[IC] Chainmaille cable armor - Updated 12/31/2013

[CalmB4tehPwn]

NEW INFORMATION IN THE FINAL POST

Hey guys,

Well, I've been floating around for awhile now, and I think I've finally found a way to put my hobby to use in this beautiful community of ours.

Screw cable sleeves, how about Cable Armor?

Now, I'm working with another member of our fine forum to provide complete USB cables, with armor. I also want to offer the armor seperately for those of you who would like to armor a cable up yourself. Since each cable will require enough rings to meet my supplier's MOQ, each piece is only as limited as your budget. I'll be getting my hand on a piece of USB cable in the next week or two (the same size cable that will be available for sale) so I can do pictures and give you guys a feel of what's available as well as work out a final price. Now, a tentative price, with USB cable included is $150. That's a stainless steel or aluminum armor (colors are the same cost), in the most basic styles, pictures below. Titanium is also an option for any big spenders, but this will get prohibitively expensive, and I wont even get into potential costs unless someone is adamant. Throwing out a figure, we're looking at closer to $300.

Now most of the cost on this is coming from my time spent on each product (unless you're looking at four feet of titanium rings), and so it may come down as I realize this project goes quicker than anticipated, or up, or even scrapped, if it takes so long that the price just doesn't make sense, and I can't justify spending that much time on a single piece.

I'd like to shoot for a run of ten of these, and since I want one myself, then we've got nine spots. There's a good possibility that I may never do another run of these, and possibly go into a well of depression after doing ten, four foot cables. I'd like to see four people sign up before we push forward, so we're not spending an absurd amount of money on shipping costs from Canada to Korea (where I'll be working on the project)

So, tentative cost is $150 in stainless steel
probably $140 in plain aluminum, and $145 in colored aluminum.

or $125 with no USB cable.
Prices would be higher for a 6ft cable, closer to the $200 range, potentially.
I wont know specifically how much prices will differ between materials, or lengths, until I've mocked up 1 ft lengths, and will use them to estimate time, and material costs from there.


Concept image:


This is a weave called Captive Inverted round, and the center is hollow. There are a few variations, to include standard inverted round which would be the same but remove the red and silver rings from this weave, leaving the cable beneath significantly more visible. This would probably cut the price down $10.

These cables would still hold the ability to bend, but would adhere to a more stringent bend radius. Once I get a foot cable mocked up, I'll take pictures at the furthest said weave will bend.

Now, as I said, you can choose any colors your want, and are not tied to going with a majority vote. Even to the point where we could consider a rainbow cable. Let me know what you want!

Also, I might be open to trades for this group buy for my time. You'd still need to pay the 25 for the USB cable, but I might be open to waive the 125 on my side for a keyboard. Just an idea.

[CalmB4tehPwn]

color post!

Blac and Blue:


Purple and Gold


Green and Orange


Red and Violet


Bright Aluminum and Stainless Steel



and NEW ALUMINUM COLORS! WHEW
What a time to be alive.

Yellow and Bronze:

(bronze colored aluminum)

Lavender and Sky Blue:


Pink and Seafoam:


Ice and Champagne:

[SpAmRaY]

Cool idea.

[mkawa]

YES!!!!

but why only for cables?

[CalmB4tehPwn]

YES!!!!

but why only for cables?

what else are you thinking?

[germy]

Very cool idea.

[MOZ]

Nice idea, but the price, I can understand, it is just I can't get around to spending $150 for a cable

[Latin00032]

I wish there was at least one finished so we can see how the USB heads appear on each side.

I know you are working on examples.

[do_Og@n]

Depending on price I would be down for this.

It might even hold the weight of a Model M while you swing it at some zombies.  ) )

[Photekq]

It's a really cool idea, and a beautiful result (going by your concept image).

I understand this is a hell of a lot of work, and the price is totally justified.. but it's simply far too much for me, especially since it's just a cable in the end.

[Rayne]

very awesome idea!
the price does scare me a little tho, but i might be interested depending on what the final price will be, also will want to see the pictures of it once you finish one.

