Author Topic: Wilba's TKL Case+PCB Project  (Read 11197 times)

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Offline Wilba

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Wilba's TKL Case+PCB Project
« on: Mon, 20 April 2015, 06:43:11 »
Wilba's TKL Case+PCB Project
(for lack of a better name)

This project was initiated by jdcarpe when I put my hand up for any PCB design work, and he said he wanted to make a TKL keyboard. We've been brainstorming together for a while now, and in the meantime, I got the Planck prototype PCB built and ready for production, and designed an alternative JD45 PCB and case. Before I get too distracted with tackling an 1800 PCB/case, I thought it best to get this TKL design out there for people to comment on, show interest (or disinterest!), call me crazy, etc. and maybe take this to a group buy. Or not.

The PCB:

My thoughts on PCB design are to design it in conjunction with a case, so that they support each other, rather than one being overly contrained by the other. It will have lots of bottom row variations, ISO/ANSI, winkey/winkeyless, in-switch LED backlighting, on-board ATmega32U4 (for TMK/Easy AVR), SMD resistors/diodes, etc. Most likely the PCB and plate will support Alps as well as Cherry MX. The plate will be universal and use Cherry PCB Mount stabilizers exclusively (although the PCB will obviously work with compatible plates that use plate-mounted stabilizer cutouts).

The Case:

Some of the design features:
  • 0.5U gap between F-key groups carried over to the F-key/Num row gap, 60%/Navigation cluster gap, and bezel outer thickness
  • fixed incline of 3 degrees
  • "sculpted" profile that echoes the shape of a keycap and follows the curve of sculpted keycaps
  • curved top face reminiscent of the IBM Model M
  • single milled aluminium bezel + bottom SS plate (to reduce manufacturing cost)
  • option for winkeyless "blockers" built into the bezel (not shown in renders)

I've been drooling over Korean custom TKLs for months now... but while I love the anodized aluminium finish coupled with tasteful original Cherry or GMK keycaps, some things I'd prefer to be different, namely the gap size between clusters and the thickness of the bezel around the outside. To me, they look like a beautiful painting with a frame that's disproportionally thin. I also didn't want to design something that was just a slab propped up at the rear with separate feet or a wedge-shaped bottom part. That's been done before, and I want to make something different.

Shown here are some renders of the draft design, using Cherry/GMK profile keycaps, which are significantly shorter than OEM/Filco and others. Please note that renders can be misleading. The front/rear height, profile and incline of this case is very similar to a Filco Majestouch (without feet extended), which I verified with paper mockups placed next to my Filco. The height at the front is approximately the same as other milled aluminium case designs, it just looks higher in renders.

Feedback Wanted:

The point of this thread is to put the design up for constructive criticism and be a precursor to a formal Interest Check and Group Buy. While I'm designing this for my own use, I would like to mitigate the cost of a one-off manufacture by making it available as a small run or 10 or 20. If the run is that small, I can easily hand-solder a matching number of PCBs and sell them at cost (i.e. free SMD assembly) so that the PCB price is nearly on par with mass-produced, approx. US$40.

It's a bit too early to give firm prices on the whole thing (case+PCB+plates), but a small run quantity of 10 or 20 can maybe be done for US$350 per kit based on initial quotes. Obviously there would be some savings if this ever went to a larger quantity GB, but that's not my immediate goal. There's no way I can compete with larger scale GBs run in Korea with proxies into Geek Hack, so while it may cost a bit more than similar TKL offerings, there are some features I can offer like a unique design, community driven design process, open-source firmware, and a GB run within Geek Hack.

So... let me know what you think, so I can make it better.
« Last Edit: Tue, 21 April 2015, 09:05:00 by Wilba »

Offline Wilba

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Re: Wilba's TKL Case+PCB Project
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 20 April 2015, 06:43:53 »
*reserved*

Offline Photekq

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Re: Wilba's TKL Case+PCB Project
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 20 April 2015, 06:56:02 »
It looks great!

