[GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - DESKMATS SHIPPING

[DukeEsquire]

I've done my part with a few base kits. My concern is that there are two base kits which are extremely similar save for the mods. I feel like it would have been better to have one base kit and then optional mods.

Hopeful that both base kits will hit MOQ, but agreed that we need some help.

[grundlemere]

I've done my part with a few base kits. My concern is that there are two base kits which are extremely similar save for the mods. I feel like it would have been better to have one base kit and then optional mods.

Hopeful that both base kits will hit MOQ, but agreed that we need some help.

We appreciate you doing this. Initially I had planned the kitting as you would have preferred, but because nearly all the cost of the Traditional Chinese kit was tied up in the new molds, the mod-only kit I had planned was essentially as expensive as a base kit, putting Traditional Chinese users in the position of needing to buy $250+ worth of kits just to cover a board. Not only was this unfair, but a child kit at that price is also simply a non-starter.

Thanks for helping to put a dent in this for us. The choice was not welcome but was essentially no choice at all.

[mustardgreens]

Damn, I really hope this gets made. It would be a shame if it didn't, especially because other sets (GMK Tuzi, Houhai for example) will be able to take advantage of the new legends. But I am worried, as the MOQ is very high. 1000 base kits is a huge number for a niche product like this. But I believe in it

If you are reading this and are on the fence about supporting, please do!

Cangjie is good for Mandarin or Cantonese learners also, because it can help you "construct" the characters stroke by stroke, regardless of pronunciation. This is fun

[Lil]

I'm planning to join towards the end of the month for most of the kits, glwb

[jkteoh]

Planning on hopping on this closer to the end of the month as well. Keeping my fingers crossed this makes it - it'll be my first fancy AF keycaps but how can I not support such a carefully thought out set?

[grundlemere]

Planning on hopping on this closer to the end of the month as well. Keeping my fingers crossed this makes it - it'll be my first fancy AF keycaps but how can I not support such a carefully thought out set?

I'm planning to join towards the end of the month for most of the kits, glwb

Damn, I really hope this gets made. It would be a shame if it didn't, especially because other sets (GMK Tuzi, Houhai for example) will be able to take advantage of the new legends. But I am worried, as the MOQ is very high. 1000 base kits is a huge number for a niche product like this. But I believe in it

If you are reading this and are on the fence about supporting, please do!

Cangjie is good for Mandarin or Cantonese learners also, because it can help you "construct" the characters stroke by stroke, regardless of pronunciation. This is fun

Thanks everyone. GBs tend to fill closer to the end, with pay periods, FOMO, and every other factor putting pressure on the back end. I believe we will get this set done but it is critical to support it. I'm in for a lot of sets myself. (Guess what everyone is getting for Christmas?) I am really pleased with the theme of the set and all, but at the end of the day, this is an investment in GMK's language compatibility. Honestly it's kind of wild to hear but so many people are now learning Cangjie...I wonder if this will spark some kind of small revival?

I really appreciate your planned support and look forward to an update soon. We also have our first collabs going up in the next week and that should really get people going.

[CobraLi]

I got the Inkstone, Lijiang and Negative Space set! Also the Rama chop and Rafts deskmat as well! Eagerly awaiting this set!   

[grundlemere]

I got the Inkstone, Lijiang and Negative Space set! Also the Rama chop and Rafts deskmat as well! Eagerly awaiting this set!   

Thank you! Should look beautiful. What board are you planning on putting them on?

[CobraLi]

I got the Inkstone, Lijiang and Negative Space set! Also the Rama chop and Rafts deskmat as well! Eagerly awaiting this set!   

Thank you! Should look beautiful. What board are you planning on putting them on?

I am debating between my KBDfans Maja (NK Creams) and my SC frosted Alice (Roselios). Then again I may join a group buy for a 75% Alice once I find a design that I am interested in. 