[demik]

YES!!!!

but why only for cables?

what else are you thinking?

condoms

[CalmB4tehPwn]

I'm glad you guys like the idea. And I know the price it hefty, but four feet of chain is no joke, and I'm already cutting myself short on the value of my time. I figured if people were spending 200 dollars on a single keycap, there's got to be at least a few people willing to put up 150 for an extravagant cable.

I wish there was at least one finished so we can see how the USB heads appear on each side.

I know you are working on examples.

You've actually just touched on the biggest variable in this whole project. How to terminate the ends so that it looks complete, and intentional.
I've got this mental plan for how to do it, and I'm not sure I could explain it very well, but by halving the ring size, and doubling the amount of rings, at the ends, we can taper down far enough that the armor should fit under shrink tubing. There's be a ridge, from the last row of rings, angling down toward the usb (ridge on side away from USB) holding the armor in place.

I've got to work it all out, and I can't until I've got a cable in hand to work with, but I'll be giving you guys updates as I work out all the kinks.

I'm thinking I'll do my own cable first, to work out all the kinks, and so you guys can get a visual of the finished product.
Since we don't have an MOQ to meet, and we're not limited in the ways of a normal group buy, and since each cable will take such a large amount of time, I'm thinking we set it up, that if you want to pay now (or rather once I've got a concrete answer on a final price) then you reserve first spot in the queue. If you want to wait until there's a finished product, before putting up money, or even wait until the queue has gone down, that's perfectly okay, you'll just be waiting significantly longer.

Also, if anyone decides to put up money before my own cable is finished, and wants their cable done before my own, that's perfectly okay! And if there ends up being any complications that prevent orders from being completed, -FULL- refunds will be given out, and I'll be eating costs on any materials and shipping that may have already been purchased.


Now, since this is the first time I've ever done anything like this, if you think there's a better way I could go about it, let me know!

Also, remember. Keyboards are accepted as payment! Send me a Filco and you can be top of the list.

[MOZ]

Would you be open to selling the rings only, if someone would like to make the chain themselves?

[CalmB4tehPwn]

Well, as I said, the MOQ is pretty low for these. Once I work out how many are needed for the project, I'm happy pointing any interested parties to my supplier, where they can get the tools required as well as the materials.

I will say, however, if you've never done chainmaille before, this is a TERRIBLE first project. Not because it's overly difficult, but because it'll take so long, and it's that sort where from one day to the next, it'll look like you're getting so little done. I'd rather not point people this way only for them to get discouraged and have wasted their money.

[Topre]

Well, the pictures you posted has a watermark of a supplier for those rings. Regardless of who you are getting the rings from, they are pretty cheap so it won't matter if you point people to it now or later.

[YoungMichael88]

A friend and I dabbled in making chain stuff like this. I made myself a chain mail hackie-sack and a beer bottle cozy which my ex girlfriend "lost". It takes a loong time to do and is extremely tedious work so I totally understand the cost.

[CalmB4tehPwn]

Well, the pictures you posted has a watermark of a supplier for those rings. Regardless of who you are getting the rings from, they are pretty cheap so it won't matter if you point people to it now or later.

Oh, yeah. I'm not trying to hide my supplier from anybody, and a simple google search will quickly and ultimately reveal that TRL (the ring lord) is the unequivocal king of the chainmaille supply world. Their prices, quality, consistency, and customer service are unparalleled in this niche market.

Also, prices may appear "cheap" but four or six feet of chain, and you're talking potentially thousands of rings, depending on the weave and size of said rings. They're reasonable, and materials like Stainless Steel and Aluminum, as I previously mentioned, aren't the reason for the high price.

Either way, I'd wait until I have everything hammered out, so I can tell any parties interested in doing it themselves, exactly what size rings, and how many, to purchase. You can poke around TRL all you want right now, but I unless you're a chainmailler or an engineer, the numbers most likely wont mean very much to you, and a project like this has never been done before, to my knowledge, so there's no other precedent for you to go off of, except my own.

I wasn't trying to keep people from the site, only trying to keep people from wasting their money on a size of rings that are useless to them.

So I'll say again, I'll happily point people to my supplier, once I have the details worked out.

