Author Topic: Ergo-Clear questions...  (Read 34129 times)

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Offline kelske

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Ergo-Clear questions...
« on: Thu, 09 May 2013, 16:21:27 »
Hey dudes and dudettes,

Got a couple of questions on Ergo-clears that I'd like to find answers for (#lazyweb)..

Here's what I've read:
- Factory clear switches are 55g
- 'Ergo-Clears' are where you put a softer blue (50g), brown (45g) or red (45g) spring with a clear stem
- People also often reference 62g or 65g Ergo-Clears using 'Korean Springs'

Can someone clarify on the 2nd two points here? How are Korean Springs different from normal springs (if at all), and how can a weight *higher* than the standard spring (62/65 > 55) also qualify as an Ergo-clear? My understanding was that the bump is extra pronounced when using softer springs..

Cheers!
K
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Offline Sifo

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #1 on: Thu, 09 May 2013, 16:22:56 »
Koreans go by bottom out force, ergo-clear and factory clear that you have listed is actuation force. Bottom out force of red/blue/brown is 60g.
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Offline Jocelyn

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #2 on: Thu, 09 May 2013, 16:25:17 »
Sifo covered it all :)

Offline Sifo

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 09 May 2013, 16:26:39 »
Also to mention that 60g springs are often considered a little too light to use with clears, since the stem is used to a heavier spring, producing a "sticky" feeling. So 62g gives it that little bit of extra weight to make it feel nicer.
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Offline boost

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 09 May 2013, 16:28:22 »
55g(korean springs) to MX red/blue/browns are considered Ergo-Clears

MX blacks + clear stems are considered Panda-Clears
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Offline Jocelyn

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 09 May 2013, 16:31:04 »
Also to mention that 60g springs are often considered a little too light to use with clears, since the stem is used to a heavier spring, producing a "sticky" feeling. So 62g gives it that little bit of extra weight to make it feel nicer.

True, but you can get away with 60g or even 55g if you lube the springs and stems. I lubed my clears and gold 62g springs two nights ago and they feel so much more amazing now and they're a lot quieter as well.

Edit - I used Victorinox oil for springs and Krytox 103/205 for the stems.
« Last Edit: Thu, 09 May 2013, 16:32:42 by Jocelyn »

Offline Sifo

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 09 May 2013, 16:32:06 »
Also to mention that 60g springs are often considered a little too light to use with clears, since the stem is used to a heavier spring, producing a "sticky" feeling. So 62g gives it that little bit of extra weight to make it feel nicer.

True, but you can get away with 60g or even 55g if you lube the springs and stems. I lubed my clears and gold 62g springs two nights ago and they feel so much more amazing now and they're a lot quieter as well.

Yep same exact set up here. Lubed clears + gold 62g is the god switch.
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Offline rknize

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #7 on: Thu, 09 May 2013, 16:45:17 »
All of my ergo-clears use Cherry "light" (red/brown/blue) springs.  They tend to be a bit sticky (especially keys with stabilizers), but lightly lubing them with Dupont Silicone Teflon fixes them.  Looking forward to trying Krytox at some point.

What ratio (by weight or volume) of 103 to 205 are folks using?  My 103 just got here today.
Russ

Offline Jocelyn

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #8 on: Thu, 09 May 2013, 16:46:18 »
1:1 ratio by weight

Offline Sifo

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #9 on: Thu, 09 May 2013, 16:46:41 »
I prefer less of the grease, other wise it gets too smooth for me :P
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Offline kelske

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #10 on: Thu, 09 May 2013, 17:01:33 »
Awesome.

Of course.. Actuation vs bottom out weight, that makes loads of sense.

Consider my questions answered! :D

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Offline nubbinator

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #11 on: Thu, 09 May 2013, 17:35:07 »
All of my ergo-clears use Cherry "light" (red/brown/blue) springs.  They tend to be a bit sticky (especially keys with stabilizers), but lightly lubing them with Dupont Silicone Teflon fixes them.  Looking forward to trying Krytox at some point.

