... as I can access every key without moving my hand off the homerow, much more efficient.
(snipped)
As for page down/page up... that's what the mouse scroll is for.
(snipped)
Sorry, I should've added that for the embedded number pad, I'm operating on the assumption that PC users need it for doing Alt-numberpad symbols.
It seems that the FC660C has most of the problems of 60% pretty much solved. The layout is pretty similar to our Mini Quiet Pro layout with the function keys removed.
Is the FC660C well regarded? Anything you don't like about it?
The spacebar of FC660 is a huge pain.
Anything you don't like about it?
The spacebar of FC660 is a huge pain.
Why pain?
Slap GAMER ... 1000hz ... Macro onNew! Shiny! Macro-giga-gamer, The keyboard with Red keys Both INSIDE and OUTSIDE!!!!
Most TKL boards tend to do well without an embedded numb pad. It's more of a rarity than an essential in 60, 75, and TKL boards.
Kind of off topic, but I've always wondered, how come I haven't seen a board with a numb pad to the left of the main block as opposed to the traditional position of to the right? Most people I've seen with dedicated numb pads place it there, and it makes sense because it allows you to keep your mouse closer to the keyboard while still giving you the benefit of a full numb pad.
Are they more popular with PC users than Mac? Or are they more a Linux thing?
Sorry, I should've added that for the embedded number pad, I'm operating on the assumption that PC users need it for doing Alt-numberpad symbols.
It seems that the FC660C has most of the problems of 60% pretty much solved. The layout is pretty similar to our Mini Quiet Pro layout with the function keys removed.
Is the FC660C well regarded? Anything you don't like about it?
If think the key words are:
- Minimalism
- Symmetry
- Status (which is a result of the above and the fact that it's expensive)
- Feelings: how it feels to the fingers and how it SOUNDS ("Thock")
Matias your TKL layout is pretty obviously the best non-split layout available. Symmetrical modifier key layout, compact, still has arrow cluster.I disagree. Not for the PC. The Home and End keys are missing. Under the Mac, the Home and End keys take you to the beginning and end of a document, but in PC text editors, the keys take you to the beginning and end of a line. I am a programmer under Linux and Windows, and I use these keys a lot.
An embedded numberpad is usually not essential in my opinion, but even less if you offer a dedicated one ;)If you have a mode for an embedded numpad, then the keys on the left side of the keyboard are normally unused.
Are they more popular with PC users than Mac? Or are they more a Linux thing?
I can't imagine that users of any keyboard format could be grouped by operating system usage. It's not uncommon nowadays for people to switch between PC, Linux or Mac daily (either virtually or between home and work). It seems to be mainly a space or portability concern. I like it because it's small enough to keep my desk as clutter-free as possible while not hampering productivity.
Matias please make an Alps version of the 60%. As someone who owns 4 Cherry MX 60% boards already i will buy #5 if it is made by you.
Are they more popular with PC users than Mac? Or are they more a Linux thing?
I can't imagine that users of any keyboard format could be grouped by operating system usage. It's not uncommon nowadays for people to switch between PC, Linux or Mac daily (either virtually or between home and work). It seems to be mainly a space or portability concern. I like it because it's small enough to keep my desk as clutter-free as possible while not hampering productivity.
I think that some users would find their preference in keyboard format dictacted by their OS. For example, I know a lot of linux users like having the control key where the caps lock key is, while that format choice may not be so popular with users of other OS's.
Ergonomics...
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It's the only way to have alpha cluster center to the screen without moving the mouse too far to the right!
Ergonomics...
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
It's the only way to have alpha cluster center to the screen without moving the mouse too far to the right!
do you mind if I use those images to help people realize what I'm trying to describe?
The FC660C is very well regarded. There was a thread recently about the two keyboards (only two) that people would recommend, and you could see it recommended quite often. Also, when someone asks for advice for a 60% keyboard, you see it mentioned every single time.
However, there is a keyboard out there that is also mentioned all the time and that is so well regarded that the manufacturer can basically put any price tag on it and people will keep purchasing it.
Of course, you know what I'm talking about: the HHKB.
To achieve such desirability, you cannot go with the FC660C form factor: the FC660C is larger than a 60%. The HHKB is a 60% that actually has unused space on it.
Now you should probably ask yourself what makes the HHKB so desirable, because that's the one to beat.
If think the key words are:
- Minimalism
- Symmetry
- Status (which is a result of the above and the fact that it's expensive)
- Feelings: how it feels to the fingers and how it SOUNDS ("Thock")
I would add
- a well-thought-out function layer and key layout
If you are looking for a mass-market 60% keyboard, maybe you can't go that route. Otherwise there may be an opportunity there.
Well... I'm not sure what you are after by asking these questions, but you certainly got our attention.
Matias please make an Alps version of the 60%. As someone who owns 4 Cherry MX 60% boards already i will buy #5 if it is made by you.
that's not good enough...
We'd need a pledge from ALL of GH for their trouble to be profitable...
And I also like FN-; for Home and FN-> for End which is not available in the Mac Book Air. Very useful to jump to the top or bottom of a forum thread.
I guess keep it small size, light and cheap and you will have a winner.
Matias please make an Alps version of the 60%. As someone who owns 4 Cherry MX 60% boards already i will buy #5 if it is made by you.
that's not good enough...
We'd need a pledge from ALL of GH for their trouble to be profitable...
BTW, I don't see the FILCO MiniLa getting much love here, despite being available wireless as well. Any particular reason?
The Minila has imo the same issue as the Pure Pro, all 75% boards, the FC660M and others: the lack of replacement keycaps. For a lot of us this hobby is a lot about modding and when you have a hard time making it look the way you want it to look that is a turnoff. This is probably also the reason why the Poker is so popular, it is very customizable and uses standard keycap sizes.
Ask Mashby :)
My primary reason for switching to the 60% form factor was because of the mouse/trackpad location. After becoming comfortable with the Apple BT keyboard, I found that having my trackpad right next to the keyboard helped with some shoulder issues I was having. When I made my way to the world of mechanical keyboards, I was looking for something akin to the Apple BT and the 60% was it.
I think one of the things that made the switch easier for me is that I've worked on laptops since the 90's, so I'm used to having to use the function keys. Once you become accustomed to the function layer, I don't find that I'm missing any keys.
Interesting.
Hypothetically, if you could have a mechanical keyboard that was exactly the same size and layout as the Apple BT keyboard, would you go for it? Or would you chop off the function keys to make it smaller?
Yes, that appears to be the main compromise with 60%. The arrow/navigation keys are in an Fn layer.
It doesn't sound like the absence of function keys are as much of a problem.
I noticed that you didn't mention the FILCO MiniLa. Are you also not a fan?
Another observation - if you must have Function layer, can you do it as compact as Noppoo Choc Mini. That's a nice form factor, but compared to the Poker or HHKB, it's pretty big.
