with a clear public good in mind. How many successful groupbuys would an organizer have to run before they can post in the main thread?

[BunnyLake]

And why did you cross out where I wrote Artisan?

I crossed it out because I never mentioned the Artisan subforum in relation to my ghettoization comments.

There is at least one major Artisan group, CtrlAlt, that runs many group buys here, and their threads will be placed in their Artisan subforum. So why is it you think Vendors are being singled out?

Here's why I think the policy is designed to put down some groupbuys and uplift others:

it doesn't matter at all who does the design. in fact, in SP's situation, it seems to me that they are having the community design their products and then collecting all payment and margin on that product and giving the designer only a single set of keycaps. this seems eyebrow raising to me if i were either a designer or customer.

Vendor-sponsored groupbuys (of which SP is the only one so far, but Qwerkeys may soon enter the field) are somehow "eyebrow raising" because they turn a profit? Nevermind that they make a profit on every groupbuy anyway, this attitude that SP is 'using' the community is poisonous, unnecessary, and shouldn't be expressed via policy. At best, the policy is designed to protect friends and fellow forum members from competition -- and that's a good goal, but there are better ways to do it.

When the decision was first made to separate the Vendor GBs from community GBs, I was of the opinion that all GBs should be in the Group Buys forum. But after a while of seeing it in practice, I have found that it really makes no difference. At least not to me, in the way I use the forum.

I have to agree. The Macross GB (the first vendor-sponsored groupbuy) was a success, but Granite was much stronger. I believe SP's PMK system needs work, but there's a lot of potential there and the policies of an internet forum aren't going to keep people from finding what they want to purchase. But the act of trying to stop good things from happening (or at least giving them a steeper climb) makes the forum leadership look petty, even foolish. We shouldn't do that.

Let me put this here again, in case you missed it:

Instead of browsing the forum in a rigid and focused manner, only clicking links to areas of ones own personal interest, one could always click the Unread or Spy links at the top, and view threads from various areas of the forum listed chronologically.

  No, jd, I didn't "miss" your comment. Putting all these different groupbuys in different locations still doesn't make logical sense. It's like saying we put the 'artisan bread' in a completely different supermarket aisle from the other breads. The fact that you can still find the other non-artisan bread by other means doesn't explain the necessity for their segregation. The only hint at the reason so far has been the dark spectre of "eyebrow raising" profit.

as a community we need to be forward thinking, as the community grows, not only do we need to make it easier to navigate to things people wanna see, but also protect ourselves, as the community gets bigger and bigger, we will experience more and more growing pains

(emphasis added by Krog)

I agree that we need to make it easier for people to find what they want to see, that's why I think all groupbuys should be in a single subforum. What I wonder is, what do we need to protect ourselves from? I'm not even disagreeing with the need to protect ourselves -- I'd just like to hear what's threatening us.

things such as scams and failed gbs will become more prevalent, the bigger the community grows, and at that point, having dedicated areas for the work of trusted vendors or community members will be a great thing, you wont be marred by the potentially unsafe gb section, but can live on just your reputation, obviously moderation has to occur as to when and who justifies there own sections, either as vendors or artisans or something new

Is that why we're doing this? To keep untested groupbuy organizers segregated from the main GB subforum until they've proven themselves? Because that would be a sensible policy with a clear public good in mind. How many successful groupbuys would an organizer have to run before they can post in the main thread?

you seem to be either completely missing my point, or just reading my words and then pretending they mean something totally different

what you are saying is the complete opposite to what i said

[Photoelectric]

The commercial nature of this site is far secondary to its information exchange nature.  That is how we would like to keep it, instead of turning GH into a supermarket.  Therefore, restrictions on commercial sales and compartmentalization are tougher than they would be in a place where the primary goal is sales.  Some people do only come here to buy, and they are still able to with the current scenario, but our primary goal is not to turn GH into a shopping site--it is to keep the commercial side of it in check so it does not overwhelm the unbiased information exchange side.

[Krogenar]

you seem to be either completely missing my point, or just reading my words and then pretending they mean something totally different
what you are saying is the complete opposite to what i said

I'm not willingfully trying to misrepresent your position, BL. I'm sorry if I upset you, that wasn't my intention.

The commercial nature of this site is far secondary to its information exchange nature.  That is how we would like to keep it, instead of turning GH into a supermarket.  Therefore, restrictions on commercial sales and compartmentalization are tougher than they would be in a place where the primary goal is sales.  Some people do only come here to buy, and they are still able to with the current scenario, but our primary goal is not to turn GH into a shopping site--it is to keep the commercial side of it in check so it does not overwhelm the unbiased information exchange side.

Ok. So let me try to rephrase that back to you, and see if my humble brain can wrap around it.