[dirtegg]

Grabbed the Simplified, Monolegends, and Spacebars! I really hope that this set makes MOQ, since it would be a huge development in the keeb community if these legends became part of the GMK toolset! This is going to be my first WoB set too, as I was never swayed by the standard set but this is certainly something special  )

[Leon_TheKing]

the only thing that puts me off is the chinese character on key S. it's not an auspicious word you want to see when typing, though I understand this is probably one of the composition words under Cangjie system. Look forward to your next set with Chinese legends (Houhai I believe?), will surely crop a few kits.

[dvorcol]

[grundlemere]

Still have quite a ways to go, folks. If you were thinking of joining this set, or Houhai, or any other set you'd like to see with the Chinese legends, now's the time.

This is our one shot to get this done and I hope you'll consider this as an investment in getting new (true, usable!) language compatibility added to the GMK font foundry for the community. I appreciate the support of so many folks who have skin in the game by buying sets. I can assure you that I, and the great, supportive vendors we have, do as well.

I feel a high degree of confidence that in the next couple of weeks I'll be back to tell you that all kits are being produced and we're getting this tooling made, but it's going to take your help.

In the meantime, join my giveaway on Instagram to win a keyset of your choice!

[Abhorrent Cell]

Def signing up for Inkstone and at least 2 Negative Space.

Hoping for a matching BoW set if this is a success!

[390123emma]

Are the secondary legend functional? I am bilingual, I use pinyin only, I have no idea what the secondary legend is for.

[mustardgreens]

Are the secondary legend functional? I am bilingual, I use pinyin only, I have no idea what the secondary legend is for.

Canjie input method

Used to be common around HK. It's rarely used now. Cangjie allows you to type words stroke by stroke, radical by radical, rather than phonetically. It has a couple advantages: it could be good for people who know how to read and write but speak a dialect and don't know pinyin. It could also be useful for language learners too because it helps you memorize the structure of the characters. It's the input method that most closely resembles writing.

I think it's pretty cool, I use pinyin but I have wanted to learn cangjie for many years now, never got around to it. This set is the perfect excuse.

[grundlemere]

Numbers coming from dvorcol soon, and an update is up on Reddit. The orders are in, and all RAMAs and deskmats will be made, but the keycap kits still need your support. Join now at your local vendor at the top of the thread!

[LightningXI]

Numbers aren't looking good. Any chance the runners will consider lumping Inkstone and Old Path together so there's hope to hit MOQ?

[dvorcol]

[mustardgreens]

Numbers aren't looking good. Any chance the runners will consider lumping Inkstone and Old Path together so there's hope to hit MOQ?

+1

I would like to see at least one of the base kits get made.

[grundlemere]

Numbers aren't looking good. Any chance the runners will consider lumping Inkstone and Old Path together so there's hope to hit MOQ?

I think there’s a good chance we can make up sales in the second half here, but this possibility has been raised and I’ll ask. I think the easiest way to do it would be to pick the set that’s leading and ask if buyers are willing to convert their orders. Let’s hope instead for second half numbers to get close enough to justify a buyout to get the molds made for both character sets!

[DukeEsquire]

Numbers aren't looking good. Any chance the runners will consider lumping Inkstone and Old Path together so there's hope to hit MOQ?

I think there’s a good chance we can make up sales in the second half here, but this possibility has been raised and I’ll ask. I think the easiest way to do it would be to pick the set that’s leading and ask if buyers are willing to convert their orders. Let’s hope instead for second half numbers to get close enough to justify a buyout to get the molds made for both character sets!

Agreed that is probably the best bet to hit MOQ.

Frankly, I don't think there is a ton of incremental benefit to having both traditional and simplified mods.

[grundlemere]

Numbers aren't looking good. Any chance the runners will consider lumping Inkstone and Old Path together so there's hope to hit MOQ?

I think there’s a good chance we can make up sales in the second half here, but this possibility has been raised and I’ll ask. I think the easiest way to do it would be to pick the set that’s leading and ask if buyers are willing to convert their orders. Let’s hope instead for second half numbers to get close enough to justify a buyout to get the molds made for both character sets!

Agreed that is probably the best bet to hit MOQ.

Frankly, I don't think there is a ton of incremental benefit to having both traditional and simplified mods.

