Author Topic: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - GB LIVE!!!  (Read 127300 times)

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Offline norbauer

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #400 on: Mon, 28 October 2013, 11:14:13 »
Here the updated specs. Ergodox remains unchanged and tenkey has been merged into core.

41314-0
PDF: * Galaxy Class - Core Keyset (Final Design).pdf

41317-2
PDF: * Galaxy Class - Mods Keyset (Final Design).pdf

Let me know what you guys think. I believe we're getting close.

Offline Dansor

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #401 on: Mon, 28 October 2013, 12:19:29 »
I want this more than ever now!
Of course, I'll have to buy the modifier kit just for the red Eject Core button ;)

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Offline crazee64

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #402 on: Tue, 29 October 2013, 03:03:41 »
I was thinking of getting a new TKL board to put this on but I agree that putting the numpad in core is a good idea. Regarding the gamer keys, would they just be a different colour or also dished?

Opinions?
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Offline norbauer

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #403 on: Tue, 29 October 2013, 09:22:30 »
I was thinking of getting a new TKL board to put this on but I agree that putting the numpad in core is a good idea. Regarding the gamer keys, would they just be a different colour or also dished?

Opinions?

It's a cool idea in principle, but unfortunately given that we're using right-bottom aligned legends, deep-dish keys are problematic. In order to align the legend in the same position as on the other keys, it puts the legend entirely off the face of the key. This is why I only used deep-dish on the "5" key for the numpad: because the legend is round and takes up the entire face of the key—an intentional design choice so I could use at least one deepdish key. ;)

Offline norbauer

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #404 on: Tue, 29 October 2013, 09:27:57 »
OK guys. I'm packaging this stuff up to send over to Massdrop now. This doesn't mean that we absolutely can't make any changes to the design, but the bar for any changes is getting gradually higher. I wouldn't like to go do Massdrop and SP with any changes after sending them our specs this second time unless it were for a significant error or necessary change.

I'm going to ask for some guidance on timeline (how long the drop will last, when it will start, and how long manufacturing and shipment will take) and will report back when I have answers.

Does anybody have any thoughts on how long the actual GB ordering phase should last? I was thinking maybe a couple of weeks. This is longer than the traditional Massdrop GB, but I don't think they'll mind doing a longer one for us. My thinking is that we'll need some time to spread the word far and wide beyond the GH and Massdrop communities, and two weeks should give us some breathing room in that regard.

Offline norbauer

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #405 on: Wed, 30 October 2013, 16:51:53 »
SP is making us up a new set of price tiers right now based on the newly consolidated sets.

Meantime: does anyone have any thoughts on how long the GB ordering phase should last? Massdrop says they normally do one week but can make it longer for us. My intuition is that longer would be better, and I was thinking something like 2-3 weeks, as that is more in line with what I've typically seen on GH in the past. I know people are eager to get these into production, though, so it's always a balance.

Any thoughts?

Offline AKmalamute

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #406 on: Wed, 30 October 2013, 17:01:11 »
Longer is better, but there may be another way to get the same effect. So, drum up interest with this IC thread, and I assume someone posted it to Deskthority, but ... can we get some major "publication" like the guy at AnAndTech's kbd dept to review the concept keycaps sets, and focusing on what LCARS would look like?

 Of course, someone would probably have to run off about five copies of the proposed keys would look like, then send them to various reporters ... but include with them, a mention of MD and the proposed start date for the GB there.

 AnAndTech is why I have an account here, I'm sure it would draw others.

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Offline CalmB4tehPwn

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #407 on: Wed, 30 October 2013, 18:04:08 »
I feel like 2 weeks is a proper amount of time. Firstly, because it almost ensures anyone interested has a paycheck while orders are open, gives us time for exposure, and isn't so long as to make anybody antsy waiting.

Also, I missed about a week of this conversation. Do we plan to include a keycap puller with the set? I will be advertising this as a "If you're new to mechanical keyboards, pick up this set and a QFR at this link:" sort of thing, and I'm trying to avoid sending them to so many places it feels overwhelming.
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Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #408 on: Thu, 31 October 2013, 07:11:41 »
I feel like 2 weeks is a proper amount of time. Firstly, because it almost ensures anyone interested has a paycheck while orders are open, gives us time for exposure, and isn't so long as to make anybody antsy waiting.

Also, I missed about a week of this conversation. Do we plan to include a keycap puller with the set? I will be advertising this as a "If you're new to mechanical keyboards, pick up this set and a QFR at this link:" sort of thing, and I'm trying to avoid sending them to so many places it feels overwhelming.

