MX to Alps adaptor

[nubbinator]

Since it seems like Alps sets are stupid hard to get made, I decided to see if it would be possible to make some MX to Alps converters and, if viable, produce them affordably.  Since Alps stabilizer wire can fit into Costar stabilizers, they should theoretically let you use Costar stabs on MX caps and use MX caps on Alps switches.  The main issue is that you'll want to use lower profile caps.

To see if it's even viable, I've gone ahead and ordered several models from Shapeways in a variety of materials to see if any of them work better as a master than others.







If that works out, I plan getting another model made up that's more suitable for molding and casting (sorry for the tiny pic):






Alps stems are something I've been thing about for a while now since they also seem like the perfect stepping point for a modular stem system.  If you do Alps stems, you could also make snap on MX and Topre stems, making it cheaper and easier to produce a cap or caps that work on multiple platforms.  There aren't a ton of Alps caps out there, so it's less important for cap sets and more of an interesting project for novelty caps.

[bueller]

I would definitely be keen to buy a hundred of these if they make it to mass production, always wanted to do a 60% complicated white board but lack of caps is a major downer for me.

[CommonCurt]

Nice. Can't wait to see how these turn out.

[Smasher816]

Sign me up. I would love to swap these mx blues out with some clicky style alps in my infinity. At the meetups I found I like alps a lot better but the lack of keycaps was kind of off putting.

[nubbinator]

Still waiting on the adapters to come from shapeways so I can test fitment, but I rethought my sprueing and layout I originally had for the mold and redid it in a way that I think will generally work better.  Now to get the prototypes to make sure they work and see what material I'll need to use for the master.

[bueller]

Still waiting on the adapters to come from shapeways so I can test fitment, but I rethought my sprueing and layout I originally had for the mold and redid it in a way that I think will generally work better.  Now to get the prototypes to make sure they work and see what material I'll need to use for the master.

Show Image

Looks great man!Í

[nubbinator]

Oh, and forgot to add, I added some beveling on the Alps side.

[Badwrench]

[FrostyToast]

I wonder how the increased height will play out.
SA with these? Sounds like torture.

[bueller]

I wonder how the increased height will play out.
SA with these? Sounds like torture.

Good thing GMK caps are already lower profile

[CommonCurt]

I wonder how the increased height will play out.

The added keycap height was the the first thing I thought about.

It will be interesting to see how it turns out.

[Hak Foo]

You might want to compare notes with MrInterface on Deskthority-- he's been doing a lot of this work already and has actually gotten some adapters produced.

[nubbinator]

I forgot he was doing those.  I may have to hit him up and compare notes.

With that out of the way, I do want to discuss some of the differences and why I did it differently.  I did mine a little different for a couple of reasons.  I added the disc in between the two parts to make it easier to remove them.  Having the two mounts butted up against each other makes it potentially problematic with some of the tighter stems like DSA.  The disc gives a little something extra to grip onto.  I also added a bevel to make it easier to insert the Alps side. 

Once I'm sure they work, I'm going to put it up on Shapeways so that people can either print them or cast them.  I plan on casting mine.  If I'm certain it works well, I'll entertain the possibility of getting a mold made and getting it done in POM.  I'd have to have enough people interested to offset the cost though.

[Melvang]

I remember seeing someone at DT doing this a while ago and they said while it did work, it raised the caps a long ways and stab wires proved problematic.

That being said, I do wish you the best of luck in this endeavor.

[nubbinator]

If there's a problem with the stabs, it's easy to make a similar MX to MX adaptor for the stabilizers.

[MOZ]

Looking good nubs. Following keenly!

[nubbinator]

I got my prototypes today.  The Alps side fits perfectly in Detail and Ultra Detail Plastic.  It's nice and snug.  It's not so great with other materials, so I'll be sticking with those two for prototypes.  I'll try to keep it as cheap as possible.  The disc is also perfect for pulling the stem.  It makes it much easier to remove than one without a spacer.

That said, the MX side is a hair too narrow.  It looks like I erred too far on the side of caution.   I'll thicken up the MX side and get another prototype made.  Once I do that, and get the MX to MX adaptors made for the stabilized keys, I'll get the models up on Shapeways for people to use.  Now that I know how it is, I'll probably get my MCS prototypes made up at the same.

[faceyourfaces]

I got my prototypes today.  The Alps side fits perfectly in Detail and Ultra Detail Plastic.  It's nice and snug.  It's not so great with other materials, so I'll be sticking with those two for prototypes.  I'll try to keep it as cheap as possible.  The disc is also perfect for pulling the stem.  It makes it much easier to remove than one without a spacer.

That said, the MX side is a hair too narrow.  It looks like I erred too far on the side of caution.   I'll thicken up the MX side and get another prototype made.  Once I do that, and get the MX to MX adaptors made for the stabilized keys, I'll get the models up on Shapeways for people to use.  Now that I know how it is, I'll probably get my MCS prototypes made up at the same.

Exciting! 

