Author Topic: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live  (Read 23204 times)

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Offline grundlemere

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[GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« on: Thu, 24 December 2020, 11:44:32 »
GMK Shanshui 山水

The long path home.

Available now from vendors everywhere.







Jagged peaks rise like the teeth of some long-fallen colossus from the horizon, worn to harmlessness by water, foliage, and time. A placid thread of water weaves among them. For ages, the water has borne rafts carrying silent, wizened men and their gently chattering companions: great, fearsome waterfowl perched on long bamboo canes. They are ancient cormorants, eyes smoldering like lanterns. Part duck, part eagle, part feathered hunting dog, they slip beneath the currents with hush and speed and return with throats full of wriggling fish, dutifully disgorging their catch for a treat and a gentle stroke.

In few places does man live in such harmony with nature; in few places is man so noble an animal. For those who have been to the Li River (Lijiang in Chinese), it’s unforgettable. For those who have not, they have surely seen the ghosts of the mountains and water conjured from memory and ink. Perhaps no other subject is depicted so often in shanshuihua, the Chinese style of ink painting perfectly suited to capture the layered depth of the South China Karst and the reflections off the tranquil waters of the Lijiang. Literally “mountain-water-painting” in the Chinese, these words are immortalized in the local slogan of this stretch of the Lijiang between Guilin and Yangshuo: 山水甲天下, “the best landscapes under heaven.”


About the set

GMK Shanshui is a white-on-black Cherry profile keycap set designed to capture both the enduring shanshui images of the Lijiang and the essence of the uniquely Chinese artform of shanshuihua, practiced by artists in China and around the world. Designed by Grundlemere of Fort Stevens Mercantile, conceived and rendered by NathanAlphaMan of Alpha Design.

Base keys are molded in GMK stock CR black, with legends rendered in crisp stock WS1, matching existing WoB sets and kits, and compatible with other monochrome Cherry profile keys. The base kit offers sublegends in Cangjie, while modifiers are rendered in both Simplified and Traditional Chinese + icons—the first GMK legends in true Chinese characters.

See a full gallery of board and scene renders

Follow me on IG @grundlemere for photos and project updates, and feel free to reach out on Discord at grundlemere#1126 with questions or to say hello. New: join my Discord server for updates!


Production timeline

Production estimated at 36 weeks from order placement in February 2021, expected to ship from manufacturer in Q4 2021.


Updates

  • December 24: GB posted
  • December 29: Production legend kit renders added to Inkstone and Old Path kits
  • December 31: All production legend kit renders added
  • January 1: GB live


Vendors

Available from these vendors for group buy January 1, 2021.

US: Cannonkeys
China: Zfrontier/English
SE Asia: iLumkb
Europe: CandyKeys
Oceania: Daily Clack
Canada: Deskhero.ca
UK (non-EU): Prototypist.net


Kits

Inkstone 砚台: the Simplified Chinese base kit


The Simplified Chinese base kit offers sublegends in the Cangjie Chinese typing system, while modifiers are rendered in Simplified Chinese + icons—the first GMK legends in true Chinese characters. Designed to cover a wide range of layouts. Included numpad is rendered in Chinese financial numerals as monolegends. Alphas include basic special Chinese punctuation sublegends.

Old Path 旧路: the Traditional Chinese base kit


The Traditional Chinese base kit offers sublegends in the Cangjie Chinese typing system, while modifiers are rendered in Traditional Chinese + icons—the first GMK legends in true Chinese characters. Designed to cover a wide range of layouts. Included numpad is rendered in Chinese financial numerals as monolegends. Alphas include basic special Chinese punctuation sublegends.

Clear Water 清水: the Cangjie monolegend alphas kit


A complete alphanumeric kit with Cangjie Chinese character monolegends, and duplicate modifiers and spacebars to assist base kit buyers in covering a second board if desired. Includes both Simplified and Traditional Chinese character alpha supplements and east/south/west/north Chinese character arrow keys. Recommended for compatibility with GMK WoB, Minimal, and other monochrome sets.

Lijiang 漓江: the novelties kit


Novelties feature images, real and imagined, of the Li River between Guilin and Yangshuo, China, in Guangxi Province amid the world-famous South China Karst geologic formations. Novelty icons include:
  • Nighttime scenes of the local mountain and river landscape (shanshui),
  • the famous Moon Hill (a karst mountain with an enormous hole through the base, famed for rock climbing),
  • the fishing cormorant,
  • the ubiquitous “phoenix tail” bamboo that lines the banks of the Lijiang,
  • the traditional lantern hung on the eaves of the winding streets of Yangshuo,
  • a vignette of local South China architecture,
  • alternate BoW Esc/Enter keys in TC and SC.

Negative Space 留白: the spacebars kit


Includes non-traditional spacebars and spacekeys, as well as variant WS1 bars for a distinctive touch.


Pricing

KitsCannon.keys
(prices in USD)
Zfrontier/English
(prices in RMB/USD)
iLumkb
(prices in SGD)
CandyKeys
(prices in EUR)
Prototypist.net
(prices in GBP)
Deskhero.ca
(prices in CAD)
Daily Clack
(prices in AUD)
Inkstone 砚台: the Simplified Chinese base kit (154pcs)$134.99¥968/$168$180€129.99£119$177$178
Old Path 旧路: the Traditional Chinese base kit (154pcs)$134.99¥968/$168$180€129.99£119$177$178
Clear Water 清水: the Cangjie monolegend alphas kit (67pcs)$79.99¥544/$88$106.50€75£69$105$105
Lijiang 漓江: the novelties kit (23pcs)$44.99¥302/$49$60€42£39$59$59
Negative Space 留白: the spacebars kit (13pcs)$27.99¥184/$31$37€28£25$37$37


Hand-worked Legends

The original kit legends were rendered in Noto Sans SC and TC Bold 500, an open-source font that I found clean and to be a close match to the GMK standard Latin font. However, GMK specs require a certain degree of rounded corners, stroke width, negative space between strokes, and, most significantly, a relatively large minimum size of any interior negative space within a figure. I spent most of November completely overhauling the legends to meet the specs: adding cutaways to minute interior spaces, broadening strokes, narrowing and straightening negative space, rounding corners, and in a few cases where it was unavoidable, simplifying elements altogether.

This represents my best efforts to adhere to the integrity of the written Chinese language and to create a consistent typography that will serve not only this set but all sets that will use these legends to come. These legends are essentially as detailed as GMK's machining will allow while maintaining consistent character size with conventional mod and alpha legend sizing. I hope you are as pleased with how they've turned out as I am, and I'm pleased to present them in the base kits and will add all kit renders before the group buy begins. Please note that while we plan to add three keyboard renders using these hand-adjusted production legends, most of the boards we rendered used the concept legends as they were created before the GMK review and retooling. If you see a discrepancy in the legend shape, or are curious which ones will appear in the final product, please visually match them with the image below or just ask.

