[IC] krytox greases and oils

[Dubsgalore]

going to reiterate my interest, *very interested* 

[mkawa]

ok ok ok. i get the idea. TOMORROW I WILL START ORDERING STUFF

happy now? are you happy? I HOPE YOU'RE HAPPY

i'll bug matt3o and see if he has the time to get a super basic site up for orders

[WhiteFireDragon]

More

ok, so for the record, limmy's last buy was 101 oil with 203 grease. nubbinator and wfd both like 205 grease, and i'm starting to lean toward a slightly heavier grease. if you look at the application notes and composition documentation on dupont's site, the point of the PFPE greases is to stay stable whilst other things, the PTFE powder and a suspended oil do the actual lubrication. so, the oil actually does things like reduce coefficient of friction and the ptfe prevents wear and keeps separation between the parts.

target temperatures and viscosities are in this document: http://www2.dupont.com/Lubricants/en_US/assets/downloads/DuPont_Krytox_Typical_Properties_H-58510-7.pdf

the chemical structure of krytox products is in this document: http://www2.dupont.com/Lubricants/en_US/assets/downloads/Krytox_Overview_LowRes_H-58505-5.pdf

hence, i'm thinking 205 for the grease, and then anything between 101 and 103 for the oil. between 101 and 103 there are actually really only very subtle differences in viscosity; the differences are a tad larger 30-ish C, where switch crosspoints are going to sit, but the biggest difference between then is where they really thin out. it they were under quite a bit more pressure, say in high speed applications, it would be quite important to differentiate between the grades, but i can't see a huge reason to prefer one of those three oil grades over another for our applications.

anyway, unless there's additional input (i know limmy's occupied right now, but wfd and others who have used krytox extensively, please chime in here!), i'm thinking 205 and 103 or 102. this gives a nice spectrum of viscosities with different mix ratios.

You've looked at temperature data, but have you considered volatility? I was torn between 102 an 103 before I messed around with this stuff. 102 is much more volatile than 103 at temp range over 100C. We won't come anywhere near this temperature range, however this still tells us that 102 will be more volatile at room temperature. In the end, I went with 103 because I didn't want to have to reapply lube over the lifetime of the switch, since it's so tedious. Now I'm not saying 102 will vaporize (since no data is available at room temp), but if it were to vaporize, it'll do it at a faster rate than 103.

This is the same reason why GPL 100 can't be used. It'll evaporate in a matter of days. They're used on model car racing, but only applied right before the race event, otherwise it'll evaporate before the race starts.



 

Syringes are cheap as ****, they are suppose to be disposable after all. Overall, syringes should be cheaper than squeeze bottles. Syringes should be about a penny each if you buy 100.

In theory, having them shipped in syringes is great. However, have you actually tried it? I have free access to every syringe volume and needle gauge. It's not practical at all. Getting grease into the tubes is not easy, and it's messy. When you try to put it in, it'll just stick to the side and won't settle at the bottom. You can try to push it down, but a bunch will stick to whatever you're using to push it down, and there will be tons of air in there you can't get out by flicking the tube.
 
Then syringes will have to be shipped in boxes. Sending them in bubble mailers will risk it being pressed by other packages or rough handling during transit, and some will squirt out.
 
From experience of transferring lube, grease should be divided into tiny vials with caps, and oil should be shipped in squeeze bottles with needles. If packaging into syringes, I'm betting Ming will give up packaging these after a few
 

[Topre]

In theory, having them shipped in syringes is great. However, have you actually tried it? I have free access to every syringe volume and needle gauge. It's not practical at all. Getting grease into the tubes is not easy, and it's messy. When you try to put it in, it'll just stick to the side and won't settle at the bottom. You can try to push it down, but a bunch will stick to whatever you're using to push it down, and there will be tons of air in there you can't get out by flicking the tube.
 
Then syringes will have to be shipped in boxes. Sending them in bubble mailers will risk it being pressed by other packages or rough handling during transit, and some will squirt out.
 
From experience of transferring lube, grease should be divided into tiny vials with caps, and oil should be shipped in squeeze bottles with needles. If packaging into syringes, I'm betting Ming will give up packaging these after a few

Have you ever tried to use a syringe, well to fill another syringe? I'm sure that will work much better than using a spoon or squeezing it out of a bag. Not sure how well syringe caps work, but how well do they work? Ones that I get with thermal paste seems pretty reasonably tight. Also wrapping the syringe with cardboard will make it harder to push on.