GH's leadership doesn't want the character of the site to change. We don't want to become purely commercial, or overwhelmingly so, because that would be detrimental to the 'unbiased information exchange' aspect of the forum. How does listing all groupbuys together in a single forum overwhelm any other aspect? If there are 15 different groupbuys actively listed on GH, how does dispersing some of those threads into subforums deflect this harm to GH's character? It only works if some of those groupbuys are more detrimental to GH's character than others, and that's where I take issue. Vendors in good standing are members of our community, and I don't think their efforts should be treated this way.

The distinction between a vendor-sponsored groupbuy and a 'traditional' groupbuy doesn't seem to warrant the segregation.

[Photoelectric]

It sets limits on commercial party involvement into the community.  That is done on purpose, as explained above.  Otherwise any random vendor can come in and begin posting in the classifieds and group buys in volume, just to sell and contribute nothing else.  If there are no guidelines set to compartmentalize and limit commercial activity, the end result will be turning this site into Amazon or Taobao of mechanical keyboards, which is not the intention.

[MsYutai]

Why not have a forum called like "Group Buys","Sales","Buy Stuff!" and then have subforums called "Community" and "Vendor"? Probably need some type of description under each, but that way you can still buy stuff from the same area of the forum.

Then the Vendor area of the site would be restricted to discussion of the sale process, complaints, questions, etc.

Another suggestion would be to separate the "Group Buy" section info active and ended GBs-- I know this may be hard but it would help people figure out what they can still actually buy while also keeping the Group Buys forum less cluttered.

EDIT: Sorry if someone else has already suggested this, didn't read the whole thread XD

[mkawa]

It sets limits on commercial party involvement into the community.  That is done on purpose, as explained above.  Otherwise any random vendor can come in and begin posting in the classifieds and group buys in volume, just to sell and contribute nothing else.  If there are no guidelines set to compartmentalize and limit commercial activity, the end result will be turning this site into Amazon or Taobao of mechanical keyboards, which is not the intention.

thanks for putting it so eloquently, photo. that said, i feel like this has been said in a hundred different (albeit less elegant) ways in this thread and am inclined to move further discussion into OT. philosophical discussions about the nature of the forum are welcome, but at some point we have to draw a line between operational discussion and rhetorical discussion. operationally, the current rules will not be changed, for the reasons above. philosophically, one can pontificate all one wants, but probably not here.

[Photoelectric]

Why not have a forum called like "Group Buys","Sales","Buy Stuff!" and then have subforums called "Community" and "Vendor"? Probably need some type of description under each, but that way you can still buy stuff from the same area of the forum.

Then the Vendor area of the site would be restricted to discussion of the sale process, complaints, questions, etc.

Another suggestion would be to separate the "Group Buy" section info active and ended GBs-- I know this may be hard but it would help people figure out what they can still actually buy while also keeping the Group Buys forum less cluttered.

There is already separation into sections:

geekhack marketplace

• vendors
• group buys
• artisans

What's the purpose of redoing it when it's precisely the division that's being argued against by certain people in this thread.

And the last thing you ask about--you can scan this thread for information about currently-running group buys:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57761.0

[mkawa]

ok, sorry guys, this is getting hot enough that it belongs in OT.

[jdeblese]

It sets limits on commercial party involvement into the community.  That is done on purpose, as explained above.  Otherwise any random vendor can come in and begin posting in the classifieds and group buys in volume, just to sell and contribute nothing else.  If there are no guidelines set to compartmentalize and limit commercial activity, the end result will be turning this site into Amazon or Taobao of mechanical keyboards, which is not the intention.

Ok, now I understand what you're getting at. It's not about giving an advantage to the community organizers, nor about a dislike for profit-seeking, but about the fact that GeekHack is primarily not a marketplace, regardless of who the seller is. In that case, you indeed don't want to make it too easy to launch ventures here, even if they do come from within the community but especially if they're championed by vendors.

[taylordcraig]

Regardless of my personal feelings as to what is and isn't considered a group buy, it has been decided that all "products" brought forth by Vendors and Artisans on this forum should be posted in their respective subforums. I really don't see where the confusion and malcontentedness is coming from, regarding where on the forum a thread is posted.

And to classify the Vendor and Artisan subforums as "ghettos" is an outright insult to the many talented Vendors and Artisans who are a part of our community.

Instead of browsing the forum in a rigid and focused manner, only clicking links to areas of ones own personal interest, one could always click the Unread or Spy links at the top, and view threads from various areas of the forum listed chronologically.

But that's just like, my opinion, man.

I realize I'm late to the party;
I tried doing this when first joining geekhack.
Frankly, there are FAR too many threads to read.
I spend more time than I would like on GH as it is,

That said. Photo has provided me with a satisfying answer.

[ideus]

Just refer to photo's thread on GBs. He is doing the compilation for us updated so is a one stop reference for current opportunities to buy things at GH.

[pbtforever]

Isn't this a vendor?

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62149.0

[SpAmRaY]

Isn't this a vendor?

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62149.0

[demik]

lol