That's not a sentiment most often shared in the Chinese-speaking world. The availability of both has been very important, both in our IC responses and in the discussion around it. I've had nearly a year of conversations with users around the world about this, including friends in both in Mainland China and in other Chinese-speaking territories. The use of Traditional vs. Simplified characters is deeply personal and political, and I heard from many users in TW and HK that they simply would not be interested in purchasing keycaps using SC, which many consider "not real" Chinese. At the same time, SC users, while intrigued by TC, outnumber TC users 25:1, so it doesn't make sense to sell TC only simply because a minority of users feel it's indispensable. The goal is to get the tooling made for both character sets to expand the library. My next set, GMK Houhai, for example, is inspired by the nights in Beijing, and it wouldn't make much sense not to offer Simplified characters in the city where they were invented and where all the signage that inspired them is written using them. Nor would it make sense for more traditionally themed sets like Shanshui, or others planned in the future by other designers, to offer only Simplified Chinese, and to expect TC users who see it as a bastardization to simply get with the program.

Plus, after talking with vendors, the idea of converting orders doesn't sound like it has much support. It would be a real nightmare to contact every buyer and convert and cancel a bunch of orders. Instead, we are going to try to sell 500 of each base kit, and I suspect that if it's close, we have a supportive group of vendors ready to make it happen. I'm already in for several sets myself, and so are many of the fans of this set and this project.

Bottom line: If you believe in this set, and in the community project of expanding GMK's tooling to include Chinese characters, the best thing you can do is to support it, and to promote this set to your friends and fellow community members.

[mustardgreens]

Agreed with everyone here really. Except this sentence:

At the same time, SC users, while intrigued by TC, outnumber TC users 25:1, so it doesn't make sense to sell TC only simply because a minority of users feel it's indispensable. The goal is to get the tooling made for both character sets to expand the library.

No. The goal is to give the purchasers what they paid for. This is not Houhai, this is Shanshui. Getting new moulds made and adding to the GMK librrary is amazing, I agree, but it is incidental. The main goal of someone running a GB must be to ensure that the customers get their product.

I know that modifying orders after the fact would be a pain in the ass for the vendors, because they'd probably have to refund orders and extend the GB (I don't see any other way). But if the alternative is to forsake the GB completely (knock on wood) then it should be given some consideration at least. I think that's all anyone is saying here.

As I see it, there are 3 possible outcomes:
A. At least one base kit reaches MOQ;
B. No base kit reaches MOQ. One kit is cancelled and purchasers are asked to support the other kit;
C. No base kit reaches MOQ. Project cancelled.

A is preferable to B, which is preferable to C. Agreed?

I reckon that most simplified users would still begrudgingly pay for traditional mods, rather than having no kits made. After all, karaoke is still sung in traditional and cangjie is historically a traditional input method. It's not unreasonable.

Yes, Houhai would be better in simplified. But this is not Houhai. (And there is a lot of overlap in the alphas anyway, which will help).

Anyway, good luck, I've been supporting this from day 1 and will continue to support!

[dirtegg]

I reckon that most simplified users would still begrudgingly pay for traditional mods, rather than having no kits made. After all, karaoke is still sung in traditional and cangjie is historically a traditional input method. It's not unreasonable.

Great points made all around, I think at the end of the day a lot of us want this to succeed so are trying to find ways for it to happen. Fingers crossed we see a end-of-Jan push and maybe some generous vendors may take on the extras.

Take my opinion with a grain of salt as I am simply one customer, but I would most certainly not pay for traditional mods because, well, I can't read traditional. But I do see your point about it.

[DukeEsquire]

Numbers aren't looking good. Any chance the runners will consider lumping Inkstone and Old Path together so there's hope to hit MOQ?

I think there’s a good chance we can make up sales in the second half here, but this possibility has been raised and I’ll ask. I think the easiest way to do it would be to pick the set that’s leading and ask if buyers are willing to convert their orders. Let’s hope instead for second half numbers to get close enough to justify a buyout to get the molds made for both character sets!

Agreed that is probably the best bet to hit MOQ.

Frankly, I don't think there is a ton of incremental benefit to having both traditional and simplified mods.

