[IC] LCARS keyboard set - GB LIVE!!!

[LechnerDE]

For ISO you need these 3 keys plus the enter key:



The left shift key is 1.25

The "</>" key is 1.00 (same profile as zxcv)

The "#/'" key is 1.00 (same profile as asdf)


Signature Plastics has all these legends and has done many ISO kits for Geekhack before, so it shouldn't be a problem at all

[norbauer]

For ISO you need these 3 keys plus the enter key:

Show Image

The left shift key is 1.25

The "</>" key is 1.00 (same profile as zxcv)

The "#/'" key is 1.00 (same profile as asdf)


Signature Plastics has all these legends and has done many ISO kits for Geekhack before, so it shouldn't be a problem at all :)

Awesome. Thanks! I'll have the final mock-ups, including the ISO keys, very soon!

[norbauer]

Hey everybody. I added a promo graphic to my signature linking to this thread. Please feel free to steal it and add it to yours! If this is going to happen, we've got to spread the word.

All you have to add to your sig is the following BBCode:

Code: [Select]

[url=http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48839.0][img width=394 height=80]https://e2ij2g.dm2302.livefilestore.com/y2pRH67ha3l3S3xmkgfQnHnqhaAEOMpMChfJWsvbcCTBYsFkP9TiorRQeLmfvGxISxwZ11mhAO1ERQf4w3puYvEX3F_ZOcuCZMeAYsT4Kds6C4/galaxyclasspromo.gif?psid=1[/img][/url]


[vierax]

For ISO you need these 3 keys plus the enter key:

Show Image

The left shift key is 1.25

The "</>" key is 1.00 (same profile as zxcv)

The "#/'" key is 1.00 (same profile as asdf)


Signature Plastics has all these legends and has done many ISO kits for Geekhack before, so it shouldn't be a problem at all :)

It's the extra keys for qwertZ, not for qwertY :   the ANSI "|\" key is replaced by a 1unit (instead of 1.5u ), J-Shape return, left shift reduced to 1.25u to add an extra key.
This extra ISO key seems to be "<>" in ISO us-qwerty, like qwertz. here is what 7bit did in Round4

[regack]

So without reading the whole thread... I can't quite follow what might be available... I see some images here and there, but all of the stuff in the poll results have no images.  Can MOZ update the first post with what's been decided so far?

[MOZ]

Added final design to OP.

[norbauer]

So without reading the whole thread... I can't quite follow what might be available... I see some images here and there, but all of the stuff in the poll results have no images.  Can MOZ update the first post with what's been decided so far?

As Moz mentioned, we updated the OP with the latest info. Also, I created a notification list for anybody wants to sign up to get an email when the Massdrop goes live without following very little detail of the thread.

[norbauer]

For ISO you need these 3 keys plus the enter key:

Show Image

The left shift key is 1.25

The "</>" key is 1.00 (same profile as zxcv)

The "#/'" key is 1.00 (same profile as asdf)


Signature Plastics has all these legends and has done many ISO kits for Geekhack before, so it shouldn't be a problem at all :)

Do you think this will work? I know it doesn't cover all the symbols any ISO-layout keyboard of various languages may place in those positions, but it at least provides the positions and something semi-meaningful for the legend. "PE" is just a shortened "Pattern Enhance," which we use for right-shift.

[LechnerDE]

Legendwise this is perfectly fine.

For me at least it actually doesn't matter what legends are on the extra keys. It's all about giving the set it's intended look.

Therefore in my opinion the left shift key should be the same purple as the ANSI left shift key and the 2 alpha keys should be the same color (light blue) as the ANSI alphas. The enter key matches perfectly

[norbauer]

Legendwise this is perfectly fine.

For me at least it actually doesn't matter what legends are on the extra keys. It's all about giving the set it's intended look.

Therefore in my opinion the left shift key should be the same purple as the ANSI left shift key and the 2 alpha keys should be the same color (light blue) as the ANSI alphas. The enter key matches perfectly

Oh right! Of course. Sorry. I don't know how I neglected the color scheme issue. How about something like this?