By the way, will you sell the PCB separately? I want to make another CNC custom, but I do not want to use the Phantom PCB this time and I do not want to use a Korean PCB.
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Offline Wilba

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Re: Wilba's TKL Case+PCB Project
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 20 April 2015, 07:17:31 »
It looks great!

By the way, will you sell the PCB separately? I want to make another CNC custom, but I do not want to use the Phantom PCB this time and I do not want to use a Korean PCB.

Sure! I will try to make the PCB useful for other case designs, so I will gladly incorporate other requirements into the PCB design, especially things like alternate USB connectors/pads, mount holes for tray cases, Num Lock/Scroll Lock LED positions, etc. But I'm not intending it to be 100% compatible to the Phantom layout (esp. all the bottom row variants and the "Filco" spacing between clusters).

Offline azhdar

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Re: Wilba's TKL Case+PCB Project
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 20 April 2015, 07:24:17 »
I like the 3° inclinaison, the huge inclinaison some korean boards have seems crazy.

I love the ISO compatibility :)

Case look clean but I think it lack a bit of personnality.

GL with the project.
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Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: Wilba's TKL Case+PCB Project
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 20 April 2015, 07:27:08 »
I like the idea of integrating the curve from the Model M. I wonder if that will add to the machining/tooling costs though. Regardless, I love curves in my metal :). Looking forward to more updates.

Offline cmadrid

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Re: Wilba's TKL Case+PCB Project
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 20 April 2015, 10:27:32 »
This looks very nice.. I'm going to need a group buy with a payment plan, lol

Offline pasph

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Re: Wilba's TKL Case+PCB Project
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 20 April 2015, 13:52:39 »
Also Alps iso?
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Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Wilba's TKL Case+PCB Project
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 20 April 2015, 14:11:37 »
Also Alps iso?

I think Alps must be limited to 87-key ANSI layout. Alps is already such a small niche, and when compromises must be made with regard to layout design, I always prioritize standard ANSI, for better or for worse.
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Offline Thechemist

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Re: Wilba's TKL Case+PCB Project
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 20 April 2015, 14:31:59 »
Would it be possible to make the bottom plate twice as thick?

Offline Joey Quinn

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Re: Wilba's TKL Case+PCB Project
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 20 April 2015, 17:14:12 »
Would it be possible to make the bottom plate twice as thick?

I agree with this and adding alps support.

Also depending on price I'd probably join a buy for this.
People in the 1980s, in general, were clearly just better than we are now in every measurable way.

The dumber the reason the more it must be done

Offline Wilba

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Re: Wilba's TKL Case+PCB Project
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 20 April 2015, 18:14:16 »
Also Alps iso?

I think Alps must be limited to 87-key ANSI layout. Alps is already such a small niche, and when compromises must be made with regard to layout design, I always prioritize standard ANSI, for better or for worse.

There's no reason Alps can't work for ISO on the PCB or the "universal" plate. The problem with ISO Enter is always the PCB mount stab holes conflicting with the "\ |" key.

Offline Wilba

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Re: Wilba's TKL Case+PCB Project
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 20 April 2015, 18:37:28 »
Would it be possible to make the bottom plate twice as thick?

If the mass properties in SolidWorks is to be believed, this is the approximate weight breakdown:

Alu milled case part = 900g
1.5mm SS switch plate  = 313g
1.5mm SS bottom plate = 680g

1.9kg (4.2 lbs) is heavy enough for my needs. I plan to add some thin rubber sheet to the bottom plate instead of rubber dome "feet" and make it as low to the desk as possible.

If people wanted more weight, I was thinking it could be added in the rear of the case, between the bottom plate and the PCB, maybe as a stack of 1.5mm SS plates secured via screws/nut. Alternatively, two bottom plates could be stacked - the bottom recess is 2mm so this would add 1mm to the bottom, and the second plate wouldn't be visible from the sides. That might be a better/cheaper solution than making the bottom plate 3mm for everyone.






Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: Wilba's TKL Case+PCB Project
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 20 April 2015, 18:57:26 »
Be careful Wilba, those mass property measurements aren't always 100% accurate in SolidWorks.

