Author Topic: Spanish, Portuguese & Italian (South) keycaps (links updated:10/November/2022)  (Read 65495 times)

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Offline depletedvespene

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Re: Spanish, Portuguese & Italian (South) keycaps (links updated: 18/8/2022)
« Reply #150 on: Sat, 20 August 2022, 08:19:00 »
Countries layout were designed by linguistic experts back in the days considering the occurrence of each symbol in standard language corpus... I'm italian and I have used for some years an ES layout for work: it make no sense and it's very confusing. I dream about a simple WoB GMK South set which would fix all our issues, once for all.

Ahem...

https://www.farah.cl/DistribucionesDeTeclado/IberAmEs/index_es.html

Offline depletedvespene

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Re: Spanish, Portuguese & Italian (South) keycaps (links updated: 18/8/2022)
« Reply #151 on: Sat, 20 August 2022, 08:21:39 »
@salgiza

Is this the right spanish layout?

(Attachment Link)

There are two (main) layouts for the Spanish language. "Spanish (Spain)" is the one you pictured, which has some additions for supporting Catalan and Portuguese; "Spanish (Latin America)" is the other one, commonly seen in (surprise, surprise) Spanish-speaking countries in the American continent.

See https://www.farah.cl/Keyboardery/Interactive-Comparator-of-Different-National-Layouts/?left=esES&right=esLA for a direct comparison between both.

Offline depletedvespene

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Re: Spanish, Portuguese & Italian (South) keycaps (links updated: 18/8/2022)
« Reply #152 on: Sat, 20 August 2022, 08:27:06 »
The ~ next to the four is not always present in keyboards, either, as you would get a ¢ in macOS instead. Added fact: I'm old enough to remember that, when I started using Unix/Linux, many years ago, the ~ symbol was not printed next to the 4 in any of the keyboards that I used at the university or at home (and that was something that I had to memorize). I don't know why it became popular to include it in Windows keyboards after that (Linux, the fact that many sites used the ~ in their urls in the early 00s?), but it seems to be losing its status again.

The Spanish (Spain) layout specification was updated in 1991 to add the ~ character (as a dead key, BTW) under AltGr-4. It took years for keyboard manufacturers to catch up, and for a certain Maliciously Stupid company to update its "KEYB ES" driver under MS-DOS.

As for Apple... well... everyone remember the Golden Rule of Apple and Keyboards.

Offline ylothar

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Re: Spanish, Portuguese & Italian (South) keycaps (links updated: 18/8/2022)
« Reply #153 on: Sat, 20 August 2022, 13:07:54 »
Wow @depletedvespene, what an amazing source of information! Thank you!

I'm trying to put together some preliminary information to reconstruct the reasons why some characters / symbols - in the various languages - have been chosen, and in what position.

From what I can understand - after starting to put the puzzle pieces together, starting from https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?t=14577 - the standardization of layouts is now governed by ISO / IEC 9995 (https://www.iso.org/committee/45382/x/catalogue/p/1/u/0/w/0/d/0), which should have had this evolution over time (if I have done the my "homework" correctly):

290506-0

Its latest update appears to be ISO / IEC 9995-12: 2020.

I then went to see the Participating Members of ISO / IEC JTC 1 / SC 35 and:



I therefore believe that to trace the reasons for what has been done we must refer to:

Am I on the right track?
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Offline depletedvespene

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Re: Spanish, Portuguese & Italian (South) keycaps (links updated: 18/8/2022)
« Reply #154 on: Sat, 20 August 2022, 20:48:58 »
Wow @depletedvespene, what an amazing source of information! Thank you!

You're welcome. ;D

I'm trying to put together some preliminary information to reconstruct the reasons why some characters / symbols - in the various languages - have been chosen, and in what position.

From what I can understand - after starting to put the puzzle pieces together, starting from https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?t=14577 - the standardization of layouts is now governed by ISO / IEC 9995 (https://www.iso.org/committee/45382/x/catalogue/p/1/u/0/w/0/d/0), which should have had this evolution over time (if I have done the my "homework" correctly):

………

Am I on the right track?