[WhiteFireDragon]

Yes, I've tried that. My 205 came in a larger syringe, and I tried to transfer it to a 5cc syringe tube I think. Grease is not like a fluid. When it comes out of the needle, it's like a string. Once the "string" starts to curl, it'll stick to the sides and either won't drop down, and if it does, there will be a lot of air in the middle that you can't get out.

mkawa won't even get the luxury of transferring grease or oil from a large syringe. He gets them in one huge jar :/

[Topre]

Well in that case then I guess it's better to stick with the bottles. It's easier than experimenting with syringes to try to get them to work. I'm still going to check for the prices of prepackaged lubrication and hopefully they will end up about the same with bulk orders.

[mkawa]

More

ok, so for the record, limmy's last buy was 101 oil with 203 grease. nubbinator and wfd both like 205 grease, and i'm starting to lean toward a slightly heavier grease. if you look at the application notes and composition documentation on dupont's site, the point of the PFPE greases is to stay stable whilst other things, the PTFE powder and a suspended oil do the actual lubrication. so, the oil actually does things like reduce coefficient of friction and the ptfe prevents wear and keeps separation between the parts.

target temperatures and viscosities are in this document: http://www2.dupont.com/Lubricants/en_US/assets/downloads/DuPont_Krytox_Typical_Properties_H-58510-7.pdf

the chemical structure of krytox products is in this document: http://www2.dupont.com/Lubricants/en_US/assets/downloads/Krytox_Overview_LowRes_H-58505-5.pdf

hence, i'm thinking 205 for the grease, and then anything between 101 and 103 for the oil. between 101 and 103 there are actually really only very subtle differences in viscosity; the differences are a tad larger 30-ish C, where switch crosspoints are going to sit, but the biggest difference between then is where they really thin out. it they were under quite a bit more pressure, say in high speed applications, it would be quite important to differentiate between the grades, but i can't see a huge reason to prefer one of those three oil grades over another for our applications.

anyway, unless there's additional input (i know limmy's occupied right now, but wfd and others who have used krytox extensively, please chime in here!), i'm thinking 205 and 103 or 102. this gives a nice spectrum of viscosities with different mix ratios.

You've looked at temperature data, but have you considered volatility? I was torn between 102 an 103 before I messed around with this stuff. 102 is much more volatile than 103 at temp range over 100C. We won't come anywhere near this temperature range, however this still tells us that 102 will be more volatile at room temperature. In the end, I went with 103 because I didn't want to have to reapply lube over the lifetime of the switch, since it's so tedious. Now I'm not saying 102 will vaporize (since no data is available at room temp), but if it were to vaporize, it'll do it at a faster rate than 103.

This is the same reason why GPL 100 can't be used. It'll evaporate in a matter of days. They're used on model car racing, but only applied right before the race event, otherwise it'll evaporate before the race starts.



 

Syringes are cheap as ****, they are suppose to be disposable after all. Overall, syringes should be cheaper than squeeze bottles. Syringes should be about a penny each if you buy 100.

In theory, having them shipped in syringes is great. However, have you actually tried it? I have free access to every syringe volume and needle gauge. It's not practical at all. Getting grease into the tubes is not easy, and it's messy. When you try to put it in, it'll just stick to the side and won't settle at the bottom. You can try to push it down, but a bunch will stick to whatever you're using to push it down, and there will be tons of air in there you can't get out by flicking the tube.
 
Then syringes will have to be shipped in boxes. Sending them in bubble mailers will risk it being pressed by other packages or rough handling during transit, and some will squirt out.
 
