Also to mention that 60g springs are often considered a little too light to use with clears, since the stem is used to a heavier spring, producing a "sticky" feeling. So 62g gives it that little bit of extra weight to make it feel nicer.
Also to mention that 60g springs are often considered a little too light to use with clears, since the stem is used to a heavier spring, producing a "sticky" feeling. So 62g gives it that little bit of extra weight to make it feel nicer.
True, but you can get away with 60g or even 55g if you lube the springs and stems. I lubed my clears and gold 62g springs two nights ago and they feel so much more amazing now and they're a lot quieter as well.
All of my ergo-clears use Cherry "light" (red/brown/blue) springs. They tend to be a bit sticky (especially keys with stabilizers), but lightly lubing them with Dupont Silicone Teflon fixes them. Looking forward to trying Krytox at some point.
I missed both gbs for 103 though :(
Where are you? It probably won't be for a little while, but I'll send you some of both after my move is complete. International first class shipping isn't really too bad.
That's so nice of you to offer :D. I'm in Singapore actually. If its not too much trouble for you, I'll absolutely like to buy some of both to try out the 'gold standard' in mx lubing, at your convenience. (There's no hurry at all, I don't look forward opening all my switches and lubing them again. Oh, its a chore, but so worth it, right?)
That's so nice of you to offer :D. I'm in Singapore actually. If its not too much trouble for you, I'll absolutely like to buy some of both to try out the 'gold standard' in mx lubing, at your convenience. (There's no hurry at all, I don't look forward opening all my switches and lubing them again. Oh, its a chore, but so worth it, right?)
Larken, i can probably sell you mine once i got mine from JD's GB. just pay me the cost. :)
That's so nice of you to offer :D. I'm in Singapore actually. If its not too much trouble for you, I'll absolutely like to buy some of both to try out the 'gold standard' in mx lubing, at your convenience. (There's no hurry at all, I don't look forward opening all my switches and lubing them again. Oh, its a chore, but so worth it, right?)
Larken, i can probably sell you mine once i got mine from JD's GB. just pay me the cost. :)
That's so nice of you to offer :D. I'm in Singapore actually. If its not too much trouble for you, I'll absolutely like to buy some of both to try out the 'gold standard' in mx lubing, at your convenience. (There's no hurry at all, I don't look forward opening all my switches and lubing them again. Oh, its a chore, but so worth it, right?)
Larken, i can probably sell you mine once i got mine from JD's GB. just pay me the cost. :)
Woot! Wish I had sent you more Victorinox oil to give him, but that'll be cheap and easy for me to get to him. Thanks and I probably shouldn't speak for Larken, but a half ounce of 103 should be enough.
just cant find the time to do the lubing.
I don't look forward opening all my switches and lubing them again. Oh, its a chore, but so worth it, right?
Not sure, but it's cheap on eBay - http://www.ebay.com/itm/Victorinox-Swiss-Army-Knife-FOOD-GRADE-KNIFE-OIL-5-ML-w-Applicator-/130879538069?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e79074395
I also heard good things about this lube. http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-Oz-Zoom-Spout-Clear-White-Sewing-Machine-Oil-Oiler-/290416248841?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item439e284809
I just got it and testing it.
I also heard good things about this lube. http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-Oz-Zoom-Spout-Clear-White-Sewing-Machine-Oil-Oiler-/290416248841?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item439e284809
I just got it and testing it.
For springs, sliders, or both??
I've seen sewing machine lube. They're generally pretty viscous. I can't imagine it being much better than victorinox, definitely won't be as good as the synthetic GPL103.
This is quickly becoming a lubing thread :/
Jawesome report! This clearly answers questions I've asked before which I only got unsatisfactory results. Can't wait to do my own tests when I get back. Thanks for this!
