Author Topic: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)  (Read 142319 times)

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Offline MOZ

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #300 on: Sat, 07 September 2013, 08:13:09 »
any in here,can make design plate? :D

Check the CAD thread, and learnt o make it yourself. :D

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #301 on: Sat, 07 September 2013, 09:12:22 »
any in here,can make design plate? :D

Sure, just let me know what your design is.
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Offline TD22057

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #302 on: Sat, 07 September 2013, 10:16:08 »
any in here,can make design plate? :D

Check the CAD thread, and learnt o make it yourself. :D

I agree - download one of the free CAD programs (I used DraftSight) and one of the .dwg files and try things out.  I started doing this earlier this year and it was really very easy and a lot of fun to play around with different designs.

Offline yasuo

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #303 on: Sat, 07 September 2013, 11:14:49 »
Check the CAD thread, and learnt o make it yourself. :D
I agree - download one of the free CAD programs (I used DraftSight) and one of the .dwg files and try things out.  I started doing this earlier this year and it was really very easy and a lot of fun to play around with different designs.
Maybe,i will learn it!
Thanks man :thumb:
Sure, just let me know what your design is.
Like this,but ALPS :D
http://imgur.com/ynhSQLU
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Offline Melvang

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #304 on: Tue, 17 September 2013, 09:47:00 »
Check the CAD thread, and learnt o make it yourself. :D
I agree - download one of the free CAD programs (I used DraftSight) and one of the .dwg files and try things out.  I started doing this earlier this year and it was really very easy and a lot of fun to play around with different designs.
Maybe,i will learn it!
Thanks man :thumb:
Sure, just let me know what your design is.
Like this,but ALPS :D
http://imgur.com/ynhSQLU

I believe that a PCB is still required for use of ALPS switches.  Don't remember why though, just something I think I remember hearing around here.

Also how well does PC IDE ribbon cables work for hard wiring a matrix and soldering to the teensy?  And 23 wires needed for a TKL layout with just one LED for Caps Lock status, correct?
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Offline Tarzan

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #305 on: Tue, 17 September 2013, 10:11:30 »
You know, I read these threads, and they are certainly inspiring.  I can conceivably do the soldering, wiring, attaching the Teensy, making a cable.  But I'm always reminded of the cartoon below when it gets to the programming step.

35755-0

I've got a new project board that's prompting me to look into hardwiring/Teensy converters again; the Televideo 925.  It's apparently a "dumb terminal" keyboard; plate-mounted switches, each one has two connections, and the connecting cable only has four wires, so it looks like it it would be simple enough to mod.  And I've perused Lowpoly's mod page (beautiful work!), so I think I can see where he has wired up all the switches in rows and columns.

So once it's all attached to the Teensy, and code (Hasu's?) is loaded on the Teensy, how do you tell it which wires go to which rows/columns?  Are there some connections on the Teensy you are supposed to use?  Or does it matter?   :confused:

What I probably need to do is find a vendor to code the thing, once I do all the soldering. 

Offline Matt3o

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #306 on: Tue, 17 September 2013, 10:24:06 »
new creature


Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #307 on: Tue, 17 September 2013, 10:36:45 »
So once it's all attached to the Teensy, and code (Hasu's?) is loaded on the Teensy, how do you tell it which wires go to which rows/columns?  Are there some connections on the Teensy you are supposed to use?  Or does it matter?   :confused:

If you're using hasu's TMK firmware, it's in the matrix.c file. If I can figure it out, pretty much anyone can. If you need help, and have the matrix pin out, I can help you with it, or there is the TMK firmware thread.
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Offline TheFlyingRaccoon

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #308 on: Tue, 17 September 2013, 10:51:17 »
new creature

As someone who owns a HHKB and likes blue switches, this is amazing! I demand more pics.  :p
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Offline Tarzan

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #309 on: Tue, 17 September 2013, 10:52:27 »
So once it's all attached to the Teensy, and code (Hasu's?) is loaded on the Teensy, how do you tell it which wires go to which rows/columns?  Are there some connections on the Teensy you are supposed to use?  Or does it matter?   :confused:

If you're using hasu's TMK firmware, it's in the matrix.c file. If I can figure it out, pretty much anyone can. If you need help, and have the matrix pin out, I can help you with it, or there is the TMK firmware thread.

Thanks, I'm reading that now!

I'll post a separate thread once I tear the Televideo unit apart and desolder the PCB, looks like a fun project for the cooler weather that's upon us. 