I used Sherryton 62g springs(supposed to be Korean 62g springs, but there's some controversy with his springs) and a couple of 65g Korean springs in my Ergo Clears on my RK9000 with the Dupont Silicone Teflon.  The 62g were a little too light and some of the springs ping a little, but the 65g springs are perfect.  I may desolder it again, mod the plate, and lube with some Krytox I just recently got and see if it makes it better.  I'll be doing 67g Ergo Clears on my GH60.

Offline Larken

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #12 on: Thu, 09 May 2013, 23:00:56 »
I've gotten some krytox 205 in, and I'm not sure if its any better than my 7 dollars for 3oz tube of superlube.

I use sherryton's 55g, and they feel quite a bit stiffer than the default 60g springs from stock mx reds. 62g from him reduces the tactility too much for my liking, though it feels fine without having to lube the switches.

@rknize - I find that for modifiers, ergoclears of any kind (except for the 65g version) tend to stick a little. But its not because of spring strength or need for lubing, but rather the fact that those keys are held down instead of struck. As you don't release the button instantly on the upstroke for ctrl, alt, shift, there is a mid-point where it 'feels' like its sticking. I swapped my mods to browns instead to get rid of that issue.
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Offline Jocelyn

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #13 on: Thu, 09 May 2013, 23:04:45 »
Larken, what did you lube the springs with? Victorinox oil?

Edit - Also, did you use 205 by itself? I wouldn't think that'd be too good.
« Last Edit: Thu, 09 May 2013, 23:08:11 by Jocelyn »

Offline gameaholic

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #14 on: Thu, 09 May 2013, 23:12:14 »
Where to get the Gold 62g springs?  I've heard they are "springier" than the silver ones.
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Offline Sifo

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #15 on: Thu, 09 May 2013, 23:12:39 »
I believe they stopped making them... I don't really remember.
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Offline Larken

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #16 on: Thu, 09 May 2013, 23:32:00 »
@ jocelyn: I didn't manage to get victorinox oil (I'm not sure but it seems it's classified as hazardous material for international shipping, and trying to get it on ebay was basically 5 bucks for the oil, 36 for shipping. boggles the mind). Instead I substituted it with superlube oil instead.

http://www.amazon.com/Super-Lube-Syncolon-PTFE-viscosity/dp/B000BXOGHY/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1368159814&sr=8-4&keywords=superlube

I don't really have an issue with the springs though.

I did try 205 on its own, just to see if there's a difference against the grease version of superlube. Did that as both of them are greases. Not to say that 205 is bad on its own (as any lube in any switch does help to a certain extent), but I'm just not sure if the premium paid for it was worth it over the 3oz tube of superlube (which incidentally, is a lot of lube).

I missed both gbs for 103 though :(

I might actually try mixing 205 with the superlube oil and see what happens, though I might eventually have to get some 103 to compare against if I do that :D Then again, I'm pretty certain its hard to tell a huge difference as there's not easy or precise way to measure how effective each lube it except by feel. *grumbles*.
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Offline Jocelyn

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #17 on: Thu, 09 May 2013, 23:39:02 »
I missed both gbs for 103 though :(

Where are you? It probably won't be for a little while, but I'll send you some of both after my move is complete. International first class shipping isn't really too bad.

Offline TheQsanity

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #18 on: Thu, 09 May 2013, 23:44:54 »
Blue and Browns have the same spring or almost identical. Reds have a slighltly differnt spring than the other two. it is slightly lighter. :p
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Offline Larken

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #19 on: Thu, 09 May 2013, 23:53:59 »

Where are you? It probably won't be for a little while, but I'll send you some of both after my move is complete. International first class shipping isn't really too bad.

That's so nice of you to offer :D. I'm in Singapore actually. If its not too much trouble for you, I'll absolutely like to buy some of both to try out the 'gold standard' in mx lubing, at your convenience. (There's no hurry at all, I don't look forward opening all my switches and lubing them again. Oh, its a chore, but so worth it, right?)