Special thanks to A.Jakkkke for his final review of the character forms and his extremely helpful suggestions.



Here's a link to download a full-size image and see all the detail


Keyboard renders











See a full gallery of keyboard renders


Collaborations



Luxe Cables is offering a themed Shanshui aviator cable all month, with delicately inked white paracord and branded aviator connectors in inkstone or black. Group buy goes live at noon CST January 1.

Digital Carpentry is offering GMK Shanshui branded custom wood wrist rests tailored to your keyboard in a range of rare woods, with or without resin infill, with many split layout options available. Orders already rolling in, get yours in early!

Digital Carpentry for custom branded rare wood wrist rests
Luxe Cables for a set-matched aviator cable
RAMA WORKS for metal artisan keycaps
Salvun for artisan keycaps in bronze
Latrialum for collab artisan keycaps in resin
DE∆Gcaps for a collab artisan keycap in resin
Sodie Caps for collab artisan keycaps in resin
Destroyer Caps for collab artisan keycaps in resin
Bludgeoned Kaps for collab artisan keycaps in resin
Rascal Caps for collab artisan keycaps in resin
Frumpzkeys for collab artisan keycaps in resin
Fraktal Kaps for collab artisan keycaps in resin
Rejeck Kaps for collab artisan keycaps in resin
Froue Loop for a collab multimedia artisan keycap

If you’re a maker or artisan, I’d love to work with you to develop an exclusive collaboration for GMK Shanshui or a future set. Please get in touch!


RAMA WORKS artisan keycaps


All three GMK Shanshui x RAMA artisans


The Shan cap, in anodized black aluminum and white enamel fill, with the character 山 (“mountain”) in ancient Liushutong script - RRP $38 USD


The Shui cap, in e-white aluminum and black enamel fill, with the character 水 (“water”) in Liushutong script - RRP $43 USD


The Chop cap, rendered in deep red enamel on black PVD brass, displaying my adopted Chinese surname 魏 in a yin seal script imprint with a slight off-axis tilt. - RRP $58 USD


Deskmats


Rafts 钓鱼筏 deskmat: An ink painting of traditional fishing rafts afloat on the Li River beneath the leaning phoenix tail bamboo, emblazoned with the Shanshui logo chop at bottom left. Based on artwork by Baoyan.


Karst 岩溶 deskmat: an ink painting of the South China Karst seen through the mist with the inscription, "best scenery under heaven" (山水甲天下), an unofficial local slogan of the Li River area. No seal for users who prefer a completely monochrome look. Based on artwork by Elina Li.


Relationship to GMK Houhai

GMK Shanshui is the predecessor set to GMK Houhai, enabling the molds for Houhai, a far more complicated and prohibitively expensive set, to be produced using stock colors at an attractive price point. In the wise words of one vendor with far better business sense than most designers, “you can have 80+ new molds, or you can have seven custom RAL colors, but you can’t have both.” Hence, the long path home.

If you are a Houhai supporter, the best way you can help make that set possible is to support this set, and to let our existing vendors know that you want GMK Houhai to follow shortly on the heels of GMK Shanshui.


Sharing the Cangjie legends

Designers interested in using the Chinese-language legends we’ve created are welcome and encouraged to reach out for design files to use in their renders, free of charge.

This is likely my last set design to use Chinese character legends—I don’t want to get typecast as the Chinese keycap guy! But I hope that other designers will take up the mantle and use these legends to produce beautiful work, as others have with Hiragana and Hangul legend designs.


Acknowledgements

This design goes to the great people of China, the Chinese-speaking world, and the Chinese diaspora, who contribute so much to our community through their creativity, passion, knowledge, and work. You changed my life and I’ll never be the same. Also,

NathanAlphaMan for the incredible collaborative partnership, the initial idea to do Houhai as a WoB set, the gorgeous renders, and the critical feedback
Michael at Digital Carpentry, for being my first partner, my biggest sounding board, and my unrelenting critic
Exclusive, for the cultural translation help and his friendship
Alex, for the kernel of the idea of what Shanshui would become
Upas, for taking a chance on this set, and his important advice
Louis, for his kindness, his passion for my work, and his partnership
Jae, for his honesty and sense, and for the use of his beautiful J-01 and J-02 models
LBaron and the S+R team, for making their gorgeous Iron165 and Iron180 models available
A.Jakkkke for helping me make this set as good as it can be.


Thanks for reading this far and thank you for your feedback.

Show your support for GMK Shanshui with this signature banner!

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[url=https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=108587.0][img]https://i.imgur.com/uf2jvDn.png[/img][/url]
« Last Edit: Fri, 01 January 2021, 16:41:45 by grundlemere »

Offline Signature

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - January 1-31, 2021
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 25 December 2020, 12:43:51 »
Add estimated production time and shipping date
If you need any GB or classifieds post approved send me a

Offline grundlemere

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - January 1-31, 2021
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 25 December 2020, 13:01:41 »
Add estimated production time and shipping date

Done, thanks

Offline Signature

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - January 1-31, 2021
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 25 December 2020, 17:12:57 »
approved
If you need any GB or classifieds post approved send me a

Offline koenoe

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - January 1-31, 2021
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 25 December 2020, 17:26:30 »
NICE

Offline snelltrail

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - January 1-31, 2021
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 25 December 2020, 18:14:27 »
This is awesome and I'll definitely be buying a set. However, I think it's really important that the GB thread renders and images used on storefront pages accurately reflect the redesigned GMK-spec legends, which doesn't yet appear to be the case.

The GB thread OP still has this quote


I'm looking forward to seeing them in the next round of NathanAlphaMan's kit renders, which we're hoping will be done over the US Thanksgiving break.


from the IC. Hopefully you are in the process of getting more renders done, and these will be available in time for the launch of the GB.

I'm very excited for this set, but I think it's extremely important that people know exactly what they're paying for.

Offline grundlemere

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - January 1-31, 2021
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 25 December 2020, 18:38:22 »
It’s also very important to me that this work is completed before the GB. Renders of the production legends are due any day from my partner and he understands the importance of making sure the GB opens with an accurate representation of the product. I appreciate you bringing this up so I can take the opportunity to say we will make sure that happens!

This is awesome and I'll definitely be buying a set. However, I think it's really important that the GB thread renders and images used on storefront pages accurately reflect the redesigned GMK-spec legends, which doesn't yet appear to be the case.

The GB thread OP still has this quote


I'm looking forward to seeing them in the next round of NathanAlphaMan's kit renders, which we're hoping will be done over the US Thanksgiving break.


from the IC. Hopefully you are in the process of getting more renders done, and these will be available in time for the launch of the GB.