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #310 on: Tue, 17 September 2013, 11:26:18 »
new creature

As someone who owns a HHKB and likes blue switches, this is amazing! I demand more pics.  :p

I agree!! This has been a goal for me with the GH60 project for a while now. Matt3o making moves! :P
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Offline Matt3o

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #311 on: Tue, 17 September 2013, 11:34:44 »
new creature

As someone who owns a HHKB and likes blue switches, this is amazing! I demand more pics.  :p

I just tested if the case was working... It's a long way to go (wiring, diodes, firmware...). I'll post the step-by-step as usual :)

Offline domoaligato

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #312 on: Tue, 17 September 2013, 11:35:38 »
you also need to look at these items after your matrix.c

here are some additional things to look at for the firmware topic
examples using the gh60 folder

config.H line 31-32 ()
#define MATRIX_ROWS 5
#define MATRIX_COLS 14

led.c (if your using one of these pins in your layout you need to change the pin here for your led or comment out the pin assignments.

void led_set(uint8_t usb_led)
{
    if (usb_led & (1<<USB_LED_CAPS_LOCK)) {
        // output low
        DDRB |= (1<<2);
        PORTB &= ~(1<<2);
    } else {
        // Hi-Z
        DDRB &= ~(1<<2);
        PORTB &= ~(1<<2);
    }
}

keymap.c
please see this for reference...
https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard/blob/master/doc/keymap.md#1-keycode

I would suggest starting soldering your matrix following the gh60 matrix from the pcb's this will allow you to use/build/flash the firmware for the gh60 unmodified..

If you need help send me a pm also.



Edit: I forgot something. the current gh60 folder for tmkfirmware still supports rev a prototypes and does not reflect the matrix layout changes to rev b+
« Last Edit: Tue, 17 September 2013, 11:38:12 by domoaligato »

Offline ijprest

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #313 on: Fri, 20 September 2013, 11:48:32 »
Prototyping with cardboard works just fine.  It was a pain to cut out all the holes but it's nice that I can actually type on it.  Impossible to change of course but I guess you can't have everything and cardboard is cheap.

Here's the solution I came up with:

First, I noticed that the square holes are supposed to be exactly 14mm, and the "plate" is exactly 1/16".  Weird combination of metric & imperial units, but there you go.

I had some thick card stock on hand: E. Gerber "Full Backs" (sold in packs of 50 at comic-book stores).  The manufacturer says it's 42-mil, which is less than 1/16" (.0625", or 62.5 mil).  Cutting some holes manually showed that the thickness was pretty good, but my holes weren't precise enough to get a really good fit.

So I found this 14mm square paper punch (available at scrapbooking stores, and online, generally less than $10).  It requires a fair bit of force to punch through the card-stock, but it works, and produces a nice square hole, and the switches mount just about perfectly.

Unfortunately, the throat on the punch wasn't deep enough to punch a hole more than an inch or so from the edge of the card... not enough for our purposes.  So I ripped the punch apart and jury-rigged a deeper throat with some tape, some "magic putty", and a plastic ruler.
36222-0

And here's the result:  I can now punch perfect holes in the middle of my board.

36224-136226-2

-- The holes around the edges were tests before I ripped apart the punch. 
-- The holes with ragged edges were attempts at manual cutting/punching.
-- The square grid was printed with a laser printer and "toner transferred" to the board with an iron (not a great job, but good enough for my purposes).

Next steps: 
-- Get more switches (I only have a couple from a WASD sampler-pack).
-- Design and test real layout.

Offline ijprest

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #314 on: Fri, 20 September 2013, 11:54:20 »
Oh... and I blew a fuse when I had both my laser printer and iron on simultaneously.  Note to self... remember to turn off laser printer before turning on the iron.

Offline miko

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #315 on: Fri, 20 September 2013, 12:47:12 »
Hi jdcarpe,

I liked your 40% keyboard made me want one aswell. I think spacebars (in general) are too big. So here is my attempt. Could you please make the plate mount file for me?

36232-0


http://ne0.cc/laygenV2#UzKyX

What program are you using to create the layout files? Autocad? The laser cutter service near me wants VisiCut PLF files, but I think they will accept svgs aswell. I could you please check if you could export it to any of these formats, preferably both?

Miko



Offline MOZ

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #316 on: Fri, 20 September 2013, 13:18:25 »
Hi jdcarpe,

I liked your 40% keyboard made me want one aswell. I think spacebars (in general) are too big. So here is my attempt. Could you please make the plate mount file for me?

(Attachment Link)


http://ne0.cc/laygenV2#UzKyX

What program are you using to create the layout files? Autocad? The laser cutter service near me wants VisiCut PLF files, but I think they will accept svgs aswell. I could you please check if you could export it to any of these formats, preferably both?