@TheQsanity: I think blues, browns and reds all had the same spring. I believe the blues and browns are rated heavier due to the tactile bumps in the stems; the friction adds resistance.

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Offline TheQsanity

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #20 on: Fri, 10 May 2013, 00:15:39 »
Even without the bump. Put them all on red stems and you will feel a slight difference.
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Offline Sai

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #21 on: Fri, 10 May 2013, 00:20:20 »

That's so nice of you to offer :D. I'm in Singapore actually. If its not too much trouble for you, I'll absolutely like to buy some of both to try out the 'gold standard' in mx lubing, at your convenience. (There's no hurry at all, I don't look forward opening all my switches and lubing them again. Oh, its a chore, but so worth it, right?)


Larken, i can probably sell you mine once i got mine from JD's GB. just pay me the cost. :)
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Offline Jocelyn

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #22 on: Fri, 10 May 2013, 00:26:36 »

That's so nice of you to offer :D. I'm in Singapore actually. If its not too much trouble for you, I'll absolutely like to buy some of both to try out the 'gold standard' in mx lubing, at your convenience. (There's no hurry at all, I don't look forward opening all my switches and lubing them again. Oh, its a chore, but so worth it, right?)


Larken, i can probably sell you mine once i got mine from JD's GB. just pay me the cost. :)

Woot! Wish I had sent you more Victorinox oil to give him, but that'll be cheap and easy for me to get to him. Thanks and I probably shouldn't speak for Larken, but a half ounce of 103 should be enough.

Offline Larken

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #23 on: Fri, 10 May 2013, 00:29:10 »

That's so nice of you to offer :D. I'm in Singapore actually. If its not too much trouble for you, I'll absolutely like to buy some of both to try out the 'gold standard' in mx lubing, at your convenience. (There's no hurry at all, I don't look forward opening all my switches and lubing them again. Oh, its a chore, but so worth it, right?)


Larken, i can probably sell you mine once i got mine from JD's GB. just pay me the cost. :)

oh did you get an extra bottle? let's talk via pm.

@jocelyn, looks like I may be good on the krytox front :)
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Offline Sai

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #24 on: Fri, 10 May 2013, 00:39:51 »

That's so nice of you to offer :D. I'm in Singapore actually. If its not too much trouble for you, I'll absolutely like to buy some of both to try out the 'gold standard' in mx lubing, at your convenience. (There's no hurry at all, I don't look forward opening all my switches and lubing them again. Oh, its a chore, but so worth it, right?)


Larken, i can probably sell you mine once i got mine from JD's GB. just pay me the cost. :)

Woot! Wish I had sent you more Victorinox oil to give him, but that'll be cheap and easy for me to get to him. Thanks and I probably shouldn't speak for Larken, but a half ounce of 103 should be enough.

haha. i still have them untouched on my desk. just cant find the time to do the lubing.

And OP, you should start of with 205 since its easy to get them.
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Offline WhiteFireDragon

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #25 on: Fri, 10 May 2013, 03:20:17 »
just cant find the time to do the lubing.

There is always time. That depends on how you prioritize.

Shave a tad off forum-browsing time to do lube 10 switches a day, and you'll eventually get there


I don't look forward opening all my switches and lubing them again. Oh, its a chore, but so worth it, right?

If you're going to relube the same switches, make sure to clean all the old lube off first since they're not the same. Cleaning the stems will just take time, but cleaning inside the housing will be a *****. 99% isopropyl will work a lot better than the diluted stuff found in stores. I don't think the plastic is ABS, so acetone would work too (check to see if it's ABS first).

Offline Larken

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #26 on: Fri, 10 May 2013, 03:57:39 »
I'll probably work on the untouched ergodox kit you built for me with the 103/205 mixture and compare the feel between that vs. the superlube oil/ superlube grease mix I have on my other set.