I'm very excited for this set, but I think it's extremely important that people know exactly what they're paying for.

Offline maxohmax

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - January 1-31, 2021
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 25 December 2020, 23:29:57 »
in
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Offline yuejia

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - January 1-31, 2021
« Reply #8 on: Sat, 26 December 2020, 09:23:49 »
It’s really Nice!! That is so beautiful!!

Offline ooopsy

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - January 1-31, 2021
« Reply #9 on: Sat, 26 December 2020, 12:19:03 »
I think the traditional chinese Old Path set is so great!
Definitely grab at least one, or maybe more!
Sorry to be a perfectionist, the only problem in the set is on the numpad.
The digit 2 and 6 are still in simplified chinese (贰 and 陆).
The correct form should be 貳 as 2 and 陸 as 6.
Since it is only appeared on the kit render, I guess it would be fine in final production.
« Last Edit: Sat, 26 December 2020, 12:22:11 by ooopsy »

Offline grundlemere

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - January 1-31, 2021
« Reply #10 on: Sat, 26 December 2020, 16:34:42 »
I think the traditional chinese Old Path set is so great!
Definitely grab at least one, or maybe more!
Sorry to be a perfectionist, the only problem in the set is on the numpad.
The digit 2 and 6 are still in simplified chinese (贰 and 陆).
The correct form should be 貳 as 2 and 陸 as 6.
Since it is only appeared on the kit render, I guess it would be fine in final production.

Yes, it's been corrected in final production, with renders coming before GB. You can see the final production legends here: https://i.imgur.com/ittJurC.png Thanks for the catch, though.

Offline snelltrail

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - January 1-31, 2021
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 27 December 2020, 03:27:34 »
It’s also very important to me that this work is completed before the GB. Renders of the production legends are due any day from my partner and he understands the importance of making sure the GB opens with an accurate representation of the product. I appreciate you bringing this up so I can take the opportunity to say we will make sure that happens!

This is awesome and I'll definitely be buying a set. However, I think it's really important that the GB thread renders and images used on storefront pages accurately reflect the redesigned GMK-spec legends, which doesn't yet appear to be the case.

The GB thread OP still has this quote


I'm looking forward to seeing them in the next round of NathanAlphaMan's kit renders, which we're hoping will be done over the US Thanksgiving break.


from the IC. Hopefully you are in the process of getting more renders done, and these will be available in time for the launch of the GB.

I'm very excited for this set, but I think it's extremely important that people know exactly what they're paying for.

Awesome to hear, thank you for bringing this amazing set to GB, and for the creation of these epic new mods.

Offline grundlemere

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - January 1-31, 2021
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 27 December 2020, 08:49:50 »
Kit renders should be posted later today. They were finished early this morning but aren't in my drive yet.

Offline Sup

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - January 1-31, 2021
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 27 December 2020, 10:30:43 »
I promised my self not to buy another GMK set but why you do me like this  ^-^ . I guess another set for the collection :)
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Offline grundlemere

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - January 1-31, 2021
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 27 December 2020, 11:50:32 »
I promised my self not to buy another GMK set but why you do me like this  ^-^ . I guess another set for the collection :)

Awww, sorry to do it to you, but thanks for the kind words! I hope you love it!

Offline Zyres

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - January 1-31, 2021
« Reply #15 on: Sun, 27 December 2020, 12:21:28 »
Hey I'm chinese but I don't get how the keyboard works. Why is one of the words just 月,女,日,木。Do they have significance based on the location on the keyboard? (I only type in pinyin)



Offline kidviddy

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - January 1-31, 2021
« Reply #16 on: Sun, 27 December 2020, 12:42:08 »
Hey I'm chinese but I don't get how the keyboard works. Why is one of the words just 月,女,日,木。Do they have significance based on the location on the keyboard? (I only type in pinyin)

Cangjie works based on the shape of the characters, rather than the sound of the characters like pinyin or zhuyin.  There’s a really good guide to how to use it here, which I’ve been using to try and learn the system.  It’s a very different way of typing! The advantage is that you don’t need to select from a list of alternative characters like you do with phonetic input methods, so in theory once you’ve learnt it it should be possible to touch-type quicker than you can in pinyin.

As an example, taking the simple phrase 你好. The first character is broken down into three parts: 人 (the person radical on the left), 弓 (the “hook” at the top-right), and 火 (the “small” radical at the bottom-right, which is close-ish to “fire”).  The second character is also split into three parts, despite only looking like two radicals: 女 on the left, and on the right 弓 and 木. Learning how these base characters map to components of other characters is a major part of learning the system and is summarised on this page.

Hope that helps!
« Last Edit: Sun, 27 December 2020, 12:43:43 by kidviddy »

Offline grundlemere

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - January 1-31, 2021
« Reply #17 on: Sun, 27 December 2020, 13:24:41 »
Kidviddy really went and learned how to type in Cangjie. His understanding of it is a lot better than mine. I think for most users, it will be decorative...I myself only type in pinyin. However, I really love the look of Cangjie vs bopomofo as it uses full character legends, and it’s the most popular system to do so, so that what I went with. For me, I will probably use the monolegends simply to touch type in Chinese and English, but Kidviddy has inspired me to try to learn Cangjie, I think.

Hey I'm chinese but I don't get how the keyboard works. Why is one of the words just 月,女,日,木。Do they have significance based on the location on the keyboard? (I only type in pinyin)

Hey I'm chinese but I don't get how the keyboard works. Why is one of the words just 月,女,日,木。Do they have significance based on the location on the keyboard? (I only type in pinyin)


Cangjie works based on the shape of the characters, rather than the sound of the characters like pinyin or zhuyin.  There’s a really good guide to how to use it here, which I’ve been using to try and learn the system.  It’s a very different way of typing! The advantage is that you don’t need to select from a list of alternative characters like you do with phonetic input methods, so in theory once you’ve learnt it it should be possible to touch-type quicker than you can in pinyin.

As an example, taking the simple phrase 你好. The first character is broken down into three parts: 人 (the person radical on the left), 弓 (the “hook” at the top-right), and 火 (the “small” radical at the bottom-right, which is close-ish to “fire”).  The second character is also split into three parts, despite only looking like two radicals: 女 on the left, and on the right 弓 and 木. Learning how these base characters map to components of other characters is a major part of learning the system and is summarised on this page.

Hope that helps!


Offline ccomm89

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - January 1-31, 2021
« Reply #18 on: Sun, 27 December 2020, 13:43:39 »
Hey I'm chinese but I don't get how the keyboard works. Why is one of the words just 月,女,日,木。Do they have significance based on the location on the keyboard? (I only type in pinyin)

Cangjie works based on the shape of the characters, rather than the sound of the characters like pinyin or zhuyin.  There’s a really good guide to how to use it here, which I’ve been using to try and learn the system.  It’s a very different way of typing! The advantage is that you don’t need to select from a list of alternative characters like you do with phonetic input methods, so in theory once you’ve learnt it it should be possible to touch-type quicker than you can in pinyin.