That's not a sentiment most often shared in the Chinese-speaking world. The availability of both has been very important, both in our IC responses and in the discussion around it. I've had nearly a year of conversations with users around the world about this, including friends in both in Mainland China and in other Chinese-speaking territories. The use of Traditional vs. Simplified characters is deeply personal and political, and I heard from many users in TW and HK that they simply would not be interested in purchasing keycaps using SC, which many consider "not real" Chinese. At the same time, SC users, while intrigued by TC, outnumber TC users 25:1, so it doesn't make sense to sell TC only simply because a minority of users feel it's indispensable. The goal is to get the tooling made for both character sets to expand the library. My next set, GMK Houhai, for example, is inspired by the nights in Beijing, and it wouldn't make much sense not to offer Simplified characters in the city where they were invented and where all the signage that inspired them is written using them. Nor would it make sense for more traditionally themed sets like Shanshui, or others planned in the future by other designers, to offer only Simplified Chinese, and to expect TC users who see it as a bastardization to simply get with the program.

Plus, after talking with vendors, the idea of converting orders doesn't sound like it has much support. It would be a real nightmare to contact every buyer and convert and cancel a bunch of orders. Instead, we are going to try to sell 500 of each base kit, and I suspect that if it's close, we have a supportive group of vendors ready to make it happen. I'm already in for several sets myself, and so are many of the fans of this set and this project.

Bottom line: If you believe in this set, and in the community project of expanding GMK's tooling to include Chinese characters, the best thing you can do is to support it, and to promote this set to your friends and fellow community members.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but even in the TC set, aren't the alphas still in SC? So you end up with a mix of SC and TC on a board.

I'm Chinese, but grew up in the US so I have some idea of the political push to create a standardize SC over TC, but isn't it weird to have a mix of SC and TC on one board?

[grundlemere]

This is a response to your comment, though the quote thread was getting a bit long.

The answer is no, the alphas in each set are particular to the character set they represent. In fact, all but six of the alphas are the same in TC and SC. Two Latin letter keys (火、女) and three numerals (七、八、零) are different based on stroke angle, and are rendered differently in each set. One character (難) I included the TC form in both kits on advice that the SC version looked wrong. In only this one instance does a TC character appear on the SC kit, deliberately so. TC and SC are in no other way mixed.

[DukeEsquire]

This is a response to your comment, though the quote thread was getting a bit long.

The answer is no, the alphas in each set are particular to the character set they represent. In fact, all but six of the alphas are the same in TC and SC. Two Latin letter keys (火、女) and three numerals (七、八、零) are different based on stroke angle, and are rendered differently in each set. One character (難) I included the TC form in both kits on advice that the SC version looked wrong. In only this one instance does a TC character appear on the SC kit, deliberately so. TC and SC are in no other way mixed.

Ah, got it. That is helpful to know. Thanks!

[jkteoh]

Hey Grundlemere - really appreciate your attention to both TC and SC users. It's definitely a thing, and this kind of attentiveness is why I'm so supportive of this project.

Far too many folks like to cash in on East Asian culture without actually figuring out what matters to the communities they're making products off of. Our language and writing isn't just "a cool font" for folks to show off their "worldliness" or whatever visual high they get off of seeing foreign letters on their keyboards.

Definitely agree about the importance and difference between TC/SC. Grew up with both and it's a bit like switching from ANSI to ISO, or going from a standard keyboard to a split or ergo staggered, except worse. It throws people off. Imagine if every letter you're reading right now just suddenly started to look different, enough where you have to start using Google translate just to read it. Yeesh. It's like the difference between "fun" and "craic."

I agree with the others that at least one of the kits made would be preferable. I'm not sure if a TC or SC kit - if forced to choose - which would be the right choice and I don't envy the choice you might have to make. But, from your comments here and elsewhere, at least I know you're doing the best you can and understand the significance of it.

Sidenote: Comparing SC/TC and using karaoke as an excuse is just silly. I don't need to read Japanese to be able to sing along to Ayumi Hamasaki. I can recognize the tones and I just need the timing. I don't need to be able to read and spell supercalifragilisticexpialidocious accurately to sing along to it in Mary Poppins. It's simpler with SC/TC because the words are pronounced the same even if they are written differently.