Most if not all new mechanical keyboards come with some type of key puller.

Offline LechnerDE

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #409 on: Thu, 31 October 2013, 08:02:25 »
I think 2 weeks is fine.

A major advantage of doing this stuff with Massdrop is that we don't need as much ordering time as usual:

First of all I hope way more people see this offer on Massdrop compared to someone posting in the GB forum and I also think "normal" people are not as patient as we are.

If we make the ordering period too long some people might even lose interest, because they might reconsider and come to the conclusion that it's just not reasonable to buy a set of keycaps that is more expensive than the keyboard itself ;)

There also is the "commit to buy at a certain price option" which we don't have here on Geekhack. Often times GBs are dragged out because people wait for better price tiers etc. With that option in mind there is no need for an extensive ordering period in my opinion.

Offline norbauer

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #410 on: Thu, 31 October 2013, 10:02:21 »
Firstly, thanks for all the input on the drop duration. Sounds like 2 weeks is a good consensus number; we'll go with that.

Now onto a much bigger (and, frankly, at this point somewhat comical) issue.

Technical constraints and ABS DS

I have been working with the engineers at SP right now on the finalized designs, and it turns out that the doubleshot molding process is actually very ill-suited to our particular legend set. I'll give you the TLDR on the technical constraints below, but the short version of the story is: if we want good looking legends, we might actually need to switch back to PBT! :eek: I am trying to speak to one of their engineers directly right now, and I am going to do everything I can to see if ABS DS will work, but given the technical document I just got from SP, it's not looking good.

Given that PBT actually won the vote by a small margin, I presume this is going to be fine. But I wanted to run it by everyone just the same.

We've gone back and forth on the issue so much that I've kind of forgotten the details and considerations, and want to know if anyone sees any problem with PBT  that I'm not remembering. :S The big problem with PBT from a design perspective was the awful orange color, however, so if we have to use PBT I'm going to see if they can make us up a custom "spot color" yellow from a Pantone swatch, even if it costs a bit more. I was also originally concerned about legends being more blurry with dyesub, but I have since seen (in person) some SP dyesub work and it appears to be excellent and crisp, even if not quite as much as DS.

Price: for this particular set, the cost is more or less identical, so no worries there for people participating in this GB. In the long term however, it means that subsequent rounds will also cost about the same, whereas with ABS DS would have cost less (by virtue of being able to re-use the molds).

TLDR technical stuff on why ABS DS is a problem for our set.

So, the way that doubleshot molds are made is through the use of a robotic rotary cutter with a round tip. Rather than defining vector outlines, you can thus only define a centerline along which this round cutter tip will travel when making the mold. Ends of lines using this technique are thus invariably rounded, and it's very hard to make hard corners and angles, unless they are the sides of a straight line. So, for example, on an octothorpe ("#") you would get crisp and hard right angles at the four points where the four lines meet, but the endpoints of each line would necessarily be rounded. You can also not vary the width of a single line within a single cut.

41954-0


Have a look at the following doubleshot legends, given the above, and you'll be able to envision clearly how the mold-cutting process that made them works, and why they look like they do.





Notice how every endpoint is rounded, and how generally rounded things are that would otherwise be right angles in a conventional design. I have always wondered why doubleshot keyset legends have had this rounded look, and I always assumed it was an intentional choice of the set designers. Well, I guess now I know. =\

Of course, the problem with all of this is that the canonical "LCARS" font (namely, Bitstream's SWISS 911 Ultra Compressed) has lots of hard endpoints, which are kind of important to the characteristic and futuristic look of the font. There are also other issues with doubleshot as it applies to our set (the numpad as originally envisioned wouldn't be possible, since they can't bring doubleshot legends to the edge of key faces).

By constrast, dye sublimation is an actual printing process, so there are considerably fewer constraints. Here is a SP dyesub key:



This seems much more likely to yield faithful results. Regardless of how one might feel about doubleshot vs dyesub or PBT vs ABS, I think the most important thing for this set is not just a set that looks inherently good, but one that expresses a particular design idea and theme that is faithful to the original that we are trying to evoke. So I have tried at every point in the process to favor whatever manufacturing processes and materials that would give us the best result along that specific axis, and that's what I'm recommending now.

As I said, this is an in-process discussion with SP, but I wanted to solicit feedback and thoughts to bring to my discussions with their engineers and Massdrop as we figure this all out.