If I feel a big improvement in feel with the krytox, I'll switch over to it in my main board. But you're right, just thinking about cleaning the housings is giving me nightmares. I don't think its actually possible to get it 100% off.

Just realized I derailed the topic. Apologies to the OP.

Just as a guideline, I think 62g (korean) springs are a nice middle ground for ergoclears, as it doesn't really need to be lubed (but highly recommended to do so), unless you're like me and want to go as light as possible (55g).

There's 50g and 45g springs around, but haven't heard much about how they would do with a clear stem. Probably sticks, but I'm just guessing.
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Offline VesperSAINT

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #27 on: Fri, 10 May 2013, 06:17:46 »
OO this thread has so much goodness! I can't wait to get my full-on Ergo-clear mod going next week or so! Will definitely have to document it with stock blue/brown/red spring and then 62g, Krytox 103/205, Victorinox, Universal TKL plate. I must experience first hand what this "sticking" issue is  :cool:

Offline rknize

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #28 on: Fri, 10 May 2013, 11:51:11 »
Does anyone know of a brick-and-mortar that would carry something like Victorinox?  I know I have seen it somewhere, but I can't think of where.
Russ

Offline Jocelyn

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Offline Jocelyn

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #31 on: Fri, 10 May 2013, 13:16:00 »

Offline WhiteFireDragon

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #32 on: Fri, 10 May 2013, 15:10:39 »
I've seen sewing machine lube. They're generally pretty viscous. I can't imagine it being much better than victorinox, definitely won't be as good as the synthetic GPL103.

This is quickly becoming a lubing thread :/

Offline gnubag

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #33 on: Fri, 10 May 2013, 15:51:19 »
I also heard good things about this lube. http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-Oz-Zoom-Spout-Clear-White-Sewing-Machine-Oil-Oiler-/290416248841?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item439e284809
I just got it and testing it.

For springs, sliders, or both??

i am using it on springs and clear/red stems.
I tried it on sliders, and it kills them because the oil is quite sticky.

I've seen sewing machine lube. They're generally pretty viscous. I can't imagine it being much better than victorinox, definitely won't be as good as the synthetic GPL103.

This is quickly becoming a lubing thread :/

well i am just trying it out. it is quite viscous but not to the point that it will just run off. it sticks quite well to springs and stays there. I haven't tried GPL103 but it comes very close to the victorinox oil.
I just bought it because of the price (ridiculous amount for keyboards but whatever).

maybe somebody can move that to the actual lubing thread.
« Last Edit: Fri, 10 May 2013, 15:54:50 by gnubag »

Offline kelske

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #34 on: Fri, 10 May 2013, 17:12:18 »
No problem at all for this thread moving this way - I had my questions answered and the rest for interesting reading  ;D
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Offline Larken

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #35 on: Fri, 10 May 2013, 23:52:46 »
I'm actually thinking of how to reduce lubing time, especially for springs. What does everyone think about emptying a bottle of victorinox into an bigger container, counting out the springs needed (or just take them out from the keyboard in question), and throwing them into the container.

Like a deep fry? You could probably dredge them out with a pair of tweezers and hang them out above the container for the oil to drip off (chicken wing imagery). I'm thinking it should work okay, considering we dip the springs totally into the oil anyway. Brushing them one by one is kinda a drag.

For sliders, I guess doing them properly is more or less required.
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Offline TheQsanity

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #36 on: Sun, 12 May 2013, 05:26:05 »
I bathe my switches in lube.
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Offline rknize

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #37 on: Sun, 12 May 2013, 10:08:56 »
Dunking the springs is how I would do it.
Russ

Offline Jocelyn

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #38 on: Sat, 18 May 2013, 13:42:04 »
Okay, I just finished swapping springs for a bunch of clears with 55g LL springs from Calavera's GB and this thing I keep hearing about ergo clears sticking with light springs seems to be untrue or at least exaggerated a little. The 55g LL springs actuate at around 40-42g (lower than reds/browns/blues), and I did run into two switches that would stick, but this all seems like it has a lot more to do with the switch/stem and a lot less to do with the spring. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's  a stem or leaf problem and it shouldn't be too difficult to have a super light ergo clear board, assuming you test your switches prior to soldering.