Miko

Here you go. It is DXF which is supported by visicut, I was unsure how you wanted the edges, so I just have them in a box
« Last Edit: Fri, 20 September 2013, 13:20:44 by MOZ »

Offline miko

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #317 on: Fri, 20 September 2013, 15:18:18 »
Awesome, thank you. I wonder how a single switch return will turn out, but I'm optimistic.  :D

Offline Tarzan

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #318 on: Sat, 21 September 2013, 20:26:19 »
Are the recommended switch diodes the 1N4148 ones mentioned in lowpoly's write-up?  He says he used;

Quote
1N4148, as recommended by Dave Dribin

...but I didn't see any explanation on why these were selected.

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #319 on: Sat, 21 September 2013, 23:00:19 »
Are the recommended switch diodes the 1N4148 ones mentioned in lowpoly's write-up?  He says he used;

Quote
1N4148, as recommended by Dave Dribin

...but I didn't see any explanation on why these were selected.

1N4148 are probably the most common rectifier diode used in electronics.
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Offline whiskytango

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #320 on: Thu, 26 September 2013, 21:20:03 »
I want to direct wire a WYSE terminal board. Does anyone have any input on this matrix? I plan to use a teensy. 8x13 matrix plus three pins for lock LEDS = 24 pins. 13 columns in red and 8 rows in green, maximum of 104 switches. There are 102 switches so one column only has 6 in it. What do you think? Also, any pointers as to which pins on the teensy I should wire the rows and colums to? And which ones for lock LEDs?



Also, here is a blank one if anyone else wants to try:

I stay busy with work and family these days, but I'm still around, lurking.

Offline Melvang

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #321 on: Wed, 02 October 2013, 08:28:12 »
Do any of the common firmwares for the Teensy2.0 have the ability to send a different keycode based on if the key is being held down or tapped?  What I was hoping to do is have my Esc key function as the Function key as well.  Tap the key and it works as Esc and held it is a function key.  If this is possible that would be AMAZING.  I think this would be a nice key to do that with as well as I can't think of any reason that you would need to hold down the Esc key for extended periods of time.  Well at least no off the top of my head that is.

Melvang
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Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #322 on: Wed, 02 October 2013, 12:20:21 »
Do any of the common firmwares for the Teensy2.0 have the ability to send a different keycode based on if the key is being held down or tapped?  What I was hoping to do is have my Esc key function as the Function key as well.  Tap the key and it works as Esc and held it is a function key.  If this is possible that would be AMAZING.  I think this would be a nice key to do that with as well as I can't think of any reason that you would need to hold down the Esc key for extended periods of time.  Well at least no off the top of my head that is.

Melvang

Wouldn't it be awkward to reach up to esc to use it as a FN key?

Offline TD22057

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #323 on: Wed, 02 October 2013, 20:17:26 »
Do any of the common firmwares for the Teensy2.0 have the ability to send a different keycode based on if the key is being held down or tapped?  What I was hoping to do is have my Esc key function as the Function key as well.  Tap the key and it works as Esc and held it is a function key.  If this is possible that would be AMAZING.  I think this would be a nice key to do that with as well as I can't think of any reason that you would need to hold down the Esc key for extended periods of time.  Well at least no off the top of my head that is.

Melvang

Did you read hasu's docs?  Looks like it does what you want: https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard/blob/master/doc/keymap.md

Offline Melvang

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #324 on: Thu, 03 October 2013, 09:36:58 »
Do any of the common firmwares for the Teensy2.0 have the ability to send a different keycode based on if the key is being held down or tapped?  What I was hoping to do is have my Esc key function as the Function key as well.  Tap the key and it works as Esc and held it is a function key.  If this is possible that would be AMAZING.  I think this would be a nice key to do that with as well as I can't think of any reason that you would need to hold down the Esc key for extended periods of time.  Well at least no off the top of my head that is.

Melvang

Did you read hasu's docs?  Looks like it does what you want: https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard/blob/master/doc/keymap.md

0.3 Keymap Example

Keymap is keymaps[]** C array in fact and you can define layers in it with **KEYMAP()** C macro and keycodes. To use complex actions you need to define Fn keycode in **fn_actions[] array.

This is a keymap example for HHKB keyboard. This example has three layers, 'Qwerty' as base layer, 'Cursor' and 'Mousekey'. In this example,

Fn0 is a momentary layer switching key, you can use keys on Cursor layer while holding the key.