Thanks!
« Last Edit: Thu, 31 October 2013, 10:10:07 by norbauer »

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #411 on: Thu, 31 October 2013, 10:25:31 »
Yes, please make these from dyesub PBT so I won't have to buy them. ;)

Yep, that's how much I hate PBT.
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Offline norbauer

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #412 on: Thu, 31 October 2013, 10:35:34 »
Yes, please make these from dyesub PBT so I won't have to buy them. ;)

Yep, that's how much I hate PBT.

Any particular reason?

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #413 on: Thu, 31 October 2013, 10:51:54 »
Yes, please make these from dyesub PBT so I won't have to buy them. ;)

Yep, that's how much I hate PBT.

Any particular reason?

I don't like the way they feel. It's probably the main reason I don't dig Topre boards all that much. Same for buckling spring.
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Offline norbauer

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #414 on: Thu, 31 October 2013, 11:34:44 »
Yes, please make these from dyesub PBT so I won't have to buy them. ;)

Yep, that's how much I hate PBT.

Any particular reason?

I don't like the way they feel. It's probably the main reason I don't dig Topre boards all that much. Same for buckling spring.

Well, I can't argue with that. :) I myself prefer the feel of PBT and the legend crispness (notwithstanding line rounding) of ABS.

I'm trying to set aside personal preference for this set though so we can get the highest fidelity set in accordance with the theme/premise.

Anybody else have objections or ideas on the legends issue in particular?

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #415 on: Thu, 31 October 2013, 12:22:54 »
You knowledge bomb was awesome to read but I can't see your pictures at work. The filter blocks them. :(

For what it's worth, I will say that like jdcarpe, if these are in PBT, I won't buy them. And it's for the same reason as Jdcarpe, just don't like how most PBT feels.

Offline norbauer

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #416 on: Thu, 31 October 2013, 12:50:45 »
Bummer that jdcarpe and CPTBadAss would bail if we went with PBT. You guys have been great supporters through this process.

Here are the questions I just put to the SP engineers. I'll let you know what I find out.

Quote
•   Can you confirm for me that PBT dyesub would result in better font fidelity? Presumably the dot pitch of whatever method you use to render the dyesub pad is smaller than whatever the smallest diameter of your mold cutter is, resulting in better resolution of vectors.
•   Can dyesub mockups be presented in the form of vector outlines rather than centerline traces?
•   Can you do a full bleed to the edge of the keycap face (or at least closer) with dyesub?
•   One of the biggest problems with PBT was that for our yellow/orange color, none of your color ring swatches provided us with an appropriate color match. Can you do custom colors based on a Pantone number? If so, can you let us know what the addition of a single custom color plastic (to replace the yellow) would cost as part of a PBT rendering of this set? For all of the other colors, we have PBT alternatives already selected from the stock SP color line.

Other thoughts are welcome as we wait for a reply from SP. I'll be interested in Moz's opinion, if he has one.

Anyone else have experience preparing custom legend graphics to send to SP for rendering using the doubleshot mold cutter?

Offline MOZ

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #417 on: Thu, 31 October 2013, 12:56:28 »
I am one of the people that really don't like PBT or DSA for that matter.

However, like norbauer, my primary agenda is to make this as authentic as possible, with personal preferences aside. So, yes, if this means making this keyset in PBT DSA, then be it, I will just swallow it up.

It is however very unfortunate that we weren't able to go with the ABS DS, specially with all the work norbauer had put into it.

Offline norbauer

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #418 on: Thu, 31 October 2013, 13:06:24 »
I am one of the people that really don't like PBT or DSA for that matter.

However, like norbauer, my primary agenda is to make this as authentic as possible, with personal preferences aside. So, yes, if this means making this keyset in PBT DSA, then be it, I will just swallow it up.

It is however very unfortunate that we weren't able to go with the ABS DS, specially with all the work norbauer had put into it.

Heh. Yeah, I'm not really looking forward to re-working the graphics yet again. =\ But better to spend a bit of time up front and have something that fits the vision in the long run. Most of the graphics can be reworked by only changing the colors anyway, so it's NBD. To re-render the doubleshots as centerline traces would actually have taken more time/work, with an unfortunately inferior result. (This document explains the process, and it is quite painstaking.)

For those who are curious, here is an image that demonstrates in rough terms how the centerline vs vector edge techniques differ in terms of font rendering (printing is on the left, and mold-cutting is on the right). Even making the line much finer, it still looks very rounded and Comic-Sans-like.