Anyway, just some food for thought and these things are lighter/have more bump than red/brown/blue springs imo. I can't wait to see what they feel like after I've lubed them :)

Offline VesperSAINT

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #39 on: Sat, 18 May 2013, 14:09:10 »
Jawesome report! This clearly answers questions I've asked before which I only got unsatisfactory results. Can't wait to do my own tests when I get back. Thanks for this!

Edit: reworded post bc it came off the opposite of what I was trying to say lol
« Last Edit: Sat, 18 May 2013, 14:25:55 by VesperSAINT »

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #40 on: Sat, 18 May 2013, 16:10:31 »
Jawesome report! This clearly answers questions I've asked before which I only got unsatisfactory results. Can't wait to do my own tests when I get back. Thanks for this!

Edit: reworded post bc it came off the opposite of what I was trying to say lol


either way, the more important reasoning is this...

There's a bottom line spring force required to generate the resistance for a satisfying "click" feel,

I'm not super up with MX clears using 55 or even 60g springs because springs lose 5g of force over time.

And at 55 and below, it just doesn't feel like i'm pressing something.   On a Blue switch, this is less important because it has the click sound, but on the clear, I feel like more force is necessary.

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #41 on: Sat, 18 May 2013, 16:36:18 »
Okay, I just finished swapping springs for a bunch of clears with 55g LL springs from Calavera's GB and this thing I keep hearing about ergo clears sticking with light springs seems to be untrue or at least exaggerated a little. The 55g LL springs actuate at around 40-42g (lower than reds/browns/blues), and I did run into two switches that would stick, but this all seems like it has a lot more to do with the switch/stem and a lot less to do with the spring. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's  a stem or leaf problem and it shouldn't be too difficult to have a super light ergo clear board, assuming you test your switches prior to soldering.

Anyway, just some food for thought and these things are lighter/have more bump than red/brown/blue springs imo. I can't wait to see what they feel like after I've lubed them :)

This really wants to make me try ergo-clears.

Offline Jocelyn

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #42 on: Sat, 18 May 2013, 21:52:54 »
either way, the more important reasoning is this...

There's a bottom line spring force required to generate the resistance for a satisfying "click" feel,

I'm not super up with MX clears using 55 or even 60g springs because springs lose 5g of force over time.

And at 55 and below, it just doesn't feel like i'm pressing something.   On a Blue switch, this is less important because it has the click sound, but on the clear, I feel like more force is necessary.

I agree with this but I think lubing will help to slow down the 5g loss you mentioned. I also only use boards with plates that have removable switch tops, so replacing the springs wouldn't be a problem.

Offline Larken

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #43 on: Mon, 20 May 2013, 02:04:02 »
And wow, tp4tissue is actually contributing seriously to a topic... I blinked and read that twice just to be sure.

I've been on the 55g versions for a few months (springs from sherryton, which should be the same as those from kbdmod), and not a single one of my switches have stuck (pressed down and refused to return). But I did also mention at that time that I thought the springs were actually stiffer than those from mx reds, though I must admit that the 5g loss due to usage didn't occur to me at all - at that time, the 55g springs were brand new and the springs from the reds had already seen more than a year of intensive use.

That said, I ended up using the 55gs in my ergodox although I wanted my ergo clears to be as light as possible (and also, I think there's a bias that I have that korean springs would be better than the default, because, well, its korean and aftermarket; silly really), and to this day, it still feels pretty stiff, but I haven't been on any other board for a while, so its hard to tell.