Offline Thechemist

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Re: Wilba's TKL Case+PCB Project
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 20 April 2015, 19:09:07 »
Would it be possible to make the bottom plate twice as thick?

If the mass properties in SolidWorks is to be believed, this is the approximate weight breakdown:

Alu milled case part = 900g
1.5mm SS switch plate  = 313g
1.5mm SS bottom plate = 680g

1.9kg (4.2 lbs) is heavy enough for my needs. I plan to add some thin rubber sheet to the bottom plate instead of rubber dome "feet" and make it as low to the desk as possible.

If people wanted more weight, I was thinking it could be added in the rear of the case, between the bottom plate and the PCB, maybe as a stack of 1.5mm SS plates secured via screws/nut. Alternatively, two bottom plates could be stacked - the bottom recess is 2mm so this would add 1mm to the bottom, and the second plate wouldn't be visible from the sides. That might be a better/cheaper solution than making the bottom plate 3mm for everyone.

I was thinking more of sound than weight, just don't want a hollow sounding keyboard and just knowing the bottom is 1.5mm makes me feel like it's just a cheap trap door but that is just me and I don't know how everyone feels.

If it's possible I would even prefer the case to be split in half with a solid bottom but not sure how much trouble that would be.

Offline Joey Quinn

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Re: Wilba's TKL Case+PCB Project
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 20 April 2015, 19:25:33 »
I agree the bottom plate should be thickened but I think splitting the case will remove the sleek look.
People in the 1980s, in general, were clearly just better than we are now in every measurable way.

The dumber the reason the more it must be done

Offline Wilba

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Re: Wilba's TKL Case+PCB Project
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 20 April 2015, 20:04:48 »
I was thinking more of sound than weight, just don't want a hollow sounding keyboard and just knowing the bottom is 1.5mm makes me feel like it's just a cheap trap door but that is just me and I don't know how everyone feels.

If it's possible I would even prefer the case to be split in half with a solid bottom but not sure how much trouble that would be.

The bottom plate is a compromise to simplify the design and reduce cost. Perhaps someone who's used an LZ-GH can comment on whether they think its SS bottom plate contributes to the sound. 1.5mm SS plate is pretty damn solid and on par with 3mm aluminium thickness at the bottom of a milled case. I honestly can't imagine how making that thicker would reduce a hollow sound - IMHO that would come from the cavity size and the reflections of sound, not from the bottom plate resonating, but I'm no expert at acoustics. The extra clearance at the rear (due to the 3 degree incline) will contribute to sound, but I don't know how much. Since people want to stick foam in even small, solid tray cases with 3mm clearance and ribs supporting the PCB, I'm assuming if it sounds hollow, the cavity can be lined with foam.

Offline MOZ

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Re: Wilba's TKL Case+PCB Project
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 21 April 2015, 09:01:51 »
Hooray for Alps!

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Wilba's TKL Case+PCB Project
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 21 April 2015, 10:16:23 »
Hooray for Alps!

You got that right, brother! A custom TKL with support for Alps, in a beautiful aluminum enclosure. What more could one ask for?
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Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: Wilba's TKL Case+PCB Project
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 21 April 2015, 10:25:09 »
Hooray for Alps!

You got that right, brother! A custom TKL with support for Alps, in a beautiful aluminum enclosure. What more could one ask for?

A second one :D

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Wilba's TKL Case+PCB Project
« Reply #20 on: Tue, 21 April 2015, 10:26:35 »
Hooray for Alps!

You got that right, brother! A custom TKL with support for Alps, in a beautiful aluminum enclosure. What more could one ask for?

A second one :D

Always buy two, so you have a backup. ;)
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Offline metalliqaz

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Re: Wilba's TKL Case+PCB Project
« Reply #21 on: Tue, 21 April 2015, 10:27:16 »
I really like that side profile.  Hottest thing I've seen in a while.  :cool:
I think that price estimate is wishful thinking, though.

Offline Wilba

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Re: Wilba's TKL Case+PCB Project
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 21 April 2015, 10:57:03 »
I really like that side profile.  Hottest thing I've seen in a while.  :cool:
I think that price estimate is wishful thinking, though.