Fn1 is a momentary layer switching key with tapping feature, you can get semicolon ';' with taping the key and switch layers while holding the key. The word 'tap' or 'tapping' mean to press and release a key quickly.

Fn2 is a toggle layer switch key, you can stay switched layer after releasing the key unlike momentary switching.

You can find other keymap definitions in file keymap.c located on project directories.

I guess it does.  I would venture to guess that I missed that part when I read through the first time.

Not using Esc as my Function key just using that as an example.
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Offline metalliqaz

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #325 on: Thu, 03 October 2013, 12:54:36 »
Cool I didn't know it could do that.

EDIT: Wow, just looked more closely at the docs.  He has a really powerful system there.  This is inspiring me to improve my own setup.  I've never needed that kind of complexity myself, though.  Still once I get the itch to add features....
« Last Edit: Thu, 03 October 2013, 13:10:50 by metalliqaz »

Offline DaveB

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #326 on: Thu, 31 October 2013, 08:38:33 »
Greetings;

I'm in need of a new keyboard. My old membrane board has too many things wrong to continue using it, and took it all apart to see what was there. Bought a cheap Gear Head wireless keyboard - terrible - returned it. Found a nicely clackety 2003 Logitech  Y-BF37 "Internet Navigator" keyboard in the attic that I bought new for the scroll wheel feature, which I still like, then started looking for something simpler. Saw a bunch of 'hand carved' bamboo cased & keyed keyboards. I love how they look, but they don't get great reviews. I'm a woodworker. Naturally, I thought I could make one using my favorite hardwood, and so I set about trying to learn about the choices I have. That's when I discovered mechanical keyboards, and in particular, Cherry MX switches.

One of the questions I have is to know if the switches are always soldered to a PCB, or if they can be hardwired on the underside of the mounting plate? 

The DWG files in this topic are awesome; what software creates those? Where would take / send one to have the plate made?  Is there a place who sells stock plates and / or pcbs?

I've noticed that most ready-made keyboards are wired. I don't want lights or anything, and wireless has become very convenient.  Any suggestions?

I've noticed that a low-priced ready-made Cherry MX mechanical keyboard can easily cost less than buying a bag of 110 switches, and refurbished keyboards are half or less of that.  My son has seen what I've been thinking about. He wants one, too, so I have two of 'em to make, and keeping costs down are, unfortunately, a necessary fact of life. Any thoughts on going this direction?

Thanks for taking the time to read, and for any responses you might have.

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #327 on: Thu, 31 October 2013, 08:47:42 »
Greetings;

I'm in need of a new keyboard. My old membrane board has too many things wrong to continue using it, and took it all apart to see what was there. Bought a cheap Gear Head wireless keyboard - terrible - returned it. Found a nicely clackety 2003 Logitech  Y-BF37 "Internet Navigator" keyboard in the attic that I bought new for the scroll wheel feature, which I still like, then started looking for something simpler. Saw a bunch of 'hand carved' bamboo cased & keyed keyboards. I love how they look, but they don't get great reviews. I'm a woodworker. Naturally, I thought I could make one using my favorite hardwood, and so I set about trying to learn about the choices I have. That's when I discovered mechanical keyboards, and in particular, Cherry MX switches.

One of the questions I have is to know if the switches are always soldered to a PCB, or if they can be hardwired on the underside of the mounting plate? 

The DWG files in this topic are awesome; what software creates those? Where would take / send one to have the plate made?  Is there a place who sells stock plates and / or pcbs?

I've noticed that most ready-made keyboards are wired. I don't want lights or anything, and wireless has become very convenient.  Any suggestions?

I've noticed that a low-priced ready-made Cherry MX mechanical keyboard can easily cost less than buying a bag of 110 switches, and refurbished keyboards are half or less of that.  My son has seen what I've been thinking about. He wants one, too, so I have two of 'em to make, and keeping costs down are, unfortunately, a necessary fact of life. Any thoughts on going this direction?

Thanks for taking the time to read, and for any responses you might have.

First, Welcome to Geekhack! :D

Second, if you're looking to get a mechanical keyboard (or two) on a tight budget, making it yourself is definitely out. That will end up costing you way more in time and materials than a production keyboard, which is sold on economy of scale.

For a good cheap mechanical, I can recommend the CM Storm QuickFire Rapid. That is about the most "bang for your buck" you are going to get. Unfortunately, wireless is pretty much out, unless you go Matias or Filco Minila.
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Offline DaveB

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #328 on: Thu, 31 October 2013, 11:31:56 »
Cool; thanks for your welcome, and for your response! I can see that I left some holes is my windy first post. The primary reasons for my interest in building one include the ability to make a beautifully crafted hardwood case, and the fact that I much prefer making things to buying them ready made. It's an approach that's worked for me because I've acquired some skills that have come in handy later for other things that have opened doors I might have completely missed otherwise. The primary reason for the second is that my son, who's almost 30, wants one too. Neither of us are really gamers. We use our computers for our business, for avid communication, and in my case, for an increasing amount of time spent coding.