[germy]

Do you think you would be able to weave these differently hence using less/more rings? Options always help stuff sell. Just a suggestion.

[Topre]

Well, the pictures you posted has a watermark of a supplier for those rings. Regardless of who you are getting the rings from, they are pretty cheap so it won't matter if you point people to it now or later.

Oh, yeah. I'm not trying to hide my supplier from anybody, and a simple google search will quickly and ultimately reveal that TRL (the ring lord) is the unequivocal king of the chainmaille supply world. Their prices, quality, consistency, and customer service are unparalleled in this niche market.

Also, prices may appear "cheap" but four or six feet of chain, and you're talking potentially thousands of rings, depending on the weave and size of said rings. They're reasonable, and materials like Stainless Steel and Aluminum, as I previously mentioned, aren't the reason for the high price.

Either way, I'd wait until I have everything hammered out, so I can tell any parties interested in doing it themselves, exactly what size rings, and how many, to purchase. You can poke around TRL all you want right now, but I unless you're a chainmailler or an engineer, the numbers most likely wont mean very much to you, and a project like this has never been done before, to my knowledge, so there's no other precedent for you to go off of, except my own.

I wasn't trying to keep people from the site, only trying to keep people from wasting their money on a size of rings that are useless to them.

So I'll say again, I'll happily point people to my supplier, once I have the details worked out.

I think your prices are fair for the amount of work that has to be done. I agree that it is hard to get right for someone messing around with these things for the first time. However, some people don't like to wait and would rather spend some money trying out new things and jumping in head first.

[CalmB4tehPwn]

Do you think you would be able to weave these differently hence using less/more rings? Options always help stuff sell. Just a suggestion.

Oh, I'll definitely have a couple weave options, though for the most part, the inverted and captive inverted round weaves will be the least expensive. Most other weaves that could be used for this include significantly more rings, and more time involved. Though, I'll have sample shots of what I can do, and let you guys decide on the price.

[Sent]

Pretty interesting stuff...I'll definitely be keeping an eye on this.  Like others said...cost is the major issue for me.

[germy]

Oh, I'll definitely have a couple weave options, though for the most part, the inverted and captive inverted round weaves will be the least expensive. Most other weaves that could be used for this include significantly more rings, and more time involved. Though, I'll have sample shots of what I can do, and let you guys decide on the price.

Looking forward to checking out the variations. It is pricey but definitely fair for the amount of time and effort involved imo.

[jonathanyu]

this is really cool. but for the price of a cablr, i can't afford it

[MKULTRA]

Really sleek idea.  However I could not justify the price.

[asura]

This is a weave called Captive Inverted round, and the center is hollow. There are a few variations, to include standard inverted round which would be the same but remove the red and silver rings from this weave, leaving the cable beneath significantly more visible. This would probably cut the price down $10.

Looks very similar to the Byzantine or Kings link - jewellery.

Very nice work by the way.

[Noko]

Cool idea.  I do leatherworking as a hobby, and was thinking of doing something similar but with leather braiding.  Might put up my own IC as well if people are interested in new materials for custom cables.

[CalmB4tehPwn]

Leather braiding might prove a better price point for those on a budget. You shouldn't be looking at quite as many hours in build time.

This is a weave called Captive Inverted round, and the center is hollow. There are a few variations, to include standard inverted round which would be the same but remove the red and silver rings from this weave, leaving the cable beneath significantly more visible. This would probably cut the price down $10.

Looks very similar to the Byzantine or Kings link - jewellery.

Very nice work by the way.

Byzantine (King's Link) is in the same family of weaves as the Round, and Inverted round subfamilies. If I were to break this down, Byzantine is two biased (four sides) where the two rings of each side come into the middle of the weave and lay atop eachother, leaving no room for a cable, where Inverted Round is 3 bias (6 sides) creating an open hexagon (two alternating open triangles) through the center of the weave. I'm eager to get my hands on some USB so I can start playing around. If the Inverted round works the way I hope (and doesn't take as long as I fear) there's a possibility of bringing that price point down (though, ultimately, the price change wont be drastic. I'd like to shoot for $120 total price, before shipping, but please don't throw that number back in my face if it proves unrealistic.)