[norbauer]

Legendwise this is perfectly fine.

For me at least it actually doesn't matter what legends are on the extra keys. It's all about giving the set it's intended look.

Therefore in my opinion the left shift key should be the same purple as the ANSI left shift key and the 2 alpha keys should be the same color (light blue) as the ANSI alphas. The enter key matches perfectly

Actually, I guess this makes more sense...

[LechnerDE]

Yeah, this is how it was done with the Klaxon set, but it looked odd in person.

For some reason it looks strange when the Mod colors "spill over" to the Alphas. In my opinion a 2,25x ANSI left shift key can't be replaced by a 1,25x ISO shift key plus a 1x Alpha. Same goes for the Enter key.

Maybe it's just me, but I think all Alphas should have the same color. Looks cleaner

[MOZ]

I agree with lechner

[LechnerDE]

I agree with lechner

Thanks!

I guess this is settled then 

[regack]

Added final design to OP.

Thanks MOZ!

[norbauer]

I agree with lechner

So you guys are saying you'd rather I did the "#" and "|\" keys in the light-blue color? Totally fine with me. Just wanted to make sure I am understanding correctly.

[vierax]

What the Frell !? Am I replying for nothing ? Your ISO set is so wrong : if you want to do what it looks like a UK set to me, do it properly with all its differences (I gave you a link from Round 4). In this state, legends are totally messed up between US and UK layout and nobody will buy this.

(sorry : bad sleep, bad mood)

[norbauer]

What the Frell !? Am I replying for nothing ? Your ISO set is so wrong : if you want to do what it looks like a UK set to me, do it properly with all its differences (I gave you a link from Round 4). In this state, legends are totally messed up between US and UK layout and nobody will buy this.

(sorry : bad sleep, bad mood)

The idea is just to have the appropriately sized keys to fit on an ISO board. There is no way we can cost-effectively provide legends that cover all the possible ISO language permutations. Turkish, German, Spanish, Danish, etc: they all have different legend combinations (mostly symbols and language-specific letters) in different positions. Trying to cover these variations becomes a slippery slope and suddenly you're talking about an enormous set of mods (how do you know where to stop? We do French but not Finish? And based on what?), each one coming with several keys each buyer won't be able to use, and a mods set that becomes so expensive nobody will buy it.

We are simply taking the bumblebee approach. It is admittedly a compromise. But that to me is its advantage.

I can add the tilde over the equals sign if folks think it would be helpful—or make the two light-blue symbols keys blank. But as you rightly point out, we're already breaking the legends convention for most of the other symbols anyway, so it hardly seems like it matters.

[vierax]

What !? I don't talk about a plenty of European language sets as 7b does but about the choice of a us-qwerty layout in ISO set or a uk-qwerty set. What Bumblebee proposed is a "thing" which doesn't fit in both case : It's clearly the worst choice ever. Proposing a full UK set and an extra US ISO key (<> 1unit) of course increases the price but with a real attractive set the difference is absorbed by quantity.  Moreover I don't understand why in almost all GB which are Commando profile or dsa it lacks the keys for colemak and us-dvorak layout : Since the alpha rows are the same you just need to add 6 keys for dvorak and only the two deepdished for colemak. 7b uses the classic SA profile rows and need a lot of extra keys

Star Trek fans are nerdy, as a lot of SF fans, so adding ISO UK and US, colemak and dvorak is a really low cost bonus and also means a certain care of universality (in the English spoken world at least… even if I forgot to mention Irish layout )

[norbauer]

What the Frell !? Am I replying for nothing ? Your ISO set is so wrong [snip] legends are totally messed up between US and UK layout and nobody will buy this.

What !? I don't talk about a plenty of European language sets as 7b does but about the choice of a us-qwerty layout in ISO set or a uk-qwerty set. What Bumblebee proposed is a "thing" which doesn't fit in both case : It's clearly the worst choice ever.

I'm not a Massdrop fan since the Ergodox and this 15% tip is not even going to a kb enthusiast vendor. I don't regret to be broke at this time and I hope this GB will have a Round2.

No horse in the race. Please see item #2 of the GB rules.

