GH Universal TKL Case Open source project...

[domoaligato]

I would like to start a project to create a case that is open source for phantom and other TKL keyboards that can/will evolve over time.

This is a open project to get help from everyone in the community to make this meet everyone's requirements.

Here is the statement of work basically...

Define the Problem: we have no open source drop in plate based tenkeyless case design's
Specify Requirements:
This is where we are... I will start. in post #2


Brainstorm Solutions
Choose the Best Solution
Do Development Work
Build a Prototype
Test and Redesign

possible groupbuy by someone else with more groupbuy experience.

[domoaligato]

Kmac style tenkeyless case.
alternative top design's to support all of the phantom layouts.
support for as many tkl keyboards as possible. filco, ducky, cmstorm, corsair ?, steel series?
cable routes for both attached and detachable cables?

[jdcarpe]

What style of case are you after? Layered acrylic? Milled aluminum?

The main problem I see with the Phantom assembly dropping into a case (using current plate designs) is lack of some type of physical support inside the case. Now, if you want to use a new plate design that integrates with the case, that would be a solution to that problem. Or you might be able to fit some support ribs or standoffs into the case bottom.

[domoaligato]

Milled aluminum or milled acrylic with new plates that bolt down like the kmac.

edit: and yes standoffs would probably be the best bet.

[Wilba]

Milled aluminum or milled acrylic with new plates that bolt down like the kmac.

edit: and yes standoffs would probably be the best bet.

So... something like this?



Something low-profile like the KMAC is incompatible with the Phantom PCB... you need a USB socket at the same level as the switch PCB.
A PCB designed for a case like this is easy to do, but then it isn't a Phantom PCB case.

*edit* perhaps incompatible is the wrong word. You can obviously make a nice KMAC-style case that fits the Phantom PCB, but it involves an extra PCB for the USB socket, or a hole for the cable to pass through.

[domoaligato]

I was thinking a "a hole for the cable to pass through" and maybe taller then the kmac in the rear area in to help add room for compatibility options.

basically I like the idea of having a true plated case that is bolt down instead of a poker style drop in or a sandwiched layered style.
the thickness of the case overall does not have to be low-profile at all.
And if there is anything that I have learned by hanging out at geekhack.
It is that a lot of people here actually want a thick heavy case.

[metalliqaz]

Oh my God, yes.  I've had a lonely Phantom kit forever.

[SpAmRaY]

It's only right that I post a warning that all things phantom seem to end up cursed.

But for domo he's already fought his battle and is recovering so I wish you much luck.

[domoaligato]

I am thinking tek-80 only with more options...

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41202.0

[SpAmRaY]

That's big $$$$$$$$

Like more than skeldon.

[domoaligato]

how much would it be though? didn't Photekq have it done in brass instead of aluminum adding to the total cost?

[domoaligato]

the skeldon is great also. 

editing because triple posting is nubbin.

Think about it this way mechanicalkeyboards.com has supported us on both the phantom and gh60 pcb runs.

I want to buy a phantom pcb. I really really do. but I do not want one of the very limited options presented by purchasing a filco style case.
It defeats what the phantom is all about to just throw the pcb in a standard tkl case.
you are limiting the layout options and might as well just mod a filco tkl with a bpiphany alternative controller and call it a day. (bpiphany is great btw )

This is why I wanted to do this. to give everyone the high end option.

we already have a cheap option.. https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48007.0

Now lets create the enthusiast level case that we all know we want.

[Photekq]

I do not think it's wise to try and build a custom around the Phantom. Trust me, I made one.

The PCB was designed to allow a Filco to use custom layouts. It wasn't designed as a PCB to be used for fully custom boards.

When designing a housing around it there are sacrifices you need to make. An exception would be JD's lasered case that used spacers, since that dodges the limitations of the PCB.

Also, in comparison to more modern PCBs, it's lacking in features. Compare it to GONs NerD PCBs, for example.

I just think that if you're going to make an open source housing, you'd be best picking a PCB more suited to the job.

[domoaligato]

please see my above edit...

If we can support the gon pcb's also then why not?

[domoaligato]

I do not think it's wise to try and build a custom around the Phantom. Trust me, I made one.

The PCB was designed to allow a Filco to use custom layouts. It wasn't designed as a PCB to be used for fully custom boards.

When designing a housing around it there are sacrifices you need to make. An exception would be JD's lasered case that used spacers, since that dodges the limitations of the PCB.

Also, in comparison to more modern PCBs, it's lacking in features. Compare it to GONs NerD PCBs, for example.

I just think that if you're going to make an open source housing, you'd be best picking a PCB more suited to the job.

what makes the tek-80 so expensive? if the bottom insert was removed would it not be cheaper?

[Photekq]

what makes the tek-80 so expensive? if the bottom insert was removed would it not be cheaper?

The fact that it was a 1-off was what made it expensive. Removing the brass plate would've made it cheaper, but still.. 1-offs ain't cheap.

[Wilba]

I do not think it's wise to try and build a custom around the Phantom. Trust me, I made one.