As an example, taking the simple phrase 你好. The first character is broken down into three parts: 人 (the person radical on the left), 弓 (the “hook” at the top-right), and 火 (the “small” radical at the bottom-right, which is close-ish to “fire”).  The second character is also split into three parts, despite only looking like two radicals: 女 on the left, and on the right 弓 and 木. Learning how these base characters map to components of other characters is a major part of learning the system and is summarised on this page.

Hope that helps!

Very well explained! My understanding is that Cangjie is similar to stroke counting but is way more efficient and elegant.
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Offline kidviddy

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - January 1-31, 2021
« Reply #19 on: Sun, 27 December 2020, 15:07:10 »
For me, I will probably use the monolegends simply to touch type in Chinese and English, but Kidviddy has inspired me to try to learn Cangjie, I think.

It was your set which inspired me to learn both Chinese and Cangjie in the first place, so thanks! I do think learning the basics of Cangjie -- how the secondary signs relate to the 24 main signs, and the codes for a few words or phrases -- is worth the investment. Breaking down the characters exercises the brain in a very different way, and for us learners of Chinese as a second language it really forces you to think about how the characters are constructed, which reinforces your knowledge of the hanzi.  On the other hand, it does allow you to type in Chinese without paying any attention to tones, which are probably the thing I struggle with the most in my study of Chinese, so I should really spend some time using a phonetic system just to make sure I remember which tone to use for which word!

Very well explained! My understanding is that Cangjie is similar to stroke counting but is way more efficient and elegant.

Thanks! It is, indeed, quite similar to breaking characters down by stroke or radical, but for those who are used to hand-writing Chinese characters it can be quite counter-intuitive, as the characters are divided according to different rules. Which is more elegant is probably in the eye of the beholder: the guide I linked above puts it well when it says "如果說筆順輸入法像執筆寫字,倉頡輸入法就像用剪刀把漢字剪開" (Google Translate: "If the stroke order input method is like writing with a pen, the Cangjie input method is like cutting Chinese characters with scissors"). There is a sort of pragmatic, industrial elegance to the way cangjie works, but in another sense I think there is a beauty to the way that Chinese characters are built up out of radicals, which are themselves built up of strokes, and those strokes flow into each other in a well-defined and artistic way that has evolved over millennia; that beauty and history is discarded by the Cangjie system in favour of a division which allows every character to be expressed uniquely in no more than 5 keystrokes on a 24/26 character keyboard (重 and 難 are special) -- an impressive intellectual feat, but one driven by pragmatism and necessity rather than elegance or beauty, in my view.
« Last Edit: Sun, 27 December 2020, 15:29:20 by kidviddy »

Offline ccomm89

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - January 1-31, 2021
« Reply #20 on: Sun, 27 December 2020, 17:24:53 »
Thanks! It is, indeed, quite similar to breaking characters down by stroke or radical, but for those who are used to hand-writing Chinese characters it can be quite counter-intuitive, as the characters are divided according to different rules. Which is more elegant is probably in the eye of the beholder: the guide I linked above puts it well when it says "如果說筆順輸入法像執筆寫字,倉頡輸入法就像用剪刀把漢字剪開" (Google Translate: "If the stroke order input method is like writing with a pen, the Cangjie input method is like cutting Chinese characters with scissors").

This is so true! Just did a little research and the rules of Cangjie are indeed very different from radicals or pinyin. I have a feeling that, at some stages, Cangjie is using inference (or association) in order to limit the code length.
For example, the code of "直" is "十月一一" (JBMM), which makes perfect sense (imo, this is a high-efficient version of radicals). However, the code of "矗" is "十一十一一"(JMJMM) instead of "十月一一十月一一十月一一" (JBMMJBMMJBMM) or "十月一一3" (JBMM3). One would easily mix "矗" with "垚" ("土土土" (GGG)). For me, this is not very intuitive. Maybe after practicing, this would not be an issue at all but for starters the learning curve will definitely be steep.

* IMG_0798.jpg (1231.3 kB - downloaded 12 times.)

That being said, Cangjie is still better than Pinyin in many aspects, such as dealing with words that are hard to pronounce.  :D
And yes, I'll definitely in this GB  :thumb:
« Last Edit: Sun, 27 December 2020, 17:28:41 by ccomm89 »
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Offline radeats

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - January 1-31, 2021
« Reply #21 on: Sun, 27 December 2020, 19:41:52 »
Super NICE

Offline Smoff

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - January 1-31, 2021
« Reply #22 on: Sun, 27 December 2020, 23:37:36 »
Hyped for this one

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Offline dRnRcRr

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - January 1-31, 2021
« Reply #23 on: Mon, 28 December 2020, 00:38:23 »
I like this set.

Offline hottrout

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - January 1-31, 2021
« Reply #24 on: Mon, 28 December 2020, 04:52:09 »
Great, looking forward to it.
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Offline Afresh

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - January 1-31, 2021
« Reply #25 on: Mon, 28 December 2020, 05:21:46 »
legends!!! interested  :thumb:

Offline outerspace

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - January 1-31, 2021
« Reply #26 on: Mon, 28 December 2020, 07:38:22 »
Beautiful set and the RAMA caps are incredible! It would be super cool if the entire set can be done using Liushutong script ... one can dream :-)

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - January 1-31, 2021
« Reply #27 on: Mon, 28 December 2020, 18:42:02 »
Is there a list, by any chance, of the exact number and specification of keys that are different between the Inkstone and the Old Path base kits?

I can compare them by eye by looking at each render back and forth (ctrl-tabbing between them), but it'd be nice to see the differences just listed out in their equivalent ANSI keys (e.g. Prt Scr, Scroll Look, Insert, numpad Enter, etc)

Offline grundlemere

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - January 1-31, 2021
« Reply #28 on: Tue, 29 December 2020, 09:33:44 »
Is there a list, by any chance, of the exact number and specification of keys that are different between the Inkstone and the Old Path base kits?

I can compare them by eye by looking at each render back and forth (ctrl-tabbing between them), but it'd be nice to see the differences just listed out in their equivalent ANSI keys (e.g. Prt Scr, Scroll Look, Insert, numpad Enter, etc)

I have a graphic of the legends that are different in TC vs. SC, if that's what you mean. It's just a quick-and-dirty paste job I did for GMK to get a tally of the mew molds required to make the TC kit, but it should give you the information you're looking for.



Beautiful set and the RAMA caps are incredible! It would be super cool if the entire set can be done using Liushutong script ... one can dream :-)

You should design it! Might be hard to get the molds done for doubleshot, but that would be a fantastic KAT set...