It's based on a real quote for the milled bezel plus anodizing, and educated guesses on the PCB cost (with free SMD assembly by me). The estimate will get better once I get quotes back on the plates.

Offline Joey Quinn

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Re: Wilba's TKL Case+PCB Project
« Reply #23 on: Tue, 21 April 2015, 11:29:57 »
I like the price but probably couldn't afford it until the end of this summer.
People in the 1980s, in general, were clearly just better than we are now in every measurable way.

The dumber the reason the more it must be done

Offline DrHubblePhD

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Re: Wilba's TKL Case+PCB Project
« Reply #24 on: Tue, 21 April 2015, 11:36:10 »
I like your design! I'm confused though, do you plan on anodizing this or not? Cause without anodizing the top curve will have ton of machining marks that I think you don't want.

Offline metalliqaz

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Re: Wilba's TKL Case+PCB Project
« Reply #25 on: Tue, 21 April 2015, 11:37:42 »
I really like that side profile.  Hottest thing I've seen in a while.  :cool:
I think that price estimate is wishful thinking, though.

It's based on a real quote for the milled bezel plus anodizing, and educated guesses on the PCB cost (with free SMD assembly by me). The estimate will get better once I get quotes back on the plates.
Well that's awesome. I hope it comes through.

SMD soldering >20 boards yourself?  I hope you have an oven for that. I tried to do a GB of 8 with my soldering iron. I won't be subjecting myself to that again

Offline Wilba

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Re: Wilba's TKL Case+PCB Project
« Reply #26 on: Tue, 21 April 2015, 18:36:05 »
I like your design! I'm confused though, do you plan on anodizing this or not? Cause without anodizing the top curve will have ton of machining marks that I think you don't want.

Yes, the plan is to have them anodized.

SMD soldering >20 boards yourself?  I hope you have an oven for that. I tried to do a GB of 8 with my soldering iron. I won't be subjecting myself to that again

When I solder SMD parts, I use solder paste blobs via syringe and a hot air rework station... the small batch of 6 Planck prototypes I soldered was fairly easy for me, and that included SMD resistors and diodes per switch. I think doing <20 will be fun for me, and something I'm definitely willing to do for free to support a GB... but you're right, if it gets any bigger than that, I'll have to get fab assembly.

FWIW I used to sell DIY electronic kits which contained 100+ parts... and did batches of 50 every couple months, for years, as well as chopping DIP IC carriers into short lengths and selling over 4,000 vintage ICs, so I'm well acquainted with the tedium of group buy fulfilment! ;D

Offline neverused

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Re: Wilba's TKL Case+PCB Project
« Reply #27 on: Tue, 21 April 2015, 18:39:05 »
Perhaps this is an opportunity for Big Blue Saw to help with fabrication?

Offline MOZ

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Re: Wilba's TKL Case+PCB Project
« Reply #28 on: Wed, 22 April 2015, 14:32:45 »
Hooray for Alps!

You got that right, brother! A custom TKL with support for Alps, in a beautiful aluminum enclosure. What more could one ask for?

A job :P

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Wilba's TKL Case+PCB Project
« Reply #29 on: Wed, 22 April 2015, 14:34:39 »
Hooray for Alps!

You got that right, brother! A custom TKL with support for Alps, in a beautiful aluminum enclosure. What more could one ask for?

A job :P

nuclearsandwich posted this in the Kiibohd 13 meetup thread:

Screw it.  I'm moving to the Bay Area.  Somebody hook me up with a job and spare room.

My car goes to the first person in the Midwest that gives me $1500 cash.

https://jobs.github.com/positions/bf6cca02-d2fa-11e2-80d6-64ea2ef33dde


:D
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Offline MOZ

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Re: Wilba's TKL Case+PCB Project
« Reply #30 on: Sat, 25 April 2015, 11:24:56 »
Hooray for Alps!

You got that right, brother! A custom TKL with support for Alps, in a beautiful aluminum enclosure. What more could one ask for?

A job :P

nuclearsandwich posted this in the Kiibohd 13 meetup thread:

Screw it.  I'm moving to the Bay Area.  Somebody hook me up with a job and spare room.