Jocelyn, the thing that bugs me about the 55g springs and clears is the part where you press down the key, and slowly releasing it with the finger still on the key. It has a 'wow-this-feel-weird/about-to-get-stuck' feeling, but it doesn't actually stick. It doesn't bother me when I'm typing, but it doesn't feel right when gaming. The 62g springs alleviate that problem, and probably could even make ergo clears be usable for gaming, but as you would know, the tactility difference is pretty obvious.

I'm trying to get some 45gs from kbdmod to try the ergo-clear mod on just for kicks. But I don't expect it to work out well at all.(that would likely be more than few months away before I can even get started).

For typists who like the tactility, 55g > 62g.

But not for gaming. 62gs have a nice and solid feel to them (not to mention being more compatible for gaming), but I was weaned on browns -> reds when I started the hobby, and I have a heavy preference for light switches. And besides, I don't really see the point of using ergo-clears for gaming when there's browns, reds, and blacks.

I'm actually starting to feel like I'm beating a dead horse on the topic on ergo-clears (but I think it's pretty apparent I have a deep-seated preference for this particular combination). My personal opinion on the mod so far -

If you don't like how ergo-clears feel - answer this question - did you lube it?

1. If no - then you haven't really tried ergoclears. (unlubed ergo-clears is kinda easy to dislike, especially if its unlubed and you've picked the lighter springs. Imo, trying them unlubed isn't a fair trial).

2. If yes - did you lube it properly? see wonderful video from WFD as a guide for 'properly' http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4EaKBfLB28U

3. If it was lubed properly and you still dislike it - then likely this switch isn't for you.

On a separate note - if swapping in a lighter spring on a mx clear switch increases tactility, perhaps those 45g korean springs (hopefully a lot lighter than the default mx 45gs) could be used on brown stems to the same effect - higher tactility with a even lower actuation force. I'm hoping to try that some day and see if I like them more than ergoclears.

Wow, this is a long post.
« Last Edit: Mon, 20 May 2013, 02:06:17 by Larken »
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Offline Jocelyn

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #44 on: Mon, 20 May 2013, 02:20:04 »
Wow, this is a long post.

lol it is, but it's a nice one and you are AMAZING! I never really put it together in my head like you just did, but totally agree with everything you said, especially the typing (55g) vs gaming (62g) part. I really really like my 62g springs for both, but I keep wanting more tactility while I'm typing (98% of what I do on a computer). I guess this means I'll follow my original accidentally original plan and keep my Poker w/62g (48-50g actuation) for gaming and use the GH60 w/50g LL (40-42g actuation) for typing. Thanks for providing your analysis Larken! I think it's spot on :)

I wasn't very scientific, being that I used coins lol, but these are the results I got using some springs from Calavera (Black stems + ten of each spring)
These numbers do not take into account the 1.3g weight of a Thick PBT keycap.

50g LL 40-42.5g
55g 5S 45-47.5g
Gold 62g (lubed) in my Poker 48-50g

Edit - I'm going to lube some 50g LL & 55 5S springs later this week, retest, and see what numbers I get.
« Last Edit: Mon, 20 May 2013, 02:30:11 by Jocelyn »

Offline VesperSAINT

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #45 on: Mon, 20 May 2013, 02:35:37 »
Wow, I find it awesome how deep you guys will go to find the right combination of parts to get the perfect feel of the ergo-clear switch! This only further excites me for my own project which will take place in two or three days, but I'll only be using the standard 45g, KBDmod 62g, and Korean GB 62g, which everyone has already done. The last 2 posts make me wish I had gotten myself a set of 55g too :P

Offline Larken

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #46 on: Mon, 20 May 2013, 02:38:28 »
I can't do nickel tests as I have no idea how heavy the coins in my country are, so I'm glad that you're taking the trouble to measure these :D.

I did try to measure them using the weights I had from my g9x and g5, but that was a little like playing mini Jenga and I gave up quick.

50g springs - really looking forward to your take on these, as these are really hard to source. I do imagine that sticking might really be a problem with these without lube though.

On a side note, what does LL and 5S stand for?