Ultimately, I think the Poker so solidified the 60% form factor with cases, plates, etc. that it's hard to break out of that mold. Any community PCB, or 3rd party case has to support the mounts of the Poker/Pure for example. With that sandbox established, trying to cram more keys into a non-ANSI layout creates issues with replacement key caps, so it's hard to build an after market unless you're the vendor filling that market. ;D
If I'm not wrong, Matias primary customers are really Apple users. As such the function keys are really not that useful except to turn on brightness, mute, volume, dashboard, etc instead of being F1, F2, etc. I think all the more reason to lose the Function layer to keep the keyboard compact.
Well, we have a 60% design already done. It's better than the Poker/Pure. I'm just trying to decide whether or not to pull the trigger on it.Glad to know that Matias may provide a 60% keyboard.
Well, we have a 60% design already done. It's better than the Poker/Pure. I'm just trying to decide whether or not to pull the trigger on it.
Well, we have a 60% design already done. It's better than the Poker/Pure. I'm just trying to decide whether or not to pull the trigger on it.
One of the things that was not mentioned are USB ports. Are they important? They are there in HHKB (how the heck did they crammed in the two ports and maintained the form factor?) but not in Poker 2. I personally don't use them.
One of the things that was not mentioned are USB ports. Are they important? They are there in HHKB (how the heck did they crammed in the two ports and maintained the form factor?) but not in Poker 2. I personally don't use them.
I have yet to find a USB port in a keyboard that actually works, even for a USB flash drive (including the ones on HHKB).
One of the things that was not mentioned are USB ports. Are they important? They are there in HHKB (how the heck did they crammed in the two ports and maintained the form factor?) but not in Poker 2. I personally don't use them.
I have yet to find a USB port in a keyboard that actually works, even for a USB flash drive (including the ones on HHKB).
K60 worked just fine for that. But honestly, unless it's a headphone jack, I don't see the point in it too much; you're taking up a slot on the computer anyways.
BTW, I don't see the FILCO MiniLa getting much love here, despite being available wireless as well. Any particular reason?
The Minila has imo the same issue as the Pure Pro, all 75% boards, the FC660M and others: the lack of replacement keycaps. For a lot of us this hobby is a lot about modding and when you have a hard time making it look the way you want it to look that is a turnoff. This is probably also the reason why the Poker is so popular, it is very customizable and uses standard keycap sizes.
Quote from: MatiasWell, we have a 60% design already done. It's better than the Poker/Pure. I'm just trying to decide whether or not to pull the trigger on it.
As a bold-statement enthusiast, consider my interest piqued :)
To me, size and weight is the major reason for a 60%. I once took a TKL with me to the other side of Pacific Ocean, the size occupied too much precious space of my backpack and the weight consumed my energy on public transportation.
I think the other reason why the Minila hasn't done terribly well in terms of this forum (I don't know about general sales) is also the fact that the key placement is non standard. The bottom row is offset differently for the ZXCV, and a lot of the initial reviews stated that the offset took a bit of time getting used to, with some users having issues adapting.
The standardization of size and key placement makes it much easier for people to transition and find keys. This might be a more common factor as to why the Keycool 84 gets a bit more attention than the Noppoo at the 75% size (as well as cap modding), but interest returned to the Noppoo when they started using more standard sized modifiers.
I know for a fact that when I have the Noppoo in at work and someone might need to use my workstation for a short time, they get severely confused and move to another if possible (despite the main setup being identical to a full board, with arrows and modifiers on the right side).
Well, we have a 60% design already done. It's better than the Poker/Pure. I'm just trying to decide whether or not to pull the trigger on it.
But you cannot show it yet, or else I guess we would have already seen it?
60% are ONLY popular here and no where else in society. Accountants, Pharmacists, Receptionists, Marketing Research, Data Entry/Processing, Engineers, Teachers as such require a full size keyboard. Hence for Matias, stick with the majority out there instead of focusing on a tiny minority here on Geekhack.
Yeah Elrick is also right in a sense. I remember reading one time on the history at Apple. They had so many products and SKU under Scully leadership that when Jobs came back on, he sliced all the products away except one in each family.
Of course it has now grown but it's still very small and manageable - two Mac Airs, two MacBook Pro, a couple of iMac and two iPhones. Of course the colours of the iPod and now the iPhone 5c made it quite confusing to people. Matias seemed to have quite a big number of keyboard which can be daunting for the general public. Unless you plan to replace the Mini Quiet Pro with the 60% - well, it all depend on how well it attracts the general consumers.
Only reason I would consider a 60% is just for practicality of it being small/transportable.
..(truncated)
If think the key words are:
- Minimalism
- Symmetry
- Status (which is a result of the above and the fact that it's expensive)
- Feelings: how it feels to the fingers and how it SOUNDS ("Thock")
One of the things that was not mentioned are USB ports. Are they important? They are there in HHKB (how the heck did they crammed in the two ports and maintained the form factor?) but not in Poker 2. I personally don't use them.
I have yet to find a USB port in a keyboard that actually works, even for a USB flash drive (including the ones on HHKB).
..(truncated)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/suQytIEl.jpg)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/xKHNxV3.jpg)
I am considering a Leopold 660. I do not like its lack of symmetry but I think is a no so bad compromise to get a still small keyboard footprint with arrows, delete and AltGr always available. I hope this increases my productivity. It is incredible how these small details may impact the work flow while repeating the finger moves so many times per day. I am and industrial engineer and of course I was trained to avoid repetitive stresses when designing work stations, but I really understood it when the tension in my right wrist began to producing nerves compression.
Ergonomics:
Carpal syndrome gone with the Poker, also the stress in the right wrist diminished due to a more natural position of the right arm, because the small keyboard footprint allow the mouse to be closer to the center of the display, and the keyboard set.
Ultimately, I think the Poker so solidified the 60% form factor with cases, plates, etc. that it's hard to break out of that mold. Any community PCB, or 3rd party case has to support the mounts of the Poker/Pure for example. With that sandbox established, trying to cram more keys into a non-ANSI layout creates issues with replacement key caps, so it's hard to build an after market unless you're the vendor filling that market. ;D
Well, we have a 60% design already done. It's better than the Poker/Pure. I'm just trying to decide whether or not to pull the trigger on it.If I'm not wrong, Matias primary customers are really Apple users. As such the function keys are really not that useful except to turn on brightness, mute, volume, dashboard, etc instead of being F1, F2, etc. I think all the more reason to lose the Function layer to keep the keyboard compact.
Correct on all counts. The few Mac users that do use them as actual function keys are primarily users of macro software.
There is no AltGr at all on the Poker, so I don't even understand how you can use it at all to type European languages, unless you are on a Mac.
So, in another thread I asked how do one claimed that the Fn and arrow key is the best combo in HHKB because I find it difficult to use the right hand pinky to press Fn and the right hand index and middle fingers to press the arrow.