My car goes to the first person in the Midwest that gives me $1500 cash.

https://jobs.github.com/positions/bf6cca02-d2fa-11e2-80d6-64ea2ef33dde


:D

 :-*

Offline Wilba

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Re: Wilba's TKL Case+PCB Project
« Reply #31 on: Fri, 05 June 2015, 09:32:11 »
I'm thinking I might put this TKL design on hold and do something a little less ambitious first... a 60% version of the same case design, sort of a proof of concept of the curved top face.

Doing a "standard" 60% PCB is a bit redundant and unoriginal (there's already the SD60 and an Alps 60% PCB, and of course the GH60  :-X )... so to be slightly original, and also because I'm curious to try a HHKB style layout, I've designed the PCB to support a tray case with 1.5U blockers in the corners (like the Duck Viper), and added a few bottom row variants, as well as the expected split shifts, split backspace, ISO, MX/Alps footprints, switch LEDs, PCB mount stabs, clearance for tray case "ribs", etc.

102718-0
102720-1
102722-2
102724-3

Possible layouts:

102726-4

The PCB would be compatible with Poker II cases... i.e. the mount holes on the PCB would match a Tex 60% case, so something like this would also be possible:

102728-5

... and vice versa, technically the case would be compatible with a 60% PCB, if you chopped off the corners and didn't use PCB mount stabs on the shifts with wires at the bottom (they need to be at top for clearance with the blockers).

Which brings me to the issue I have... continue on with the plan of blockers and a PCB designed for that (i.e. the inverted shift stabs), or take off the blockers and make the case and PCB more "standard 60%"... After it's built, am I going to eventually regret going with blockers for aesthetic reasons and wish I'd made a more standard case?

[BEARD SCRATCHING INTENSIFIES]

Offline Wilba

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Re: Wilba's TKL Case+PCB Project
« Reply #32 on: Sat, 06 June 2015, 02:24:14 »
Some more concept renders

Thinner walls:

102802-0

No blockers:

102804-1

Offline rsadek

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Re: Wilba's TKL Case+PCB Project
« Reply #33 on: Sat, 06 June 2015, 12:29:53 »
I love it! One suggestion: improve upon the HHKB layout by splitting the left shift.

That would be so amazing. The HHKB layout, as great as it is, can tire the right pinky, hand and forearm when tasks require the arrow keys too frequently. (Selecting and moving text, GUI or IDE chords involving arrows, lots of pgUp pgDown, etc.). Some days I feel like I'm holding it down all day; then the pain starts and I have to switch boards.

Hasu's mod helps with this in many ways, but nothing can beat having an extra Fn (or whatever else you like) key.What do you think?
-R
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Offline Wilba

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Re: Wilba's TKL Case+PCB Project
« Reply #34 on: Sat, 06 June 2015, 21:23:09 »
I love it! One suggestion: improve upon the HHKB layout by splitting the left shift.

That would be so amazing. The HHKB layout, as great as it is, can tire the right pinky, hand and forearm when tasks require the arrow keys too frequently. (Selecting and moving text, GUI or IDE chords involving arrows, lots of pgUp pgDown, etc.). Some days I feel like I'm holding it down all day; then the pain starts and I have to switch boards.

Hasu's mod helps with this in many ways, but nothing can beat having an extra Fn (or whatever else you like) key.What do you think?
-R

The left shift is already split 1.25U-1U for ISO... are you suggesting it be split 1U-1.25U?



Offline rsadek

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Re: Wilba's TKL Case+PCB Project
« Reply #35 on: Sun, 07 June 2015, 04:13:04 »
I missed entirely that it was already split for ISO.

But yes, 1U-1.25U is what I was getting at...like the HHKB, but mirrored. Let the left pinky do some work!

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Offline Wilba

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Re: Wilba's TKL Case+PCB Project
« Reply #36 on: Sun, 07 June 2015, 08:36:16 »
That's definitely possible to do on the PCB, but the plate cutout for the screw will be sub-optimal, just like the right one: