geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: tp4tissue on Wed, 19 December 2012, 22:24:48
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I've been thinking a great deal about switches lately because I am trying to break 135wpm. Currently using MX Blue
And I've come to the conclusion that MX - Black has the best attributes
Reason 1, its linear-smooth, so it will spring back faster than Green or White
Reason 2, its Heavy spring, more force, again, faster than linear RED
Reason 3, Sean Wrona uses it. ;)
Why BLUE is bad.. and linear is superior.. Tactility is useless
I used to think, I "need" the feedback like "Hit-Confirm" in a fighting game.
However, As I improved in skill I realized that I am incredibly fast and accurate without relying on feedback. There is simply no time to feel the response of the key at High speeds.
So, the low spring force of the Blue certainly gets in the way of typing double letters "MORE" quickly like Lettttter, willlll, missssiiiiissssiiipppiii.
The only function of the CLICK if not relied upon for "hit confirm" is to get in the way of the key snapping back.. so it is now only a hindrance to Ultimate speed
With that we weed out the White, Brown, and Green, because the tactility is completely useless...
The little bumps on the White and the Brown will hinder the return travel of the key, just like the click of the Blue and the Green,
Even if it isn't "as much", it is still "in the way"
Thus, I conclude MX Black to be the best geared switch for Speed typing...
Topre is also out of the running because it is also slow for double tap letters.
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You could argue that having a heavier spring makes it worse since you need to apply more force to activate the switch which could instead be used to start moving to press the next key. Also, if you just pushed the switch to the activation point rather than the bottom, the power of the spring wouldn't matter because it would reset instantly.
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You could argue that having a heavier spring makes it worse since you need to apply more force to activate the switch which could instead be used to start moving to press the next key. Also, if you just pushed the switch to the activation point rather than the bottom, the power of the spring wouldn't matter because it would reset instantly.
Agreed.
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That kinda makes sense. It doesn't matter how much force you need to use to press the key down, the import thing is that the key springs back up as quickly as possible, ready for the next press.
Black springs would provide this more so than blue.
How about MX greens as a half-way compromise?
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http://data.typeracer.com/pit/profile?user=cmalmquist
http://data.typeracer.com/pit/profile?user=precariousgray
Browns on my Filco w/ Cherry dyesub PBT and a stock Dolch with blues.
F' your linear switches, son. I still need to try clears/grays, too.
Are you sure Sean uses blacks? He told me he was using a Das Keyboard he won, do they have blacks?
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I think it goes both ways. I do worse on blacks than I do on browns, blues or reds because I find it takes too much force to press down the keys, which slows me do because I have to make sure that I press them hard enough to activate them. I can't just lightly press it and get it to work, and that slows down the time between key presses. The individual switch resetting only matters for double letters, whereas lighter switches would be better for everything else.
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You could argue that having a heavier spring makes it worse since you need to apply more force to activate the switch which could instead be used to start moving to press the next key. Also, if you just pushed the switch to the activation point rather than the bottom, the power of the spring wouldn't matter because it would reset instantly.
No, the heavy spring would NOT hinder your input speed, because the weight and power of your hand can more than enough overcome the force of the switch..
What your hands can't do is make the switch rebound faster....
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http://data.typeracer.com/pit/profile?user=cmalmquist
http://data.typeracer.com/pit/profile?user=precariousgray
Browns on my Filco w/ Cherry dyesub PBT and a stock Dolch with blues.
F' your linear switches, son. I still need to try clears/grays, too.
Are you sure Sean uses blacks? He told me he was using a Das Keyboard he won, do they have blacks?
According to his latest Youtube posts he said "black" but he might've made a mistake, and meant' Brown..
Either way, My point isn't that you CAN"T be fast on brown, or blue, or red, or white..
My point is that BLACK has the BEST attributes suited for faster typing.
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You could argue that having a heavier spring makes it worse since you need to apply more force to activate the switch which could instead be used to start moving to press the next key. Also, if you just pushed the switch to the activation point rather than the bottom, the power of the spring wouldn't matter because it would reset instantly.
No, the heavy spring would NOT hinder your input speed, because the weight and power of your hand can more than enough overcome the force of the switch..
What your hands can't do is make the switch rebound faster....
I'm kind of curious about the actual numbers behind that principle. Would you be able to do them for all switch types relative to a certain text sample to demonstrate how certain switches would allow you to type it faster?
Either way, My point isn't that you CAN"T be fast on brown, or blue, or red, or white..
(http://i.imgur.com/Y0UpW.png)
I guess it was all a dream.
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No, the heavy spring would NOT hinder your input speed, because the weight and power of your hand can more than enough overcome the force of the switch..
What your hands can't do is make the switch rebound faster....
And why not? You can make the switch rebound faster if you don't bottom out, i.e. don't press it so hard. Sure, you can overcome the force of a black's spring by pressing it harder, but then you're pushing the spring further down and it takes it longer to rebound. If you push it less hard it will have less distance to rebound from. So instead of slamming on the keys, dance across them. I have a hard time dancing across blacks because when I press lightly, sometimes I don't push down hard enough to activate the key.
Edit: just to add, I have soft, small hands :P
Edit #2!: Since you might say you can't control not bottoming out when typing quickly, if you can't you could use o-rings. If you're really hardcore enough to worry about the switch resetting being an issue, put enough material so that the switch can only go down to the activation point and no further. The second you let go, it will reset. Then this would favor lighter switches because you could press them down faster since same force vs less resistance = greater speed. Anyways, this is pretty silly to begin with. This is not what's going to suddenly let you jump from where you are to match precarious for example. It's more about little optimization tricks I'd imagine, and things like breaking convention and using the wrong finger to type keys when the right finger would already be busy pressing the previous letter.
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No, the heavy spring would NOT hinder your input speed, because the weight and power of your hand can more than enough overcome the force of the switch..
What your hands can't do is make the switch rebound faster....
And why not? You can make the switch rebound faster if you don't bottom out, i.e. don't press it so hard. Sure, you can overcome the force of a black's spring by pressing it harder, but then you're pushing the spring further down and it takes it longer to rebound. If you push it less hard it will have less distance to rebound from. So instead of slamming on the keys, dance across them. I have a hard time dancing across blacks because when I press lightly, sometimes I don't push down hard enough to activate the key.
Edit: just to add, I have soft, small hands :P
the dancing bit is more or less essential when typing at 9999 words per second, and it's not really easy even with my gigantic skull-crushing hands.
click like a butterfly, clack like a bee
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After using cherry reds for about a year now, I gotta admit ya know, my fingers fly across that mofo like nobody's business
but it's hard to tell. Def. slowest on clears, that's for sure.
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I've found that I make many more mistakes on linears. I tried them for months, and just could never get used to them. As far as Cherry's go, I'm still fastest on browns, followed closely by blues and then finally reds and blacks.
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You could argue that having a heavier spring makes it worse since you need to apply more force to activate the switch which could instead be used to start moving to press the next key. Also, if you just pushed the switch to the activation point rather than the bottom, the power of the spring wouldn't matter because it would reset instantly.
No, the heavy spring would NOT hinder your input speed, because the weight and power of your hand can more than enough overcome the force of the switch..
What your hands can't do is make the switch rebound faster....
I'm kind of curious about the actual numbers behind that principle. Would you be able to do them for all switch types relative to a certain text sample to demonstrate how certain switches would allow you to type it faster?
Either way, My point isn't that you CAN"T be fast on brown, or blue, or red, or white..
I guess it was all a dream.
Uhm.....
T = 2*pi*sqrt(m/k)
T is time
k is the Spring constant
Black has "higher" spring constant, 200 Newton/Meter
Red has "lower" spring constant, 150 Newton/Meter
We actually only need to look at that equation alone... no numbers needed
K is the spring constant.. If you INCREASE K, T will decrease..
T is the time per oscillation.. If this time decreases, it means the cycle was completed in LESS TIME, thus it rebounded FASTER.
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I've found that I make many more mistakes on linears. I tried them for months, and just could never get used to them. As far as Cherry's go, I'm still fastest on browns, followed closely by blues and then finally reds and blacks.
Don't blame the linear just cuz you suck... JKJKJKJK
It's not the switches fault is all i'm saying..
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No, the heavy spring would NOT hinder your input speed, because the weight and power of your hand can more than enough overcome the force of the switch..
What your hands can't do is make the switch rebound faster....
And why not? You can make the switch rebound faster if you don't bottom out, i.e. don't press it so hard. Sure, you can overcome the force of a black's spring by pressing it harder, but then you're pushing the spring further down and it takes it longer to rebound. If you push it less hard it will have less distance to rebound from. So instead of slamming on the keys, dance across them. I have a hard time dancing across blacks because when I press lightly, sometimes I don't push down hard enough to activate the key.
Edit: just to add, I have soft, small hands :P
Edit #2!: Since you might say you can't control not bottoming out when typing quickly, if you can't you could use o-rings. If you're really hardcore enough to worry about the switch resetting being an issue, put enough material so that the switch can only go down to the activation point and no further. The second you let go, it will reset. Then this would favor lighter switches because you could press them down faster since same force vs less resistance = greater speed. Anyways, this is pretty silly to begin with. This is not what's going to suddenly let you jump from where you are to match precarious for example. It's more about little optimization tricks I'd imagine, and things like breaking convention and using the wrong finger to type keys when the right finger would already be busy pressing the previous letter.
OK, I must iterate for the 10th time.. IF YOU DON"T bottom out YOU WILL BE TYPING VERY SLOWLY....
Tap the table, can you tap it faster by stopping "exactly" at the top of the table,, OR can you tap it faster by hitting it nice and hard...
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Warning! Flaimbait detected... Oh, what the heck!!
The only way I can think of someone coming to that conclusion is if they had their head stuck up Cherry's nether regions.
The MX blue/white/green mechanism is definitely not the standard-bearer for how nicely a keyswitch can rebound/reset.
Unless you've got Paul Bunyon fingers, no way is MX black a typist's switch; it presses firmly on your fingers all the way down and all the way back up and that makes them icky and tiresome for typing (severely bottoming-out through short bursts on Typeracer notwithstanding).
And this is from someone who uses an ALPS black board as a daily driver.
Tactile key switches will always be favored for typing among any sizable group of typists (thus nullifying flights of individual derangement) which is why even Apple-style chiclet boards are often considered better than MX black.
Personally, I'm just glad the available options are expanding further beyond Cherry's rainbow of mediocrity. They have not done justice to the typists' preference for tactility in their switches.
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Warning! Flaimbait detected... Oh, what the heck!!
The only way I can think of someone coming to that conclusion is if they had their head stuck up Cherry's nether regions.
The MX blue/white/green mechanism is definitely not the standard-bearer for how nicely a keyswitch can rebound/reset.
Unless you've got Paul Bunyon fingers, no way is MX black a typist's switch; it presses firmly on your fingers all the way down and all the way back up and that makes them icky and tiresome for typing (severely bottoming-out through short bursts on Typeracer notwithstanding).
And this is from someone who uses an ALPS black board as a daily driver.
Tactile key switches will always be favored for typing among any sizable group of typists (thus nullifying flights of individual derangement) which is why even Apple-style chiclet boards are often considered better than MX black.
Personally, I'm just glad the available options are expanding further beyond Cherry's rainbow of mediocrity. They have not done justice to the typists' preference for tactility in their switches.
Hey Burz... When you're typing fast though. The tactility serves NO purpose.... Because for true typing... We completely ignore all sensation beyond the Input from the letters to be transcribed into finger movements.
Everything else is blanked out. I don't think about my hands, they just go where they need to go.
How the keyboard feeeel doesn't matter. The key just has to be there when I need it.
And my point is, that for the express purpose of key response.. MX black is more likely to BE THERE...
While the other switches will experience SOME sort of delay due to their respective "tactility-inducing" mechanisms.
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Reason 1, its linear-smooth, so it will spring back faster than Green or White
Reason 2, its Heavy spring, more force, again, faster than linear RED
I agree with what oneproduct said. Sure a heavier spring will allow it to reset faster, but it also requires more force on the keys before it even starts to move down. Your fingers are at rest when you start to press down on it, it has zero initial momentum to begin with. If you started accelerating your fingers a few inches above the keys to give it initial momentum, then it might not be a huge factor. So I think the faster reset speed from the spring also negates any quicker typing from the fact that it requires more force to initially press the keys.
Take an extreme example where you put in 3 mx black springs in all the switches. Your fingers are strong enough to press it, but do you really think with such great force required to press it down, you'll still type faster?
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Reason 1, its linear-smooth, so it will spring back faster than Green or White
Reason 2, its Heavy spring, more force, again, faster than linear RED
I agree with what oneproduct said. Sure a heavier spring will allow it to reset faster, but it also requires more force on the keys before it even starts to move down. Your fingers are at rest when you start to press down on it, it has zero initial momentum to begin with. If you started accelerating your fingers a few inches above the keys to give it initial momentum, then it might not be a huge factor. So I think the faster reset speed from the spring also negates any quicker typing from the fact that it requires more force to initially press the keys.
Take an extreme example where you put in 3 mx black springs in all the switches. Your fingers are strong enough to press it, but do you really think with such great force required to press it down, you'll still type faster?
Hey Whitefire..
The force output capacity from one's fingers GREATLY exceeds the necessary force to depress the MX Black Spring.. Thus the difference between the maximum possible speed on the MX Black vs MX Red is negligible.
Just using my bathroom scale.. without wrist movement, My finger can tap out ~2lbs.. That's almost 1kg...
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Well, there are switches with stronger springs than MX black. Have a ball!
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Well, there are switches with stronger springs than MX black. Have a ball!
Which ones?
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I've found that I make many more mistakes on linears. I tried them for months, and just could never get used to them. As far as Cherry's go, I'm still fastest on browns, followed closely by blues and then finally reds and blacks.
I am the same as well. Just can't get used to red although i've used black for like 1 year. Still in love with the way brown feels. :D
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I've found that I make many more mistakes on linears. I tried them for months, and just could never get used to them. As far as Cherry's go, I'm still fastest on browns, followed closely by blues and then finally reds and blacks.
I am the same as well. Just can't get used to red although i've used black for like 1 year. Still in love with the way brown feels. :D
I like the clickity feel and all, but the discussion is what's Conducive for ultimate speed, not preference...
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I've found that I make many more mistakes on linears. I tried them for months, and just could never get used to them. As far as Cherry's go, I'm still fastest on browns, followed closely by blues and then finally reds and blacks.
I am the same as well. Just can't get used to red although i've used black for like 1 year. Still in love with the way brown feels. :D
I like the clickity feel and all, but the discussion is what's Conducive for ultimate speed, not preference...
well, since i am supporting his statements, i'd say brown is best for me to achieve ultimate speed compared to linear ones.
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Red is my Fav and fastest. Blue is just for the feel. Browns are like blues but faster.
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Enjoy your blacks.
TBH, I could care less whether I could theoretically get to 200+ wpm with blacks. I hate the way they feel, so why bother typing on something that doesn't make me happy?
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(http://imgur.com/tCp90.gif)
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Is there even any evidence that there is enough difference in spring rate and enough friction from the switch stem+housing+spring+contact leaf to make a real-world change in key return rate from stock springs of MX Red and Black; and, if there is, wouldn't a switch with lube+spring+travel distance mods blow both switch types out of the water?... :rolleyes:
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No, the heavy spring would NOT hinder your input speed, because the weight and power of your hand can more than enough overcome the force of the switch..
What your hands can't do is make the switch rebound faster....
And why not? You can make the switch rebound faster if you don't bottom out, i.e. don't press it so hard. Sure, you can overcome the force of a black's spring by pressing it harder, but then you're pushing the spring further down and it takes it longer to rebound. If you push it less hard it will have less distance to rebound from. So instead of slamming on the keys, dance across them. I have a hard time dancing across blacks because when I press lightly, sometimes I don't push down hard enough to activate the key.
Edit: just to add, I have soft, small hands :P
Edit #2!: Since you might say you can't control not bottoming out when typing quickly, if you can't you could use o-rings. If you're really hardcore enough to worry about the switch resetting being an issue, put enough material so that the switch can only go down to the activation point and no further. The second you let go, it will reset. Then this would favor lighter switches because you could press them down faster since same force vs less resistance = greater speed. Anyways, this is pretty silly to begin with. This is not what's going to suddenly let you jump from where you are to match precarious for example. It's more about little optimization tricks I'd imagine, and things like breaking convention and using the wrong finger to type keys when the right finger would already be busy pressing the previous letter.
OK, I must iterate for the 10th time.. IF YOU DON"T bottom out YOU WILL BE TYPING VERY SLOWLY....
Tap the table, can you tap it faster by stopping "exactly" at the top of the table,, OR can you tap it faster by hitting it nice and hard...
I specifically said that you can use o-rings to reduce the distance between activation and bottom. So you'll still bottom out, but it will be closer to the reset point as you bottom out on the o-ring instead of the switch housing. If you set up your o-rings just right (stack the required amount), the key will essentially reset instantly regardless of how powerful the spring is. There's at least one person here that uses double stacked o-rings as I recall, though likely for comfort/ergonomics/personal preference rather than for trying to reduce the distance between bottom and reset.
So you could have a light spring to make pressing the key down easier, bottom out at almost exactly the activation point thanks to o-rings and have the spring reset the switch almost immediately because of how close "bottom" is to the reset point.
Anyway I doubt that you or anyone will make a huge gain based on the fact that the spring resets faster for double letters alone. While you may gain on double letters slightly, there's far more potential to lose out on regular sequences because of either the black's increased force or the lack of tactility to help your brain. I don't think that tactility, even for proficient typists, is worthless. I imagine that typing with numb hands would slow you down.
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this thread is totes ridic
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MX Blacks are the worst for typing, and everyone knows it. Blues and/or Clears is where it's at...
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You ever notice how like, you'll type for only 2 or 3 hours on a Fujitsu Peerless, but then you'll walk outside your office and notice everyone wearing all these strange hats, and then it hits you that a dozen years have passed and everyone you know has moved on..?
Feels bad man.
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From what I read here, it mostly depends on the typer. For sure everyone can easily bottom out blacks, but some will find the "extra" strenght required to be annoying while typing. At the same time, someone with stronger hands will find it just right. So in the end the best switch depends on the user himself. For exemple, following the calculation of the fastest switch, the "fastest switch" would be the one with the greatest resistance. In that way, having a custom switch with super high resistance would be the best, but would be a hell to type on, so slower in the end.
As for tactility, I think it is the same. For some people, they just don't "focus" on this feeling, so it does not bother them if they lose it. For others, they react to it and not having it slows them down.
So in the end, it's all a personnal choice.
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From what I read here, it mostly depends on the typer. For sure everyone can easily bottom out blacks, but some will find the "extra" strenght required to be annoying while typing. At the same time, someone with stronger hands will find it just right. So in the end the best switch depends on the user himself. For exemple, following the calculation of the fastest switch, the "fastest switch" would be the one with the greatest resistance. In that way, having a custom switch with super high resistance would be the best, but would be a hell to type on, so slower in the end.
As for tactility, I think it is the same. For some people, they just don't "focus" on this feeling, so it does not bother them if they lose it. For others, they react to it and not having it slows them down.
So in the end, it's all a personnal choice.
You are right that the "resistance vs return speed" has a threshold relative to the strength capacity of one's hand..
However, the issue on "tactility", I say it "slows you down" because the mechanism that produces it takes longer to reset. That's all, I am not applying a "human" reactive element to it.
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I get a consistent 90 WPM on Browns and most of the time with reds as well, but it just feels less solid with the reds. I definitely have a higher percentage of typos with the reds. My favorite switch at this very moment (because it's always flipping between red, BS and brown) would be Browns. I don't think the user can consciously pick up the tactility --- the bump helps your Muscle Memory and may help you to visualize / predict your timing in a subconscious way. Small things DO make a big difference. In the beginning I thought browns were just silly, but I find now that I am able to go barely past that point where the brown switches "give" and quickly move onto the next key. So instead of 90WPM when I'm angry / excited with the reds, and 70WPM the rest of the time, I find with the browns I can get a consistent 90WPM.