[mustardgreens]

Sidenote: Comparing SC/TC and using karaoke as an excuse is just silly. I don't need to read Japanese to be able to sing along to Ayumi Hamasaki.

My point in referencing KTV was merely that many SC users can use and are willing to use TC on occasion (whereas the inverse is often not true). I am not arguing in favour of one or the other, I was just trying to provide a potential solution in the event that the GB is short on orders.

[ThomasTaiTai]

Sidenote: Comparing SC/TC and using karaoke as an excuse is just silly. I don't need to read Japanese to be able to sing along to Ayumi Hamasaki.

My point in referencing KTV was merely that many SC users can use and are willing to use TC on occasion (whereas the inverse is often not true). I am not arguing in favour of one or the other, I was just trying to provide a potential solution in the event that the GB is short on orders.

It's not really about usability. Users of one can mostly guess what the characters on the keyboard are. The problem really is a cultural one. If one set gets made and orders of the other set is given the option to convert, people who care will lose their minds and refuse to convert their orders.

To GB runners:
If traditional meets MOQ and simplified doesn't, consider asking Zfrontier to buy out the remaining MOQ, or reopen the GB for China and make a post on the Chinese Zfrontier forum to ask for people's support.
Likewise, if simplified meets MOQ and traditional doesn't, might be a good idea ask Thic Thock to buy out the traditional set. I know they are not a vendor for this set, but this should be done before taking any last resort options.

[mustardgreens]

If one set gets made and orders of the other set is given the option to convert, people who care will lose their minds and refuse to convert their orders.

And if neither set gets made, then what? I was only referencing this scenario.

[jkteoh]

Sidenote: Comparing SC/TC and using karaoke as an excuse is just silly. I don't need to read Japanese to be able to sing along to Ayumi Hamasaki.

My point in referencing KTV was merely that many SC users can use and are willing to use TC on occasion (whereas the inverse is often not true). I am not arguing in favour of one or the other, I was just trying to provide a potential solution in the event that the GB is short on orders.

Did not have to present solutions while being flippant and dismissive about someone's culture.

Also, some TC folks can read SC when forced to as much as some SC folks can read TC.

It's perfectly fine to have a preference over aesthetic reasons as I doubt all or even most of the folks that are preordering this are folks that read Chinese, but it'd be great if people weren't so dismissive of the reasoning and explanation behind why it's not as simple as "Oh just force them to use TC/SC it's about the group buy and not the expansion or inclusion of a library of characters."

Y'all have any bloody idea how long I've spent on AliExpress trying to find keycaps that offered actual proper Chinese characters? Sheesh.

[grundlemere]

This is an interesting discussion, and I'm glad everyone's grappling with the same question I had to grapple with: why both sets need to be made. Written Chinese is much more than decorative and beautiful, which it certainly is; it is also deeply personal to the people around the world whose culture is defined by it. Of course TC and SC users can, in most cases, read the character set that is not their own, and in many cases even write in the other character set. The reason why both forms of Chinese must be included is not a practical reason or even solely an aesthetic one. It strikes to the heart of culture and identity. jtkeoh, I appreciate your comment because I understand what you mean. I am not Chinese but I am a lover of the culture and the people, and this is the only way to truly honor the people in whose honor I made this product.

I'm not sure that I will be able to choose which kit gets made and which doesn't, nor do I want to. Both are necessary for this product to have achieved its goal of adding Chinese to the library, for all the reasons I've just said. It's incomplete without both. From what I'm hearing, the idea of converting orders is a nonstarter among the vendors. Just an absolute administrative nightmare in service of an incomplete outcome. The name of the game is still to hit MOQ for all kits, or to come so close that it makes financial sense to buy out the extras. I believe we can get there. Awareness of the set is starting to pick up, artisan collabs and giveaways are rolling in, and influencers are starting to take notice. The final week will decide everything. Thanks to those of you who have believed in the project enough to invest in it! Please share with your friends and networks and let's hope they'll do the same.