[Touch_It]

Hmm,  I might have to get some.  I have multiple alps boards.  Ideally I want to throw blue alps into a dell a dell at101w.

[nubbinator]

Just for ****s and giggles, I decided to see how much it would cost to make enough for an Infiniti keyboard in one go, excluding the stabilizer extenders.  It looks like it will be around $25 + shipping for a set of 72.  As such, I'm giving up the mold idea.  While it would likely be a little cheaper for someone who wanted to make enough for a couple of keyboards, it would be much more time intensive.

Once I confirm that the stabilizer extender dimensions are right, I'll go ahead and buy myself a set and offer them on Shapeways in all the detail acrylics since the strong and flexible plastics and metal plastics don't have good enough fidelity.  And for full disclosure, I'm going to tack on $0.50-1 (Shapeways also has an additional 3.5% fee) for the full set just to offset my prototyping costs a little. 

[Hak Foo]

Suggestion:  Packages in sizes to fit common keyboards-- packages of, say, 25, 75, 90 and 110-- for numpad, 60%, TKL, and full-size, with generous overcount for the ones people break or to fit into extra caps.

[Badwrench]

How much taller is this making the cap sit?  Does it still feel pretty stable? 

[nubbinator]

It looks like it adds ~4.5-5mm (~0.2") to the height.  The caps still feel stable to me.  They're a little less so due to the added height, but not at all unpleasant or to the point where you really notice the difference.  It's still pretty subtle.

[whentheclouds]

this is super cool. you didn't mention Cherry stabs so i assume they won't be compatible?

[nubbinator]

this is super cool. you didn't mention Cherry stabs so i assume they won't be compatible?

These are straight Alps to MX adaptors, not the stabilizers.  I'm getting MX to MX and Costar style extended stabilizers printed to see how they work and if I need to make any size changes.  The MX to MX should be Cherry stab compatible.

[whentheclouds]

right, important distinction. keeping a close eye on this

[nubbinator]

Sppn

 


Just waiting on the parts from my other project to finish printing.  Hopefully the MX stem is right this time.  If it is, I'll get models up for 80, 100, and 120 with the appropriate number of MX to MX extenders in both types.  It really shouldn't add much to the price to run both types of extenders and it's cheaper than having to buy each one separately.

And I forgot I haven't uploaded pics of the extenders yet.

[engicoder]

There was a similar thread on Deskthority with some pictures of a board with adapters on for those interested.

http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/cherry-to-alps-adapters-t4934.html

[nubbinator]

They arrived today.  The Alps stem is still perfect, but the male MX stem is a little too loose.  The female stem is nice and tight, but I'll have to widen the male stem again.  I was going small and steady, but I'm going to have to reprint it in two more sizes to see if I get it nice and snug.

Other good news, the MX to MX adaptor is the perfect height and appears to be working perfectly.

The other bad news is that the Costar style stabilizer is too brittle to use.  As such, you'll need Costar inserts if you plan on doing Costar stabilizers, you won't be able to use a single solid piece.

[engicoder]

Thanks for the update. I think your approach is a good one and will ensure a perfect fit. I will pick up a set of these to play with once you finalize everything.

[nubbinator]

I widened the MX cruciforms to two different sizes so I can test them both out.  Hopefully one of them works.  I'll know in a week or so.  Not that you can tell the changes, but updated pics are in my MCS thread.

[zombimuncha]

The other bad news is that the Costar style stabilizer is too brittle to use.  As such, you'll need Costar inserts if you plan on doing Costar stabilizers, you won't be able to use a single solid piece.

Does this mean no stabilized MX caps on Alps switches? [edit: with Alps stabilizers, I mean]
Even assuming Matias' magical mystery balance bars are a real thing?

[nubbinator]

No, it means you'll use Cherry stabilizers with the extensions or the extensions with Costar stabilizer inserts.  There won't be a solid one piece Costar style insert.

[zombimuncha]

No, it means you'll use Cherry stabilizers with the extensions or the extensions with Costar stabilizer inserts.  There won't be a solid one piece Costar style insert.

I haz confuze. Is there a way to install Cherry stabs on a keyboard that already has Alps stabs?

[nubbinator]

This is to use MX caps on Alps keyboards (like the Infinity).  If it already has Alps stabilizers, you can use the insert from the Alps caps in the MX extensions. 

[zombimuncha]

the rectangular Alps insert fits into the cruciform MX-MX extension/adaptor? Spooky!

[nubbinator]

Depends on which ones you're talking about.  There are closed stabilizers similar to Costar, those should fit no problem.  I forgot about the open ones, but they should work as well with a simple edit or by including a second extension made for them.

[zombimuncha]

ok cool. but we still need the magical matias balance bars, right? because the insert mounts are in different positions on the keycap, MX vs Alps.

[nubbinator]

Maybe, but the focus of this has never really been making something that will work with all old Alps boards since there are so many variations in Alps board.  It's more to make it so you can use MX caps with contemporary Alps stuff.

[zombimuncha]

AFAIK most contemporary Alps boards use Alps stabs, except on the spacebar (Matias / KBParadise). I guess the Infinity is the exception here.