41975-0
« Last Edit: Thu, 31 October 2013, 13:09:39 by norbauer »

Offline Michael

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #419 on: Thu, 31 October 2013, 13:52:04 »
'Make it happen'???? Come on dude really? At least use the correct term (Make It So) :P




Also, 'Dis Engage' looks odd. Perhaps 'Red Alert'?

Offline norbauer

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #420 on: Thu, 31 October 2013, 14:35:51 »
'Make it happen'???? Come on dude really? At least use the correct term (Make It So) :P

Also, 'Dis Engage' looks odd. Perhaps 'Red Alert'?

umm, I think you're working on outdated info? Those details were in the original quick mock-up by Moz, but they were long ago changed based on feedback.

Offline LechnerDE

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #421 on: Thu, 31 October 2013, 14:55:15 »
Concerning the ABS vs PBT debate I am indifferent - I like both depending on mood and switch type ;)

But one thing is unclear to me:

I always thought the dyesub process only works on white keycaps? Can they do all colors now?

I mean the main appeal of the set are all the authentic base colors (yellow, purple, etc.).

I don't want to buy an all white set with purple printing on top, etc...

Offline Michael

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #422 on: Thu, 31 October 2013, 15:41:24 »
Concerning the ABS vs PBT debate I am indifferent - I like both depending on mood and switch type ;)

But one thing is unclear to me:

I always thought the dyesub process only works on white keycaps? Can they do all colors now?

I mean the main appeal of the set are all the authentic base colors (yellow, purple, etc.).

I don't want to buy an all white set with purple printing on top, etc...


Any darker color on a lighter color usually is fine for dye sub. meaning the legends need to be darker than the base color of the key cap

Offline CalmB4tehPwn

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #423 on: Thu, 31 October 2013, 16:50:06 »
Everyone knows I'm in for this if it's PBT. I'm actually quite excited, and haven't seen any PBT in SA or DSA.

I hope massdrop includes all the price breaks, because there will most likely be hundreds of buys coming in from GH alone, not to include which ever trekkies we can pull in.
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Offline crazee64

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #424 on: Thu, 31 October 2013, 17:03:23 »
I'm also excited for PBT and in DSA too - can't wait. I prefer the feel and I definitely agree that the font rendering is going to be paramount on this set, I don't think the colour scheme alone will carry the idea across to someone who doesn't know what it's meant to be without that futuristic font.

Regarding the dye sub process, IIRC you can print any colour onto a lighter surface so black and grey onto lightish caps should be fine. I know my Ducky has black on blue and dark grey caps.
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Offline norbauer

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #425 on: Thu, 31 October 2013, 18:23:55 »
Got lots more info from SP to share with you guys, and it looks like PBT is definitely going to be the way to go for this particular set due to the nature of the font and the graphical nav wheel/numpad. For those of you who, like me, enjoy geeking out on the manufacturing details, I'll provide more info in a subsequent post when I have time to sit down at my computer, probably tomorrow AM. I'll try to get some re-worked graphics to go with it.

Briefly, though, I'll just mention the best news: they can do a custom LCARS yellow for us! Now I just have to get my hands on a Pantone swatch set to pick a color that goes with the SP color ring plastics samples I have. Anybody know where I can find one in Boston? I'll buy one if need be, NBD.

Everyone knows I'm in for this if it's PBT. I'm actually quite excited, and haven't seen any PBT in SA or DSA.

I hope massdrop includes all the price breaks, because there will most likely be hundreds of buys coming in from GH alone, not to include which ever trekkies we can pull in.

Awesome. I'll make sure that all the price tiers are included, no worries on that. That is basically the premise of Massdrop. :)

Regarding the dye sub process, IIRC you can print any colour onto a lighter surface so black and grey onto lightish caps should be fine. I know my Ducky has black on blue and dark grey caps.

Correct. So long as the dye is noticeably darker than the substrate color, and that would be true for all of our keys. I'll double check and make any tweaks as necessary.


Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #426 on: Thu, 31 October 2013, 18:28:07 »
For those of you who, like me, enjoy geeking out on the manufacturing details, I'll provide more info in a subsequent post when I have time to sit down at my computer, probably tomorrow AM.

I would like more manufacturing details!! :D

Got lots more info from SP to share with you guys, and it looks like PBT is definitely going to be the way to go for this particular set due to the nature of the font and the graphical nav wheel/numpad.