About blues. I think they are fun to type on, and have a blues board, but wouldn't use it in any practical application. EVERY TIME I need to double tap a letter when typing, the second click does not click. My OCD will not allow me to type on something which clicks physically at a different time than when it actuates. I also usually have headphones in so audible feedback is of no use to me.
About blacks. I tried a Steelseries 7g last year and it just seems like the black springs are too heavy... not that my hands got worn out, but it just felt like I was exerting too much unnecessary force. I do NOT believe that a human being can possibly detect the key reset difference between a red spring and a black spring. They both pop back up Instantly. If you think you can tell..... It's a placebo affect. You can't hit a red switch, and then raise your finger fast enough to not be touching the plastic by the time the thing pops back up to default position. It is physically impossible.
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I get a consistent 90 WPM on Browns and most of the time with reds as well, but it just feels less solid with the reds. I definitely have a higher percentage of typos with the reds. My favorite switch at this very moment (because it's always flipping between red, BS and brown) would be Browns. I don't think the user can consciously pick up the tactility --- the bump helps your Muscle Memory and may help you to visualize / predict your timing in a subconscious way. Small things DO make a big difference. In the beginning I thought browns were just silly, but I find now that I am able to go barely past that point where the brown switches "give" and quickly move onto the next key. So instead of 90WPM when I'm angry / excited with the reds, and 70WPM the rest of the time, I find with the browns I can get a consistent 90WPM.
About blues. I think they are fun to type on, and have a blues board, but wouldn't use it in any practical application. EVERY TIME I need to double tap a letter when typing, the second click does not click. My OCD will not allow me to type on something which clicks physically at a different time than when it actuates. I also usually have headphones in so audible feedback is of no use to me.
About blacks. I tried a Steelseries 7g last year and it just seems like the black springs are too heavy... not that my hands got worn out, but it just felt like I was exerting too much unnecessary force. I do NOT believe that a human being can possibly detect the key reset difference between a red spring and a black spring. They both pop back up Instantly. If you think you can tell..... It's a placebo affect. You can't hit a red switch, and then raise your finger fast enough to not be touching the plastic by the time the thing pops back up to default position. It is physically impossible.
Hm.... this is possible. You may have debunked my theory...
Does ANYONE have a slow motion camera, or a camera with low resolution burst frame video feature...
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You are right that the "resistance vs return speed" has a threshold relative to the strength capacity of one's hand..
However, the issue on "tactility", I say it "slows you down" because the mechanism that produces it takes longer to reset. That's all, I am not applying a "human" reactive element to it.
You still didn't provide a statistical analysis relative to an actual text sample to demonstrate that the user is actually waiting on a switch reset to type something, or whatever.
Or we could all just stop responding to this thread. That's looking like the best idea.
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You are right that the "resistance vs return speed" has a threshold relative to the strength capacity of one's hand..
However, the issue on "tactility", I say it "slows you down" because the mechanism that produces it takes longer to reset. That's all, I am not applying a "human" reactive element to it.
You still didn't provide a statistical analysis relative to an actual text sample to demonstrate that the user is actually waiting on a switch reset to type something, or whatever.
Or we could all just stop responding to this thread. That's looking like the best idea.
you realize how difficult it would be to come up with such numbers.
There are too numerous of interrupting factors..
But I already posted that the return time is DIRECTLY related to the Spring constant. Thus the higher spring constant WOULD return the key faster.
So regardless of any HUMAN factors, the TOOL is superior...
A high speed camera would help if anyone's got it...
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The only thing that I have seen in this thread so far is a bunch of people that don't know how to type on Mx Blacks.
You don't bottom out. The spring is stiff enough so that you can actuate the key without bottoming out, and then the key springs back up. You should be almost floating on the keys. It is extremely hard to do that with reds because they aren't as springy.
I'm not saying which switch is better, just that people need to adjust when they type on mx black switches.
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you realize how difficult it would be to come up with such numbers.
Yeah, you would have to actually take into account all of the variables playing into the system you're proposing as opposed to wildly theorizing and drawing conclusions without relevant data to substantiate them, choosing instead to fixate upon a singular aspect of said system, invoking confirmation bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias).
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Hm.... this is possible. You may have debunked my theory...
Does ANYONE have a slow motion camera, or a camera with low resolution burst frame video feature...
Do we even need a camera? If we use these two equations... (This equation gets distance from activation to rest rather than oscillation)
Kinetic energy = potential energy
1/2*m*v^2 = 1/2*k*x^2.
m*v^2=k*x^2
m/k=x^2/v^2
and...
distance = velocity*time.
x=vt
t=x/v
we get...
m/k=t^2
t=(m/k)^(1/2)
For red it is..
(0.0011kg/150N/m)^1/2=0.0027s
For black it is...
(0.0011kg/200N/m)^1/2=0.0023s
Stopping here we can conclude that there is a 0.0004s difference between red and black debunking that blacks reset faster.
If we want to figure out if our finger is even fast enough to react...
If we use 216wpm, which which is the fastest typing speed, it is 1080 keys per minute. Pressing one key(including getting to the key) takes 0.13 sec to travel 2mm from the release point of a key, 6.5cm maximum distance to get to a key(5 to b, 7to m, etc), and 2mm again to press down a key. The maximum velocity possible of a finger(assuming the fastest typer has the fastest finger) we get is 0.53m/s. So if the finger travelled at its maximum speed to travel form activating point to releasing, it takes 0.00377 sec, which is slower than the key(even though I used an insanely fast scenario for the finger).
SO. IF i did my calculations correctly, than...
1. Difference between black and red speed activating is negligible.
2. Your fingers aren't faster than the key.
3. You're not waiting on the switch
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tldr, but I belive you. I may have to look into whatever you are doing in your free time hehe.
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Hm.... this is possible. You may have debunked my theory...
Does ANYONE have a slow motion camera, or a camera with low resolution burst frame video feature...
Do we even need a camera? If we use these two equations... (This equation gets distance from activation to rest rather than oscillation)
Kinetic energy = potential energy
1/2*m*v^2 = 1/2*k*x^2.
m*v^2=k*x^2
m/k=x^2/v^2
and...
distance = velocity*time.
x=vt
t=x/v
we get...
m/k=t^2
t=(m/k)^(1/2)
For red it is..
(0.0011kg/150N/m)^1/2=0.0027s
For black it is...
(0.0011kg/200N/m)^1/2=0.0023s
Stopping here we can conclude that there is a 0.0004s difference between red and black debunking that blacks reset faster.
If we want to figure out if our finger is even fast enough to react...
If we use 216wpm, which which is the fastest typing speed, it is 1080 keys per minute. Pressing one key(including getting to the key) takes 0.13 sec to travel 2mm from the release point of a key, 6.5cm maximum distance to get to a key(5 to b, 7to m, etc), and 2mm again to press down a key. The maximum velocity possible of a finger(assuming the fastest typer has the fastest finger) we get is 0.53m/s. So if the finger travelled at its maximum speed to travel form activating point to releasing, it takes 0.00377 sec, which is slower than the key(even though I used an insanely fast scenario for the finger).