Offline grundlemere

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - January 1-31, 2021
« Reply #29 on: Tue, 29 December 2020, 09:48:48 »
Kit renders of production legends that meet GMK specs have been added for Inkstone and Old Path kits, and an updated explanation of the hand-worked legends has been posted. Monolegend and novelty kit renders forthcoming in the next day (or so).

Offline santela

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - January 1-31, 2021
« Reply #30 on: Wed, 30 December 2020, 05:46:02 »
I learned so much from this thread, and thanks for having two separate sets of sc and tc so I don't have to get extra kits just to have tc. Also wanna point out the iso enter on the traditional kit render seems to still be sc. Pretty sure it doesn't matter as it's only a render but wanna point that out just in case.

Offline grundlemere

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - January 1-31, 2021
« Reply #31 on: Wed, 30 December 2020, 10:52:58 »
I learned so much from this thread, and thanks for having two separate sets of sc and tc so I don't have to get extra kits just to have tc. Also wanna point out the iso enter on the traditional kit render seems to still be sc. Pretty sure it doesn't matter as it's only a render but wanna point that out just in case.

Oof, thanks for spotting that. Nathan and I missed it. Should be an easy fix.

Offline Bunn3y

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - January 1-31, 2021
« Reply #32 on: Thu, 31 December 2020, 01:50:42 »
Hi Grundlemere, congrats on getting to GB. Also, I am so happy that you are able to offer TC as a separate base kit. I will definitely be in this GB. :D

Offline grundlemere

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - January 1-31, 2021
« Reply #33 on: Thu, 31 December 2020, 08:57:09 »
Thanks, Bunny! Just added some new kit images to the post. New board renders coming later today. Will update you all when I have product page links!

Offline CobraLi

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - January 1-31, 2021
« Reply #34 on: Thu, 31 December 2020, 10:13:27 »
I am eagerly awaiting the groupbuy opening!

Offline Bamboo238

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - January 1-31, 2021
« Reply #35 on: Thu, 31 December 2020, 10:20:43 »
This is a great initiative and I'm looking forward to it. I would also be very interested in a black on white/beige set in the future!

Offline grundlemere

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - January 1-February 1, 2021
« Reply #36 on: Fri, 01 January 2021, 09:28:24 »
Happy New Year! GMK Shanshui 山水 is live in most territories with others opening shortly. Please see top post for links to buy and more news.

Offline grundlemere

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #37 on: Fri, 01 January 2021, 21:24:18 »
Oh, forgot to post that all vendor product pages are now live! Linked in first post.

Offline productkun

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #38 on: Fri, 01 January 2021, 21:29:29 »
Got traditional, novelties and base, I did my part!

Offline grundlemere

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #39 on: Fri, 01 January 2021, 22:24:12 »
Got traditional, novelties and base, I did my part!

Thank you for your service!

Offline maxohmax

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #40 on: Sat, 02 January 2021, 11:52:04 »
bought into base, love the design and the fact that it can be color-matched with WoB
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Offline MMKB

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #41 on: Sat, 02 January 2021, 11:52:40 »
Quote
The original kit legends were rendered in Noto Sans SC and TC Bold 500, an open-source font that I found clean and to be a close match to the GMK standard Latin font. However, GMK specs require a certain degree of rounded corners, stroke width, negative space between strokes, and, most significantly, a relatively large minimum size of any interior negative space within a figure. I spent most of November completely overhauling the legends to meet the specs: adding cutaways to minute interior spaces, broadening strokes, narrowing and straightening negative space, rounding corners, and in a few cases where it was unavoidable, simplifying elements altogether.

No wonder the font looks less “straight”. Really appreciate your effort going into this  :thumb:
        

Offline oscarhung1011

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #42 on: Sat, 02 January 2021, 13:49:20 »
kinda cringe looking at the enter key as a hongkonger

Offline grundlemere

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #43 on: Sat, 02 January 2021, 16:28:45 »
Well, deskmats already hit MOQ after first day, though that was not a high hurdle! Other numbers...we are still waiting on most of our vendors to report back. Yesterday was obviously a holiday and only one vendor had a complete 24 hours of sales to report. Hoping for tomorrow for where we stand on order quantities, but what we’ve been hearing from vendors in US, Canada, and UK has been promising!

Offline tofulo

  • Posts: 38
Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #44 on: Sun, 03 January 2021, 09:57:01 »
Been waiting for this set for a while. Not sure why shipping for the deskmat costs the same as the deskmat itself though :(

Offline hottrout

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #45 on: Mon, 04 January 2021, 04:59:04 »
All ordered, best looking deskmats ever.
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Offline mustardgreens

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #46 on: Mon, 04 January 2021, 12:57:38 »
Ordered, have never been so excited for a set.

Offline grundlemere

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #47 on: Mon, 04 January 2021, 17:47:44 »
Ordered, have never been so excited for a set.

All ordered, best looking deskmats ever.

Been waiting for this set for a while. Not sure why shipping for the deskmat costs the same as the deskmat itself though :(

Y'all are so wonderful. Thank you all. Numbers coming from dvorcol shortly.


Offline dvorcol

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #48 on: Mon, 04 January 2021, 17:55:53 »

Offline grundlemere

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #49 on: Tue, 05 January 2021, 09:22:19 »
dvorcol, you are such a community asset. Thanks so much for doing this beautiful graphic.

Great first day numbers, but we still have a long way to go. We have sailed past MOQ for the deskmats but the keysets need your support. Lot of great stuff out there but we hope you'll invest in this project to add Chinese to the library! The keyset looks pretty good too, if I do say so myself.

Offline DukeEsquire

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #50 on: Tue, 05 January 2021, 13:11:13 »
I've done my part with a few base kits. My concern is that there are two base kits which are extremely similar save for the mods. I feel like it would have been better to have one base kit and then optional mods.

Hopeful that both base kits will hit MOQ, but agreed that we need some help.

Offline grundlemere

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #51 on: Tue, 05 January 2021, 17:13:04 »
I've done my part with a few base kits. My concern is that there are two base kits which are extremely similar save for the mods. I feel like it would have been better to have one base kit and then optional mods.

Hopeful that both base kits will hit MOQ, but agreed that we need some help.

We appreciate you doing this. Initially I had planned the kitting as you would have preferred, but because nearly all the cost of the Traditional Chinese kit was tied up in the new molds, the mod-only kit I had planned was essentially as expensive as a base kit, putting Traditional Chinese users in the position of needing to buy $250+ worth of kits just to cover a board. Not only was this unfair, but a child kit at that price is also simply a non-starter.

Thanks for helping to put a dent in this for us. The choice was not welcome but was essentially no choice at all.