Yes, but...

Do remember that the ISO/IEC 9995 codified into a standard what was then the "common practice" in keyboard hardware and most of that was standardized in the mid-80s by IBM, thanks to the sheer success of the Enhanced layout.

ISO9995 dictates a few things that national layouts must comply with, but doesn't define any particular national layout; most of those were codified and standardized by IBM itself — the "bigger ones" (Spanish, German, Italian, etc.) at some point during the XT keyboard period, slightly adjusted with the AT keyboard introduction and once more with the Enhanced layout, the "smaller ones" designed and implemented somewhat later on (Czech, Hungarian, Romanian, etc.), and the "special interest ones" being made by Microsoft well into the XXI century (Turkmen, Faroese, etc.).

TO BOOT, national layouts took heavily from preexisting standards for typewriters (codified or de facto), and even then there was competition. For example, TWO main layouts still exist for Spanish ("Spanish (Spain)" and "Spanish (Latin America)"), but in 1982, there were at least five different "Spanish" layouts just within IBM itself (and at least three more by other companies).

In most national layouts, some key assignments surely were inherited from typewriters, some surely were decided with a lot of thought and documentation, some surely were decided on a whim (braces and brackets flipped on the Spanish (Latin America) layout), some with neither (about a third of the modern Canadian layout), some are undoubtledly mistakes that no one cared to correct later on (flipping the | and ¦ characters in the English (UK) layout), and while some were designed with utter dedication by competent people, restricted on what they could do by the hardware and the software of the time, some were created by clueless dimwits that were not really under any significant restrictions (the Azeri (Standard) layout being the most prominent example of this).

I am afraid that for many "odd" or "weird" assignments, specially on the older layouts, we'll never truly know the reason.

Offline ylothar

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Re: Spanish, Portuguese & Italian (South) keycaps (links updated: 18/8/2022)
« Reply #155 on: Sun, 21 August 2022, 01:36:48 »
[...] ISO9995 dictates a few things that national layouts must comply with, but doesn't define any particular national layout; [...]

I have never read - and therefore thought I would - ISO / IEC 9995 documentation: so are you telling me that I will surely not find the answer to my questions there?

[...] most of those were codified and standardized by IBM itself [...]

Do you know of any IBM sources that I can consult?

[...] In most national layouts, some key assignments surely were inherited from typewriters [...]

Here in Itay (precisely in Milan) there is "Typewriter Museum" (Museo della macchina da scrivere): it may be that by investigating there I can find some confirmation ...

[...] I am afraid that for many "odd" or "weird" assignments, specially on the older layouts, we'll never truly know the reason. [...]

So do you think that trying to contact UNI or UNE is just a waste of time? Or do you think there is hope of having some more information?
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Offline salgiza

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Re: Spanish, Portuguese & Italian (South) keycaps (links updated: 18/8/2022)
« Reply #156 on: Sun, 21 August 2022, 07:10:56 »
Wow! I felt like a giant +1 in keyboard knowledge popped up of my head while reading this thread!

And I’m incredibly happy to know the logic behind the symbol next to the 6 that I can’t type from my phone right now, and the ~ in the 4 key! (That also brought memories of memorising alt+126 back in the day, and now it all makes sense).

@depletedvespene, do you think that there is someone that knows more about keyboard layouts than you? Because I highly doubt it!  :)
« Last Edit: Sun, 21 August 2022, 08:26:45 by salgiza »

Offline depletedvespene

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Re: Spanish, Portuguese & Italian (South) keycaps (links updated: 18/8/2022)
« Reply #157 on: Sun, 21 August 2022, 09:04:30 »
[...] ISO9995 dictates a few things that national layouts must comply with, but doesn't define any particular national layout; [...]

I have never read - and therefore thought I would - ISO / IEC 9995 documentation: so are you telling me that I will surely not find the answer to my questions there?