SO. IF i did my calculations correctly, than...
1. Difference between black and red speed activating is negligible.
2. Your fingers aren't faster than the key.
3. You're not waiting on the switch
PLEASE TELL ME YOU'RE A WOMAN SO I CAN FILL YOU WITH BABIES
GOD I DON'T EVEN WANT TO HAVE CHILDREN
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hahahahah...
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PLEASE TELL ME YOU'RE A WOMAN SO I CAN FILL YOU WITH BABIES
GOD I DON'T EVEN WANT TO HAVE CHILDREN
...................................................... sorry
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Hm.... this is possible. You may have debunked my theory...
Does ANYONE have a slow motion camera, or a camera with low resolution burst frame video feature...
Do we even need a camera? If we use these two equations... (This equation gets distance from activation to rest rather than oscillation)
Kinetic energy = potential energy
1/2*m*v^2 = 1/2*k*x^2.
m*v^2=k*x^2
m/k=x^2/v^2
and...
distance = velocity*time.
x=vt
t=x/v
we get...
m/k=t^2
t=(m/k)^(1/2)
For red it is..
(0.0011kg/150N/m)^1/2=0.0027s
For black it is...
(0.0011kg/200N/m)^1/2=0.0023s
Stopping here we can conclude that there is a 0.0004s difference between red and black debunking that blacks reset faster.
If we want to figure out if our finger is even fast enough to react...
If we use 216wpm, which which is the fastest typing speed, it is 1080 keys per minute. Pressing one key(including getting to the key) takes 0.13 sec to travel 2mm from the release point of a key, 6.5cm maximum distance to get to a key(5 to b, 7to m, etc), and 2mm again to press down a key. The maximum velocity possible of a finger(assuming the fastest typer has the fastest finger) we get is 0.53m/s. So if the finger travelled at its maximum speed to travel form activating point to releasing, it takes 0.00377 sec, which is slower than the key(even though I used an insanely fast scenario for the finger).
SO. IF i did my calculations correctly, than...
1. Difference between black and red speed activating is negligible.
2. Your fingers aren't faster than the key.
3. You're not waiting on the switch
/thread
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I think the OP may be on to something. I have actually found blacks at least even with the MX Blues while in typeracer. The largest thing though is that my accuracy is 5% better (going from 90% to 95%.) That being said, MX Blues are totally more fun to type on.
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I don't think you should chose a certain switch for typing speed or efficiency. You should chose it based on the overall feel of the switch and personal preference.
Plus, it's hard to prove that everyone types faster on a certain switch.
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i have plenty of 200+ wpm races on typeracer with browns
ultimately you need to choose whichever switch affords you the least distraction psychologically so you can focus on actually typing, mental overhead is enough to keep you out of the 200+ wpm space permanently
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I've got a number of MX black boards, and I primarily use them for typing.
I have a solution for the fatigue issue: make the board variably-weighted. I've done that on a couple by swapping out the springs on the keys under my pinkies for MX red springs. It's like the linear version of a Topre: it feels *just right*.
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I know those equations look good... but they ignore friction, which is a major loss of energy in the BLUES and Browns.. it's significant enough such that there is definitely MORE latency.
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Yeah... which is why I used them only for red and brown, which I think is negligible for these two right?
We could calculate the amount of friction for brown and blues though. The material inside was POM? I'll try to include friction later.
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If you move the key between neutral and actuation as fast as possible without taking a finger off of the key is not that keycap always in contact with the finger? Logically that would mean that the finger can not move faster than the spring brings the key to ready.
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If you move the key between neutral and actuation as fast as possible without taking a finger off of the key is not that keycap always in contact with the finger? Logically that would mean that the finger can not move faster than the spring brings the key to ready.
You know, I don't think anyone on this planet is going to have a problem with this. I mean, how fast would you have to type to possibly have a problem like that? Few thousand words per minute?
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troll thread
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troll thread
You registered just to say that? Troll.
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The more popular a word becomes and the more frequently it is used, the less it actually means.
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troll thread
You registered just to say that? Troll.
i've been registered for awhile
i just think blacks are terrible and it's funny someone is trying to talk them up
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As anectotal evidence:
The first mechanical switches I ever tried were blacks (my friend's Steelseries) and at that point the feel was so foreign that I couldn't even type a word without errors.
After a lot more exposure to typing on blues/browns, I find my fingers "get" the feel of mechanical switches but still make error as black feels unnatural in comparison with both.
I think if you took the "average person", blacks would be by far the worst typing switch for them.
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The more popular a word becomes and the more frequently it is used, the less it actually means.
Nazi!
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The more popular a word becomes and the more frequently it is used, the less it actually means.
Nazi!
These aren't the soups you're looking for.
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As anectotal evidence:
The first mechanical switches I ever tried were blacks (my friend's Steelseries) and at that point the feel was so foreign that I couldn't even type a word without errors.
After a lot more exposure to typing on blues/browns, I find my fingers "get" the feel of mechanical switches but still make error as black feels unnatural in comparison with both.
I think if you took the "average person", blacks would be by far the worst typing switch for them.
This! just got my first one, a filco with brown switches and after the first 5 minutes of using it, i was mistyping so much. I was ready to throw it out the window and apologize to my rubber dome keyboard for being so stupid. Now 3 days in, i freaking love how light the keys are. There's definitely a learning curve for the average rubber dome keyboard user. My dad has a black switch keyboard and i can attest to them feeling "unnatural". Thats not to say blacks dont have their advantages though.
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Blacks are good after you have used them for a while. You get used to them. You start pressing heavy. Then Blacks become the only switch.
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Buckling springs are the only switch.
Blacks feel like mashed potatoes.
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Blacks are linear though!
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Another reason MX black is awesome is because I use it. :cool:
MX black feels a bit light to me, and I'm looking for something stronger, like a keyboard with super blacks.
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Dark greys or light grey with Dark grey springs.
I am getting used to my blacks but I kinda don't want to just because I love my reds so much.
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Dark greys or light grey with Dark grey springs.
I am getting used to my blacks but I kinda don't want to just because I love my reds so much.
I'm lazy and don't feel like unsoldering the switches from my Filco and soldering new switches in. Does anyone make any keyboards with these already installed?
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Dark greys or light grey with Dark grey springs.
I am getting used to my blacks but I kinda don't want to just because I love my reds so much.
I'm lazy and don't feel like unsoldering the switches from my Filco and soldering new switches in. Does anyone make any keyboards with these already installed?
there's a ducky with grays coming out soon
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Dark greys or light grey with Dark grey springs.
I am getting used to my blacks but I kinda don't want to just because I love my reds so much.
I'm lazy and don't feel like unsoldering the switches from my Filco and soldering new switches in. Does anyone make any keyboards with these already installed?
there's a ducky with grays coming out soon
I can't remember, was it the linear or tactile grey they're using in those boards.