Edit: reworded post bc it came off the opposite of what I was trying to say lol
Okay, I just finished swapping springs for a bunch of clears with 55g LL springs from Calavera's GB and this thing I keep hearing about ergo clears sticking with light springs seems to be untrue or at least exaggerated a little. The 55g LL springs actuate at around 40-42g (lower than reds/browns/blues), and I did run into two switches that would stick, but this all seems like it has a lot more to do with the switch/stem and a lot less to do with the spring. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's a stem or leaf problem and it shouldn't be too difficult to have a super light ergo clear board, assuming you test your switches prior to soldering.
Anyway, just some food for thought and these things are lighter/have more bump than red/brown/blue springs imo. I can't wait to see what they feel like after I've lubed them :)
either way, the more important reasoning is this...
There's a bottom line spring force required to generate the resistance for a satisfying "click" feel,
I'm not super up with MX clears using 55 or even 60g springs because springs lose 5g of force over time.
And at 55 and below, it just doesn't feel like i'm pressing something. On a Blue switch, this is less important because it has the click sound, but on the clear, I feel like more force is necessary.
Wow, this is a long post.
For some reason, this is how my ergoclears sound like. (if anyone is interested - this is the mp3 file. listen for the initial click of (belonging to a logitech g9x) as a guide to see how loud your speakers should be). http://www.filedropper.com/dscf0478
When I put only oil inside that one center hole at the bottom, it greatly dampens the bottom-out noise. Of course it has to be high viscosity oil.
And if you use only oil on everything, it'll also reduce some of the noise from the keys popping back up.
I actually skipped the center holes for almost all my switches. I'll try that when I lube the other set. When you say high viscosity oil, are you using krytox 103 for that?
Just to be clear, by 'putting oil inside the center hole', you mean the way you brush a coat of oil into the opening (like in your lubing video), and not actually squeezing a drop of oil into the hole.
Okay, I just finished swapping springs for a bunch of clears with 55g LL springs from Calavera's GB and this thing I keep hearing about ergo clears sticking with light springs seems to be untrue or at least exaggerated a little. The 55g LL springs actuate at around 40-42g (lower than reds/browns/blues)...
If you're looking for light variants with a quick bump - you're out of luck with ergoclears. You could try ordering some korean 45g springs and swapping them into browns instead. The same theory should apply, if the korean 45gs are lighter than the default cherry 45gs. (please note I haven't done this mod myself yet (nor do I have any 45g springs at). Its an idea I plan to try in the future, so take this with a pinch of salt).
Has anyone tried the 45 G springs in the clears yet, does it come back up with no problem?
Has anyone tried the 45 G springs in the clears yet, does it come back up with no problem?
45g as in stock red/blue/brown springs? If so, I've had no problems but mine were lubed with Krytox mix.
Has anyone tried the 45 G springs in the clears yet, does it come back up with no problem?Bottom or actuation force?
no, the super special 45g that they sold out of from the GB, I think sherry also sells them now
Raspiguy, I'll tackle your question a little later. I'm not at home right now.Has anyone tried the 45 G springs in the clears yet, does it come back up with no problem?Bottom or actuation force?
Has anyone tried the 45 G springs in the clears yet, does it come back up with no problem?
Has anyone tried the 45 G springs in the clears yet, does it come back up with no problem?
I doubt theses would be very good. I sometimes have sticking issues with the 55g kirkle clears I have in my poker now.
a very special kind of ergo-clears
Kirkle Clears are very nice, however I still prefer my 62g #goldsprings.
a very special kind of ergo-clears
Both 45g and 45g(50g) from Calavera's GB are too light imo, lubed or not. 50g LL, which actuate at around 40-42g, are what I'll be using for my GH60.
PS - raspiguy, this should clear up some of the confusion. There is no 55g LL, meaning I made a typo.Show Image(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/06/10/a5eqytej.jpg)
Generally Korean modders don't recommend anything lower than 50g for clears. Anything above that and you should be clear, no pun intended. ;)
that's a little disappointing, though not unexpected. thanks for trying it, Jocelyn.
that's a little disappointing, though not unexpected. thanks for trying it, Jocelyn.