I think you won't, but I'd be happy to be wrong. If nothing else, the avenue should be pursued, at least to know for certain that it IS a dead end.



[...] most of those were codified and standardized by IBM itself [...]

Do you know of any IBM sources that I can consult?

The best I have from (public-facing information published by) IBM is its old "globalization" site, which has copies of the national layouts' specifications as they were supported in the late '90s to early 2000s. See https://web.archive.org/web/20181103130511/http://www-01.ibm.com/software/globalization/topics/keyboards/registry_index.html — I took my sweet time to copy ALL those PDFs back when they were still available on their FTP site.

I also have a few older booklets with "keyboard charts" for MS-DOS; additionaly, some of IBM's mainframe manuals have keyboard charts. And that's about all that I've been able to dig up during those years.

Now, if I had access to some IBM insider that would happen to be a document archivist... one can only dream.




[...] In most national layouts, some key assignments surely were inherited from typewriters [...]

Here in Itay (precisely in Milan) there is "Typewriter Museum" (Museo della macchina da scrivere): it may be that by investigating there I can find some confirmation ...

[...] I am afraid that for many "odd" or "weird" assignments, specially on the older layouts, we'll never truly know the reason. [...]

So do you think that trying to contact UNI or UNE is just a waste of time? Or do you think there is hope of having some more information?

Again, "dead end" is better than "unexplored possibility".

Where it pertains to some national layouts (es-ES, es-LA, it-141 and it-142, etcetera), I truly want to know what the hell went on with some decisions.

Offline depletedvespene

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Re: Spanish, Portuguese & Italian (South) keycaps (links updated: 18/8/2022)
« Reply #158 on: Sun, 21 August 2022, 09:06:12 »
@depletedvespene, do you think that there is someone that knows more about keyboard layouts than you? Because I highly doubt it!  :)

I'd be delighted to discover that there is someone who knows more in this regard than me. I have too many unanswered questions.

Offline ylothar

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Re: Spanish, Portuguese & Italian (South) keycaps (links updated: 18/8/2022)
« Reply #159 on: Sun, 21 August 2022, 09:06:41 »
Because I highly doubt it!  :)

Me too  ;D

@depletedvespene

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Offline ylothar

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Re: Spanish, Portuguese & Italian (South) keycaps (links updated: 18/8/2022)
« Reply #160 on: Sun, 21 August 2022, 09:26:09 »
I think you won't, but I'd be happy to be wrong. If nothing else, the avenue should be pursued, at least to know for certain that it IS a dead end.

And then it's time to throw myself into reading ...

The best I have from (public-facing information published by) IBM is its old "globalization" site, which has copies of the national layouts' specifications as they were supported in the late '90s to early 2000s. See https://web.archive.org/web/20181103130511/http://www-01.ibm.com/software/globalization/topics/keyboards/registry_index.html — I took my sweet time to copy ALL those PDFs back when they were still available on their FTP site.

Apparently the FTP server is still active, I was able to download the PDFs.

Where it pertains to some national layouts (es-ES, es-LA, it-141 and it-142, etcetera), I truly want to know what the hell went on with some decisions.

I'm going to try asking for information at "Museo della macchina da scrivere" (https://www.museodellamacchinadascrivere.org/).
I have no idea what can come out of it but trying does not harm: in any case being easily reachable from where I live in the worst case scenario I will go there and if there are no problems I will take some pictures.
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Offline ale210

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Re: Spanish, Portuguese & Italian (South) keycaps (links updated: 18/8/2022)
« Reply #161 on: Thu, 01 September 2022, 03:04:35 »
Open this thread, no new keycaps, close and cry.
Repeat every day.

Offline salgiza

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Re: Spanish, Portuguese & Italian (South) keycaps (links updated: 18/8/2022)
« Reply #162 on: Thu, 01 September 2022, 07:56:27 »
Open this thread, no new keycaps, close and cry.
Repeat every day.