Offline mustardgreens

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #52 on: Thu, 07 January 2021, 11:57:56 »
Damn, I really hope this gets made. It would be a shame if it didn't, especially because other sets (GMK Tuzi, Houhai for example) will be able to take advantage of the new legends. But I am worried, as the MOQ is very high. 1000 base kits is a huge number for a niche product like this. But I believe in it

If you are reading this and are on the fence about supporting, please do!

Cangjie is good for Mandarin or Cantonese learners also, because it can help you "construct" the characters stroke by stroke, regardless of pronunciation. This is fun

Offline Lil

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #53 on: Thu, 07 January 2021, 19:06:15 »
I'm planning to join towards the end of the month for most of the kits, glwb

Offline jkteoh

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #54 on: Thu, 07 January 2021, 19:31:52 »
Planning on hopping on this closer to the end of the month as well. Keeping my fingers crossed this makes it - it'll be my first fancy AF keycaps but how can I not support such a carefully thought out set?

Offline grundlemere

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #55 on: Fri, 08 January 2021, 08:07:50 »
Planning on hopping on this closer to the end of the month as well. Keeping my fingers crossed this makes it - it'll be my first fancy AF keycaps but how can I not support such a carefully thought out set?

I'm planning to join towards the end of the month for most of the kits, glwb

Damn, I really hope this gets made. It would be a shame if it didn't, especially because other sets (GMK Tuzi, Houhai for example) will be able to take advantage of the new legends. But I am worried, as the MOQ is very high. 1000 base kits is a huge number for a niche product like this. But I believe in it

If you are reading this and are on the fence about supporting, please do!

Cangjie is good for Mandarin or Cantonese learners also, because it can help you "construct" the characters stroke by stroke, regardless of pronunciation. This is fun

Thanks everyone. GBs tend to fill closer to the end, with pay periods, FOMO, and every other factor putting pressure on the back end. I believe we will get this set done but it is critical to support it. I'm in for a lot of sets myself. (Guess what everyone is getting for Christmas?) I am really pleased with the theme of the set and all, but at the end of the day, this is an investment in GMK's language compatibility. Honestly it's kind of wild to hear but so many people are now learning Cangjie...I wonder if this will spark some kind of small revival?

I really appreciate your planned support and look forward to an update soon. We also have our first collabs going up in the next week and that should really get people going.

Offline CobraLi

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #56 on: Sat, 09 January 2021, 10:35:35 »
I got the Inkstone, Lijiang and Negative Space set! Also the Rama chop and Rafts deskmat as well! Eagerly awaiting this set!   ;D

Offline grundlemere

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #57 on: Sat, 09 January 2021, 14:17:00 »
I got the Inkstone, Lijiang and Negative Space set! Also the Rama chop and Rafts deskmat as well! Eagerly awaiting this set!   ;D

Thank you! Should look beautiful. What board are you planning on putting them on?

Offline CobraLi

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #58 on: Sun, 10 January 2021, 13:52:17 »
I got the Inkstone, Lijiang and Negative Space set! Also the Rama chop and Rafts deskmat as well! Eagerly awaiting this set!   ;D

Thank you! Should look beautiful. What board are you planning on putting them on?

I am debating between my KBDfans Maja (NK Creams) and my SC frosted Alice (Roselios). Then again I may join a group buy for a 75% Alice once I find a design that I am interested in.  ;D

Offline dirtegg

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #59 on: Sun, 10 January 2021, 18:40:44 »
Grabbed the Simplified, Monolegends, and Spacebars! I really hope that this set makes MOQ, since it would be a huge development in the keeb community if these legends became part of the GMK toolset! This is going to be my first WoB set too, as I was never swayed by the standard set but this is certainly something special  :))

Offline Leon_TheKing

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #60 on: Mon, 11 January 2021, 00:53:47 »
the only thing that puts me off is the chinese character on key S. it's not an auspicious word you want to see when typing, though I understand this is probably one of the composition words under Cangjie system. Look forward to your next set with Chinese legends (Houhai I believe?), will surely crop a few kits.

Offline dvorcol

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #61 on: Mon, 11 January 2021, 15:00:40 »

Offline grundlemere

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #62 on: Tue, 12 January 2021, 08:48:21 »
Still have quite a ways to go, folks. If you were thinking of joining this set, or Houhai, or any other set you'd like to see with the Chinese legends, now's the time.

This is our one shot to get this done and I hope you'll consider this as an investment in getting new (true, usable!) language compatibility added to the GMK font foundry for the community. I appreciate the support of so many folks who have skin in the game by buying sets. I can assure you that I, and the great, supportive vendors we have, do as well.

I feel a high degree of confidence that in the next couple of weeks I'll be back to tell you that all kits are being produced and we're getting this tooling made, but it's going to take your help.

In the meantime, join my giveaway on Instagram to win a keyset of your choice!

Offline Abhorrent Cell

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #63 on: Wed, 13 January 2021, 01:51:33 »
Def signing up for Inkstone and at least 2 Negative Space.

Hoping for a matching BoW set if this is a success!

Offline 390123emma

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #64 on: Wed, 13 January 2021, 03:01:25 »
Are the secondary legend functional? I am bilingual, I use pinyin only, I have no idea what the secondary legend is for.

Offline mustardgreens

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #65 on: Wed, 13 January 2021, 09:02:15 »
Are the secondary legend functional? I am bilingual, I use pinyin only, I have no idea what the secondary legend is for.

Canjie input method

Used to be common around HK. It's rarely used now. Cangjie allows you to type words stroke by stroke, radical by radical, rather than phonetically. It has a couple advantages: it could be good for people who know how to read and write but speak a dialect and don't know pinyin. It could also be useful for language learners too because it helps you memorize the structure of the characters. It's the input method that most closely resembles writing.

I think it's pretty cool, I use pinyin but I have wanted to learn cangjie for many years now, never got around to it. This set is the perfect excuse.

Offline grundlemere

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #66 on: Mon, 18 January 2021, 15:40:18 »
Numbers coming from dvorcol soon, and an update is up on Reddit. The orders are in, and all RAMAs and deskmats will be made, but the keycap kits still need your support. Join now at your local vendor at the top of the thread!

Online LightningXI

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #67 on: Mon, 18 January 2021, 16:39:28 »
Numbers aren't looking good. Any chance the runners will consider lumping Inkstone and Old Path together so there's hope to hit MOQ?


Offline dvorcol

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #68 on: Mon, 18 January 2021, 16:43:04 »

Offline mustardgreens

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #69 on: Mon, 18 January 2021, 17:47:05 »
Numbers aren't looking good. Any chance the runners will consider lumping Inkstone and Old Path together so there's hope to hit MOQ?

+1

I would like to see at least one of the base kits get made.

Offline grundlemere

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #70 on: Mon, 18 January 2021, 18:25:12 »
Numbers aren't looking good. Any chance the runners will consider lumping Inkstone and Old Path together so there's hope to hit MOQ?