@Vespersaint,

it's more of a... I know this is the switch for me, but it's not quite there yet kinda-thing. I hope you enjoy the results of your ergo-clear mod as much as I am doing now.

Much of the credit should be given to WFD, who blazed the path with the 103/205 mixtures. Those aren't exactly cheap lubes I would order to play around.
« Last Edit: Mon, 20 May 2013, 03:00:25 by Larken »
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Filco Majestouch Brown | Ducky 1087 Brown | Cherry G80-3494 Reds | Unicomp Ultra Classics | Cherry G80-8113 Clears |

Offline Jocelyn

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #47 on: Mon, 20 May 2013, 02:55:11 »
Well it's very easy with coins here in the us :p
http://www.usmint.gov/about_the_mint/?action=coin_specifications

I believe LL and 5S were different groupbuys on KBDMania. They mean light, light light, medium, heavy , (Super? lol); not sure what S means lol. I also don't think the rated full compression weight of the springs in the picture below are necessarily accurate. For example, the 50 LL actuate at 40-42.5g unlubed, but this is only barely lighter actuation compared to red/brown/blue (~60g) springs. As I mentioned above, I prepped my clears for my GH60 and did run into two that would not reset, so I replaced them. That said, I still think it's a problem related to the stem and/or leaf. Lastly, I agree using unlubed springs that actuate around 40-42.5g would probably not be a good idea, unless of course you have a board/plate with removable switch tops, in which case you can simply replace the springs with heavier ones.

(Credit F u r u y á)

Offline Larken

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #48 on: Sat, 25 May 2013, 05:05:25 »
Ergo Clear variations - factors include:
1. weight of springs used
2. whether it's lubed -
   a. lubed with what.
   b. how much lubed was used.
   c. whether it was actually done properly.

I recently did a relube of my ergo clear mod with a cheap mixture (about 10 bucks combined) of superlube grease and oil - and instead of leaving on only a thin film on the stem, I slathered a thick layer onto the sliders - the difference this time round was that the previous lube job was done only with superlube grease; the thickness of the grease prevented me from applying liberal amounts onto the sliders, as it will jam the switch and make it sluggish. I came to the realization (doh!) that adding oil thins out the thick grease and makes it possible to apply more lube without gumming up the switch - which is why I decided to slather it on instead of maintain the same thin layer I did with just the grease alone.

The result: it actually made my ergo clears much quieter; I have another ergodox where the stems are only lubed with superlube grease to compare against, so I am pretty certain of the above. I won't comment on the smoothness as I do think that it’s likely subject to placebo effect.

Summary:
Ergo-clears with Superlube grease (thin film): Decent – definitely improves the switch.
Ergo-clears with Superlube grease and oil (about 2-3 times thicker than simply grease alone): Definitely quieter, and perhaps smoother. For some reason, this is how my ergoclears sound like. (if anyone is interested - this is the mp3 file. listen for the initial click of (belonging to a logitech g9x) as a guide to see how loud your speakers should be). http://www.filedropper.com/dscf0478

It may be a combination of the acrylic case, DSA retro keycaps, but to me it is pretty quiet, and even the bottoming out doesn't sound very *clacky*. I imagine it sounds very different on normal DCS caps and a metal plate.

I've tried a few switches with only Krytox 205 - and I find that the superlube oil and grease mixture to be more to my liking. Quite a kick in the pants when just 205 alone costs double of the Superlube mixture.

I'll report back again when I get my hands on some 103 - and lube the other ergodox I have.
« Last Edit: Sat, 25 May 2013, 05:10:00 by Larken »
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Offline Aranair

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Re: Ergo-Clear questions...
« Reply #49 on: Sat, 25 May 2013, 05:40:48 »
Wow, thats amazingly quiet.

Btw, Larken, do you happen to have 1 or 2 spare 55g/62g ergo clears that I can buy off you to try?:P

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Past      :  Poker 2 Brown | Black Widow Ultimate Blue | Filco TKL Brown