Lol! This year has been much more quieter than the 2021, and not just for South kits: at the end of last year you could see that GBs were having a harder time to reach the MOQ (and some even failed), while at the beginning of 2021 it seemed like reaching the MOQ was a given for most GBs. The fact that many people (myself included) are still waiting for one or more GBs from last year (or even 2020) probably does not help.

To be fair, I'm much more happy of the fact that there are many more in-stock options than there were a year ago. Heck, two years ago if you wanted to enter the hobby and use an ISO-ES keyboard (as was my case), AliExpress sets (and a single Glorious set) were basically the only available options...

Offline lonewolf4

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Re: Spanish, Portuguese & Italian (South) keycaps (links updated: 18/8/2022)
« Reply #163 on: Thu, 01 September 2022, 16:10:31 »
Found this beautiful set, still in IC and I have asked for PT and ES support, let's see id it is supported https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=117926.0

Offline 1pctipaday

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Re: Spanish, Portuguese & Italian (South) keycaps (links updated: 18/8/2022)
« Reply #164 on: Thu, 01 September 2022, 23:45:38 »
Unfortunately, they're not including PT and/or ES support. For sure. It's very clear if you follow their Discord server. More than once I asked for the same for other sets, and the answer is always the same: there are not enough people buying South add-ons.


Found this beautiful set, still in IC and I have asked for PT and ES support, let's see id it is supported https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=117926.0
« Last Edit: Fri, 02 September 2022, 04:21:56 by 1pctipaday »

Offline salgiza

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Re: Spanish, Portuguese & Italian (South) keycaps (links updated: 2/Sept/2022)
« Reply #165 on: Fri, 02 September 2022, 08:04:52 »
I've added this two to the list of "ñ" keycaps, don't know if the crazy layout will also be useful to IT/BR/PT users: MVKB Classic and CreateKeebs Stamp.

Thanks to @1pctipaday for the tip!

P.S. Regarding the PBTfans Pyga set, yeah, from what I've read in Blip's discord as well, KBDfans seems to be totally against the idea of adding South kits for their double shot sets. Which totally sucks, because they have released some very nice sets. We'll see if they change their minds at some point :(

Offline lonewolf4

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Re: Spanish, Portuguese & Italian (South) keycaps (links updated: 2/Sept/2022)
« Reply #166 on: Fri, 02 September 2022, 11:37:03 »
P.S. Regarding the PBTfans Pyga set, yeah, from what I've read in Blip's discord as well, KBDfans seems to be totally against the idea of adding South kits for their double shot sets. Which totally sucks, because they have released some very nice sets. We'll see if they change their minds at some point :(

Sucks  :( not buying then

Offline ale210

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Re: Spanish, Portuguese & Italian (South) keycaps (links updated: 2/Sept/2022)
« Reply #167 on: Sat, 03 September 2022, 04:44:09 »
I'm one step for buying ISO-UK keycaps... the market for us it's frustrating.

It's curious, manufactures like Domikey, if you want iso-uk, you need the UK extra, wich has big enter, but the 1,25U shift is not included, you have to buy the "mod plus" for one ****ing key. However, include south support, "no way".

@salgiza
add to the thread this (awful) set:
https://es.aliexpress.com/item/1005004205185499.html
 

PD:
PBTFans Spark it's amazing.

Offline salgiza

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Re: Spanish, Portuguese & Italian (South) keycaps (links updated: 20/Sept/2022)
« Reply #168 on: Tue, 20 September 2022, 04:31:20 »
Added the Tai Hao Pine Green set, available both in ISO-ES and ISO-IT.

Thanks to @Arwer and @1pctipaday, that tipped me on this one!
« Last Edit: Sat, 01 October 2022, 16:06:44 by salgiza »

Offline salgiza

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Re: Spanish, Portuguese & Italian (South) keycaps (links updated: 27/Sept/2022)
« Reply #169 on: Tue, 27 September 2022, 04:17:05 »
Added a link to DSA Star Wars Galactic Empire in the list of unusual keycaps.

It's not 100% random symbols, but the labels are weird enough that you really can use it as such (also: the empire had their own language but the mandalorians use latin letters? Mmm....)

