Black - May be the most consistent-fastest switch for ultimate typing.

[TheSoulhunter]

You could argue that having a heavier spring makes it worse since you need to apply more force to activate the switch which could instead be used to start moving to press the next key. Also, if you just pushed the switch to the activation point rather than the bottom, the power of the spring wouldn't matter because it would reset instantly.

No, the heavy spring would NOT hinder your input speed, because the weight and power of your hand can more than enough overcome the force of the switch..

What your hands can't do is make the switch rebound faster....

I'm kind of curious about the actual numbers behind that principle.  Would you be able to do them for all switch types relative to a certain text sample to demonstrate how certain switches would allow you to type it faster?

Either way, My point isn't that you CAN"T be fast on brown, or blue, or red, or white..

I guess it was all a dream.

Uhm.....

T = 2*pi*sqrt(m/k)

T is time

k is the Spring constant

Black has "higher" spring constant, 200 Newton/Meter
Red has "lower" spring constant, 150 Newton/Meter

We actually only need to look at that equation alone... no numbers needed

K is the spring constant.. If you INCREASE K,   T will decrease..

T is the time per oscillation.. If this time decreases, it means the cycle was completed in LESS TIME, thus it rebounded FASTER.

Only relevant for the key release...
Cancelled out by applying the formula reverse for pressing the key, eh?

[Oobly]

... If this time decreases, it means the cycle was completed in LESS TIME, thus it rebounded FASTER.

Only relevant for the key release...
Cancelled out by applying the formula reverse for pressing the key, eh?

This... plus some of us can type without bottoming out the keys by using tactile keys with soft springs like browns.

Which means we can press them faster to the actuation point, feel when they actuate and release them = fastest possible actuation.

 

[ander]

...And I've come to the conclusion that MX - Black has the best attributes.

Couldn't agree more! I love my reds 'n' browns, but for serious typing it's blacks all the way, in my book.

If speed is your goal, you want a switch that you won't tend to bottom out. Because of blacks' increasing resistance, they're the easiest to actuate without bottoming.

Topre is also out of the running because it is also slow for double tap letters.

Yeah, but they sure feel good. Many of us here are into keyboard esoterica, not just efficiency, and thus we type for pleasure as well as speed. My Topre keyboard isn't the fastest, but that's not the point of it, I think. I can type on it to restore my love of typing.

Keyboards are like people. If you need to do things fast, you call efficient people. If you just want to enjoy hanging out, you call the people with whom you enjoy hanging out. It depends on your goal.

P.S.: Guys, please don't give me a hard time about replying to an old topic. Just ask a quantum physicist: Time is an illusion.  ;?)

[morpheus]

Yeah, after using all the switches, I think I've come to the same conclusion.

Blacks are the best for typing.

[SpAmRaY]

...And I've come to the conclusion that MX - Black has the best attributes.

If speed is your goal, you want a switch that you won't tend to bottom out. Because of blacks' increasing resistance, they're the easiest to actuate without bottoming out. It just makes sense.

I don't get this. Don't you have to bottom out with blacks? They are linear, there is no increasing resistance.

 What you describe reminds me of MX clears which are the best MX switch.

[Roibhilin]

Reason 3, Sean Wrona uses it. 

i don't know why you would want to be like sean wronas ever but ok

[SpAmRaY]

Reason 3, Sean Wrona uses it. 

i don't know why you would want to be like sean wronas ever but ok

In case no one knows TP's threads are usually just trolling.

[phoenix1234]

I don't get this. Don't you have to bottom out with blacks? They are linear, there is no increasing resistance.
 What you describe reminds me of MX clears which are the best MX switch.

I think Blacks does increase resistance up to 80cn until it reaches to the bottom, Clears may have up to 120cn. I can agree on the point that Black is the easiest to actuate without bottoming out as ander said. Clears is a bit lighter than Black when it comes to the actuation point (50cn vs 60cn) but for me, a strong tactile of Clears somehow slow down the typing speed.

[SpAmRaY]

I don't get this. Don't you have to bottom out with blacks? They are linear, there is no increasing resistance.
 What you describe reminds me of MX clears which are the best MX switch.

I think Blacks does increase resistance up to 80cn until it reaches to the bottom, Clears may have up to 120cn. I can agree on the point that Black is the easiest to actuate without bottoming out as ander said. Clears is a bit lighter than Black when it comes to the actuation point (50cn vs 60cn) but for me, a strong tactile of Clears somehow slow down the typing speed.

I need to get my board with blacks out again and try to not bottom out.

[neverused]

Ultimate Speed words in italics more bold words

Ultimate Speed for emphasis

Opinions stated as fact.