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You could buy a Cherry board(PBC mount) and just swap the -Grey springs.
Hmm, Blue or Brown stem with Grey spring anyone?
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Dark greys or light grey with Dark grey springs.
I am getting used to my blacks but I kinda don't want to just because I love my reds so much.
I'm lazy and don't feel like unsoldering the switches from my Filco and soldering new switches in. Does anyone make any keyboards with these already installed?
there's a ducky with grays coming out soon
I can't remember, was it the linear or tactile grey they're using in those boards.
didn't even know there were linear grays, but i'm assuming it's tactile.
too many damn switches.
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Blacks feel like mashed potatoes.
LOL haven't heard this one before (typing this on blacks at the moment).
there's a ducky with grays coming out soon
ORLY? And a CM QFR with grays following not long afterwards? ;)
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Blacks feel like mashed potatoes.
LOL haven't heard this one before (typing this on blacks at the moment).
there's a ducky with grays coming out soon
ORLY? And a CM QFR with grays following not long afterwards? ;)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37862.msg725764
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ORLY? And a CM QFR with grays following not long afterwards? ;)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37862.msg725764
No mention of a QFR there!?
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I know there's a QFR with greens out now, but that's just a blue switch with black springs.
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I know there's a QFR with greens out now, but that's just a blue switch with black springs.
Greens require about 1/3rd more force for activation than blacks. I actually ordered a QFR with greens to give Cherry MX switches another chance due to how crappy I found typing on blacks to be.
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Either way, My point isn't that you CAN"T be fast on brown, or blue, or red, or white..
My point is that BLACK has the BEST attributes suited for faster typing.
At 135 wpm you should be more concerned with your form than your switch type. 135wpm isn't even close to the realm of fast typing (170+). I've seen people break 190 wpm w/ all switch types.
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Either way, My point isn't that you CAN"T be fast on brown, or blue, or red, or white..
My point is that BLACK has the BEST attributes suited for faster typing.
At 135 wpm you should be more concerned with your form than your switch type. 135wpm isn't even close to the realm of fast typing (170+). I've seen people break 190 wpm w/ all switch types.
Preference, and whatever you are used to... Everyone's brains are wired differently... Everyone's muscle memory is different...
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At 135 wpm you should be more concerned with your form than your switch type. 135wpm isn't even close to the realm of fast typing (170+). I've seen people break 190 wpm w/ all switch types.
You sure have high standards.
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At 135 wpm you should be more concerned with your form than your switch type. 135wpm isn't even close to the realm of fast typing (170+). I've seen people break 190 wpm w/ all switch types.
You sure have high standards.
"An average professional typist types usually in speeds of 50 to 80 wpm, while some positions can require 80 to 95 (usually the minimum required for dispatch positions and other time-sensitive typing jobs), and some advanced typists work at speeds above 120 wpm." (Wikipedia)
170+ wpm? No biggie.
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At 135 wpm you should be more concerned with your form than your switch type. 135wpm isn't even close to the realm of fast typing (170+). I've seen people break 190 wpm w/ all switch types.
You sure have high standards.
"An average professional typist types usually in speeds of 50 to 80 wpm, while some positions can require 80 to 95 (usually the minimum required for dispatch positions and other time-sensitive typing jobs), and some advanced typists work at speeds above 120 wpm." (Wikipedia)
170+ wpm? No biggie.
VERY few people "require" such fast "transcription" speeds, because you certainly can't "personally" generate content to saturate that speed.
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At 135 wpm you should be more concerned with your form than your switch type. 135wpm isn't even close to the realm of fast typing (170+). I've seen people break 190 wpm w/ all switch types.
You sure have high standards.
"An average professional typist types usually in speeds of 50 to 80 wpm, while some positions can require 80 to 95 (usually the minimum required for dispatch positions and other time-sensitive typing jobs), and some advanced typists work at speeds above 120 wpm." (Wikipedia)
170+ wpm? No biggie.
VERY few people "require" such fast "transcription" speeds, because you certainly can't "personally" generate content to saturate that speed.
are you saying one cannot think more quickly than he or she types?
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There's a point where the speed at which you type outpaces the speed at which you think. I'd assume that it's probably different for everyone.
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There's a point where the speed at which you type outpaces the speed at which you think. I'd assume that it's probably different for everyone.
I guess most people are simple animals with no actual thoughts in their head. I can type as fast as anyone on Earth at my best, and I know for a fact I think far more quickly than I could ever translate it to words with a few movements of my hands. I mean, this entire statement appeared in my head instantaneously and I had to spend a few seconds typing it.
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There's a point where the speed at which you type outpaces the speed at which you think. I'd assume that it's probably different for everyone.
I guess most people are simple animals with no actual thoughts in their head. I can type as fast as anyone on Earth at my best, and I know for a fact I think far more quickly than I could ever translate it to words with a few movements of my hands. I mean, this entire statement appeared in my head instantaneously and I had to spend a few seconds typing it.
Heh. I generally do OK on intelligence tests, and spend a lot more time thinking than typing... choosing words... choosing what not to say. I type 60wpm on membrane, and in no way feel that it limits my productivity. I'm trying to switch to Colemak, however, and 15wpm is definitely too slow!
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It depends on what you are typing. Generally the longer it takes to think of, the longer it will take to type. Think executive summary for a 500 page research paper versus rambling about how much you love or hate keyboard switches.
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170WPM is bloody pacey. I do feel a lot slower on a membrane keyboard.
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Planning things out does take a while. Not all of us are strong in literature
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There's a point where the speed at which you type outpaces the speed at which you think. I'd assume that it's probably different for everyone.
So that's why my typing speed is only 3 WPM! :)
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really sean wrona used it,any link ensure that ;D
I know sean wrona has DAS Pro w/ brown
and special again blacks is first switch of cherry :) though several changes ^-^
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I did a few tests a while ago with Brown (103WPM), Black (106WPM), and Matias Quiet (104WPM) switches. A marginal difference, but I was indeed fastest on Black switches. I still don't like the feel. I'll take a slight decrease in speed over tactility.
I should drag out the Model M and see what I get on that...
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I did a few tests a while ago with Brown (103WPM), Black (106WPM), and Matias Quiet (104WPM) switches. A marginal difference, but I was indeed fastest on Black switches. I still don't like the feel. I'll take a slight decrease in speed over tactility.
I should drag out the Model M and see what I get on that...
You mean "*and* tactility"?
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And what about 55g Topre they are fast for typing about as fast as MX blacks for me.
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Holy Necro Batman
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Holy Necro Batman
couldn't have said it any better :thumb:
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You mean "*and* tactility"?
Oops, yeah.
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Holy Necro Batman
couldn't have said it any better :thumb:
Actually this thread was last touched earlier this year. That's something, at least. Someone recently bumped threads from 2010!