[norbauer]

Yeah, this is how it was done with the Klaxon set, but it looked odd in person.

For some reason it looks strange when the Mod colors "spill over" to the Alphas. In my opinion a 2,25x ANSI left shift key can't be replaced by a 1,25x ISO shift key plus a 1x Alpha. Same goes for the Enter key.

Maybe it's just me, but I think all Alphas should have the same color. Looks cleaner

I agree with lechner

OK. Latest version.



Moz and Lechner: you guys like? Happy to reconfigure in any way that suits you.

[MOZ]

I would suggest also adding a </> key in the light blue color. That should wrap it up.

[vierax]

I would suggest also adding a </> key in the light blue color. That should wrap it up.

Don't suggest that MOZ. It gives me some matter and it's wrong for you.

I'm not a Massdrop fan since the Ergodox and this 15% tip is not even going to a kb enthusiast vendor. I don't regret to be broke at this time and I hope this GB will have a Round2.

No horse in the race. Please see item #2 of the GB rules.

I didn't mess up this thread, don't  you realise that I want(ed) to help !? I promise to not bother you and not to spend some time to try to convince narrow-minded people anymore.
Moreover it's not a GB but an IC thread and I said that I'll go for a Round 2 so I'm concerned as the success of the first round is determinant for a second.
Comment peut-on être aussi… je n'ai pas de mots pour ça.

I wish you luck, people.

[LechnerDE]

OK. Latest version.

Moz and Lechner: you guys like? Happy to reconfigure in any way that suits you.

I really like it 

Concerning the legend discussion:

There are too many ISO variations out there to make everybody happy. So just take the one that you like and SP has available. I mean we are talking about differences with tertiary legends here...

Personally, I couldn't care less what legends are on it as long as there is anything on it. After all half of all the keys are wrong for me (especially numrow symbols), but since I don't have to look at my keyboard while typing it doesn't matter.

For me it's all about the looks:

Nothing looks odder than a keyboard full of legend keys and a couple of blank keys mixed in. The Bumblebee Set had blank ISO enter keys, which killed it for me.

[codyeatworld]

I'll contact cody.

Cool. If he is willing to let us use his code and it's written in ASP, PHP, or Rails, I can provide hosting and probably customize the code for our purposes if necessary.

Sorry I never responded MOZ. The past month or two has been busy for me.
My google chat is really messed up, i dont even sign on anymore. Skype is better for chatting with me.


Shopify could work but there would be a few drawbacks.
I've been working on group buy software that will be open sourced later on. (Rails) I'll be setting up some threads about it when its ready.
Thanks for mentioning me tho

It's also pretty awesome to see MassDrop step in here and I'm looking forward to them running this! I just got a vape from them
This set looks awesome. I love the legends.

[MOZ]

No problem cody, I figured you were busy, so didn't pursue aggressively. You work thus far with Ctrl Alt Store has been great and a preview inot what we can expect from your GB software.

[norbauer]

No problem cody, I figured you were busy, so didn't pursue aggressively. You work thus far with Ctrl Alt Store has been great and a preview inot what we can expect from your GB software.

I agree with Moz. The Ctrl Alt Store stuff is excellent. Let me know if you want me to help with future projects--I can provide free hosting on Windows Azure if that would be helpful.

[norbauer]

OK. Latest version.

Moz and Lechner: you guys like? Happy to reconfigure in any way that suits you.

I really like it 

Concerning the legend discussion:

There are too many ISO variations out there to make everybody happy. So just take the one that you like and SP has available. I mean we are talking about differences with tertiary legends here...

Personally, I couldn't care less what legends are on it as long as there is anything on it. After all half of all the keys are wrong for me (especially numrow symbols), but since I don't have to look at my keyboard while typing it doesn't matter.

For me it's all about the looks:

Nothing looks odder than a keyboard full of legend keys and a couple of blank keys mixed in. The Bumblebee Set had blank ISO enter keys, which killed it for me.