I am considering a Leopold 660. I do not like its lack of symmetry but I think is a no so bad compromise to get a still small keyboard footprint with arrows, delete and AltGr always available. I hope this increases my productivity. It is incredible how these small details may impact the work flow while repeating the finger moves so many times per day. I am and industrial engineer and of course I was trained to avoid repetitive stresses when designing work stations, but I really understood it when the tension in my right wrist began to producing nerves compression.
Beware that the FC660C is much heavier than the Poker. This will make a significant difference in your bag.
There is no AltGr at all on the Poker, so I don't even understand how you can use it at all to type European languages, unless you are on a Mac. Or maybe you are using the US international mode and compose accentuated characters with the single or back quote maybe?
One mod I have considered on my Poker was to physically exchange the Fn and CapsLock keys (by soldering wires) and then in software on the PC itself assign CapsLock to AltGr.
I personally like the minimalism and look of a 60% board.
Personally, I am a programmer and I do not use arrow keys and home/page up/F1-12/etc very often. So the lack of some keys is not a problem to me. The reason why I love 60% board is: a. perfect symmetry, and b. TKL boards have a huge part of the case exposed and I prefer 60% style, where keycaps take almost all of the surface.
Personally, I am a programmer and I do not use arrow keys and home/page up/F1-12/etc very often. So the lack of some keys is not a problem to me. The reason why I love 60% board is: a. perfect symmetry, and b. TKL boards have a huge part of the case exposed and I prefer 60% style, where keycaps take almost all of the surface.
Could you elaborate a bit more?
I'm a developer and I use home/end/page up/page down, a ton. I don't believe I could operate without them.
When I buy a laptop, I need to make sure that these keys are positioned efficiently or the computer will be practically unusable for me.
I also use arrow keys quite alot.
One of the things that was not mentioned are USB ports. Are they important? They are there in HHKB (how the heck did they crammed in the two ports and maintained the form factor?) but not in Poker 2. I personally don't use them.
I have yet to find a USB port in a keyboard that actually works, even for a USB flash drive (including the ones on HHKB).
They are not there on the HHKB JP version, for specifically what reason why PFU doesn't have them on JP version is completely beyond me (I can imagine one could easily fit a USB hub within the JP version). Also on a much smaller note the Lite2 does not have detachable USB cable for the keyboard to the computer (for instance). Unlike the Pro variants which allows one to easily detach the USB cable from the back of the keyboard. Lite2 does not offer that for instance.
Hasu has posted some really nice photos of the HHKB (non JP variant) internals, now if I were to go about quoting photos from Hasu's thread on TMK/Alternative firmware for HHKB:..(truncated)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/suQytIEl.jpg)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/xKHNxV3.jpg)
The first photo shows HHKB with USB hubs. You can see how they have it all on the same PCB as with the USB connector for the HHKB itself.
The latter photo is not the HHKB's own board but Hasu's TMK board. The reason why I posted the second photo was to show that there is a noticeable gap from the keyboard's PCB and the "controller" PCB. That's basically how PFU managed to squeeze the hubs in.
Now with that being mentioned, I guess having a USB hub on the keyboard is really just a matter of convenience. The cheap "multimedia" keyboard one sees these days often sport a USB hub, much like how modern computer monitors also sporting USB hub. To have USB hubs elsewhere besides the actual box (computer case) prevents one the need to reach to the computer to plug some USB device in for mostly trivial purposes. Whereever one sets their computer up as, peripherals sporting USB hubs are just value added bonuses.
As for a keyboard that has a USB hub that works, I have a Dell multimedia keyboard. It is not a 60% board but a full sized keyboard (most likely also not being mechanical as well) and the USB hub on it actually works. I have plugged in a USB flash drive which works (and obviously my computer could recognise and mount the device, etc). There was a youtube video about a guy using HHKB Pro2 with USB hubs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPnvrq-7_PE). He went on saying that he uses one for charging his iPod and the other to occasionally plug in his external hard drive (you can hear him mentioning it at 2:23).
I am going to stress again that I have the HHKB JP variant and there is no way for me to test the USB hub functionality as HHKB JP basically lacks just that.
Personally, I am a programmer and I do not use arrow keys and home/page up/F1-12/etc very often. So the lack of some keys is not a problem to me. The reason why I love 60% board is: a. perfect symmetry, and b. TKL boards have a huge part of the case exposed and I prefer 60% style, where keycaps take almost all of the surface.
Could you elaborate a bit more?
I'm a developer and I use home/end/page up/page down, a ton. I don't believe I could operate without them.
When I buy a laptop, I need to make sure that these keys are positioned efficiently or the computer will be practically unusable for me.
I also use arrow keys quite alot.
I'm also a developer and I barely use home/end/page up/page down. But I can see where you would use the arrow keys a lot unless your using Vim.
Personally, I am a programmer and I do not use ...
I'm a developer and I use...
I'm also a developer and I barely use...
Many of us on the forum are engineers and developers. You'd be hard pressed to find a more finicky group of people to deal with when it comes to anything computer/technology related.
The first manufacturer that provides out-of-the-box fully programmable layers and key combos will be the real hero. Until then, every product is going to fall short. When Matias said that his 60% is better than Poker/Pure, I hope he meant something along the lines of this or else it'll just be nitpicked to death by a bunch of overzealous jabronis :p
Okay, I think we've pretty much nailed down what everybody likes about 60%.
How about foldout legs? Are they necessary? Are they better left off?
Okay, I think we've pretty much nailed down what everybody likes about 60%.
How about foldout legs? Are they necessary? Are they better left off?
The AltGr option comes default if you select the appropriated option at the Control Panel (Windows 7 64 bits Ultimate):
Control Panel>Region and Language>Keyboards and Language>Change Keyboards>General>English (United States) - United States-International
I use it with my regular thinkpad keyboard and its Alt right key turns into AltGr. So it is not a hardware but a software option. And I have used it since Windows XP so this option should be there for ages.
I am considering a Leopold 660. I do not like its lack of symmetry but I think is a no so bad compromise to get a still small keyboard footprint with arrows, delete and AltGr always available. I hope this increases my productivity. It is incredible how these small details may impact the work flow while repeating the finger moves so many times per day. I am and industrial engineer and of course I was trained to avoid repetitive stresses when designing work stations, but I really understood it when the tension in my right wrist began to producing nerves compression.
Beware that the FC660C is much heavier than the Poker. This will make a significant difference in your bag.
There is no AltGr at all on the Poker, so I don't even understand how you can use it at all to type European languages, unless you are on a Mac. Or maybe you are using the US international mode and compose accentuated characters with the single or back quote maybe?
One mod I have considered on my Poker was to physically exchange the Fn and CapsLock keys (by soldering wires) and then in software on the PC itself assign CapsLock to AltGr.
I think you didn't get it. He is using a Poker X and there is no right Alt on this keyboard. Instead of the right Alt, there is the Fn key. The right Alt has not been remapped somewhere else, so basically there is NO right Alt and so I was wondering how he typed some characters needed for european languages.