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Some of us are more patient. A few years is nothing for a conversation.
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You could argue that having a heavier spring makes it worse since you need to apply more force to activate the switch which could instead be used to start moving to press the next key. Also, if you just pushed the switch to the activation point rather than the bottom, the power of the spring wouldn't matter because it would reset instantly.
No, the heavy spring would NOT hinder your input speed, because the weight and power of your hand can more than enough overcome the force of the switch..
What your hands can't do is make the switch rebound faster....
I'm kind of curious about the actual numbers behind that principle. Would you be able to do them for all switch types relative to a certain text sample to demonstrate how certain switches would allow you to type it faster?
Either way, My point isn't that you CAN"T be fast on brown, or blue, or red, or white..
I guess it was all a dream.
Uhm.....
T = 2*pi*sqrt(m/k)
T is time
k is the Spring constant
Black has "higher" spring constant, 200 Newton/Meter
Red has "lower" spring constant, 150 Newton/Meter
We actually only need to look at that equation alone... no numbers needed
K is the spring constant.. If you INCREASE K, T will decrease..
T is the time per oscillation.. If this time decreases, it means the cycle was completed in LESS TIME, thus it rebounded FASTER.
Only relevant for the key release...
Cancelled out by applying the formula reverse for pressing the key, eh?
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... If this time decreases, it means the cycle was completed in LESS TIME, thus it rebounded FASTER.
Only relevant for the key release...
Cancelled out by applying the formula reverse for pressing the key, eh?
This... plus some of us can type without bottoming out the keys by using tactile keys with soft springs like browns.
Which means we can press them faster to the actuation point, feel when they actuate and release them = fastest possible actuation.
;D
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...And I've come to the conclusion that MX - Black has the best attributes.
Couldn't agree more! I love my reds 'n' browns, but for serious typing it's blacks all the way, in my book.
If speed is your goal, you want a switch that you won't tend to bottom out. Because of blacks' increasing resistance, they're the easiest to actuate without bottoming.
Topre is also out of the running because it is also slow for double tap letters.
Yeah, but they sure feel good. Many of us here are into keyboard esoterica, not just efficiency, and thus we type for pleasure as well as speed. My Topre keyboard isn't the fastest, but that's not the point of it, I think. I can type on it to restore my love of typing.
Keyboards are like people. If you need to do things fast, you call efficient people. If you just want to enjoy hanging out, you call the people with whom you enjoy hanging out. It depends on your goal.
P.S.: Guys, please don't give me a hard time about replying to an old topic. Just ask a quantum physicist: Time is an illusion. ;?)
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Yeah, after using all the switches, I think I've come to the same conclusion.
Blacks are the best for typing.
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...And I've come to the conclusion that MX - Black has the best attributes.
If speed is your goal, you want a switch that you won't tend to bottom out. Because of blacks' increasing resistance, they're the easiest to actuate without bottoming out. It just makes sense.
I don't get this. Don't you have to bottom out with blacks? They are linear, there is no increasing resistance.
What you describe reminds me of MX clears which are the best MX switch.
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Reason 3, Sean Wrona uses it. ;)
i don't know why you would want to be like sean wronas ever but ok
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Reason 3, Sean Wrona uses it. ;)
i don't know why you would want to be like sean wronas ever but ok
In case no one knows TP's threads are usually just trolling.
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I don't get this. Don't you have to bottom out with blacks? They are linear, there is no increasing resistance.
What you describe reminds me of MX clears which are the best MX switch.
I think Blacks does increase resistance up to 80cn until it reaches to the bottom, Clears may have up to 120cn. I can agree on the point that Black is the easiest to actuate without bottoming out as ander said. Clears is a bit lighter than Black when it comes to the actuation point (50cn vs 60cn) but for me, a strong tactile of Clears somehow slow down the typing speed.
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I don't get this. Don't you have to bottom out with blacks? They are linear, there is no increasing resistance.
What you describe reminds me of MX clears which are the best MX switch.
I think Blacks does increase resistance up to 80cn until it reaches to the bottom, Clears may have up to 120cn. I can agree on the point that Black is the easiest to actuate without bottoming out as ander said. Clears is a bit lighter than Black when it comes to the actuation point (50cn vs 60cn) but for me, a strong tactile of Clears somehow slow down the typing speed.
I need to get my board with blacks out again and try to not bottom out.
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Ultimate Speed words in italics more bold words
Ultimate Speed for emphasis
Opinions stated as fact.
*that's how I read the OP*
Spring constants aside, which only apply to the return assuming your finger is completely off the the keycap, the whole idea of an ultimate switch is retarded.
User technique and style will dictate which allows for the fastest typing experience for each individual. As had been pointed out, many rely on tactile feedback and that isn't wrong, it's just different. This is coming from someone ordering black switches because he thinks they will written best for him.
Declaring one thing as the ultimate or beat based on personal opinion is arrogant and ignorant.
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I still reckon light tactile switches are best for top speed typing, especially with trampolines installed. Actually, I would say that lubed ML switches with trampolines are fastest, due to the combination of short throw, nice rebound from the trampolines, tactility to let your subconcious know the switch has actuated which allow you to already stop accelerating the switch and start pulling your finger up sooner (although you'll still most likely bottom out on most high speed hits).
Acceleration is directly calculated from the force applied, velocity can be derived from that and position derived from that, but when you're talking about a few mm, the fingers are the slowest reacting component and the spring force on pressing has more slowing effect than the rebound, so lighter springs are better for speed. If you react instantly to the tactile bump your finger has built up some decent downward speed and even with the upward acceleration applied, the finger will still be moving downward until you've been able to overcome the momentum.
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Why do stock black MX switches feel gritty and gross? Explain that one keyboard Illuminati.
Also why does Ripster keep making puppet accounts just to necro old threads?
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Why do stock black MX switches feel gritty and gross? Explain that one keyboard Illuminati.
Also why does Ripster keep making puppet accounts just to necro old threads?
I have never experienced any gritty MX switches.
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Why do stock black MX switches feel gritty and gross? Explain that one keyboard Illuminati.
Also why does Ripster keep making puppet accounts just to necro old threads?
Mold lines on the sliders. Poorer quality control and too-fast production means scratchier switches than "vintage".
I can't answer the second question, though.
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I have experienced gritty feeling MX switches, but not always blacks. It's more noticeable with linears, of course, but every MX switch is susceptible to grittiness when new. I assume it has to do with the molding process.
I love linears, then tactile, and can't stand clicky at all.
For linear switches, 65-68g Korean springs with a broken-in black or red stem is the best combination. Then stock blacks, then stock reds.
I've ordered some Gateron blacks, since they are supposedly a smoother, softer black. We shall see.
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I have experienced gritty feeling MX switches, but not always blacks. It's more noticeable with linears, of course, but every MX switch is susceptible to grittiness when new. I assume it has to do with the molding process.