From experience of transferring lube, grease should be divided into tiny vials with caps, and oil should be shipped in squeeze bottles with needles. If packaging into syringes, I'm betting Ming will give up packaging these after a few
 

yes, which is actually why i took a long hard look at all the data sheets and i think our oil of choice should actually be krytox 1506, not a GPL series. GPL 205 or 206 plus 1506 gives you about the same viscosity as 103, but with vapor pressure that is absolutely freaking ridiculously low. it won't evaporate ever, there is no chance. it just doesn't happen. if you look at the market, what's actually happened is that the only other PFPE and FPE vendor is fomblin which has no competitor to GPL 20x or GPL 10x, because they specialize in vacuum fluids. they also cut the price of those particular fluids in half. hence, dupont formulated 1506 which is basically an ultra-stable high temperature 103 and cut the price in half. so i will be placing an order and grabbing a couple kilos of these this week.^H^H^H^H early next week

yes, the problem with shipping syringes is that they need a lock and they're kind of a pain in the ass to fill with these high viscosity greases. i'm planning on more or less buying the same kinds of containers that limmy did, but with a bit more variety in needles for the oil bottles and a lot less precision. i'm not going to bother buying direct from china because it's such a pain in the ass. i'll pick up some containers in volume from either a local vendor or just us plastics.

i will of course also need to grab some dispensing hardware. the upshot of all this is that i can cut the oil cost _in half_ and keep a steady stock. i should have product ready to ship in a couple of weeks. thanks for the input everyone, and i hope you're ready to start lubing the crap out of everything.

speaking of, keep in mind that _nothing_ can dissolve these greases except for fluorinated solvents, and i'm not planning on buying any of those. on the one hand, these are completely inert materials. they do not conduct electricity. they do not erode any material known to man or woman. BUT they don't ever quite go away.

actually come to think of it, i'm sure there's something pretty common that can break those bonds, but i'm not enough of a chemist to come up with an offhand household example. i welcome any chemists in the house to stare at the polymer chain and figure out how to break it cheaply.

[Topre]

I was told GPL-20X is basically GPL-10X mixed with Dupont's PTFE lubricant. Or something like that.

Folding a piece of cardboard in half and placing the syringes in the middle should be good enough, a lock isn't really necessary. But because of the huge pockets of air, it may not be ideal to use syringes.

[mkawa]

it depends on how you define "mixed". here is the bible on PFPEs: http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA347666

yes, 20x is a grease that's formed by taking one of the FPE base oils and mixing it with PTFE powder. There are some variants with additives and so on, but generally, it would be silly for us to mix say 103 and 203. my current plan is to get 2kg of 1506, 0.5kg of 203 and 0.5kg of 205. i might scale that up one grade to 204 and 206 so that those who need really high temperature stability have an option, and it's quite easy to dilute a bit of 206 with 1506 to get something that has more or less the material properties of 205. actually, i think i'm going to do that

[blueSmoke]

not breaking up your discussion, but interested.

[MOZ]

Excited.

[korrelate]

I'm interested but completely unable to add to this discussion. When OP finalizes the composition (or constituents) could you please post them as such prior to ordering/payment? I'm very thankful that there are so many varied interests out here of GH!!! Thanks to everyone involved and WFD: you rock!

[mkawa]

i have ordered dispensing equipment and containers for a large number of orders. the idea is to have an uninterrupted supply for at least the next six months. i have also made contact with several people who can make this happen and hopefully get us some better pricing, and conveniently who provided applications engineering expertise as well.

thanks folks.

[JPG]

Thx Kawa for doing this!

[thadood]

Fantastic! I'll wanna snag some of this for sure.

[SeriouSSpotS]

i have ordered dispensing equipment and containers for a large number of orders. the idea is to have an uninterrupted supply for at least the next six months. i have also made contact with several people who can make this happen and hopefully get us some better pricing, and conveniently who provided applications engineering expertise as well.

thanks folks.

Thanks for doing this, can't wait

[oTurtlez]

Thanks Gucchi Ming. I'm definitely interested as well

[jonathanyu]

Interested

[mkawa]

Thanks Gucchi Ming. I'm definitely interested as well

:|

[oTurtlez]

Thanks Gucchi Ming. I'm definitely interested as well

:|

Still waiting for the petition to be properly recognized

[esoomenona]

#TEAMVERSACEMING

[oTurtlez]

#TEAMVERSACEMING

Ya know, when I was getting new glasses I looked at a couple of Versace frames and despised each and every one. Ended up with some Ralph Lauren Polo frames.

#TEAMPOLOMING

[esoomenona]

Polo? Plebe...

I'm rocking the D&Gs.

[oTurtlez]

Polo? Plebe...

I'm rocking the D&Gs.