*that's how I read the OP*

Spring constants aside, which only apply to the return assuming your finger is completely off the the keycap, the whole idea of an ultimate switch is retarded.

User technique and style will dictate which allows for the fastest typing experience for each individual. As had been pointed out, many rely on tactile feedback and that isn't wrong, it's just different. This is coming from someone ordering black switches because he thinks they will written best for him. 

Declaring one thing as the ultimate or beat based on personal opinion is arrogant and ignorant.

[Oobly]

I still reckon light tactile switches are best for top speed typing, especially with trampolines installed. Actually, I would say that lubed ML switches with trampolines are fastest, due to the combination of short throw, nice rebound from the trampolines, tactility to let your subconcious know the switch has actuated which allow you to already stop accelerating the switch and start pulling your finger up sooner (although you'll still most likely bottom out on most high speed hits).

Acceleration is directly calculated from the force applied, velocity can be derived from that and position derived from that, but when you're talking about a few mm, the fingers are the slowest reacting component and the spring force on pressing has more slowing effect than the rebound, so lighter springs are better for speed. If you react instantly to the tactile bump your finger has built up some decent downward speed and even with the upward acceleration applied, the finger will still be moving downward until you've been able to overcome the momentum.

[noisyturtle]

Why do stock black MX switches feel gritty and gross? Explain that one keyboard Illuminati.

Also why does Ripster keep making puppet accounts just to necro old threads?

[SpAmRaY]

Why do stock black MX switches feel gritty and gross? Explain that one keyboard Illuminati.

Also why does Ripster keep making puppet accounts just to necro old threads?

I have never experienced any gritty MX switches.

[Oobly]

Why do stock black MX switches feel gritty and gross? Explain that one keyboard Illuminati.

Also why does Ripster keep making puppet accounts just to necro old threads?

Mold lines on the sliders. Poorer quality control and too-fast production means scratchier switches than "vintage".

I can't answer the second question, though.

[jdcarpe]

I have experienced gritty feeling MX switches, but not always blacks. It's more noticeable with linears, of course, but every MX switch is susceptible to grittiness when new. I assume it has to do with the molding process.

I love linears, then tactile, and can't stand clicky at all.

For linear switches, 65-68g Korean springs with a broken-in black or red stem is the best combination. Then stock blacks, then stock reds.

I've ordered some Gateron blacks, since they are supposedly a smoother, softer black. We shall see.

[Firebolt1914]

I have experienced gritty feeling MX switches, but not always blacks. It's more noticeable with linears, of course, but every MX switch is susceptible to grittiness when new. I assume it has to do with the molding process.

I love linears, then tactile, and can't stand clicky at all.

For linear switches, 65-68g Korean springs with a broken-in black or red stem is the best combination. Then stock blacks, then stock reds.

I've ordered some Gateron blacks, since they are supposedly a smoother, softer black. We shall see.

I have the same taste in MX switches as you do apparently. Please let me know how Gaterons are, as I may want to use them in the future.

Speaking about blacks, I'm debating on whether or not I should get 60g springs for my vintage blacks.

[noisyturtle]

It may be newer manufacturing techniques that leave the switch feeling gritty to my fingers when pressed slowly, but I have only encountered this phenomenon on blacks and browns. It may be the dye in the plastic ever so slightly changes how they turn out, but it does go away after a few months of consistent use. Haven't tried vintage blacks so I cannot say if they suffer from the same gritty feel, or if new vintage blacks would have the same issue.

[Data]

I actually agree with this to some extent.  Spring force is a factor in quickly resetting the switch.  The usefulness of tactility is subjective.  I drum with my fingers constantly so I tend to HULK SMASH the keys when I type, bottoming out regardless of what switch type I'm working with.  That makes "clicky" types pointless (and annoying) for me, so I'm more comfortable with linear and tactile.  I still need to try an o-ring mod...

Saying that any one switch is best is a quick way to stick your foot in your mouth.  But sensational threads get more posts so I guess this one is working as intended.   

[rowdy]

This is quite an old thread to have been resurrected.

[ander]

I don't get this. Don't you have to bottom out with blacks? They are linear, there is no increasing resistance...

As Cherry MX's actuate about halfway through their travel, no, I don't see why anyone would need to bottom out on any Cherry switches. And if I understand typing physics, not bottoming out means you can type that much faster because you're not moving keys farther than you have to, or having to absorb the force of rebounding.

That said, it require quite a light, sensitive touch to avoid bottoming out on the lighter Cherrys. I doubt most people could do it. I sure can't, unless I slow way down, which defeats the purpose.

It may seem like a contradiction to claim that one could type faster and more comfortably on a stiffer switch like Black. But I agree with the OP because, to me at least, Blacks represent the best tradeoff between actuation force and the amount of resistance that makes it practical to type without bottoming out. Does that make sense?