:(

Offline crazee64

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #427 on: Thu, 31 October 2013, 18:40:39 »
+1 for details. This is pretty cool stuff. I appreciate all the work you've put in so far.
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Offline CalmB4tehPwn

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #428 on: Thu, 31 October 2013, 19:27:10 »
I just wanted to clarify, I've never seen a Massdrop buy in that had more than a couple price tiers, where SP always has upwards of like 8 price breaks. I'm curious to see how it translates.
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Offline norbauer

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #429 on: Thu, 31 October 2013, 19:30:59 »
I just wanted to clarify, I've never seen a Massdrop buy in that had more than a couple price tiers, where SP always has upwards of like 8 price breaks. I'm curious to see how it translates.

I've seen up to 4 or 5, but anyway, I'm assuming they can collapse the intervening tiers as new lower tiers are reached. I'm guessing the limited number of bubbles you see are just a UI constraint and not an issue with the underlying business logic. I had been meaning to confirm this with them.

In any case, I will have and, and will post the actual final tiers from SP, we can make sure to keep Massdrop honest on this. It's a good point, though; thanks for reminding me about it.

Offline divito

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #430 on: Thu, 31 October 2013, 19:34:38 »
Can't wait to hear more info.
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Offline MOZ

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #431 on: Thu, 31 October 2013, 20:30:14 »
I don't think we are really going to have any problems qoing with PBT Dyesub, there are many many users on GH and each with their own taste, double-shots or dyesubs are most people's favorite, so you can't go wrong with either.

It is good news that we can go with another yellow of our own choice, what are the cost overheads with this?

Offline norbauer

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #432 on: Fri, 01 November 2013, 09:07:37 »
+1 for details. This is pretty cool stuff. I appreciate all the work you've put in so far.

For those of you who, like me, enjoy geeking out on the manufacturing details, I'll provide more info in a subsequent post when I have time to sit down at my computer, probably tomorrow AM.

I would like more manufacturing details!! :D

Thanks, everybody. Now that I've had a chance to sit down at my computer and write up a proper reply, I thought I'd provide some more info on the SP manufacturing and printing processes.

Firstly, in order to determine whether there will be a special fee or not for making us a custom yellow, they wanted to know how many we estimate that we'll be producing. Can anyone give me an educated guess on this? I'd venture that we'll surpass traditional GH group buy numbers given that this set has appeal beyond just the keyboard enthusiast community, but we should estimate conservatively. They want to know how many units of yellow we're likely to produce across all sets (where a 1u key = 1 unit, 2u key = 2 units). Traditionally, they don't like to make up a batch of a new color for anything less than 7,000 units of that color, because it means they lose money on the whole set. So if we don't hit that mark, there may be a fee (I'll ask precisely how much it is).

Now, for the tech background.

As I was able to surmise based on their requirements for doubleshot artwork, they are in fact using a round CNC router tip to make the doubleshot ABS legend molds (cut into brass plates). As such, there is no way to avoid round corners, and fine detail is often hard to mold—and certain types of detail are simply impossible to mold. The SWISS 911 font would come out of the process basically unrecognizable. Doubleshot can yield excellent results with designs that are especially made with its constraints in mind, but that really wasn't suitable in this case since we had to go with the particular type of (very angular) lettering already established by the original production designers.

The reason that doubleshot designs need to be provided by centerline traces is that they literally define the path that the round CNC routing head travels to cut the mold. The creation of glyph and artwork edges are merely incidental to this process, so we don't have control over their contours directly.

Sublimation, by contrast, works by using a special ink and paper processed in what is essentially an inkjet printer (microscopic dots of dye applied to a printing medium). The dot pitch of that printer is considerably smaller than the minimum cutting diameter of their smallest CNC tip, so resolution is inherently much better and allows for a much more faithful rendering of glyphs like those in the Galaxy Class set. Angular corners and line endpoints are no problem. They can even do multiple colors. Sublimation itself involves turning the printed dye into a gas and then impregnating that into the keycap surface. The physics of this does result in some bleeding of the edges into the surrounding substrate, but this usually isn't so bad (based on examples I've seen), and it does at least preserve the proper outlines of the glyphs, even if they are ever so slightly blurred compared to a doubleshot edge (visible really only very close or under a microscope). There are two types of dye sublimation that SP can do. There is their in-house inkjet approach (described above) and an even higher-quality screen-printing approach, which all but eliminates the modest edge blurring, but it is more expensive and subject to high minimums (which they don't know yet whether we'll meet until I can give them a vague estimate of how many sets we're likely to sell). I think most examples of dyesub you're likely ever to have encountered were made with the first, less expensive, in-house SP process.