This totally makes sense and seems reasonable to me. Leaving those keys would look really weird (I tried it out in the mock-ups). If we're going to put something there, it might as well be approximations of what those keys will be for many ISO users. Beyond that, no need to seek perfection. Yeah, it doesn't make for a legend-to-key mapping that is perfect, but after all, half of these legends are intentionally techno-jibberish anyway! That's part of the whole theme of the set.

OK, back to work on the final specs. It's been a busy and distracted week/weekend, but I'm almost done—I promise! 

[norbauer]

I would suggest also adding a </> key in the light blue color. That should wrap it up.

Will do.

[codyeatworld]

No problem cody, I figured you were busy, so didn't pursue aggressively. You work thus far with Ctrl Alt Store has been great and a preview inot what we can expect from your GB software.

No problem cody, I figured you were busy, so didn't pursue aggressively. You work thus far with Ctrl Alt Store has been great and a preview inot what we can expect from your GB software.

I agree with Moz. The Ctrl Alt Store stuff is excellent. Let me know if you want me to help with future projects--I can provide free hosting on Windows Azure if that would be helpful.

Thanks alot guys!  And sure thing!
Although I've never used Windows Azure before. I'm not sure what its all about either.

Add me on skype or send me a PM

[norbauer]

OK everyone. Final mockups! Please go over these with a fine-toothed comb and look for any errors. The time has passed for nit-picking creative choices, though, so please only point out any genuine errors.

I am attaching inline PNG images and downloadable PDFs. The PDFs are generally better to use, if slightly less convenient—it's possible to zoom in without loss of quality.

I hope to send final design specs over to Massdrop tomorrow afternoon (EST in the USA), so please submit any caught errors ASAP. Then I'll work on promotional graphics, and we could have this thing going as early as this week!


PDF:  Galaxy Class - Core Keyset (Final Design).pdf


PDF:  Galaxy Class - Tenkey Keyset (Final Design).pdf


PDF:  Galaxy Class - Mods Keyset (Final Design).pdf


PDF:  Galaxy Class - Ergodox Keyset (Final Design).pdf (100.17 kB - downloaded 239 times.)

[MOZ]

Include a 1u "+" GE on YCF in the numpad.

Are the bottom row mods in the MODS keyset, 1.25u or 1.5u. If 1.25u, we need to include a Tsangan kit.

Tsangan kit:
1x 1.75u shift in YCF
1x 1u Fn in YCF
1x 1.5u Ctrl in RCJ
1x 1.5u Ctrl in YCF
2x 1.5u Alt in RCJ
1x 1u Win in RCJ
1x 1u Win in YCF
3x 1u Buffer, Trans, Phase in YCF
1x 1u Nav in RCJ
7u spacebar in GE
7u spacebar in TU

[norbauer]

Include a 1u "+" GE on YCF in the numpad.

k. will do. To be consistent, though, shouldn't we make this say "SUM"?

Are the bottom row mods in the MODS keyset, 1.25u or 1.5u. If 1.25u, we need to include a Tsangan kit.

Tsangan kit:
1x 1.75u shift in YCF
1x 1u Fn in YCF
1x 1.5u Ctrl in RCJ
1x 1.5u Ctrl in YCF
2x 1.5u Alt in RCJ
1x 1u Win in RCJ
1x 1u Win in YCF
3x 1u Buffer, Trans, Phase in YCF
1x 1u Nav in RCJ
7u spacebar in GE
7u spacebar in TU

They are whatever size is part of the standard mock-up, which I believe is 1.25.

Can somebody explain the tsangan mod to me, btw? Are there keyboards that take these natively? I've always wondered what tsangan kits are for. Anyway, I'll be happy to do this and will get to work on it ASAP.

Should we include these tsangan mods in the catch-all mods set?

[MOZ]

k. will do. To be consistent, though, shouldn't we make this say "SUM"?

Yes, ofcourse, my bad, should have said "SUM".

They are whatever size is part of the standard mock-up, which I believe is 1.25.

Can somebody explain the tsangan mod to me, btw? Are there keyboards that take these natively? I've always wondered what tsangan kits are for. Anyway, I'll be happy to do this and will get to work on it ASAP.