Personally, I am a programmer and I do not use arrow keys and home/page up/F1-12/etc very often. So the lack of some keys is not a problem to me. The reason why I love 60% board is: a. perfect symmetry, and b. TKL boards have a huge part of the case exposed and I prefer 60% style, where keycaps take almost all of the surface.
Could you elaborate a bit more?
I'm a developer and I use home/end/page up/page down, a ton. I don't believe I could operate without them.
When I buy a laptop, I need to make sure that these keys are positioned efficiently or the computer will be practically unusable for me.
I also use arrow keys quite alot.
I'm also a developer and I barely use home/end/page up/page down. But I can see where you would use the arrow keys a lot unless your using Vim.
Otherwise maybe we should have another Toronto keyboard party when this gets released LOL.
:D
I think you didn't get it. He is using a Poker X and there is no right Alt on this keyboard. Instead of the right Alt, there is the Fn key. The right Alt has not been remapped somewhere else, so basically there is NO right Alt and so I was wondering how he typed some characters needed for european languages.
Ctrl+Alt can also be used in place of AltGr.
I think you didn't get it. He is using a Poker X and there is no right Alt on this keyboard. Instead of the right Alt, there is the Fn key. The right Alt has not been remapped somewhere else, so basically there is NO right Alt and so I was wondering how he typed some characters needed for european languages.
Ctrl+Alt can also be used in place of AltGr.
Under Windows I guess? Under Linux and Mac I have a bunch of shortcuts in the Ctrl-Alt layer, that would be a problem for me.
Anyway, in your 60% layout, please don't remove the right Alt key! :)
Personally, I am a programmer and I do not use arrow keys and home/page up/F1-12/etc very often. So the lack of some keys is not a problem to me. The reason why I love 60% board is: a. perfect symmetry, and b. TKL boards have a huge part of the case exposed and I prefer 60% style, where keycaps take almost all of the surface.
Could you elaborate a bit more?
I'm a developer and I use home/end/page up/page down, a ton. I don't believe I could operate without them.
When I buy a laptop, I need to make sure that these keys are positioned efficiently or the computer will be practically unusable for me.
I also use arrow keys quite alot.
I'm also a developer and I barely use home/end/page up/page down. But I can see where you would use the arrow keys a lot unless your using Vim.
There are only 12 programmers in the world that never use the arrow keys because they are only using VIM and will never use anything else, but you hear about them all the time in every thread where the words "arrow keys" pop up. :)
The rest of the programmers of the world use many different IDEs and use the arrow keys all the time. It's just that they don't boast about it.
That being said, I'm working on a layout that eliminates the arrow keys, so I hope the 12 VIM users mentioned above will take this with humor. :)
Personally, I am a programmer and I do not use arrow keys and home/page up/F1-12/etc very often. So the lack of some keys is not a problem to me. The reason why I love 60% board is: a. perfect symmetry, and b. TKL boards have a huge part of the case exposed and I prefer 60% style, where keycaps take almost all of the surface.
Could you elaborate a bit more?
I'm a developer and I use home/end/page up/page down, a ton. I don't believe I could operate without them.
When I buy a laptop, I need to make sure that these keys are positioned efficiently or the computer will be practically unusable for me.
I also use arrow keys quite alot.
I'm also a developer and I barely use home/end/page up/page down. But I can see where you would use the arrow keys a lot unless your using Vim.
There are only 12 programmers in the world that never use the arrow keys because they are only using VIM and will never use anything else, but you hear about them all the time in every thread where the words "arrow keys" pop up. :)
The rest of the programmers of the world use many different IDEs and use the arrow keys all the time. It's just that they don't boast about it.
That being said, I'm working on a layout that eliminates the arrow keys, so I hope the 12 VIM users mentioned above will take this with humor. :)
I use elvis (another vi clone) and I don't think I've ever used the arrow keys in it. hjkl ftw!
I don't use those foldout legs but it's nice to know its there. Having said that, is it a cost statement or are you planning a compartment for cable storage or cable management? I'd sacrifice foldout legs for storage and management.
Personally, I am a programmer and I do not use ...
I'm a developer and I use...
I'm also a developer and I barely use...
Many of us on the forum are engineers and developers. You'd be hard pressed to find a more finicky group of people to deal with when it comes to anything computer/technology related. I'm sure if you forced yourself a little, you'd all do just fine.
The first manufacturer that provides out-of-the-box fully programmable layers and key combos will be the real hero. Until then, every product is going to fall short. When Matias said that his 60% is better than Poker/Pure, I hope he meant something along the lines of this or else it'll just be nitpicked to death by a bunch of overzealous jabronis :p
Personally, I am a programmer and I do not use ...
I'm a developer and I use...
I'm also a developer and I barely use...
Many of us on the forum are engineers and developers. You'd be hard pressed to find a more finicky group of people to deal with when it comes to anything computer/technology related. I'm sure if you forced yourself a little, you'd all do just fine.
The first manufacturer that provides out-of-the-box fully programmable layers and key combos will be the real hero. Until then, every product is going to fall short. When Matias said that his 60% is better than Poker/Pure, I hope he meant something along the lines of this or else it'll just be nitpicked to death by a bunch of overzealous jabronis :p
developers who use pagedn/up are developers who have to learn how to use the scrollwheel on their logitech mouse ;)
....
But it is more efficient to just hit page up/down.
Wasn't planning to include a cable compartment. That would make it too thick IMO.
Just thought of another issue...
Do you guys put your 60% overtop of your laptop keyboard? If so, then the feet would have to be positioned so as not to press keys on the laptop keyboard.
Personally, I am a programmer and I do not use ...
I'm a developer and I use...
I'm also a developer and I barely use...
Many of us on the forum are engineers and developers. You'd be hard pressed to find a more finicky group of people to deal with when it comes to anything computer/technology related. I'm sure if you forced yourself a little, you'd all do just fine.
The first manufacturer that provides out-of-the-box fully programmable layers and key combos will be the real hero. Until then, every product is going to fall short. When Matias said that his 60% is better than Poker/Pure, I hope he meant something along the lines of this or else it'll just be nitpicked to death by a bunch of overzealous jabronis :p
developers who use pagedn/up are developers who have to learn how to use the scrollwheel on their logitech mouse ;)
Okay, I think we've pretty much nailed down what everybody likes about 60%.
How about foldout legs? Are they necessary? Are they better left off?
I don't use those foldout legs but it's nice to know its there. Having said that, is it a cost statement or are you planning a compartment for cable storage or cable management? I'd sacrifice foldout legs for storage and management.I somewhat agree partially on what Belfong said. Though cable storage/management is somewhat an optional item for me. With my HHKB JP I have a bag for specifically just that. ;D
But definitely huge big rubberized 'legs' please. The HHKB's rubber was so small and pathetic!
Personally, I am a programmer and I do not use ...
I'm a developer and I use...
I'm also a developer and I barely use...