Sublimation mock-ups are to be provided as Adobe Illustrator files, which happens to be precisely how I made ours, so that works out nicely. They are also based on vector outlines rather than centerline traces, as suspected.

They can also do full bleeds to the edge of keycaps using dyesub, so our numpad wheel design should be no problem.

So, in short, I guess this choice is a no-brainer for this particular set: dyesub of some form appears to be our best bet by far.

I'm currently following up on lots of details on price tiers, special fees, and exploring that option of the screen-printing approach. I'll keep you guys posted as I get more info. And in the meantime, I'm happy to answer any questions. This is all new to me and I'm stumbling my way through it all (I had never used a mechanical keyboard before a few months ago). This process is proving if nothing else a fun learning experience, and I'm happy to share the fruits of that with others are curious how these manufacturing processes work.

Offline MOZ

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #433 on: Fri, 01 November 2013, 09:58:50 »
Loved the knowledge bomb. Very interesting and helps in making decisions for future.

Hopefully the Keepers of Faith can archive this information and add it to the book of knowledge whenever and it whatever format it is published.

Offline norbauer

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #434 on: Fri, 01 November 2013, 10:03:40 »
Loved the knowledge bomb. Very interesting and helps in making decisions for future.

Hopefully the Keepers of Faith can archive this information and add it to the book of knowledge whenever and it whatever format it is published.

I have no idea who these people are, but I'd be happy to help with any such efforts. If GH had a functional wiki, I'd add this info there... ;)

On an unrelated note, I ordered a Pantone book and will find us a good yellow to go with our set. I'm so relieved about that, btw: the existing palette in PBT for the yellows is very anemic, and the orange color we would have had to have gone with would have been all wrong.

Like the Borg, I think our set is asymptotically approaching Perfection.

Anybody want to venture a guess as to how many sets we're likely to sell so I can get that info to SP to see if they'll make us a new color up for free?

Offline LechnerDE

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #435 on: Fri, 01 November 2013, 10:05:02 »
Thanks for the detailed explanations!

I am really looking forward to this set :)

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #436 on: Fri, 01 November 2013, 10:12:53 »
Hopefully the Keepers of Faith can archive this information and add it to the book of knowledge whenever and it whatever format it is published.

I'm just going to add it to the Simple Questions thread since the question of how dye-sub and doubleshots are made comes up often enough.

Firstly, in order to determine whether there will be a special fee or not for making us a custom yellow, they wanted to know how many we estimate that we'll be producing. Can anyone give me an educated guess on this? I'd venture that we'll surpass traditional GH group buy numbers given that this set has appeal beyond just the keyboard enthusiast community, but we should estimate conservatively.

I doubt that we'll hit numbers over 200 like what Toxic currently has. I think Klaxon and Retro DSA were wildly popular as well (200+ sets), but I'm trying to think of numbers off the top of my head. I'm going to guess we'll get a little more than the usual amount of sets because it's cool and its PBT but I don't think it will be that much more. So maybe like 100-150 sets? That seems to be the usual for a "successful" GB: 100-150 sets at about $100-$120 for a full set.

Yes Massdrop has bigger appeal but I'm not convinced that people are going to spend ~$75-$100 (total guess based on successful GBs I've seen) on this set and then ~$100 on a new keyboard just to have this set. $200 seems like a steep entry point for the new audience we're trying to target. Which is one of the reasons I was hesitant about Massdrop.  The market is Trekkies who already have mechanical keyboards? Unless we're hoping that they buy the caps first then get a keyboard.

Also don't we have to pay Massdrop a fee for having them organize this? I think someone said 10-15%. I wasn't sure how that fee is going to work but its going to add to the cost. Which might deter some people from joining.

I have no idea who these people are, but I'd be happy to help with any such efforts. If GH had a functional wiki, I'd add this info there... ;)

Keepers of the Faith mission statement.

Offline norbauer

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #437 on: Fri, 01 November 2013, 10:45:53 »
Thanks, CPTBadAss. The keepers of the faith project is awesome! Didn't know about it before.

I think you'll be surprised by how hard-core many Trekkers are: that community certainly has its wallethack equivalents. There will definitely be people who will buy a mech keyboard just to fit this set onto. I personally know several, and I've seen similar discussions on Reddit when a friend of mine even hinted that this set might be made.