I'm considering two used, working, but cosmetically imperfect G80-11900LUMEU-2 http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/keyboards/industrial/11900/index.htm keyboards with 104 Cherry MX black switches for < $40 combined. I don't need the plastic case nor the exposed portion of the caps because those will all be made of wood. The configuration isn't what either of us would necessarily pick, and they don't support Win 8, so I'm not sure how much of anything I could salvage from the boards except the switches. Still, that seems a good price even if that's all I do salvage.

I'm not looking for a compact so much, though I could get used to it. If I could salvage the PCB to which these switches are soldered, I could get used to it's configuration, too. I don't know how to upgrade it to something that does support Win 8, though, and that's what we're both using. Until I get the parts in my hands I won't be sure if what I'm considering will work, but my idea at the moment is to remove the stem from the inside of the caps that come with these keyboards, make a hollow and / or a hole on the back side of the hardwood caps I make, and fix the stems in those. Does that sound reasonable?

Cash is a lot easier to spend if it's done in dribbles & drabs over time. That way, you never have to see the total if you don't want to.   ;D   As far as time goes, I am semi-retired, and I have it. Spending time learning about, and making something new is the best time spent.

I'm sorry for the loss of your friend Nate. I lost a friend right after we graduated HS. May the remembrances of your friend never fade, and may his memory bring a smile to your face for all of your days.

Peace,

Dave

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #329 on: Thu, 31 October 2013, 11:56:43 »
Cool; thanks for your welcome, and for your response! I can see that I left some holes is my windy first post. The primary reasons for my interest in building one include the ability to make a beautifully crafted hardwood case, and the fact that I much prefer making things to buying them ready made. It's an approach that's worked for me because I've acquired some skills that have come in handy later for other things that have opened doors I might have completely missed otherwise. The primary reason for the second is that my son, who's almost 30, wants one too. Neither of us are really gamers. We use our computers for our business, for avid communication, and in my case, for an increasing amount of time spent coding.

I'm considering two used, working, but cosmetically imperfect G80-11900LUMEU-2 http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/keyboards/industrial/11900/index.htm keyboards with 104 Cherry MX black switches for < $40 combined. I don't need the plastic case nor the exposed portion of the caps because those will all be made of wood. The configuration isn't what either of us would necessarily pick, and they don't support Win 8, so I'm not sure how much of anything I could salvage from the boards except the switches. Still, that seems a good price even if that's all I do salvage.

I'm not looking for a compact so much, though I could get used to it. If I could salvage the PCB to which these switches are soldered, I could get used to it's configuration, too. I don't know how to upgrade it to something that does support Win 8, though, and that's what we're both using. Until I get the parts in my hands I won't be sure if what I'm considering will work, but my idea at the moment is to remove the stem from the inside of the caps that come with these keyboards, make a hollow and / or a hole on the back side of the hardwood caps I make, and fix the stems in those. Does that sound reasonable?

Cash is a lot easier to spend if it's done in dribbles & drabs over time. That way, you never have to see the total if you don't want to.   ;D   As far as time goes, I am semi-retired, and I have it. Spending time learning about, and making something new is the best time spent.

I'm sorry for the loss of your friend Nate. I lost a friend right after we graduated HS. May the remembrances of your friend never fade, and may his memory bring a smile to your face for all of your days.

Peace,

Dave

Keycaps are not my area of expertise, although there are some members here who make their own keycaps to great success. I'm thinking of Bro Caps, Binge, the fine fellows at the Ctrl Alt Store (BunnyLake, Tym, etc). Hardwood keycaps would be something of interest to many here, I would think.

A couple of members (The_Beast, nubbinator) have made wooden tray-style cases for 60% keyboards. They might be able to point you in the right direction there.

Buying one of those G80-11900 from eBay is a good idea, just for a start. They have MX Black switches, which I personally love. I bought two of those 11900's, mainly for the switches, as you described. I also bought a few MY-7000 boards to harvest the double shot keycaps from (make sure they are H**** model, not L**** model, as the L's are lasered, not double shot), as I really love Cherry double shot keycaps. Also, I would think they would work just fine with Windows 8. As long as you have a PS/2 keyboard port on your PC. If not, there are adapters for USB.