P.S. Thanks to @Arwer for the tip.

Offline salgiza

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@Arwer sent me a message in Discord, mentioning that they still have units of the KAT CyberSpace South kit in the Kono store. As it's been a while since the GB ended, I guess that they ordered lots of extras, so I've added a link to it in the list, at least until they run out of stock

I've also added a couple of comments to the GPBT/Keychron and Blip sets, as they might be out of stock in the linked stores, but the first can be found in many other webshops, and the Blip sets should get stock back at some point (at least in the Novelkeys webshop).
« Last Edit: Mon, 03 October 2022, 04:11:06 by salgiza »

Offline salgiza

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Added a link to the Denshi Electronic Spanish shop. They seem to sell mostly imported AliExpress sets, but they do have a few designs that I had not seen before, so they are worth checking out if you are looking for ISO-ES keycaps.

Thanks to @1pctipaday for the tip!

Offline salgiza

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I've added the GB for MW Pono Light to the list of ñ keycaps. It's an incomplete set that includes the ñ and ç keys, for those interested.

Thanks to @Nascent for the tip!

Offline salgiza

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Added links to the following new keychron sets (now also available in PT, in addition to IT & ES!)

Keychron PBT Retro (TKL, 60% & 100%) (ES/IT/PT)
Keychron PBT Carbon (TKL, 60% & 100%) (ES/IT/PT)
Keychron PBT Blue (TKL, 60% & 100%) (ES/IT/PT)
Keychron PBT Iceberg (TKL, 60% & 100%) (ES/IT/PT)


Note: I've added the formats that they support to the description, as Keychron really adjusts the keys available, and these sets would be missing the right shift for 75% keyboards, for example.

Offline salgiza

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Added 21KB Classic Retro (ES & IT) to the list! Thanks to @1pctipaday for the link!

It's a preorder and not a GB, so I've added it to the in-stock list, we'll see when it's actually released.

Offline Nascent

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Added 21KB Classic Retro (ES & IT) to the list! Thanks to @1pctipaday for the link!

It's a preorder and not a GB, so I've added it to the in-stock list, we'll see when it's actually released.

If you don't want custom colors for the legends, the classic retro beige sets are in stock

https://21kb.com/products/21kb-spanish-classic-retro-beige-keycap-set

You can never have too many beige sets
« Last Edit: Fri, 28 October 2022, 16:28:10 by Nascent »

Offline salgiza

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If you don't want custom colors for the legends, the classic retro beige sets are in stock

https://21kb.com/products/21kb-spanish-classic-retro-beige-keycap-set

You can never have too many beige sets

Added to the list, thanks a lot!

I've created a small section for 21KB, because I've also noticed that you can mix and match sets (e.g., if you want runic or hiragana sublegends, you can buy the ES/IT set + the one for which you want the sublegends).

Offline salgiza

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Re: Spanish, Portuguese & Italian (South) keycaps (links updated: 8/November/2022)
« Reply #177 on: Tue, 08 November 2022, 05:29:13 »
I've added a new section "custom/printed" with this two sites: WASD Keyboards & Krome Keycaps. If you know of any others, please let me know and I'll add them to the list.

Also, I don't know how long the stock will last, but MyKeyboard has extras of KAT Hyperfuse, including the South kit.

Offline salgiza

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Re: Spanish, Portuguese & Italian (South) keycaps (links updated:10/November/2022)
« Reply #178 on: Thu, 10 November 2022, 05:03:10 »
I've just added the new Eloquent Clicks Cherry Retro Set (ES) to the list. EC has contacted a keycap manufacturer to create this set with ES/FR & DE support and, hopefully, if there is demand, PT & IT should also be considered.

Offline Nascent

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Re: Spanish, Portuguese & Italian (South) keycaps (links updated:10/November/2022)
« Reply #179 on: Tue, 22 November 2022, 10:45:00 »
Shipping of epbt Scandi by keygem has begun and they have announced on discord that extras will be available this evening (22/11/2022)