[jacobolus]

zombimuncha: you’re getting confused. The part nubbinator was trying to print is only usable on the Infinity, old Chicony boards from the 90s, possibly Ducky 1087XM (I can’t find a good picture of the stabilizers), and a small handful of other boards. It’s not relevant for Matias, KBParadise, or the great majority of old Alps boards.

[zombimuncha]

Hi Jacobolus, I appreciate your skepticism regarding the balance bars Matias has mentioned, and I note that you've been in the mechanical keyboard game much longer than I, and have vastly more knowledge and experience. I however prefer to remain optimistic, after all, at the risk of hijacking the thread (sorry!) this is Matias saying things like:

If you add a 2u Backspace and 2.75u Shift, then these would fit pretty much all ALPS keyboards.  (I can supply stab wires.)

This is a man with a professional reputation to uphold. I don't think he'd be saying these kinds of things if he didn't have an honest expectation of being able to supply the aforementioned balance bars.

Furthermore, if Matias' balance bars and Nubbinators adaptors both turn into real usable products it could open up a whole new avenue of custom keycaps for Alps keyboards (bigass enter notwithstanding!) Is it a long shot? Maybe. But if it all comes together it could be extremely cool! GMK on Orange Alps could be amazing, even if it is "on stilts".

[jacobolus]

Hi Jacobolus, I appreciate your skepticism regarding the balance bars Matias has mentioned,

Huh? We’re talking about nubbinator’s 3d-printed insert, not Matias’s stabilizer wires.

[zombimuncha]

Hi Jacobolus, I appreciate your skepticism regarding the balance bars Matias has mentioned,

Huh? We�re talking about nubbinator�s 3d-printed insert, not Matias�s stabilizer wires.

Right. I'm just pointing out that altho on their own the inserts can only be used on the keyboards you mentioned, if used together with the soecial stabilizer wires they could potentially be used on all Alps keyboards.

[jacobolus]

Right. I'm just pointing out that altho on their own the inserts can only be used on the keyboards you mentioned, if used together with the soecial stabilizer wires they could potentially be used on all Alps keyboards.

I think Matias has brand new specially-made keycap inserts to get his new stabilizers working with keycaps with MX-shaped stab insert mounts. Whenever he finally mails me some samples I can tell you for sure. :-)

[nubbinator]

Good news.  I received them today from Shapeways and they are good to go.  I will likely be getting them up for order tonight. 

Just a little warning, the MX stem is tight, like tighter than a Clear tight.  If you're worried about them, you can scrape them down a little with a blade.  I'm probably going to make them 0.02mm thinner, but those are some small tolerances.  With my sizes I've tried, 0.1mm smaller is too loose and 0.1mm bigger won't fit at all. 0.02-0.4mm thinner may make it less tight, but I'm afraid to go any smaller than 0.02mm thinner since it may make things too loose.

[engicoder]

Good news.  I received them today from Shapeways and they are good to go.  I will likely be getting them up for order tonight. 

Just a little warning, the MX stem is tight, like tighter than a Clear tight.  If you're worried about them, you can scrape them down a little with a blade.  I'm probably going to make them 0.02mm thinner, but those are some small tolerances.  With my sizes I've tried, 0.1mm smaller is too loose and 0.1mm bigger won't fit at all. 0.02-0.4mm thinner may make it less tight, but I'm afraid to go any smaller than 0.02mm thinner since it may make things too loose.

I prefer tight

[nubbinator]

Okay.  I modified the stem and made it 0.02mm thinner.  That's the smallest change I felt comfortable making.  I also uploaded them to Shapeways in various size packs.  I'm willing to make the slightly cheaper detail plastic available if someone wants to try it, but I cannot guarantee that it will work.

65 stems + 4 stabilized keys

70 stems + 5 stabilzed keys

80 stems + 6 stabilzed keys

120 stems + 6 stabilzed keys

Hopefully the links work.

And before anyone asks, yes, I added a little to the cost to try and help cover my R&D costs.  It's $1-1.90, depending on the model.  Once my costs are recouped, I plan on making them at cost.

[Badwrench]

Okay.  I modified the stem and made it 0.02mm thinner.  That's the smallest change I felt comfortable making.  I also uploaded them to Shapeways in various size packs.  I'm willing to make the slightly cheaper detail plastic available if someone wants to try it, but I cannot guarantee that it will work.

65 stems + 4 stabilized keys

70 stems + 5 stabilzed keys

80 stems + 6 stabilzed keys

120 stems + 6 stabilzed keys

Hopefully the links work.

And before anyone asks, yes, I added a little to the cost to try and help cover my R&D costs.  It's $1-1.90, depending on the model.  Once my costs are recouped, I plan on making them at cost.

Awesome!  Looking forward to giving these a run.   

[engicoder]

Back when I made some angled adapters, I found it cheaper if I linked all the parts with a very thin link, so that it was considered a single part. Then they could be cut apart on arrival. I'm not sure if this is still valid since they changed their pricing model. Have you considered this?