[jil_jil32]

I really want to see several pics of the completed cables...

[CPTBadAss]

Why shouldn't we say anything if the price point is bad? I know you take a lot of time to work on this and it looks amazing but $120 for a USB cable...that's just insane.

I also think the markup on Clacks and GirlDC cap prices are outrageous too so that gives you a reference point for my opinion.

[CalmB4tehPwn]

I wasn't trying to imply that you shouldn't say anything. I'm here for feedback. If I didn't want feedback, I wouldn't have posted here. Just trying to present my case for the cable armor.

It's for people who have everything. They've found their favorite switch, they've composed their favorite keyboard, they're going through novelty keys like crazy but they need that final touch on their desk. The one thing that'll complete it all.

I'm not looking for 50, or 30 people who want in on this, because I know the price is high. I would argue that it's not outrageous, because people spend thousands of dollars on jewelry for their body, and I think most of the people on this site are more interested for jewelry for their desk. That's what this is.

So I'm just looking for 5 people who are interested enough in getting that final piece, a detachable USB cable with armor, for their desk and can afford to put roughly $150 (or a keyboard!) to make it happen.

[esoomenona]

In opposition to everyone else who says the price is bad, I disagree. If the materials and workmanship warrant the price, then that is the price they should be. Who else is offering this type of item? I'm not saying that he's jacking up the price because he's the only one selling them, because I don't believe that is the case. I truly believe that you're not considering the work and time going into these, and there isn't really anything on the market to compare them to.

And lastly, if the price is out of your range, I can understand saying that, but does that really warrant you saying that the price is incorrect?

[CPTBadAss]

And lastly, if the price is out of your range, I can understand saying that, but does that really warrant you saying that the price is incorrect?

Why should we not include our input if it is negative? I believe constructive criticism is a good thing, positive or negative.

[MOZ]

I will be honest, I can understand the price, given how time consuming it is. I feel it isn't hard but very time consuming.

For someone like me, staying in India, it is hard to value labour, as it is so damn cheap here , but I get where you are coming from.

What I would suggest CalmB4tehPwn is, don't hurry it, find out how long it will take to make one cable, number of rings used, etc, etc, and then review the price if need be.

Also, once you get the details sorted, make DIY kits for those who want to do it themselves, charge some amount for your time for sorting or what not, or just create a cart that can be shared on TRL.

[Photoelectric]

It's like saying that $400-600 Korean customs are overpriced and unnecessary--perfectly reasonable when you can do well with a $30 keyboard for a few years.  It's really the same thing: if a regular plastic cable is all you care about for functionality, you're not likely to spend even $30 on a custom sleeved cable (I mean, come on, pull some fabric shell over a cable, solder it up, and call it a day--do you see where Im going with it?)  It's for those who want every bit of their favorite items as beautiful, custom, and high quality as possible.

[CPTBadAss]

Things that come to mind for my argument include the Talon keyboard and a former GB ran by a member here for Clear switches. Should we pay $1.20/switch for Clears? Should I not say anything about that? Should we not say that the Talon keyboard is a cool concept but his fundraising goal is way too high?

Maybe I phrased it wrong when I said the price is bad. What I'm trying to say is that the price point is a bit steep for an unproven concept.

But I'm going to stop playing Negative Nancy here. It's a cool idea and I hope you do well. I really like when new people come into GH with fresh ideas.

[esoomenona]

It's really subjective. If you're of the opinion that the price is outrageous because your opinion of the end product doesn't take into account all the variables, then you will see it as such. This is what I see: you're the only person saying that the price is outrageous. The general consensus thus far has been that the product is nice, but the price is out of their range. And that's understandable. If the general consensus was that the price was completely unjustified, such as your examples, then I would see your point.

[CalmB4tehPwn]

It's like saying that $400-600 Korean customs are overpriced and unnecessary--perfectly reasonable when you can do well with a $30 keyboard for a few years.  It's really the same thing: if a regular plastic cable is all you care about for functionality, you're not likely to spend even $30 on a custom sleeved cable (I mean, come on, pull some fabric shell over a cable, solder it up, and call it a day--do you see where Im going with it?)  It's for those who want every bit of their favorite items as beautiful, custom, and high quality as possible.