WFD only sent me three of each and while there isn't any sticking or reset problems, I don't like how it feels. It's like a big huge mountain of a bump on the way down :)
Testing actuation with linear switches are ok, but like Larken mentioned, it's very hard to get accurate actuation with tactile switches. Especially using nickels is a terrible method for tactile switches because this method is a static standstill until you overcome the friction of the stem and inner rails of the switch. Right at the tactile part, there is more friction to overcome, so it'll require more nickels overcome the threshold. Under real typing conditions, no one stops right at the tactile bump, then start typing again.
#Vintageblacks?
Testing actuation with linear switches are ok, but like Larken mentioned, it's very hard to get accurate actuation with tactile switches. Especially using nickels is a terrible method for tactile switches because this method is a static standstill until you overcome the friction of the stem and inner rails of the switch. Right at the tactile part, there is more friction to overcome, so it'll require more nickels overcome the threshold. Under real typing conditions, no one stops right at the tactile bump, then start typing again.
Umm I agree. This is why I do it with linear stems as mentioned above. All of my nickel actuation tests have been done with black stems ;)
Both 45g and 45g(50g) from Calavera's GB are too light imo, lubed or not. 50g LL, which actuate at around 40-42g, are what I'll be using for my GH60.No worries on the typo. Didn't want you to think I hadn't read the entire thread -- I did see that photo earlier, but without the clarification on the rarity of actuation metrics in the spring references, I was still scratching my head at that wondering how anybody was supposed to discern stock-Cherry (act) vs Korean (btm). That and the frustration of not knowing 50g LL GB ~= Sherryton (50g) == Originative (50g). Should have done more searching, but I'm getting it now.
PS - raspiguy, this should clear up some of the confusion. There is no 55g LL, meaning I made a typo.
Its more the bump on the way up that bothers me on ergoclears. But I'll still probably try it anyway, once kbdmod restocks the 45gs. If all things fail, super light browns!I'm not gonna lie, between the first few posts following mine with nothing but two-digit references and then not getting something your first time posting back, I was feeling pretty dispirited... :-[ haha. But appreciate you coming back around and explaining as it really helped. A good lesson in 'keeping the faith'. That originative page was going to be my next helpless 'exhibit A' plea before you beat me to it and confirmed. For someone not realizing that aftermarket/Korean springs are all titled based on bottom-out force, "62g" is the only product listing that really sticks out.
@raspiguy, sorry I missed your post the first time. lack of coffee.
I agree about the springs labelling getting confusing at a certain point, but Jocelyn's posting of the pic from Furuya cleared it up pretty well.
To make things clear - pun unintended - all springs I'll be referring to would be korean springs based on bottom out (largely because the stock mx springs are already 'well documented', so to speak).
Calculating actuation is a iffy way to go about it, as the tactile bumps on mx stems does add force required to actuation (compared to linear stems). Actuation force with a clear stem would differ from that with a red stem. But in the contained topic that is ergoclears alone, I am thankful that someone (Jocelyn) took the trouble to measure actuation. Though I'd stick to the bottom out measurements in the picture for reference.
When I say 45g, I mean the 45gs in the picture, from korea. Not the cherry mx 45g springs, or any other variant.
The 45gs I'm planning on getting would be via a proxy, though it should be mentioned that kbdmod themselves doesn't have stock for these as of now. I notice originative has these in stock, so if you're interested, you could probably get it from there.
@Jocelyn - any chance of some nickel tests with the 45g springs? :D There's some hearsay that it actuates at 30g, if true, it would make for a very nice light touch switch.
Both 45g and 45g(50g) from Calavera's GB are too light imo, lubed or not. 50g LL, which actuate at around 40-42g, are what I'll be using for my GH60.No worries on the typo. Didn't want you to think I hadn't read the entire thread -- I did see that photo earlier, but without the clarification on the rarity of actuation metrics in the spring references, I was still scratching my head at that wondering how anybody was supposed to discern stock-Cherry (act) vs Korean (btm). That and the frustration of not knowing 50g LL GB ~= Sherryton (50g) == Originative (50g). Should have done more searching, but I'm getting it now.