The PCB was designed to allow a Filco to use custom layouts. It wasn't designed as a PCB to be used for fully custom boards.

When designing a housing around it there are sacrifices you need to make. An exception would be JD's lasered case that used spacers, since that dodges the limitations of the PCB.

Also, in comparison to more modern PCBs, it's lacking in features. Compare it to GONs NerD PCBs, for example.

I just think that if you're going to make an open source housing, you'd be best picking a PCB more suited to the job.

This was exactly my argument to JD when we started collaborating on a TKL PCB/case... being "backward compatible" to the Phantom PCB isn't the best way to move forward, especially when a new TKL PCB would be easy to make and do more.

[domoaligato]

there is a lot of phantom pcb;s floating around with no case to call home. that is why I was thinking about phantom compatibility.
granted, yes I would love for a updated phantom that supported rgby cherry switches. same with the gh60.

If the prototyping was milled acrylic instead would that make the one off cost cheaper?

[cmadrid]

I kind of want one of those CNCd polycarbonate cases from the TX87 IC.

[domoaligato]

I kind of want one of those CNCd polycarbonate cases from the TX87 IC.

you can have a case made from these files pretty easily to have a phantom in a later case in whatever material you would like.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48007.msg1280272#msg1280272

[Wilba]

there is a lot of phantom pcb;s floating around with no case to call home. that is why I was thinking about phantom compatibility.
granted, yes I would love for a updated phantom that supported rgby cherry switches. same with the gh60.

If the prototyping was milled acrylic instead would that make the one off cost cheaper?

I see your point... but the Phantom PCB was designed for one style of case/construction, and there are already milled aluminium cases that are compatible, and reasonably priced.

Designing a new case that fits existing Phantom PCBs and running a group buy for them is a good idea... people may go for it... but inheriting the design constraints of the Phantom PCB/Filco case isn't that appealing, when there are nicer, more inspiring designs like the KMAC etc.

[jdcarpe]

Also, from what I understand about CNC milling, the material cost difference between say aluminum and polycarbonate is actually negligible. What you are paying for is machine time. Granted, with a softer material the time required for milling might be a bit less, but not enough to make a big price difference.

[cmadrid]

I kind of want one of those CNCd polycarbonate cases from the TX87 IC.

you can have a case made from these files pretty easily to have a phantom in a later case in whatever material you would like.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48007.msg1280272#msg1280272

[domoaligato]

there are already milled aluminium cases that are compatible, and reasonably priced.

they are all closed designs.
example: I would love for FMJ to release his design for his 60% design #1.
I own it and supposedly he will never create it again as he likes the design #2 better and design #1 was basically a duck poker clone.
So if he is never going to do it again why not release the drawings?

same with the skeldon and many other commercial design's if they are not going to make them anymore then why not release the design's so more people can enjoy them?

[domoaligato]

Also, from what I understand about CNC milling, the material cost difference between say aluminum and polycarbonate is actually negligible. What you are paying for is machine time. Granted, with a softer material the time required for milling might be a bit less, but not enough to make a big price difference.

thanks this helps.

[domoaligato]

I kind of want one of those CNCd polycarbonate cases from the TX87 IC.

you can have a case made from these files pretty easily to have a phantom in a later case in whatever material you would like.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48007.msg1280272#msg1280272

Show Image

sorry I did not realise that is was not a layered case like gon's

[cmadrid]

No problem, just figured it would be easier to link to a picture of it :O

[domoaligato]

"Hey, I can actually design/build my own keyboards exactly how I want them. I can help others by answering their questions. I can actually CONTRIBUTE to this community, rather than just BUYING and SELLING things. I can help make this hobby fun for others, as well as myself, and have fun doing THAT." jdcarpe

^^ This is what I thought I was doing here. If the interest is not here, then I will just try to do something else to help out.

[jdcarpe]

Like Wilba said, when I first asked him to help me with an Alps-compatible TKL PCB, he explained to me that when designing a new PCB, it makes sense to design the case around it, rather than trying to design around existing products. That's because I originally wanted the case to be compatible with Phantom PCBs.

I still think making a milled case for the Phantom is a worthy goal, since no one has really provided a great case for it yet. It doesn't have to be open source, though, since it wouldn't really make financial sense for individuals to have one-offs produced.

The problem with open sourcing hardware designs like that is that as someone who makes things, it can be discouraging to see others selling your designs for profit (e.g. Chinese taobao sellers), when the intent was to make it available for everyone to use.

[domoaligato]

Like Wilba said, when I first asked him to help me with an Alps-compatible TKL PCB, he explained to me that when designing a new PCB, it makes sense to design the case around it, rather than trying to design around existing products. That's because I originally wanted the case to be compatible with Phantom PCBs.

I still think making a milled case for the Phantom is a worthy goal, since no one has really provided a great case for it yet. It doesn't have to be open source, though, since it wouldn't really make financial sense for individuals to have one-offs produced.