Exactly. This product isn't for everybody. It couldn't be. I have to assemble these one ring at a time, and it's going to take me a long time to do that.

Think of it this way. Am I out of line for asking 60-90 dollars for an intricate stainless steel necklace? Well, if you consider that's what, 16 inches? That cost is for my time, the materials are inexpensive. Now the cable armor -should- go faster than making a necklace, bigger rings, simpler weave, but bigger rings means each ring is harder to work, and takes more time to make right. Then you think, I'm taking that example necklace at 60 dollars (what I would charge for general choker length, simple weave) and I'm multiplying it by four. That's 240, just for materials and time. I'm charging HALF of that for you guys, because I want to see this happen. By the way, never buy anything off of my etsy shop, hit me up on the forums and I'll give you a deal.

I am marking the value for my time as low as I'm willing to go, and consider the venture worthwhile. If there is not a single person who values the product, as much as I value my time? Well ****. Then I walk away. Not a big deal.

Thank you for your input, Cap. I value the criticism, because I wouldn't want a bunch of people to blow smoke up my ass, and I spend time arranging materials and getting everything ready, then moving forward and having absolutely no support. But you don't need to argue your point. You can't conceive spending $150 on a cable. No cable, unless dipped in gold, could be worth that much to you. Got it. Hopefully there's others who disagree with you.

Also, I don't think the Talon Keyboard should be part of that argument. I think his expectations aren't unjustified. His expectations from that medium of resource gathering are entirely unjustified, because he'll never get 400k from Kickstarter. He needs to go sell his product to a company already in the market, and he might just get what his profits would have been from the kickstarter project, were it to succeed. So I think his product might just be worth what he thinks it's worth, but I also think he's 2 years behind the curve, and needs to make some tweaks to the design, and get the hell off of kickstarter.

The difference is that you think my expectations of selling a single product are unreasonable, and you think his expectations of selling enough product to meet his goal are unreasonable.

And in one of those cases, I hope you're wrong.

As I said though. I've got no problem walking away from this project. I wont take it to the grave with me. I'll make one for me, give you guys a full photoshoot, and anyone who wants one can jump on. If nobody wants one, I move on with my life, and maybe even trade my own cable in the classifieds at some point. Because a keyboard is more valuable to me than a cable. But these are my skills, this is what I've got, and I'm humbly offering them to the community. Take it or leave it, and arguing how little you think my product is worth, isn't going to change the fact that I'll try. I'll reach the same point either way. I'll be standing in group buy with a prototype cable looking for people interested.

[WhiteFireDragon]

Hey this is a pretty cool idea that hasn't been presented before.

If we wanted to buy all the stuff to do it ourselves, roughly how long would making a 3-4 feet cable take, assuming we become efficient after the first 15 min?

[CalmB4tehPwn]

total hours? I don't even know. But I will post how long it takes me, and depending on your competency on stuff like this, probably add 20% to 50% in time.

You're probably looking at least 20 hours + of work time as a first time chainmailler.

Unfortunately, the problem with doing it yourself, is if you're using annodized aluminum, you can use the inexpensive pliers (like 4 bucks a plier, and you need two) but you're bound to slip the pliers a good amount and scrape the color off. If you use stainless steel, you can't use the standard sized pliers and need to get the big ol' boys, which add to work time, because they're not spring activated.

I would say, if you have super steady, and pretty strong hands, annodized aluminum would be a safe bet, but go into it expecting to mar the rings a bit, plain aluminum is a great choice, because you can mar the rings and it's not super noticable, and stainless steel I would advise against, in that size ring.

Unless I can use smaller rings than I expect. Again, this will all reveal itself when I get a cable on hand and can start working on it myself.


So, can I assume there's much more interest in DIY kits than complete armored cables?

Because I can do up a step by step instruction and do the kits right, include a two plier set of chainmaille pliers, the rings needed (in various colors).
Keep in mind you would have to be familiar with soldering USB ends, or send the finished armor piece off to one of our fine community solder soldiers to be finished.