What you describe reminds me of MX clears which are the best MX switch.

Ha ha! I haven't had the pleasure, but liking Blacks as much as I do, I can understand your fondness. Would you say they feel similar to buckling springs, which are also pretty stiff, but obviously have their advantages too?

Why do stock black MX switches feel gritty and gross? Explain that one keyboard Illuminati...

Mold lines on the sliders. Poorer quality control and too-fast production means scratchier switches than "vintage".

I've never experienced anything remotely like that on Blacks.  To me, they just feel like Reds that need a bit more push (with the advantage I've mentioned above). Were you by any chance using knockoff black-types rather than Cherrys? Also, if I were unused to Blacks and found them icky, I could see how my brain might interpret the unfamiliarity/unpleasantness in ways like you describe, even if those particular physics weren't actually present... Our minds have various ways of saying "I don't like this!"

Also why does Ripster keep making puppet accounts just to necro old threads?

If you mean me, sorry, I just started reading/posting here a couple of weeks ago.

Speaking about blacks, I'm debating on whether or not I should get 60g springs for my vintage blacks.

That's what I love about this forum—you guys really care about KBs!

Saying that any one switch is best is a quick way to stick your foot in your mouth. But sensational threads get more posts so I guess this one is working as intended.

LOL! I don't know SpAmRaY too well, but I suspect he (she?) was just trying to get a rise out of us. To be fair, I'm sure we all have our ideas of what the "best" anything is; we just don't usually make a point of mentioning it (unless we want to start an argument—which can be entertaining, esp. if you live in the suburbs like I do, where there's not much else to do).

This is quite an old thread to have been resurrected.

I think you said something like that on the last older topic I replied to. Maybe I'm missing something—but dude, what is the big deal about posting to a topic that has been inactive for a while?

I'm new to this forum, so all of these topics are new to me. I saw some interesting points being made about something that interested me. As I wasn't here earlier, I posted my thoughts here now, rather than starting a new thread and trying to recap everything that was already here, just so it'd say "2015". I just thought it'd be more efficient.

Cherry MX Blacks are still made, and we're still buying and using them, so this is indeed a "current" topic. But geez, we discuss KBs made 30+ years ago—so is even that very important?

1986, 2013, 2015—they're just numbers. It obviously doesn't bother the other people who've joined in again here. I think most of us are more interested in talking switches than complaining about who posted what when.

[skuko]

topre, just sayin'

[Oobly]

ALL the new MX switches have this quality control / speed of production issue (scratchy sliders), but it's most noticable on the tactile ones for some reason, probably something to do with the force of the contact leaf.

Clears have a "better" spring than Blacks for not bottoming out with. It has a higher spring constant, so although it starts out softer than a Black spring it increases its resistance more rapidly, so a little after the actuation point it's stiffer than a Black spring:



Each switch has a good use case, with different people liking different switches for different reasons, so yeah, it's pretty pointless to simply state that "X" switch is "best" (especially if you haven't tried them all). SpAmRaY knows this of course, so we all know he's jesting with us. Or is he? I also happen to think that Clears are the "best" MX switch and can prove it using psychology, physics and mathematics (and maybe some "Keyboard science!" for those feeling nostalgic) if you like. Doesn't mean you necessarily consider the factors / assumptions I would use to be valuable or valid for you, though.

[ander]

ALL the new MX switches have this quality control / speed of production issue (scratchy sliders), but it's most noticable on the tactile ones for some reason, probably something to do with the force of the contact leaf.

That's strange, because the SteelSeries 6Gv2 I bought two weeks ago has Blacks, and they're as smooth as a baby's butt... Could S.S. have put good ones in by mistake?  :?)

Clears have a "better" spring than Blacks for not bottoming out with. It has a higher spring constant, so although it starts out softer than a Black spring it increases its resistance more rapidly, so a little after the actuation point it's stiffer than a Black spring...

Sounds great—I'd love to try 'em. I live in one of Canada's biggest cities, though, and I haven't seen a single Clear-switch board. If Clears are so great, why are they so rare?

Each switch has a good use case, with different people liking different switches for different reasons, so yeah, it's pretty pointless to simply state that "X" switch is "best"...

That's true of course. But I think there's a valid point to make here. In stores, very rarely do I see gaming KBs actually connected to computers. If they're out at all, they're lined up, unplugged, so people can compare them. And many people automatically assume that "lighter" means "faster". Without a chance to see how keys actuate, most people can't intuit what they're like to actually type on.

If more people had an opportunity to try Blacks connected, and could experience the exhilaration of keys with just enough "push" to let you type lightly and non-bottomingly, I think you'd see a lot more Blacks heading out the door.