Also, the Phantom is a readily available PCB, if you are looking for DIY, although it is a tenkeyless (TKL) design. You could use that PCB, combined with a custom mounting plate, to mount in your wooden case. http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=536

I can always help with plate drawings, if you need custom ones to mount into your case design, or if you want to try something with a custom layout.

Good luck with your project, and if you ever need help, don't be afraid to ask!
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Offline DaveB

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #330 on: Thu, 31 October 2013, 16:42:29 »
I still have a long ways to go to read through this thread. Thank you for your generosity throughout, I keep running across "tenkeyless", and am unclear of it's meaning yet. Wikipedia doesn't even have a page for it, and that seemed like the opportunity was made for you.

From time to time, I use askii / unicode glyphs such as ©, , ¥, ®, , °, and especially, . There are a couple of ways to enter them into documents including the use of one of a number of available applets, by copy / paste, or by using some keyboard gymnastics to key them in that make your hands play Twister with each other. I keep an OpenOffice document containing the ones I use close by & copy / paste.  I've read where you guys keep certain keys open for macros. Could I use a few macro keys for this purpose? What do you all do with your macros?

   Dave

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #331 on: Thu, 31 October 2013, 16:59:19 »
I keep running across "tenkeyless", and am unclear of it's meaning yet.

Tenkeyless (lacking a 10-key number pad to the right of the navigation block):

KMAC :: LZ-GH :: WASD CODE :: WASD v2 :: GH60 :: Alps64 :: JD45 :: IBM Model M :: IBM 4704 "Pingmaster"

http://jd40.info :: http://jd45.info


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Offline Melvang

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #332 on: Thu, 31 October 2013, 17:16:21 »
If someone with solid works would be willing to look over my plate for issues on the spacing of things that would be great.  Pm would work best with email so I can send the file.
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Offline DaveB

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #333 on: Fri, 01 November 2013, 14:08:36 »
Thanks, JD; Initially, I gathered that's what tenkeyless meant, but as I browsed for ideas, and answers, I saw layouts with the num pad labeled tenkeyless, too. I like the look of your example keyboard. Are your keys backlit?

"The letters you typed don't match the letters that were shown in the picture."
9 tries so far to get past the junk-yard dog.

Offline regack

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #334 on: Fri, 01 November 2013, 14:27:19 »
"The letters you typed don't match the letters that were shown in the picture."
9 tries so far to get past the junk-yard dog.

Pop a thread in the 'New Members' area and welcome some other new members, and it'll go away soon enough  :thumb:

Offline roadblock2thesun

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #335 on: Mon, 04 November 2013, 10:04:44 »
Where do you all have your prototypes cut? Are you all having them cut locally? I have yet to be able to find an online source that provides affordable laser cutting of a single metal plate.

It is my understanding that if you have plates cut from acrylic, they need to be 3mm thick, and that the switches then need to be glued to the plate in order to hold in place.

Offline metalliqaz

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #336 on: Mon, 04 November 2013, 11:43:29 »
I still have a long ways to go to read through this thread. Thank you for your generosity throughout, I keep running across "tenkeyless", and am unclear of it's meaning yet. Wikipedia doesn't even have a page for it, and that seemed like the opportunity was made for you.

From time to time, I use askii / unicode glyphs such as ©, , ¥, ®, , °, and especially, . There are a couple of ways to enter them into documents including the use of one of a number of available applets, by copy / paste, or by using some keyboard gymnastics to key them in that make your hands play Twister with each other. I keep an OpenOffice document containing the ones I use close by & copy / paste.  I've read where you guys keep certain keys open for macros. Could I use a few macro keys for this purpose? What do you all do with your macros?

   Dave


Custom firmwares do support macros.  I usually bind mine to Fn+F1, Fn+F2, etc.  You can definitely do what you want, as long as you have a custom board.  This thread is about making your own custom board for yourself, but you can also do things like buy a KMAC, or a custom controller for an off the shelf board like a Filco.

Offline DaveB

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #337 on: Mon, 04 November 2013, 16:37:23 »
Thanks, metalliqaz; I was hoping to hear that. I'm a few steps away from that point yet, but it feels like I'm heading in the right direction. As will be obvious to many folks around here, this layout was pretty strongly influenced by the Truly Ergonomic keyboard. I still have lots of time to refine before any actual work starts. I made an offer which the seller accepted, so I ordered 3 of these http://www.ebay.com/itm/271225181823?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649 keyboards for the Cherry MX black switches, touchpads, and anything else I might find. They should be here later this week. Same seller has them in white cases with white keycaps.