Would you like me to include USB cable, and ends, and everything else? Or assume that you're already familiar with with USBs, and have that stuff, or that you'll send it off to someone, and wont need it anyways?

And again, we'll have to wait until I can see how many rings and such we're looking at before getting a price on kits, but we're probably looking at the $40 range shipped (pliers included)

And for anyone that does get a kit, and enjoys it, I will happily guide to supplier and tutorial websites so they can keep the craft going.

[MOZ]

$40 and 20 hours only for one chainmaille armor cable?

I am sold, please proceed with working on your tutorial sir. No time to waste.

[CalmB4tehPwn]

Hah, alright.

So you guys want just the Chainmaille kit? Or would you want a USB kit in addition to the chainmaille kit?

[MOZ]

I think there are three things youbcah have as part of the kit:
Rings
Usb kit
Tools

I'd take rings and usb.

[CalmB4tehPwn]

Make it a la cart, then?

[HoffmanMyster]

Make it a la cart, then?

That's my vote.  This is interesting to me, though I'm not sure if I would commit to it at this point (this point in time, not the price point - price is good for DIY set).  But either way, I think this method offers you the best way to get the most people interested.

[MOZ]

Yes, have these options:

- Rings
- USB Cable Kit
- Tools
- Assembly Charges

So people can opt for what they want, either to take on the challenge and make the cable themselves, understand that 20 hours is not a lot for many people here who spend hours on ends RnDing, assembling, stickering, lubing, modding keyboards.

Those who don't want the hassle can get it assembled.

Have plenty of colors and weaves, so a number of rings kits depending on weave as well, and you should be good to go, people love choices!

[elton5354]

How many rings do you estimate to make a 3 ft or 6 ft cable? It's $5-6 per oz (440 rings)

[esoomenona]

I personally think you shouldn't offer a DIY kit or a tutorial. You are providing a service here. Why would you offer all the help people need to take that service away from you?

[tjcaustin]

I personally think you shouldn't offer a DIY kit or a tutorial. You are providing a service here. Why would you offer all the help people need to take that service away from you?

Probably because offering DIY kits doesn't degrade the amount of people that will just pay him instead of doing it themselves?  Much like the plethora of DIY USB cable threads haven't killed off the cable makers here.

[CalmB4tehPwn]

Honestly, moose. I think you'll be surprised how quickly people realize chainmailling is not for them. I'm not saying it's the most difficult thing in the world, but it takes a special breed of person to be able to make it through 20 hours of chainmaille. If people want the option, I'll give it to them, but they're going to have so many warped rings, and misaligned rings, that people might start to reconsider my offer.

But the GHers have spoken, they want DIY. Who am I to turn them down?

you say 20 hours isn't a lot of time to a lot of people, but I look around at all of the unstarted, or half finished DIYs in the classifieds, that I'll have to disagree with you. But if you want it, I'll help you get it. Some of you will finish the project and have a half decent cable to admire, and maybe even a couple of you will find out that you have a knack for it and I'll have a new chainmailling buddy, but this project is not for the undetermined. You have to be stalwart to take this on. I'd rather not send out 30 DIYs and find two people actually do it. I don't care that much about the money, I'd rather you end up with a work of art, even if it's not mine.

in regards to offering different weave kits? Hah, no. I'm already setting you up for failure by starting with an intermediate weave. There's no way I'll show you how to do weaves that will take either three times longer to complete, or require at least some background in the concept behind chainmaille, and an understanding in how rings interact and depend on eachother.

If you want to look up weaves on your own, and buy your own rings, I wont stop you, but I wont set up you guys up for failure by making DiY kits that are beyond a beginner's abilities. I'm not going to sit here and tell you what you can't do, but -most- of you cannot just jump into an advanced weave, and so I'm not even going to give the option.

Colors? Hell yeah. I'll have all the colors listed, and TRL gives bulk discounts on total amount of rings, as opposed to specific sizes, materials, or colors. So it doesn't even benefit us to order all one color. Depending on the ring size, I may not offer stainless steel in the DiY kits, firstly, it would take a different type of pliers if the steel is too thick, and second, nobody should start chainmaille on anything harder to work than 18g stainless steel.