I have been thinking of ways of reducing the cost of the sets, btw, since I need to rework the mock-ups now a bit anyway. What do you guys think about using the non-standard (technobabble) legends for the core modifier keys and then removing those from the mods set? For example, do people really need a legend to tell them where the Ctrl and Alt keys are? I would keep the graphical winkey and move it to the mods set. Most people just need accurate legends for numbers and symbols and in some cases letters. Merging these two branches would save us a few keys, making the mods set less expensive. It would also just provide more legend consistency across the core set. It is kind of weird how we're using non-standard legends in some places and not in others right now. This happened gradually over the course of various discussions about adding mods and I never really stepped back to realize it doesn't exactly make sense.

Offline MOZ

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #438 on: Fri, 01 November 2013, 11:48:29 »
I for one never planned on using standard legends, if I had the option not to, simply because as stated by norbauer also, it didn't make much sense having standard and non-standard legends mixed, when I have the option to use the custom legends.

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #439 on: Fri, 01 November 2013, 12:05:02 »
I think you'll be surprised by how hard-core many Trekkers are: that community certainly has its wallethack equivalents. There will definitely be people who will buy a mech keyboard just to fit this set onto. I personally know several, and I've seen similar discussions on Reddit when a friend of mine even hinted that this set might

Well I hope I'm wrong, I just thought I'd take a guess at a number of sets that would be bought.

I for one never planned on using standard legends, if I had the option not to, simply because as stated by norbauer also, it didn't make much sense having standard and non-standard legends mixed, when I have the option to use the custom legends.

Since the whole project seemed to be about authenticity, it doesn't make sense to have mixed legends. I will say that I do like having the Alt and Ctrl on the caps since I think it looks better.



And thanks for posting all the detailed information norbauer, I'm enjoying it very much and I'll be compiling that info in a central, cohesive location soon. Most likely in Simple Questions Simple Answers. Can't wait to see what else you share with us :D.
« Last Edit: Fri, 01 November 2013, 12:08:12 by CPTBadAss »

Offline crazee64

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #440 on: Fri, 01 November 2013, 17:37:39 »
I was planning on using ctrl and alt in the correct places, probably nav for the menu key and I like the graphical win keys. It's more of a looks thing because I doubt I'd really be hunting for those mods (especially in the dark as I use this board at home - mostly at night).

I'd be cool either way but my preference is for traditional mod legends.
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Offline LechnerDE

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #441 on: Fri, 01 November 2013, 19:11:11 »
As expressed before I am not a fan of inconsistent sets. For me it's either all legends or full blank.

Blank mods will look weird in my opinion. Imagine the "+" key next to the naked "backspace" key which is above the "\" key which is above a blank enter key...


How much would this even save per set? I don't think it even matters. Let's say this reduces the cost -15$. Do you really think this will make the order number significantly higher?

I mean the average guy who has used a 10$ keyboard for his whole life, will think it's way too expensive anyway. And the actual enthusiast or hardcore Star Trek fan will buy the set no matter what. In my opinion we should aim for the real deal and go for a set with complete legends.




Offline norbauer

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #442 on: Fri, 01 November 2013, 19:25:01 »
As expressed before I am not a fan of inconsistent sets. For me it's either all legends or full blank.

Blank mods will look weird in my opinion. Imagine the "+" key next to the naked "backspace" key which is above the "\" key which is above a blank enter key...


How much would this even save per set? I don't think it even matters. Let's say this reduces the cost -15$. Do you really think this will make the order number significantly higher?

I mean the average guy who has used a 10$ keyboard for his whole life, will think it's way too expensive anyway. And the actual enthusiast or hardcore Star Trek fan will buy the set no matter what. In my opinion we should aim for the real deal and go for a set with complete legends.

I wasn't proposing blank legends. I was proposing using the LCARS technobabble legends everywhere (including for Alt and Ctrl) rather than having the technobabble legends for those keys separate in mods.in other words, I'm proposing getting rid of Alt, Ctrl legends and replacing them with the "buffer," "trans", etc legends. This basically just makes the overall sets more consistent and saves some money on the mods price.
« Last Edit: Fri, 01 November 2013, 19:27:42 by norbauer »

Offline LechnerDE

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #443 on: Fri, 01 November 2013, 19:36:32 »
Ah okay. I got that wrong, sorry!