Many of us on the forum are engineers and developers. You'd be hard pressed to find a more finicky group of people to deal with when it comes to anything computer/technology related. I'm sure if you forced yourself a little, you'd all do just fine.
The first manufacturer that provides out-of-the-box fully programmable layers and key combos will be the real hero. Until then, every product is going to fall short. When Matias said that his 60% is better than Poker/Pure, I hope he meant something along the lines of this or else it'll just be nitpicked to death by a bunch of overzealous jabronis :p
developers who use pagedn/up are developers who have to learn how to use the scrollwheel on their logitech mouse ;)
But that would mean taking your hands off the keyboard and your eyes off the insertion point while you refocus in order to use the mouse.
Personally, I am a programmer and I do not use ...
I'm a developer and I use...
I'm also a developer and I barely use...
Many of us on the forum are engineers and developers. You'd be hard pressed to find a more finicky group of people to deal with when it comes to anything computer/technology related. I'm sure if you forced yourself a little, you'd all do just fine.
The first manufacturer that provides out-of-the-box fully programmable layers and key combos will be the real hero. Until then, every product is going to fall short. When Matias said that his 60% is better than Poker/Pure, I hope he meant something along the lines of this or else it'll just be nitpicked to death by a bunch of overzealous jabronis :p
developers who use pagedn/up are developers who have to learn how to use the scrollwheel on their logitech mouse ;)
But that would mean taking your hands off the keyboard and your eyes off the insertion point while you refocus in order to use the mouse.
Page Up/Down is away from the home row anyway.
However, I love the nav cluster on choc mini and TM2030. I can press keys with my thumb while resting the hand on a mouse/trackball.
Personally, I am a programmer and I do not use ...
I'm a developer and I use...
I'm also a developer and I barely use...
Many of us on the forum are engineers and developers. You'd be hard pressed to find a more finicky group of people to deal with when it comes to anything computer/technology related. I'm sure if you forced yourself a little, you'd all do just fine.
The first manufacturer that provides out-of-the-box fully programmable layers and key combos will be the real hero. Until then, every product is going to fall short. When Matias said that his 60% is better than Poker/Pure, I hope he meant something along the lines of this or else it'll just be nitpicked to death by a bunch of overzealous jabronis :p
developers who use pagedn/up are developers who have to learn how to use the scrollwheel on their logitech mouse ;)
But that would mean taking your hands off the keyboard and your eyes off the insertion point while you refocus in order to use the mouse.
Page Up/Down is away from the home row anyway.
However, I love the nav cluster on choc mini and TM2030. I can press keys with my thumb while resting the hand on a mouse/trackball.
Perhaps the last question...
Which dedicated hotkey functions do you use?
For example, Calculator button, Back button for the browser, etc. These would be in the Fn layer on the left side.
Given a choice, I hope the keycaps of a 60% is minimalistic ie not filled with so many legends. Already the important ones like arrow keys and media keys are taking up space. I feel these stuff like calc and browser home/back and forward are unnecessary and create a very complex visual on the keyboards.
Are you planning to put arrow keys as a Fn layer on WASD (which makes a lot of sense btw)? Then Q and E can be back and forward for browser which is used in the arrow keys clusters in most ThinkPads. Some newer ThinkPads has page up and page down beside the Up arrow.
Perhaps R can be Reload.
Perhaps the last question...
Which dedicated hotkey functions do you use?
For example, Calculator button, Back button for the browser, etc. These would be in the Fn layer on the left side.
Are you planning to put arrow keys as a Fn layer on WASD (which makes a lot of sense btw)? Then Q and E can be back and forward for browser which is used in the arrow keys clusters in most ThinkPads. Some newer ThinkPads has page up and page down beside the Up arrow.
Perhaps R can be Reload.
No, that would be too difficult for non-gamers. The arrows will be on the right.
On the left, we'd have Fn layer keys for Back, Forward, Calculator, and Browser. The rest of the keys on the left would be assigned F16-F24, which can be intercepted easily by AHK or macro software, for triggering text insertions or macros.
On the left, we'd have Fn layer keys for Back, Forward, Calculator, and Browser. The rest of the keys on the left would be assigned F16-F24, which can be intercepted easily by AHK or macro software, for triggering text insertions or macros.
A standard keyboard has no Calc key. How many people complain about it? How many people would reject a keyboard on the basis that it has no Calc key?
The point here is that I think you should avoid to overload some keys like X, C and V.
If the user has to hold some sort of Fn key to get the arrows (which I suspect from what you say), it would be very comfortable to be able to use Ctrl-X/Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V even if the Fn key is still pressed. Because typically when you use Ctrl-C or Ctrl-X, you have been using the navigation keys immediately before (to select the text), and you are going to use them again immediately after (to paste the text somewhere else). So if you allow both navigation and use of the clipboard while the Fn key is pressed, you make the user's life easier and your Fn layer a little bit more transparent.
Offering to remap all unused Fn layer keys to Fsomething would be very nice, but as an OPTION. I assume (hope) you are planning to offer a way to configure the keyboard in some way (DIP switches seem to be common and easily accepted), and this could be one of the options. Let the normal users be as unbothered as possible by the Fn layout, and the advanced users do the advanced stuff they want.
On the left, we'd have Fn layer keys for Back, Forward, Calculator, and Browser. The rest of the keys on the left would be assigned F16-F24, which can be intercepted easily by AHK or macro software, for triggering text insertions or macros.
A standard keyboard has no Calc key. How many people complain about it? How many people would reject a keyboard on the basis that it has no Calc key?
The point here is that I think you should avoid to overload some keys like X, C and V.
If the user has to hold some sort of Fn key to get the arrows (which I suspect from what you say), it would be very comfortable to be able to use Ctrl-X/Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V even if the Fn key is still pressed. Because typically when you use Ctrl-C or Ctrl-X, you have been using the navigation keys immediately before (to select the text), and you are going to use them again immediately after (to paste the text somewhere else). So if you allow both navigation and use of the clipboard while the Fn key is pressed, you make the user's life easier and your Fn layer a little bit more transparent.
Thanks for pointing this out.
I'll make sure they don't interfere.Offering to remap all unused Fn layer keys to Fsomething would be very nice, but as an OPTION. I assume (hope) you are planning to offer a way to configure the keyboard in some way (DIP switches seem to be common and easily accepted), and this could be one of the options. Let the normal users be as unbothered as possible by the Fn layout, and the advanced users do the advanced stuff they want.
Yes, it will be DIP switchable.
I'm also seriously considering releasing the mechanical specs for the PCB, so that Sprit and others can do their own versions with different ICs and cases if they like. We'd make keycaps available in a few colours.
Offering to remap all unused Fn layer keys to Fsomething would be very nice, but as an OPTION. I assume (hope) you are planning to offer a way to configure the keyboard in some way (DIP switches seem to be common and easily accepted), and this could be one of the options. Let the normal users be as unbothered as possible by the Fn layout, and the advanced users do the advanced stuff they want.