[dirtegg]

You've really hit the nail on the head with your grasp of Traditional vs. Simplified, in my opinion. As a Chinese American, it's hard to exactly articulate some of these reasons, but definitely unspoken is the feeling of identity and attachment to one or the other. I've tried to spread the word where I can, and hopefully we get this made!

[CobraLi]

I am a South African Chinese who grew up not being able to read/write Chinese. Then I went to China and studied SC for a year; now I am working in HK and learning how to read TC. I opted for the TC cause the character composition has so much meaning in them.

The difference between SC/TC is mainly political so let's not delve into that problem. If you were to offer the SC and TC set to Chinese buyers on Zfrontier I am sure it would meet MOQ and because some people in China actually like TC and study how to read it but can't write it (although some can!).

[grundlemere]

I think this is a great discussion and I'm glad we could have it openly here.

In other news, we have an official GMK Shanshui x Luze Cables giveaway going on on Instagram right now!

There are also a ton of beautiful collab artisans up for sale now and coming this weekend.


SodieCaps Ancient Taikonauts Space Jams and Moon Hill Crescent Caps


Destroyer Caps Rain Dogs RAWR!


Lo-Ki Studios Duality in Shili and Shaolin colorways


Rejeck Kaps Numbskull and OwO

Check out my Instagram for raffle and giveaway updates and notifications!

[Bunn3y]

Any news on the Salvun collaboration? I've been holding out on my purchase in waiting for it. Can't wait to see what it looks like.

[gordonderp]

Felt like a lot of love was put into this set, definitely in. Been waiting for a gmk set with chinese legends, just need somebody to make a WOB set with arabic sublegends.

[MK47]

How are the numbers looking? Just bought Old Path and Clear Water last night. Really hope this makes MOQ.

[grundlemere]

Thanks for your patience, everyone! I'm proud to announce that all kits will be made as we close in on MOQ! Thanks to everyone who joined, and if you've been waiting for this announcement to join, don't miss your chance to join before we close February 1.

Cheers and thanks for your support and for getting these molds made for the community.

Lots of updates on the Reddit update thread for more information.

[mustardgreens]

Thanks for your patience, everyone! I'm proud to announce that all kits will be made as we close in on MOQ! Thanks to everyone who joined, and if you've been waiting for this announcement to join, don't miss your chance to join before we close February 1.

Cheers and thanks for your support and for getting these molds made for the community.

Lots of updates on the Reddit update thread for more information.

My excitement is immeasurable and may day is made 
Awesome news, thank you for all your work making this happen.

[dirtegg]

Oh happy day indeed! Glad that these molds are now going to be introduced into the library, and of course overjoyed that the set will finally be happening!

[misswaffle]

So glad to hear that all kits will be made! I'm very excited for this set and any future sets with these new molds! Big thanks to you and all the people you worked with for creating this new Cangjie legend option.

[MMKB]

That’s good news!

I’m still on the fence only because how GMK implements the fonts on the modifiers (for manufacturing reasons). The strokes reminds me of Comic Sans sadly. Otherwise the alpha kit is neat.

[grundlemere]

Thanks so much, everyone. Really exciting to get this project off the ground. I want to tease something quickly...it's a long way off, after Houhai and after a top-secret Q3 project so don't let it stop you from joining the current GB! As I talked about months ago on the IC thread, where many community members requested BoW, while we couldn't get it done this round, we'll be offering it in R2 provided there's interest!


GMK Shanshui R2 BoW concept on J-02 LE


GMK Shanshui R2 BoW concept on TGR Jane v2 CE using BoW/Minimal mods

IC coming after the GB is over.

[dirtegg]

Oh this looks amazing. I'm actually glad you went with WoB this first round, since I don't like WoB typically since I find it a bit boring, but this was actually special enough for me to add to my collection.

[Abhorrent Cell]

I was on the fence but confirmation of an eventual BoW sold me. Bought in. Excited to someday mix/match with BoW.

[dvorcol]

[hotnoodle666]

Appreciate all your love and efforts to make this happen. Placed my order.