I had a really nice Police frame but one of the nose pads snapped off and the optometrist's office stopped carrying them so I had to get another frame :/

[Topre]

Mwaka, I just PM'ed you a link to 1kg of Krytox 1506 for $35. You should totally buy it as soon as possible if you do plan on using Krytox 1506. It should sell out within 24 hours.

[pmh1410]

Mwaka, I just PM'ed you a link to 1kg of Krytox 1506 for $35. You should totally buy it as soon as possible if you do plan on using Krytox 1506. It should sell out within 24 hours.

[mkawa]

folks,

i will have an uninterrupted supply of krytox oil and grease for sale for the foreseeable future starting either next week or the week after that.

the oils and greases themselves will come in spillproof vials, but i will also have applicator sets that will consist of a 3cc syringe and high quality 27ga luer lock needle. the geekhacker price should be as good or better than previous buys. hopefully as we progress, i will be able to provide different application hardware. however, i spent something like 10s of hours on the phone with an applications engineer for dupont and we have determined an optimal mix of oil and grease for our application, so i will _not_ be offering a variety of krytox oils and greases. I will be offering GPL 206, and krytox VPF 1506 oil (initially i will have a small stock of GPL 103 as a substitute while we wait on lead time for 1506 manufacturing -- i'm not entirely sure what i actually just ordered off ebay, despite the listing description, so we'll see if i have some 1506 to start out with as well). our lubricants will be 100% genuine and will be supplied directly by dupont.

[MOZ]

Yaabaadabadooo!

[Sai]

folks,

i will have an uninterrupted supply of krytox oil and grease for sale for the foreseeable future starting either next week or the week after that.

the oils and greases themselves will come in spillproof vials, but i will also have applicator sets that will consist of a 3cc syringe and high quality 27ga luer lock needle. the geekhacker price should be as good or better than previous buys. hopefully as we progress, i will be able to provide different application hardware. however, i spent something like 10s of hours on the phone with an applications engineer for dupont and we have determined an optimal mix of oil and grease for our application, so i will _not_ be offering a variety of krytox oils and greases. I will be offering GPL 206, and krytox VPF 1506 oil (initially i will have a small stock of GPL 103 as a substitute while we wait on lead time for 1506 manufacturing -- i'm not entirely sure what i actually just ordered off ebay, despite the listing description, so we'll see if i have some 1506 to start out with as well). our lubricants will be 100% genuine and will be supplied directly by dupont.

so the plan changed from 103 to 1506 ?
how is 1506 ? i've never used and i only used 205 and 103 before.

[SpAmRaY]

folks,

i will have an uninterrupted supply of krytox oil and grease for sale for the foreseeable future starting either next week or the week after that.

the oils and greases themselves will come in spillproof vials, but i will also have applicator sets that will consist of a 3cc syringe and high quality 27ga luer lock needle. the geekhacker price should be as good or better than previous buys. hopefully as we progress, i will be able to provide different application hardware. however, i spent something like 10s of hours on the phone with an applications engineer for dupont and we have determined an optimal mix of oil and grease for our application, so i will _not_ be offering a variety of krytox oils and greases. I will be offering GPL 206, and krytox VPF 1506 oil (initially i will have a small stock of GPL 103 as a substitute while we wait on lead time for 1506 manufacturing -- i'm not entirely sure what i actually just ordered off ebay, despite the listing description, so we'll see if i have some 1506 to start out with as well). our lubricants will be 100% genuine and will be supplied directly by dupont.

This is good to know, is the market large for 'fake' krytox products?

[mkawa]

folks,

i will have an uninterrupted supply of krytox oil and grease for sale for the foreseeable future starting either next week or the week after that.

the oils and greases themselves will come in spillproof vials, but i will also have applicator sets that will consist of a 3cc syringe and high quality 27ga luer lock needle. the geekhacker price should be as good or better than previous buys. hopefully as we progress, i will be able to provide different application hardware. however, i spent something like 10s of hours on the phone with an applications engineer for dupont and we have determined an optimal mix of oil and grease for our application, so i will _not_ be offering a variety of krytox oils and greases. I will be offering GPL 206, and krytox VPF 1506 oil (initially i will have a small stock of GPL 103 as a substitute while we wait on lead time for 1506 manufacturing -- i'm not entirely sure what i actually just ordered off ebay, despite the listing description, so we'll see if i have some 1506 to start out with as well). our lubricants will be 100% genuine and will be supplied directly by dupont.

so the plan changed from 103 to 1506 ?
how is 1506 ? i've never used and i only used 205 and 103 before.