Yes, it will be DIP switchable.
I'm also seriously considering releasing the mechanical specs for the PCB, so that Sprit and others can do their own versions with different ICs and cases if they like. We'd make keycaps available in a few colours.
Wow! You are going to get a lot of love for this! You are not only listening to what we say, but you open the door to customization!? Hot stuff. :)
Offering to remap all unused Fn layer keys to Fsomething would be very nice, but as an OPTION. I assume (hope) you are planning to offer a way to configure the keyboard in some way (DIP switches seem to be common and easily accepted), and this could be one of the options. Let the normal users be as unbothered as possible by the Fn layout, and the advanced users do the advanced stuff they want.
Yes, it will be DIP switchable.
I'm also seriously considering releasing the mechanical specs for the PCB, so that Sprit and others can do their own versions with different ICs and cases if they like. We'd make keycaps available in a few colours.
Wow! You are going to get a lot of love for this! You are not only listening to what we say, but you open the door to customization!? Hot stuff. :)
Well, I don't want to compete with the community here. I want to help support it, and perhaps introduce some new designs which had not been considered before. I think what we have is clearly better than the Poker, HHKB, and FC660. :)
Okay, I think we've pretty much nailed down what everybody likes about 60%.
How about foldout legs? Are they necessary? Are they better left off?
I never use fold out legs on any of my keyboards. Most of the time, they make the board's angle too steep and it feels awkward to type on. Only time I used the feet was on the Microsoft Ergonomic 4000 where it had the reverse angle foot on it.
BTW, I don't see the FILCO MiniLa getting much love here, despite being available wireless as well. Any particular reason?
The Minila has imo the same issue as the Pure Pro, all 75% boards, the FC660M and others: the lack of replacement keycaps. For a lot of us this hobby is a lot about modding and when you have a hard time making it look the way you want it to look that is a turnoff. This is probably also the reason why the Poker is so popular, it is very customizable and uses standard keycap sizes.
Well, I don't want to compete with the community here. I want to help support it, and perhaps introduce some new designs which had not been considered before. I think what we have is clearly better than the Poker, HHKB, and FC660. :)
((Accidental post from hand phone))
[...] You also sacrifice PgUp, PgDn, Home, and End. [...]
[...] You also sacrifice PgUp, PgDn, Home, and End. [...]
I'm a little surprised to see this from someone whose primary product is a Mac keyboard. When was the last time you actually used those keys on a Mac?
Even when coding (obj-c, php, lua, html, css, js) I'm not using those keys ever. Ctrl+A/Ctrl+E is available in any application on Mac OS and I find those to be way more accessible while typing than Home/End. Since the Emacs cursor movement key bindings (Ctrl+P/Ctrl+F/Ctrl+N/Ctrl+B for Up/Right/Down/Left) are available everywhere as well the cursor keys aren't missing either.
Combine that with the fact that the the F-keys are used rarely to never on Mac OS either, a 60% - at least for me - happens to be just perfect on a Mac.
Well of course the added desk space and the shorter distance between keyboard and mouse for the right hand are huge perks as well.
[...] You also sacrifice PgUp, PgDn, Home, and End. [...]
I'm a little surprised to see this from someone whose primary product is a Mac keyboard. When was the last time you actually used those keys on a Mac?
Even when coding (obj-c, php, lua, html, css, js) I'm not using those keys ever. Ctrl+A/Ctrl+E is available in any application on Mac OS and I find those to be way more accessible while typing than Home/End. Since the Emacs cursor movement key bindings (Ctrl+P/Ctrl+F/Ctrl+N/Ctrl+B for Up/Right/Down/Left) are available everywhere as well the cursor keys aren't missing either.
Combine that with the fact that the the F-keys are used rarely to never on Mac OS either, a 60% - at least for me - happens to be just perfect on a Mac.
Well of course the added desk space and the shorter distance between keyboard and mouse for the right hand are huge perks as well.
For me Home, End, Pg Up and Pg Down work differently on Mac to Windows. I do not tend to use them much, if at all, on Mac, mainly because they work slightly differently.
Function keys - what about Expose? And games (should you happen to play games on a Mac, which I do)?
Personally:
Closer distance to the mouse - it's the same concept as tenkeyless but pushed further.
They look cool, though this is just my opinion of aesthetics.
A lot of keys removed aren't used all that often - most of the F-keys. I do miss dedicated Page Up/Down in apps where I can't substitute something else.
If you use Vim then you don't need no stinkin' arrow keys :D
I guess this space will get more interesting once you post up some sketches or something hehe. After playing around with the minds of 60% of enthusiasts. ;D
The Minila has imo the same issue as the Pure Pro, all 75% boards, the FC660M and others: the lack of replacement keycaps. For a lot of us this hobby is a lot about modding and when you have a hard time making it look the way you want it to look that is a turnoff. This is probably also the reason why the Poker is so popular, it is very customizable and uses standard keycap sizes.
Also, this has been the obstacle for all Alps-based projects to date, unfortunately.
I know most of the discussion has been how it relates to using using mechanical keyboards with laptops and being mobile. I think 60% are popular for travel, but I would argue that they are equally popular for looks as well. Those favoring a more minimal style that was introduced with the Apple BT keyboard that comes standard with all iMacs for example.
As for me personally, I have found that I really enjoy having a 60% in a heavy aluminum case. This is probably the exact opposite of where you're going and I don't think that I'm the target demographic, so consider these thoughts heavily salted. ;) I just found it interesting how much I preferred the solid typing experience of using a Poker X in the Hammer 60% case after typing on a Poker X in the MKC 60% for the past two days. The feel is remarkably different and as an early adopter/enthusiast, I'm also someone that would pay extra for said heavy aluminum case.
If you guys deliver a kick ass travel keyboard, I think you'll have a winner on your hands. And who knows, there might be an aftermarket for 3rd party cases and the like for those of us outliers. :cool:
60% boards - what's the attraction?
This. (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49655.0)
[...] You also sacrifice PgUp, PgDn, Home, and End. [...]
I'm a little surprised to see this from someone whose primary product is a Mac keyboard. When was the last time you actually used those keys on a Mac?
Just wanted to re-emphasize that I would very much like a Matias 60% board.
2014: Year of the Alps/Matias/Alps derivatives. Calling it now.
I only have one thing to say to you sir…Show Image(http://denver.mylittlefacewhen.com/media/f/img/mlfw2017-104445_-_darth_vader_fluttershy_reaction_face_resp.png)
I guess this space will get more interesting once you post up some sketches or something hehe. After playing around with the minds of 60% of enthusiasts. ;D
Sorry to be so cryptic, but it takes time to develop a new product, so I don't want to reveal all until we're closer to the release date.
Having said that, I'm glad I posted here. This thread has been extremely helpful to my understanding of 60% users. I don't think it's an understatement to say that our 60% board would likely not have seen the light of day without the insight gained from GH.