I haven't gone looking for a CAD program with which to make the DWG file yet. This is a raster drawing, not a vector which is why the diagonal lines are fuzzy. I want to learn to make my own, but suggestions on which CAD program to use, or how to use it to get what I'm aiming for are welcome.



These are also Photoshop sketches that I made to help me communicate the direction in which I'm headed. My son modified my case shape and came up with this much nicer one.



Here it is with it's primordial legend. I'll be grateful for your critiques, and suggestions. It has a fair bit of room for improvement.



  Dave

PS; Wanna be the first person on my street with a key.

Offline metalliqaz

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #338 on: Mon, 04 November 2013, 17:39:25 »
That's a really cool.  I've no idea where you would find those keycaps but go after your dream!

PS: You dirty hippie! :p

Offline DaveB

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #339 on: Mon, 04 November 2013, 19:07:01 »
What did you call me?  :eek:

 ;D

Hey, thanks. I'm a bit of a woodworker, so I'll be making those wooden parts. I've been coveting a laser cutter for a long time. I can't think of another way to apply the legends. I'm too big a sissy to try to go blank.

It took me a while to understand the PCB / no PCB / mount plate stuff.  The mount plate with direct wiring seems sensible to me.  How would you do it with this board?

  Dave

Offline DaveB

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #340 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 13:20:53 »

So I found this 14mm square paper punch (available at scrapbooking stores, and online, generally less than $10).  It requires a fair bit of force to punch through the card-stock, but it works, and produces a nice square hole, and the switches mount just about perfectly.

Unfortunately, the throat on the punch wasn't deep enough to punch a hole more than an inch or so from the edge of the card... not enough for our purposes.  So I ripped the punch apart and jury-rigged a deeper throat with some tape, some "magic putty", and a plastic ruler.
(Attachment Link)


I think that's a great solution, and I love the mod you made to your punch.   :thumb:  I checked online for that 14mm punch. It's available at your link for US $7.49 which strikes me as a bargain. I'm going to try that before spending the $ on laser cutting, or the time it would take to manually cut them with a scroll saw. For the final plate, though, it'll have the notched holes like jdcarpe uses so I can open & muck around inside the switches without having to desolder them from the matrix.

Offline DaveB

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #341 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 14:45:08 »
Source for 16 ga. / 1/16" aluminum sheet

I was looking around online for possible local sources of sheet aluminum, and learned that institutional / restaurant baking sheets are 16 ga. aluminum. They come in various sizes, and the best prices might be had at Sam's Club or other warehouse buyer's club. If you're after stainless, they also carry steam table pans which also come in several sizes. A way to approach cutting a plate from it might be to obtain a used scroll saw from Craig's List, and while you're there, check for second hand trays. Restaurants close now and again, and they sell off that kind of stuff. Print your switch layout on plain paper. Using registry marks, align the pieces of your printed layout, and carefully bind them at the seam with tape or glue stick. Use rubber cement, contact cement, or spray adhesive, each applied to both the layout, and the sheet metal to cement them together. With a 1/4" or so twist bit, drill one hole where each opening will be, taking care to stay away from the lines you'll be cutting.

These saws are made for doing intricate cut work or scroll work, and blades designed for cutting metal can be had at most any home center, or on-line. The blade will need to be removed from the saw, threaded through each of your starter holes one at a time, reattached to the saw, cut that opening, then move on to the next. The blades are designed to change fast.

Offline Melvang

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #342 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 14:49:50 »
DaveB,

If you are going to go this route (as I am sure financial resources is a major factor here) keep in mind that the Cherry spec sheet calls for 0.551" square hole with radius in the corners of no more than .012".  And the tolerance they give for switch hole dimensions are +/-.002".  So if you are going to attempt to make one by hand using a scroll saw I would highly reccomend under sizing the holes when you cut with the scroll saw and open them up to spec with a hand file.
OG Kishsaver, Razer Orbweaver clears and reds with blue LEDs, and Razer Naga Epic.   "Great minds crawl in the same sewer"  Uncle Rich

Offline metalliqaz

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #343 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 15:55:39 »
that's WAY too much work.  Just get it cut with laser or waterjet.

Offline Melvang

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #344 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 16:34:09 »
I was unaware that water jet could get down under the max spec in the corners
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Offline DaveB

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #345 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 17:27:28 »
You are both right, of course, and the advice you give is sensible. It's just that in some ways, I'm not very sensible. My parents were both born before the depression, and both were quite frugal. We all learned to be frugal, too. My grandfather, a master of thriftiness had little stashes of neatly ordered bits of this and that, all stored in one out building or another around the farm. When he needed something, he made it rather than buying it, and I picked up on that. I enjoy making something that I want or need from the discards and cast-aways of others. An exchange student from Hungary who stayed with us for two academic years told friends that my then 10 year old son & I were "stuff makers from garbages". It was said with admiration, and it stuck.