I think there’s a good chance we can make up sales in the second half here, but this possibility has been raised and I’ll ask. I think the easiest way to do it would be to pick the set that’s leading and ask if buyers are willing to convert their orders. Let’s hope instead for second half numbers to get close enough to justify a buyout to get the molds made for both character sets!

Offline DukeEsquire

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #71 on: Mon, 18 January 2021, 22:10:15 »
Numbers aren't looking good. Any chance the runners will consider lumping Inkstone and Old Path together so there's hope to hit MOQ?

I think there’s a good chance we can make up sales in the second half here, but this possibility has been raised and I’ll ask. I think the easiest way to do it would be to pick the set that’s leading and ask if buyers are willing to convert their orders. Let’s hope instead for second half numbers to get close enough to justify a buyout to get the molds made for both character sets!

Agreed that is probably the best bet to hit MOQ.

Frankly, I don't think there is a ton of incremental benefit to having both traditional and simplified mods.

Offline grundlemere

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #72 on: Tue, 19 January 2021, 09:03:30 »
Numbers aren't looking good. Any chance the runners will consider lumping Inkstone and Old Path together so there's hope to hit MOQ?

I think there’s a good chance we can make up sales in the second half here, but this possibility has been raised and I’ll ask. I think the easiest way to do it would be to pick the set that’s leading and ask if buyers are willing to convert their orders. Let’s hope instead for second half numbers to get close enough to justify a buyout to get the molds made for both character sets!

Agreed that is probably the best bet to hit MOQ.

Frankly, I don't think there is a ton of incremental benefit to having both traditional and simplified mods.

That's not a sentiment most often shared in the Chinese-speaking world. The availability of both has been very important, both in our IC responses and in the discussion around it. I've had nearly a year of conversations with users around the world about this, including friends in both in Mainland China and in other Chinese-speaking territories. The use of Traditional vs. Simplified characters is deeply personal and political, and I heard from many users in TW and HK that they simply would not be interested in purchasing keycaps using SC, which many consider "not real" Chinese. At the same time, SC users, while intrigued by TC, outnumber TC users 25:1, so it doesn't make sense to sell TC only simply because a minority of users feel it's indispensable. The goal is to get the tooling made for both character sets to expand the library. My next set, GMK Houhai, for example, is inspired by the nights in Beijing, and it wouldn't make much sense not to offer Simplified characters in the city where they were invented and where all the signage that inspired them is written using them. Nor would it make sense for more traditionally themed sets like Shanshui, or others planned in the future by other designers, to offer only Simplified Chinese, and to expect TC users who see it as a bastardization to simply get with the program.

Plus, after talking with vendors, the idea of converting orders doesn't sound like it has much support. It would be a real nightmare to contact every buyer and convert and cancel a bunch of orders. Instead, we are going to try to sell 500 of each base kit, and I suspect that if it's close, we have a supportive group of vendors ready to make it happen. I'm already in for several sets myself, and so are many of the fans of this set and this project.

Bottom line: If you believe in this set, and in the community project of expanding GMK's tooling to include Chinese characters, the best thing you can do is to support it, and to promote this set to your friends and fellow community members.

Offline mustardgreens

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #73 on: Tue, 19 January 2021, 13:46:55 »
Agreed with everyone here really. Except this sentence:

Quote
At the same time, SC users, while intrigued by TC, outnumber TC users 25:1, so it doesn't make sense to sell TC only simply because a minority of users feel it's indispensable. The goal is to get the tooling made for both character sets to expand the library.

No. The goal is to give the purchasers what they paid for. This is not Houhai, this is Shanshui. Getting new moulds made and adding to the GMK librrary is amazing, I agree, but it is incidental. The main goal of someone running a GB must be to ensure that the customers get their product.

I know that modifying orders after the fact would be a pain in the ass for the vendors, because they'd probably have to refund orders and extend the GB (I don't see any other way). But if the alternative is to forsake the GB completely (knock on wood) then it should be given some consideration at least. I think that's all anyone is saying here.

As I see it, there are 3 possible outcomes:
A. At least one base kit reaches MOQ;
B. No base kit reaches MOQ. One kit is cancelled and purchasers are asked to support the other kit;
C. No base kit reaches MOQ. Project cancelled.

A is preferable to B, which is preferable to C. Agreed?

I reckon that most simplified users would still begrudgingly pay for traditional mods, rather than having no kits made. After all, karaoke is still sung in traditional and cangjie is historically a traditional input method. It's not unreasonable.

Yes, Houhai would be better in simplified. But this is not Houhai. (And there is a lot of overlap in the alphas anyway, which will help).

Anyway, good luck, I've been supporting this from day 1 and will continue to support!
« Last Edit: Tue, 19 January 2021, 15:19:19 by mustardgreens »

Offline dirtegg

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #74 on: Tue, 19 January 2021, 16:21:08 »
Quote

I reckon that most simplified users would still begrudgingly pay for traditional mods, rather than having no kits made. After all, karaoke is still sung in traditional and cangjie is historically a traditional input method. It's not unreasonable.


Great points made all around, I think at the end of the day a lot of us want this to succeed so are trying to find ways for it to happen. Fingers crossed we see a end-of-Jan push and maybe some generous vendors may take on the extras.

Take my opinion with a grain of salt as I am simply one customer, but I would most certainly not pay for traditional mods because, well, I can't read traditional. But I do see your point about it.

Offline DukeEsquire

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #75 on: Tue, 19 January 2021, 19:00:08 »
Numbers aren't looking good. Any chance the runners will consider lumping Inkstone and Old Path together so there's hope to hit MOQ?

I think there’s a good chance we can make up sales in the second half here, but this possibility has been raised and I’ll ask. I think the easiest way to do it would be to pick the set that’s leading and ask if buyers are willing to convert their orders. Let’s hope instead for second half numbers to get close enough to justify a buyout to get the molds made for both character sets!

Agreed that is probably the best bet to hit MOQ.

Frankly, I don't think there is a ton of incremental benefit to having both traditional and simplified mods.

That's not a sentiment most often shared in the Chinese-speaking world. The availability of both has been very important, both in our IC responses and in the discussion around it. I've had nearly a year of conversations with users around the world about this, including friends in both in Mainland China and in other Chinese-speaking territories. The use of Traditional vs. Simplified characters is deeply personal and political, and I heard from many users in TW and HK that they simply would not be interested in purchasing keycaps using SC, which many consider "not real" Chinese. At the same time, SC users, while intrigued by TC, outnumber TC users 25:1, so it doesn't make sense to sell TC only simply because a minority of users feel it's indispensable. The goal is to get the tooling made for both character sets to expand the library. My next set, GMK Houhai, for example, is inspired by the nights in Beijing, and it wouldn't make much sense not to offer Simplified characters in the city where they were invented and where all the signage that inspired them is written using them. Nor would it make sense for more traditionally themed sets like Shanshui, or others planned in the future by other designers, to offer only Simplified Chinese, and to expect TC users who see it as a bastardization to simply get with the program.