I love linears, then tactile, and can't stand clicky at all.
For linear switches, 65-68g Korean springs with a broken-in black or red stem is the best combination. Then stock blacks, then stock reds.
I've ordered some Gateron blacks, since they are supposedly a smoother, softer black. We shall see.
I have the same taste in MX switches as you do apparently. Please let me know how Gaterons are, as I may want to use them in the future.
Speaking about blacks, I'm debating on whether or not I should get 60g springs for my vintage blacks.
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It may be newer manufacturing techniques that leave the switch feeling gritty to my fingers when pressed slowly, but I have only encountered this phenomenon on blacks and browns. It may be the dye in the plastic ever so slightly changes how they turn out, but it does go away after a few months of consistent use. Haven't tried vintage blacks so I cannot say if they suffer from the same gritty feel, or if new vintage blacks would have the same issue.
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I actually agree with this to some extent. Spring force is a factor in quickly resetting the switch. The usefulness of tactility is subjective. I drum with my fingers constantly so I tend to HULK SMASH the keys when I type, bottoming out regardless of what switch type I'm working with. That makes "clicky" types pointless (and annoying) for me, so I'm more comfortable with linear and tactile. I still need to try an o-ring mod...
Saying that any one switch is best is a quick way to stick your foot in your mouth. But sensational threads get more posts so I guess this one is working as intended. :rolleyes:
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This is quite an old thread to have been resurrected.
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I don't get this. Don't you have to bottom out with blacks? They are linear, there is no increasing resistance...
As Cherry MX's actuate about halfway through their travel, no, I don't see why anyone would need to bottom out on any Cherry switches. And if I understand typing physics, not bottoming out means you can type that much faster because you're not moving keys farther than you have to, or having to absorb the force of rebounding.
That said, it require quite a light, sensitive touch to avoid bottoming out on the lighter Cherrys. I doubt most people could do it. I sure can't, unless I slow way down, which defeats the purpose.
It may seem like a contradiction to claim that one could type faster and more comfortably on a stiffer switch like Black. But I agree with the OP because, to me at least, Blacks represent the best tradeoff between actuation force and the amount of resistance that makes it practical to type without bottoming out. Does that make sense?
What you describe reminds me of MX clears which are the best MX switch.
Ha ha! I haven't had the pleasure, but liking Blacks as much as I do, I can understand your fondness. Would you say they feel similar to buckling springs, which are also pretty stiff, but obviously have their advantages too?
Why do stock black MX switches feel gritty and gross? Explain that one keyboard Illuminati...
Mold lines on the sliders. Poorer quality control and too-fast production means scratchier switches than "vintage".
I've never experienced anything remotely like that on Blacks. To me, they just feel like Reds that need a bit more push (with the advantage I've mentioned above). Were you by any chance using knockoff black-types rather than Cherrys? Also, if I were unused to Blacks and found them icky, I could see how my brain might interpret the unfamiliarity/unpleasantness in ways like you describe, even if those particular physics weren't actually present... Our minds have various ways of saying "I don't like this!"
Also why does Ripster keep making puppet accounts just to necro old threads?
If you mean me, sorry, I just started reading/posting here a couple of weeks ago.
Speaking about blacks, I'm debating on whether or not I should get 60g springs for my vintage blacks.
That's what I love about this forum—you guys really care about KBs!
Saying that any one switch is best is a quick way to stick your foot in your mouth. But sensational threads get more posts so I guess this one is working as intended. :rolleyes:
LOL! I don't know SpAmRaY too well, but I suspect he (she?) was just trying to get a rise out of us. To be fair, I'm sure we all have our ideas of what the "best" anything is; we just don't usually make a point of mentioning it (unless we want to start an argument—which can be entertaining, esp. if you live in the suburbs like I do, where there's not much else to do).
This is quite an old thread to have been resurrected.
I think you said something like that on the last older topic I replied to. Maybe I'm missing something—but dude, what is the big deal about posting to a topic that has been inactive for a while?
I'm new to this forum, so all of these topics are new to me. I saw some interesting points being made about something that interested me. As I wasn't here earlier, I posted my thoughts here now, rather than starting a new thread and trying to recap everything that was already here, just so it'd say "2015". I just thought it'd be more efficient.
Cherry MX Blacks are still made, and we're still buying and using them, so this is indeed a "current" topic. But geez, we discuss KBs made 30+ years ago—so is even that very important?
1986, 2013, 2015—they're just numbers. It obviously doesn't bother the other people who've joined in again here. I think most of us are more interested in talking switches than complaining about who posted what when.
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topre, just sayin'
:thumb:
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ALL the new MX switches have this quality control / speed of production issue (scratchy sliders), but it's most noticable on the tactile ones for some reason, probably something to do with the force of the contact leaf.
Clears have a "better" spring than Blacks for not bottoming out with. It has a higher spring constant, so although it starts out softer than a Black spring it increases its resistance more rapidly, so a little after the actuation point it's stiffer than a Black spring:
(http://www.knizefamily.net/images/pool/spring-rate-chart.jpg)
Each switch has a good use case, with different people liking different switches for different reasons, so yeah, it's pretty pointless to simply state that "X" switch is "best" (especially if you haven't tried them all). SpAmRaY knows this of course, so we all know he's jesting with us. Or is he? I also happen to think that Clears are the "best" MX switch and can prove it using psychology, physics and mathematics (and maybe some "Keyboard science!" for those feeling nostalgic) if you like. Doesn't mean you necessarily consider the factors / assumptions I would use to be valuable or valid for you, though.
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ALL the new MX switches have this quality control / speed of production issue (scratchy sliders), but it's most noticable on the tactile ones for some reason, probably something to do with the force of the contact leaf.
That's strange, because the SteelSeries 6Gv2 I bought two weeks ago has Blacks, and they're as smooth as a baby's butt... Could S.S. have put good ones in by mistake? :?)
Clears have a "better" spring than Blacks for not bottoming out with. It has a higher spring constant, so although it starts out softer than a Black spring it increases its resistance more rapidly, so a little after the actuation point it's stiffer than a Black spring...
Sounds great—I'd love to try 'em. I live in one of Canada's biggest cities, though, and I haven't seen a single Clear-switch board. If Clears are so great, why are they so rare?
Each switch has a good use case, with different people liking different switches for different reasons, so yeah, it's pretty pointless to simply state that "X" switch is "best"...
That's true of course. But I think there's a valid point to make here. In stores, very rarely do I see gaming KBs actually connected to computers. If they're out at all, they're lined up, unplugged, so people can compare them. And many people automatically assume that "lighter" means "faster". Without a chance to see how keys actuate, most people can't intuit what they're like to actually type on.
If more people had an opportunity to try Blacks connected, and could experience the exhilaration of keys with just enough "push" to let you type lightly and non-bottomingly, I think you'd see a lot more Blacks heading out the door.