I only have one thing to say to you sir…Show Image(http://denver.mylittlefacewhen.com/media/f/img/mlfw2017-104445_-_darth_vader_fluttershy_reaction_face_resp.png)
Wow, I'm speechless... :)
I only have one thing to say to you sir…Show Image(http://denver.mylittlefacewhen.com/media/f/img/mlfw2017-104445_-_darth_vader_fluttershy_reaction_face_resp.png)
Wow, I'm speechless... :)
I guess I'm severely late to the party, but is making a matrix layout a possibility? I'm rather interested in trying Matias switches, but unless I could justify it ergonomically as they probably wouldn't replace my other boards, I probably couldn't get them.
Thanks, Matias.
I only have one thing to say to you sir…Show Image(http://denver.mylittlefacewhen.com/media/f/img/mlfw2017-104445_-_darth_vader_fluttershy_reaction_face_resp.png)
Wow, I'm speechless... :)
I guess I'm severely late to the party, but is making a matrix layout a possibility? I'm rather interested in trying Matias switches, but unless I could justify it ergonomically as they probably wouldn't replace my other boards, I probably couldn't get them.
Thanks, Matias.
http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_list&c=52
:D
Of course you still have to make the actual keyboard, but...
I only have one thing to say to you sir…Show Image(http://denver.mylittlefacewhen.com/media/f/img/mlfw2017-104445_-_darth_vader_fluttershy_reaction_face_resp.png)
Wow, I'm speechless... :)
I guess I'm severely late to the party, but is making a matrix layout a possibility? I'm rather interested in trying Matias switches, but unless I could justify it ergonomically as they probably wouldn't replace my other boards, I probably couldn't get them.
Thanks, Matias.
http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_list&c=52
:D
Of course you still have to make the actual keyboard, but...
Before clicking on the link: :D
After: :rolleyes:
I just don't think that a matrix-style PCB has been created yet.
I only have one thing to say to you sir…Show Image(http://denver.mylittlefacewhen.com/media/f/img/mlfw2017-104445_-_darth_vader_fluttershy_reaction_face_resp.png)
Wow, I'm speechless... :)
I guess I'm severely late to the party, but is making a matrix layout a possibility? I'm rather interested in trying Matias switches, but unless I could justify it ergonomically as they probably wouldn't replace my other boards, I probably couldn't get them.
Thanks, Matias.
http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_list&c=52
:D
Of course you still have to make the actual keyboard, but...
Before clicking on the link: :D
After: :rolleyes:
I just don't think that a matrix-style PCB has been created yet.
I guess this space will get more interesting once you post up some sketches or something hehe. After playing around with the minds of 60% of enthusiasts. ;D
Sorry to be so cryptic, but it takes time to develop a new product, so I don't want to reveal all until we're closer to the release date.
Having said that, I'm glad I posted here. This thread has been extremely helpful to my understanding of 60% users. I don't think it's an understatement to say that our 60% board would likely not have seen the light of day without the insight gained from GH.
Ahh well in that case I'll try and keep watch of this space then. I know prototyping can take up time and all but maybe some possible mock up images might be nice. Not that I'm forcing you to release one or whatever, just it would be interesting to see from the accumulation of what inputs you have received and what you have decided to put in charge. Having said that I am not some sort of keyboard "paparazzi" :p just curious. In either case I shall await for more details of the final product.
I guess I would like to thank you also for hearing from us and taking in the inputs we are providing. I just don't think there are that many manufacturers out there that would poll in an open forum where there's loads of enthusiasts are let alone to think that they would be moved if a few people decide to email the manufacturer directly to voice their concerns and all. There is certainly lots of keyboard innovations going on with each company trying this and that to maintain their appeal to their clientele but I don't think there is one company that would take all the inputs of others whom uses varied brands of hardware to come up with. Something that I guess would seem as "magic bullet" with a keyboard incorporating most if not all the features found on other keyboards. This is why I presumed it would be a game changer within the scene (at least for 60% wise).
Sorry to take this off-topic, Matias..
You can have a 3mm acrylic sheet laser cut with switch holes and wire it up by hand. It's a lot of work, but less work than designing and having a PCB made. It could actually look pretty awesome if you use clear acrylic and clear Matias switches :D
Acrylic can also be bent by using heat, specifically if you use a wire heater to heat just a thin line you can bend it neatly. Depending on your skill, you could make an awesome custom board. Can put all the features you want from your "ultimate" keyboard in it and the cost isn't prohibitive.
I am interested to try the Matias switches, too, so I may get some from MK for one of my next builds. The price is good.
Back on topic: Will the keyboard layout be able to be flashed to the keyboard controller or will it use a single set layout and require software to change layouts?
I guess I'm severely late to the party, but is making a matrix layout a possibility? I'm rather interested in trying Matias switches, but unless I could justify it ergonomically as they probably wouldn't replace my other boards, I probably couldn't get them.
An ErgoDox would be the way to go. With any luck, they'll support our switches soon.
Personally, I don't see the attraction at all. I want and use a full 100% keyboard! I use the num pad on the right for calculating stuff, and all of the other keys and functions like print screen. I guess its different strokes for different folks, but I have absolutely no interest in anything less than a full board :thumb:
Personally, I don't see the attraction at all. I want and use a full 100% keyboard! I use the num pad on the right for calculating stuff, and all of the other keys and functions like print screen. I guess its different strokes for different folks, but I have absolutely no interest in anything less than a full board :thumb:
Good for you. Now please don't comment in a thread if you have nothing constructive to say.
Excellent timing! I should have recovered enough from the last wallet hack! Count me in.
uhm ... I'm partial to dark pastels, green / blue, maybe an orange legend or possibly blood orange aluminum cases. Not saying I can swing anodized aluminum but if you're askin' ...
Oh, I should add, that in terms of colours, if possible, post photos of what you like.
Pantone colour numbers are fine too. :)
Excellent timing! I should have recovered enough from the last wallet hack! Count me in.
uhm ... I'm partial to dark pastels, green / blue, maybe an orange legend or possibly blood orange aluminum cases. Not saying I can swing anodized aluminum but if you're askin' ...
Oh, I should add, that in terms of colours, if possible, post photos of what you like.
Pantone colour numbers are fine too. :)
I don't have any color preference but then wouldn't mind a white in the spirit of an Apple keyboard.
Recently a GH member, sprit from Korea, took the Apple keyboard keys and made his own 60%. This brought back good nostalgic memories and if Matias 60% is the same, it would bd really great! I don't know if there's any copyright (with Apple) but I doubt it.Show Image(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/18/upuberu4.jpg)
I don't have any color preference but then wouldn't mind a white in the spirit of an Apple keyboard.
Recently a GH member, sprit from Korea, took the Apple keyboard keys and made his own 60%. This brought back good nostalgic memories and if Matias 60% is the same, it would bd really great! I don't know if there's any copyright (with Apple) but I doubt it.Show Image(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/18/upuberu4.jpg)
Woah! What keyboard is that, The poker 2?