Plus, after talking with vendors, the idea of converting orders doesn't sound like it has much support. It would be a real nightmare to contact every buyer and convert and cancel a bunch of orders. Instead, we are going to try to sell 500 of each base kit, and I suspect that if it's close, we have a supportive group of vendors ready to make it happen. I'm already in for several sets myself, and so are many of the fans of this set and this project.

Bottom line: If you believe in this set, and in the community project of expanding GMK's tooling to include Chinese characters, the best thing you can do is to support it, and to promote this set to your friends and fellow community members.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but even in the TC set, aren't the alphas still in SC? So you end up with a mix of SC and TC on a board.

I'm Chinese, but grew up in the US so I have some idea of the political push to create a standardize SC over TC, but isn't it weird to have a mix of SC and TC on one board?

Offline grundlemere

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #76 on: Wed, 20 January 2021, 06:41:45 »
This is a response to your comment, though the quote thread was getting a bit long.

The answer is no, the alphas in each set are particular to the character set they represent. In fact, all but six of the alphas are the same in TC and SC. Two Latin letter keys (火、女) and three numerals (七、八、零) are different based on stroke angle, and are rendered differently in each set. One character (難) I included the TC form in both kits on advice that the SC version looked wrong. In only this one instance does a TC character appear on the SC kit, deliberately so. TC and SC are in no other way mixed.

Offline DukeEsquire

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #77 on: Wed, 20 January 2021, 10:45:17 »
This is a response to your comment, though the quote thread was getting a bit long.

The answer is no, the alphas in each set are particular to the character set they represent. In fact, all but six of the alphas are the same in TC and SC. Two Latin letter keys (火、女) and three numerals (七、八、零) are different based on stroke angle, and are rendered differently in each set. One character (難) I included the TC form in both kits on advice that the SC version looked wrong. In only this one instance does a TC character appear on the SC kit, deliberately so. TC and SC are in no other way mixed.

Ah, got it. That is helpful to know. Thanks!

Offline jkteoh

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #78 on: Wed, 20 January 2021, 10:57:00 »
Hey Grundlemere - really appreciate your attention to both TC and SC users. It's definitely a thing, and this kind of attentiveness is why I'm so supportive of this project.

Far too many folks like to cash in on East Asian culture without actually figuring out what matters to the communities they're making products off of. Our language and writing isn't just "a cool font" for folks to show off their "worldliness" or whatever visual high they get off of seeing foreign letters on their keyboards.

Definitely agree about the importance and difference between TC/SC. Grew up with both and it's a bit like switching from ANSI to ISO, or going from a standard keyboard to a split or ergo staggered, except worse. It throws people off. Imagine if every letter you're reading right now just suddenly started to look different, enough where you have to start using Google translate just to read it. Yeesh. It's like the difference between "fun" and "craic."

I agree with the others that at least one of the kits made would be preferable. I'm not sure if a TC or SC kit - if forced to choose - which would be the right choice and I don't envy the choice you might have to make. But, from your comments here and elsewhere, at least I know you're doing the best you can and understand the significance of it.

Sidenote: Comparing SC/TC and using karaoke as an excuse is just silly. I don't need to read Japanese to be able to sing along to Ayumi Hamasaki. I can recognize the tones and I just need the timing. I don't need to be able to read and spell supercalifragilisticexpialidocious accurately to sing along to it in Mary Poppins. It's simpler with SC/TC because the words are pronounced the same even if they are written differently.

Offline mustardgreens

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #79 on: Wed, 20 January 2021, 12:32:48 »
Quote
Sidenote: Comparing SC/TC and using karaoke as an excuse is just silly. I don't need to read Japanese to be able to sing along to Ayumi Hamasaki.


My point in referencing KTV was merely that many SC users can use and are willing to use TC on occasion (whereas the inverse is often not true). I am not arguing in favour of one or the other, I was just trying to provide a potential solution in the event that the GB is short on orders.
« Last Edit: Wed, 20 January 2021, 12:34:21 by mustardgreens »

Offline ThomasTaiTai

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #80 on: Wed, 20 January 2021, 12:56:15 »
Quote
Sidenote: Comparing SC/TC and using karaoke as an excuse is just silly. I don't need to read Japanese to be able to sing along to Ayumi Hamasaki.


My point in referencing KTV was merely that many SC users can use and are willing to use TC on occasion (whereas the inverse is often not true). I am not arguing in favour of one or the other, I was just trying to provide a potential solution in the event that the GB is short on orders.

It's not really about usability. Users of one can mostly guess what the characters on the keyboard are. The problem really is a cultural one. If one set gets made and orders of the other set is given the option to convert, people who care will lose their minds and refuse to convert their orders.

To GB runners:
If traditional meets MOQ and simplified doesn't, consider asking Zfrontier to buy out the remaining MOQ, or reopen the GB for China and make a post on the Chinese Zfrontier forum to ask for people's support.
Likewise, if simplified meets MOQ and traditional doesn't, might be a good idea ask Thic Thock to buy out the traditional set. I know they are not a vendor for this set, but this should be done before taking any last resort options.

Offline mustardgreens

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #81 on: Wed, 20 January 2021, 13:59:01 »
Quote
If one set gets made and orders of the other set is given the option to convert, people who care will lose their minds and refuse to convert their orders.

And if neither set gets made, then what? I was only referencing this scenario.

Offline jkteoh

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Re: [GB] GMK Shanshui 山水 - GB Live
« Reply #82 on: Wed, 20 January 2021, 14:16:12 »
Quote
Sidenote: Comparing SC/TC and using karaoke as an excuse is just silly. I don't need to read Japanese to be able to sing along to Ayumi Hamasaki.


My point in referencing KTV was merely that many SC users can use and are willing to use TC on occasion (whereas the inverse is often not true). I am not arguing in favour of one or the other, I was just trying to provide a potential solution in the event that the GB is short on orders.

Did not have to present solutions while being flippant and dismissive about someone's culture.

Also, some TC folks can read SC when forced to as much as some SC folks can read TC.

It's perfectly fine to have a preference over aesthetic reasons as I doubt all or even most of the folks that are preordering this are folks that read Chinese, but it'd be great if people weren't so dismissive of the reasoning and explanation behind why it's not as simple as "Oh just force them to use TC/SC it's about the group buy and not the expansion or inclusion of a library of characters."

Y'all have any bloody idea how long I've spent on AliExpress trying to find keycaps that offered actual proper Chinese characters? Sheesh.