PS - raspiguy, this should clear up some of the confusion. There is no 55g LL, meaning I made a typo.Its more the bump on the way up that bothers me on ergoclears. But I'll still probably try it anyway, once kbdmod restocks the 45gs. If all things fail, super light browns!I'm not gonna lie, between the first few posts following mine with nothing but two-digit references and then not getting something your first time posting back, I was feeling pretty dispirited... :-[ haha. But appreciate you coming back around and explaining as it really helped. A good lesson in 'keeping the faith'. That originative page was going to be my next helpless 'exhibit A' plea before you beat me to it and confirmed. For someone not realizing that aftermarket/Korean springs are all titled based on bottom-out force, "62g" is the only product listing that really sticks out.
@raspiguy, sorry I missed your post the first time. lack of coffee.
I agree about the springs labelling getting confusing at a certain point, but Jocelyn's posting of the pic from Furuya cleared it up pretty well.
To make things clear - pun unintended - all springs I'll be referring to would be korean springs based on bottom out (largely because the stock mx springs are already 'well documented', so to speak).
Calculating actuation is a iffy way to go about it, as the tactile bumps on mx stems does add force required to actuation (compared to linear stems). Actuation force with a clear stem would differ from that with a red stem. But in the contained topic that is ergoclears alone, I am thankful that someone (Jocelyn) took the trouble to measure actuation. Though I'd stick to the bottom out measurements in the picture for reference.
When I say 45g, I mean the 45gs in the picture, from korea. Not the cherry mx 45g springs, or any other variant.
The 45gs I'm planning on getting would be via a proxy, though it should be mentioned that kbdmod themselves doesn't have stock for these as of now. I notice originative has these in stock, so if you're interested, you could probably get it from there.
@Jocelyn - any chance of some nickel tests with the 45g springs? :D There's some hearsay that it actuates at 30g, if true, it would make for a very nice light touch switch.
Probably not 5g but some percent of initial stiffness. That would depend on material and coil shape.
don't for get they all lose 5g after a while.Yeah, I'm thinking that that (along with my complete lack of preparedness) is a good enough reason to maybe hold off on the sherryton 45gs for 'ultra-light' browns and instead stay on the lookout for the 50g LL springs coming back in stock.
don't for get they all lose 5g after a while.Yeah, I'm thinking that that (along with my complete lack of preparedness) is a good enough reason to maybe hold off on the sherryton 45gs for 'ultra-light' browns and instead stay on the lookout for the 50g LL springs coming back in stock.
I will say, though, that the 45gs could be an interesting ultra-light mod for blues. I've only ever used (stock) MX blues and browns extensively, and since I know that I highly prefer browns for extended typing (writing) sessions due to earlier fatigue experienced with the blues, blues might be a safer try / better match, for my tastes. Given the smaller tactile bump on the steam, I would also think the change for the action wouldn't be nearly as big of a factor as it apparently is for clears.
FWIW, I don't think originative ever carried the 50g LL springs, or ever will. Even kbdmod, where the springs are supposedly from in the first place, doesn't have 50g springs.Fair point -- I was just sort of assuming sherryton could occasionally access them / stock them up, given the range currently available on originative.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but those LL springs came from a korean gb. You gotta 'know somebody' to get your hands on those, so to speak. Or if anyone can point me in the direction where I can get some easily, I'd gladly be wrong :D
Don't think your Clear stems are supposed to feel like butter :rolleyes:
Don't think your Clear stems are supposed to feel like butter :rolleyes:
Don't think your Clear stems are supposed to feel like butter :rolleyes:
Tactile butter.
Wanted to bump this thread because it seemed a little buried, and was very helpful for me.
Also, Vespersaint, is this the old ergo-clear thread you were talking about?