Should we include these tsangan mods in the catch-all mods set?

Tsangan set is used for keyboard using 1.5u base mods for Ctrl and Alt and 1u for Win, and can be WKL. Also, they are designed to support shorter right shift too. Many GB now extend on this to allow for some other weird layouts and add some 1u keys that don't have the usual legends, but some sort fo legends, this allows flexibility while still not looking odd with blank keycaps.

[norbauer]

k. will do. To be consistent, though, shouldn't we make this say "SUM"?

Yes, ofcourse, my bad, should have said "SUM".

They are whatever size is part of the standard mock-up, which I believe is 1.25.

Can somebody explain the tsangan mod to me, btw? Are there keyboards that take these natively? I've always wondered what tsangan kits are for. Anyway, I'll be happy to do this and will get to work on it ASAP.

Should we include these tsangan mods in the catch-all mods set?

Tsangan set is used for keyboard using 1.5u base mods for Ctrl and Alt and 1u for Win, and can be WKL. Also, they are designed to support shorter right shift too. Many GB now extend on this to allow for some other weird layouts and add some 1u keys that don't have the usual legends, but some sort fo legends, this allows flexibility while still not looking odd with blank keycaps.

Cool. Thanks! Updated tenkey set attached. Mods with tsangan stuff coming later tonight (I'm off to dinner now.)

[MOZ]

Looks good, and no rush, take your time.

[norbauer]

Looks good, and no rush, take your time.

Thanks. Will probably finish up the tsangan kit tomorrow AM.

Meantime, here is a mock-up of the promotional banner artwork as it might look in a Massdrop listing for a random one of the sets (tenkey in this case). The idea is we'll have a common banner for all the listings and then in the individual pages we'll show the specs for the actual keyset the drop is for. (i.e., it looks more confusing in this mock-up than it will be in the final version).

[LechnerDE]

Wow, this thing is taking shape really fast!!

Thank you for all the work you already put in Norbauer and MOZ 


So, do I understand it correctly that there will be 4 separate Massdrop GBs?

1. Core Set
2. Tenkey Set
3. Extra Mods Keyset (includes ISO, WASD, and non traditional legend keys, etc.)
4. ErgoDox

Or will it be split up even more like one Drop for the WASD keys, one for ISO, etc.?

[MOZ]

At the moment 4, maybe 5 depending on how we go for the Tsangan.

[norbauer]

Yeah, I think the Massdrop people would prefer to keep this in as few separate drops as possible, mainly to help keep people from getting confused about what to buy, but I'll ask when all the specs are done if they have any advice about combining vs. breaking up the mods. Ultimately, I think they'll do whatever we want though.

[LechnerDE]

Yeah, don't get me wrong. I'am really in favor of the above mentioned sets.

I am just expecting a little uproar from "the usual suspects" who refuse to pay for any key they don't need. In this case the guys who just want the geekhack key and some of the alternate mods, but don't want the WASD cluster or the ISO keys...

In my opinion merging sets is always better in order to reach the lowest price tier. Maybe we should even merge the TKL set and the numpad to avoid confusion for non geekhack members ("normal" people often don't even know there are keyboards without the numpad...).

If basically everybody who is part of this GB has to order a fullsize set the cost for the extra numpad keys will be negligible.

See the price tiers of the Toxic Numpad Set for comparison:

25 Sets $21.90 / set 
50 sets  $13.42 / set 
75 sets  $10.60 / set 
100 sets  $9.18 / set 
150 sets  $7.77 / set
200 sets  $7.06 / set 
250 sets  $6.64 / set

I don't think any TKL only user would really mind to pay ~7$ extra for a Numpad he could either sell later or just keep as an option.

I know the prices for this GB won't be as low due to custom legends etc., but I think it's worth discussing - sometimes you have to force people to do the right thing

[norbauer]

Yeah, don't get me wrong. I'am really in favor of the above mentioned sets.

I am just expecting a little uproar from "the usual suspects" who refuse to pay for any key they don't need. In this case the guys who just want the geekhack key and some of the alternate mods, but don't want the WASD cluster or the ISO keys...