The problem with open sourcing hardware designs like that is that as someone who makes things, it can be discouraging to see others selling your designs for profit (e.g. Chinese taobao sellers), when the intent was to make it available for everyone to use.

I just want to be able to have a TKL case design be readily available like the phantom pcb's.
I find it kinda annoying that there are no options for the expanded phantom layout options right now at all. 7bit layout anyone?

[SpAmRaY]

Like Wilba said, when I first asked him to help me with an Alps-compatible TKL PCB, he explained to me that when designing a new PCB, it makes sense to design the case around it, rather than trying to design around existing products. That's because I originally wanted the case to be compatible with Phantom PCBs.

I still think making a milled case for the Phantom is a worthy goal, since no one has really provided a great case for it yet. It doesn't have to be open source, though, since it wouldn't really make financial sense for individuals to have one-offs produced.

The problem with open sourcing hardware designs like that is that as someone who makes things, it can be discouraging to see others selling your designs for profit (e.g. Chinese taobao sellers), when the intent was to make it available for everyone to use.

I just want to be able to have a TKL case design be readily available like the phantom pcb's.
I find it kinda annoying that there are no options for the expanded phantom layout options right now at all. 7bit layout anyone?

Moz's layered acrylic case wasn't too bad.

[domoaligato]

Photekq, I remember that you had a kmac pcb that you originally cut the usb header or something to make it fit in tek-80?
I am not sure of the details but what in your opinion would it take to revise your drawings to support both a kmac and phantom?

[metalliqaz]

What the heck? So many phantoms need cases.  Why try to discourage it? 

[cmadrid]

I wasn't trying to discourage anything.. I was just trying to show a picture of a case I thought looks good, one I would buy if it was for sale

[Wilba]

I hope my comments weren't discouraging... just pointing out some of the challenges, and how being "locked into" the Phantom/Filco design is a bit limiting if you want to do things that they weren't designed for (e.g. mini-USB socket on the case, or low-profile/flat cases).

[domoaligato]

For the most part mini-usb sockets could be relocated with a extension cable/mini pcb to relocate the socket.

It could have a thicker upper area above the F row where most usb plugs are.
this area can be used to reroute the usb plug to a standard location.

I am now thinking IBM space saver mixed with kmac...



lets switch to design. Does everyone like the idea of a case designed kinda like the space saver?

[cmadrid]

I would love to have an SSK, but if I was building my own TKL, I would want standard layout

[domoaligato]

I would love to have an SSK, but if I was building my own TKL, I would want standard layout

I was not talking about the layout. I was discussing the case. the layout is up to the user to choose. HHBK/Winkey/Winkeyless/7bit/many more...

[cmadrid]

Ah, then yes

[domoaligato]

For the most part mini-usb sockets could be relocated with a extension cable/mini pcb to relocate the socket.

It could have a thicker upper area above the F row where most usb plugs are.
this area can be used to reroute the usb plug to a standard location.

I am now thinking IBM space saver mixed with kmac...

Show Image

lets switch to design. Does everyone like the idea of a case designed kinda like the space saver?

ok so after talking with some people this might now be a good idea because of the F row differences and cost of this requiring more machine time to make with a the ssk style.

So basically we would need an additional top for korean keyboards because they use different row spacing between the number row and the F row.

[domoaligato]

So I guess that we need to collaborate and determine the measurements of the pcb's to support.
Basically let me just make this clear what my intent is.

I would like to contribute by funding prototyping and then ship the prototype around like a switch tester to make sure that it fits the keyboards that we plan to support.
Making adjustments as needed based on the feedback of the testers.

The first prototype might be a 3d printed outer casing with steel plates for the actual pcb's

I do not have the talent to do the actual design work in cad but would like to finance the project if I can to get it off the ground.

I would need volunteers to help with the actual engineering of the plates and cases.
I think that the tek80 might be a good place to start. but I am not sure because again I am not a CAD guy.

[domoaligato]

anyone interesting in this project?

[jdcarpe]

anyone interesting in this project?

I'm still interested.

[nubbinator]

I just need some help with a plate design and phantom dimensions, but definitely interested in giving it some love too.

[domoaligato]

Thanks guys. sorry I was not feeling well yesterday  and didn't check in. (I have good days and bad days).
I think in my down time I am going to watch some videos on CAD and try to figure out how to do the case design.

nubs would this page help?
 https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47744.0

[domoaligato]

sorry I have had lots of doctors appointments and stuff and I also had to move all my pc parts to a new case. thermaltake core x9. (the quality is garbage but for the price I can not complain much.)

[cmadrid]

Moving all the hardware from one case to another is always a PITA.. but at least it is a good opportunity to clean things up a bit!

[nova779]

This would be great especially if there could be a group buy or something because my phantom needs a case and I can't find any that are compatible with the phantom plate that isn't bent and has no mounting holes. I really want an aluminum case but acrylic would be neat too.

[MOZ]

You can check my case thread and the files for dimensions, they are pretty much spot on, I'm typing this on a Phantom in a layered acrylic case.