I'm totally fine with this :)

I don't really need a legend that tells me this is the "Alt" key :p

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #444 on: Mon, 11 November 2013, 19:16:02 »
OK everybody. UPDATE time.

So after a lot of back-and-forth with SP, it looks like our options aren't as wide as we were hoping.

ABS doubleshot is going to yield lousy legends for our application; we need to do PBT dyesub if we want any hope of rendering the SWISS 911 font with any fidelity.

However, SP cannot currently sublimate on a full DSA set. (!) They can currently only sublimate on 1u, 1.5u, and 2u  DSA keys. They are working on the appropriate tooling to do all DSA keys, but it will take a few months. Originally they said two. Now here is the latest re timeline:

Quote
We will definitely be building the components for sublimated DSA, it just might be a matter of time. While I am going to push for the next few months, I can't guarantee any kind of completion time frame at this point.

So, what do you guys think we should do? I'm getting a bit discouraged at this point. It seems the best options are a) wait the unspecified time until DSA dyesub is available and spent the intervening time trying to generate interest, working on promo materials, and building up a large mailing list of people who would be interested, or b) re-work to PBT dyesub with DCS profile. I would consider the latter option a major decrease in the uniqueness of the set, but it could still be cool. And it would mean less waiting, for whatever that's worth.

I'm slightly at a loss, and look forward to hearing other people's thoughts.

Offline MOZ

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #445 on: Mon, 11 November 2013, 19:24:55 »
Well I'll be damned, need some time to think this over. :mad:

Offline norbauer

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #446 on: Mon, 11 November 2013, 19:27:28 »
Well I'll be damned, need some time to think this over. :mad:

I feel the same way. Very disappointed. Not sure which course of action is best.

I wish SP advertising their current capabilities more clearly on their website.

Offline divito

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #447 on: Mon, 11 November 2013, 19:29:42 »
OK everybody. UPDATE time.

So after a lot of back-and-forth with SP, it looks like our options aren't as wide as we were hoping.

ABS doubleshot is going to yield lousy legends for our application; we need to do PBT dyesub if we want any hope of rendering the SWISS 911 font with any fidelity.

However, SP cannot currently sublimate on a full DSA set. (!) They can currently only sublimate on 1u, 1.5u, and 2u  DSA keys. They are working on the appropriate tooling to do all DSA keys, but it will take a few months. Originally they said two. Now here is the latest re timeline:

Quote
We will definitely be building the components for sublimated DSA, it just might be a matter of time. While I am going to push for the next few months, I can't guarantee any kind of completion time frame at this point.

So, what do you guys think we should do? I'm getting a bit discouraged at this point. It seems the best options are a) wait the unspecified time until DSA dyesub is available and spent the intervening time trying to generate interest, working on promo materials, and building up a large mailing list of people who would be interested, or b) re-work to PBT dyesub with DCS profile. I would consider the latter option a major decrease in the uniqueness of the set, but it could still be cool. And it would mean less waiting, for whatever that's worth.

I'm slightly at a loss, and look forward to hearing other people's thoughts.

In my opinion, I put more stock in "our" collective ability to be ready and proceed at our own pace. Drumming up interest in a maybe two months, or maybe five months is going to be a tough sell, and tough position to be in when we have no control.

Doesn't mean going to DCS means we have to be instantly going to a GB, but it means we have a tangible approach in wait time for those interested in the set, and still allows time for marketing, etc... It does lose a bit of the lustre for those on the fence of the GB, but I think DCS will still be palatable, and maybe even preferred.
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Offline MOZ

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #448 on: Mon, 11 November 2013, 19:39:25 »
Edit: Nevermind, BSP doesn't have required tooling.
« Last Edit: Mon, 11 November 2013, 19:52:07 by MOZ »

Offline Elrick

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Re: [IC] LCARS keyboard set - TAKING VOTES
« Reply #449 on: Mon, 11 November 2013, 19:56:49 »
Edit: Nevermind, BSP doesn't have required tooling.

Your only bet is still SP - like it or not.  I would wait for their SA profile dye-sub because it would be the absolute FIRST one done here on Geekhack Central.......EVAR  :thumb: .

You need to be the FIRST to blaze a trail for all others to follow here MOZ.  When it goes SA dye-sub all people will remember is the name of the person who started and finished it, and you'll go down in history as the first one who ventured into SA Profile dye-sub, where no one has gone before  8) .
« Last Edit: Mon, 11 November 2013, 20:01:40 by Elrick »