In my opinion merging sets is always better in order to reach the lowest price tier. Maybe we should even merge the TKL set and the numpad to avoid confusion for non geekhack members ("normal" people often don't even know there are keyboards without the numpad...).

If basically everybody who is part of this GB has to order a fullsize set the cost for the extra numpad keys will be negligible.

See the price tiers of the Toxic Numpad Set for comparison:

25 Sets $21.90 / set 
50 sets  $13.42 / set 
75 sets  $10.60 / set 
100 sets  $9.18 / set 
150 sets  $7.77 / set
200 sets  $7.06 / set 
250 sets  $6.64 / set

I don't think any TKL only user would really mind to pay ~7$ extra for a Numpad he could either sell later or just keep as an option.

I know the prices for this GB won't be as low due to custom legends etc., but I think it's worth discussing - sometimes you have to force people to do the right thing

I'm actually in favor of this. I have been worried for some time about people ordering just a Tenkey set, or just a Core set and then ending up unhappy missing keys after the drop is over because they ordered the wrong thing. If we have three sets: Core, Ergodox, and Mods, the chance of this is greatly minimized (only people who foolishly order a set called "mods" and nothing else would end up missing keys to cover a full board), and it would also help with price tier pooling. Unfortunately it'll require extra work reworking the mock-ups again, but I would be happy to do it to make things simpler.

Thoughts from anyone else would be welcome. What do you think, Moz?

[norbauer]

Include a 1u "+" GE on YCF in the numpad.

Are the bottom row mods in the MODS keyset, 1.25u or 1.5u. If 1.25u, we need to include a Tsangan kit.

Tsangan kit:
1x 1.75u shift in YCF
1x 1u Fn in YCF
1x 1.5u Ctrl in RCJ
1x 1.5u Ctrl in YCF
2x 1.5u Alt in RCJ
1x 1u Win in RCJ
1x 1u Win in YCF
3x 1u Buffer, Trans, Phase in YCF
1x 1u Nav in RCJ
7u spacebar in GE
7u spacebar in TU

OK, does this look right?

[MOZ]

Looks good. I'll do a quick mockup to make sure everything is in order.

[MOZ]

I am not in favour of adding the numpad to the core, simply because I believe there are enough members who use a numpad separately.

[CPTBadAss]

Tsangan looks fine and I think that LechnerDE has the right idea if we're going to be working with MassDrop. The less confusion and the simpler the setup, the better off the Drop will work. MassDrop definitely has a wider, non-GeekHack related audience so simplicity is a big benefit.

[stoic-lemon]

I don't use a number at the moment, but I wouldn't mind it being added to the core set. Probably best to keep this one simple and it wouldn't adversely affect the price.

[norbauer]

I am not in favour of adding the numpad to the core, simply because I believe there are enough members who use a numpad separately.

I actually use a Realforce 87U + a KMAC PAD myself. However, realistically, how many people do you think are likely to be interested in just the tenkey set and also unwilling to purchase the core along with it? If I were in the same situation, I would just buy the core set and keep the alphas around, or sell them on GH. People using separate MX numpads are usually going to be pretty hard-core keyboard nerds and either happy to have some spare keys for fun or will be plugged into GH well enough to sell them easily on the classifieds.

If we compare that pretty small group of people who use a separate numpad and are also unwilling to buy the core set to go along with it with the large number of people who are likely to be confused by all the different sets for sale, I'm with CPTBadAss, stoic-lemon, and Lechner: I think having three simple and comprehensive sets actually makes the most sense.

A friend just casually posted in a subreddit thread about Star Trek our keyset the other day and I instantly got 20 people signing up on the notification list I created. Once we start promoting this widely (rather than a casual mention buried deep in a subreddit comments thread), I think we're going to bring in a lot of Trekkers who are new to mech keyboards, so I think whatever we can do to make this a friendly and welcoming set to buy for n00bs, the better.

[MOZ]

Congratulations, you have me convinced

[norbauer]

Congratulations, you have me convinced

Hehe. OK, I'll get to work on reworking the mockups from four into three.