While most of us have both traits, some lean more towards goal orientation while others are more process oriented. Arriving is almost a disappointment because it means the end of that journey, and to me, it's the journey that holds my interest. In the end, I may well contact The_Beast with my layout for a quote. While finances are a concern, it's not so much that I couldn't budget enough to pay a contractor to make the two I'd want. I'd very much like to purchase a laser cutter, and it's within the realm of possibility, but our furnace needs some work, as does the car, and those things are probably a higher priority. I just enjoy working on what some might call tedious little jobs. I've recently taken early retirement, though I still work some. That's given me more time to do the kinds of things I like doing. Most of those things are things about which I might have said that I would rather do it myself.

Cutting the holes a bit small, and filing them to spec is what I was thinking, too.  In aluminum, the job wouldn't even be too awful slow. I'd turn on The Dead or Pink Floyd or Yes, switch into right brain activity, fall into a zen-like state, and loose all track of time until it was finished. 

Offline metalliqaz

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #346 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 17:33:38 »
I was unaware that water jet could get down under the max spec in the corners

Typical laser cutting kerf size in acrylic:  0.06"
Typical water cutting kerf size in aluminum: 0.04"

Offline metalliqaz

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #347 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 17:35:40 »
You are both right, of course, and the advice you give is sensible. It's just that in some ways, I'm not very sensible. My parents were both born before the depression, and both were quite frugal. We all learned to be frugal, too. My grandfather, a master of thriftiness had little stashes of neatly ordered bits of this and that, all stored in one out building or another around the farm. When he needed something, he made it rather than buying it, and I picked up on that. I enjoy making something that I want or need from the discards and cast-aways of others. An exchange student from Hungary who stayed with us for two academic years told friends that my then 10 year old son & I were "stuff makers from garbages". It was said with admiration, and it stuck.

While most of us have both traits, some lean more towards goal orientation while others are more process oriented. Arriving is almost a disappointment because it means the end of that journey, and to me, it's the journey that holds my interest. In the end, I may well contact The_Beast with my layout for a quote. While finances are a concern, it's not so much that I couldn't budget enough to pay a contractor to make the two I'd want. I'd very much like to purchase a laser cutter, and it's within the realm of possibility, but our furnace needs some work, as does the car, and those things are probably a higher priority. I just enjoy working on what some might call tedious little jobs. I've recently taken early retirement, though I still work some. That's given me more time to do the kinds of things I like doing. Most of those things are things about which I might have said that I would rather do it myself.

Cutting the holes a bit small, and filing them to spec is what I was thinking, too.  In aluminum, the job wouldn't even be too awful slow. I'd turn on The Dead or Pink Floyd or Yes, switch into right brain activity, fall into a zen-like state, and loose all track of time until it was finished.

It's not really a matter of how much money you spend, or how much time you're willing to commit.  The simple fact is you probably just can't do it well enough by hand.

Offline DaveB

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #348 on: Fri, 08 November 2013, 05:24:45 »
The simple fact is you probably just can't do it well enough by hand.

Funny how often simple facts turn out to be erroneous assumptions, but I accept your challenge. To the pain.

   Dave

Offline Oobly

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Re: Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)
« Reply #349 on: Fri, 08 November 2013, 06:06:23 »
I am trying a new approach for prototyping boards by mounting the base of the switch almost as if it is a PCB, ie drilling round holes in the plate and gluing the switch base to it. 4mm hole for the round bit, 1.5mm per pin (but you may need to make these larger for metal plates in case of accidental contact).

That way you can open up the switch easily and only need basic drilling skill to make the plate. Most (all?) MX switches use the same base and contact design, so you can change the stems and springs without having to remove the bases.

Downside is it may be hard to line up the switches exactly 90 degrees, but I'll try using a ruler against one edge when putting in a row / column of switches (depending which way the stagger goes for the particular design). Other downside is I don't have a drill press and I find it hard to drill without the bit "wandering" at the start.

My first attempt will be on 4mm acrylic. I may try making "channels" for the matrix wiring and diodes so you can cover them easily (flush underside) without needing to make a case. I also want to try LED edge lighting for overall backlighting :)

I love "GeekHacking"!

« Last Edit: Fri, 08 November 2013, 06:09:40 by Oobly »
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.