1506 is a rough equivalent of 103 but for obscure technical reasons is even _more_ inert than 103. it's also cheaper due to competition in the VPF space.

[Xenderwind]

i will have an uninterrupted supply of krytox oil and grease for sale for the foreseeable future starting either next week or the week after that.

 the geekhacker price should be as good or better than previous buys. however, i spent something like 10s of hours on the phone with an applications engineer for dupont and we have determined an optimal mix of oil and grease for our application, so i will _not_ be offering a variety of krytox oils and greases. our lubricants will be 100% genuine and will be supplied directly by dupont.

All of this sounds awesome .  I'm honestly surprised they cooperated with you for that long, glad to hear this is moving forward so quickly!

[mkawa]

PFPE oils are a clear, odorless, tasteless liquid with about the consistency of water. so is water, and every other non-petro oil. the only way to tell whether you have an actual PFPE polymer chain and high purity involves testing that can be done in-house by about 3-5 companies in the world, and two of them manufacture them.

further, there is a counterfeit and 'cut materials' market for everything. fake sandisk cards are my favorite example: http://damien.douxchamps.net/photo/fake-cf/

fake batteries are another fun one. eg http://www.dgrin.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=31544&d=1285119843

[Xenderwind]

I was expecting those sandisk cards to be worse.  I've seen pictures of harddrives from ebay just being like a usb port with metal screws/bolts hotglued down.

[mkawa]

the fact that they're so convincing is scary, highly highly illegal, and the really dangerous thing if you're a user. it's easy to pass off bad flash _chips_ in good looking housings and packaging and make a huge ton of money. basically, these guys have an inlet from the reject pile of flash factories and are passing off chips that they know did not pass QC. same with the batteries, except that it's even worse, as lithium iron batteries have this nasty tendency to explode.

[danielucf]

I am in for some lube my supply is running low.

Out of curiosity have you read about tribolube 71? Its application is normally for o-rings in scuba gear but supposedly one of the lubes in the krytox line is also used for the same thing which is why I purchased it. It is quite thick but on switches with heavy springs like blacks it feels great, and is also good on stabilizers. At roughly half the price it seems really good for the keyboard enthusiast on a budget.

[germy]

In!

[mkawa]

in lube terms, tribolube is less than 50% of the lube that krytox is. volatility is much higher, and despite their claims, the material properties show that it is significantly less inert. as they point out, it will actually corrode some metals. wat. further, it's about 2x as thick as krytox, and i can't find a separate oil base for it to thin it down with.

basically, krytox for the win.

[MOZ]

Don't confuse the man. Krytox FTW!!!!

[korrelate]

So are we close to a GB on this yet?

[SpAmRaY]

So are we close to a GB on this yet?

I think were just waiting on the product to arrive to mkawa and packaging etc.

[mkawa]

grease arrives friday. storefront will hopefully go up next week.

[SeriouSSpotS]

Can't wait

[mkawa]

for all those folks who keep PMing me, _yes_ geekhackers is a company that is me that is vending stuff that the community wants and continually bugs me about with proceeds going to fund community efforts. we will have a real actual online store that you will be able to buy these products from. no more sporadic GBs, no more trying to figure out which krytox to buy. as i understand it, i have become a dupont krytox vendor, they now know that we're using their lubes for keyboard switches and they have worked with me to find an optimal application combination of their product for our use case. i will be vending that optimal application combination at the best prices i have been able to get (and i have checked with previous GB leaders and it is comparable to the best prices people have previously gotten), except that i will have technical and supply chain support from dupont.

tldr; lube for everyone: geekhackers.com e-store will go up in a week +/-.

[SpAmRaY]

In other words #toolegittoquit

[lcs]

Best lube news ever

[MOZ]

Wow! mkawa! Great news!

[korrelate]

Excellent, excellent, excellent! GLWSF!

[fydo]

This is great news! As a "lube noob", I really appreciate all the thought and effort that has gone into selecting the best product and making it available. Thanks!

[MiV]

Definitely interested in this. I haven't gotten a chance to lube my RK9000 since I gave it a 90% iso bath. Will be watching.