And that font is Really Unique.
I don't have any color preference but then wouldn't mind a white in the spirit of an Apple keyboard.
Recently a GH member, sprit from Korea, took the Apple keyboard keys and made his own 60%. This brought back good nostalgic memories and if Matias 60% is the same, it would bd really great! I don't know if there's any copyright (with Apple) but I doubt it.Show Image(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/18/upuberu4.jpg)
I don't have any color preference but then wouldn't mind a white in the spirit of an Apple keyboard.
Recently a GH member, sprit from Korea, took the Apple keyboard keys and made his own 60%. This brought back good nostalgic memories and if Matias 60% is the same, it would bd really great! I don't know if there's any copyright (with Apple) but I doubt it.Show Image(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/18/upuberu4.jpg)
Okay, just want to let everybody know that we're going ahead with this. :cool:
It will be done as a Group Buy, with some different colour options for case and/or keycaps. Let me know what you guys want on that front.
Time permitting, we'll start work on the case design next month, and will likely post the Interest Check in mid- to late January.
Woah! What keyboard is that, The poker 2?
And that font is Really Unique.
It's actually a cut-down Apple keyboard, but I forget which one. I don't know if it actually works, but I think it's a GREAT look.
FWIW there are no 60% keyboards that have the Apple formatted key caps. So when the time comes, having the option to choose a Windows style, or a Mac style when unboxing the keyboard would be very, very awesome.
::: Windows Keys :::
- Backspace
- Enter
- Windows
- Alt
::: Mac Keys :::
- Delete
- Return
- Command
- Option
Just a thought.
Okay, just want to let everybody know that we're going ahead with this. :cool:
It will be done as a Group Buy, with some different colour options for case and/or keycaps. Let me know what you guys want on that front.
Time permitting, we'll start work on the case design next month, and will likely post the Interest Check in mid- to late January.
Wait wait, 60% Alps right Matias??
Yes, yes...60% Alps keyboard with keycaps! And Apple font! :D
Okay, just want to let everybody know that we're going ahead with this. :cool:
It will be done as a Group Buy, with some different colour options for case and/or keycaps. Let me know what you guys want on that front.
Time permitting, we'll start work on the case design next month, and will likely post the Interest Check in mid- to late January.
Wait wait, 60% Alps right Matias??
Yes, yes...60% Alps keyboard with keycaps! And Apple font! :D
/me is so excited, he just can't hide it!!
SOMEONE POST A HAPPY DANCE GIF. I'M BAD AT GIFS
Yes, yes...60% Alps keyboard with keycaps! And Apple font! :D
/me is so excited, he just can't hide it!!
SOMEONE POST A HAPPY DANCE GIF. I'M BAD AT GIFS
(Attachment Link)
(http://replygif.net/i/203.gif)Yes, yes...60% Alps keyboard with keycaps! And Apple font! :D
/me is so excited, he just can't hide it!!
SOMEONE POST A HAPPY DANCE GIF. I'M BAD AT GIFS
Yes, yes...60% Alps keyboard with keycaps! And Apple font! :D
/me is so excited, he just can't hide it!!
SOMEONE POST A HAPPY DANCE GIF. I'M BAD AT GIFS
(Attachment Link)
Hahaha, somebody needs to do a keycap GB based on that sweater...
Yes, yes...60% Alps keyboard with keycaps! And Apple font! :D
/me is so excited, he just can't hide it!!
SOMEONE POST A HAPPY DANCE GIF. I'M BAD AT GIFS
(Attachment Link)
Hahaha, somebody needs to do a keycap GB based on that sweater...
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=50968.0 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=50968.0) :thumb:
Actually, we do have the font artwork for that layout. We used to use it. I always liked it, but when Apple moved on from it, we were forced to as well. Might be interesting to have it available again. :)
Are you asking for this first group buy or for mass market later? I think for group buy, I would suggest a poll later which would give more insights. I personally prefer the old-school italicised Univers for both Mac and PC. For PC folks, there are just too many 'common' fonts for the PC consumers - Helvetica is the most common. Looking at all the variety keyboards out there and the keycaps group buys that are happening now, an italicised one would be most refreshing.
For classic colours I really like the old Apple italicised font. It's the font that was on the first real computer I used (Apple IIc) and while I didn't like the keys on that keyboard, I really liked the font.
An all-white board with that font in black would rock, IMHO!
I think you'll have a hard time finding a couple of colour schemes that everyone will like unless they're "classic", like all-white, all-black, Dolch, etc.
I would also love a "Guinness" board. Dark brown case and unmarked cream caps. I also like the Portal 2 retro Aperture Labs colours. All warm and... brown. Homely and inviting somehow.
Will there be an ISO version? I'm well aware that ISO boards are a niche in this market, but a 60% board with ALPS with an ISO layout for Macs would be something I would buy for sure.
At one time, I bought this Apple keyboard thinking it was mechanical:Show Image(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/19/by9u6uvy.jpg)
It's not mechanical and it's one of the worst keyboards I have ever used.
The worst thing is that the key caps is made of this material that stained and it became black and gross very very fast.
Please don't use this key caps! White is not attractive if it stained easily.
But: it's beautiful. The whiteness and the font type!
Okay, so far we have 2 font options for Mac... the old-school italicized Univers 57 Condensed Oblique, and VAG Rounded (which their current keyboards use).
Okay, so far we have 2 font options for Mac... the old-school italicized Univers 57 Condensed Oblique, and VAG Rounded (which their current keyboards use).
No love for Motter Tektura?
My guess is that most PC owners will want Comic Sans
<ducks, runs away>
@Matias, will there be a quiet switch version? There aren't many stock quiet 60% keyboards. I'm personally only interested in a quiet version, but appreciate your doing this for the community, regardless.
No love for Motter Tektura?
My guess is that most PC owners will want Comic Sans
<ducks, runs away>
Yes, quiet version for sure. It's our most popular switch.
No need to worry. It will have standalone arrow keys — not in the fn layer.
This will be very much a "no compromises" 60% keyboard. It will have more functionality than the FC660, and will be smaller also.
Thinking out loud here. One of the reasons the FC660C is popular is the inclusion of the arrow keys.
This just sounds better the more I read about it! Really can't wait to see the mock up drawings. Any timeframe for that happening?
We're doing another product announcement beginning of December.
TKL is one tiny step shy of a full keyboard, and honestly 75% is more keys than I need. But I use the arrow keys all the time ... I work with text, and while I acknowledge you do, too obviously we do it differently.Thinking out loud here. One of the reasons the FC660C is popular is the inclusion of the arrow keys.
It is exactly reason I don't like them.
TKL is one tiny step shy of a full keyboard, and honestly 75% is more keys than I need. But I use the arrow keys all the time ... I work with text, and while I acknowledge you do, too obviously we do it differently.
TKL is one tiny step shy of a full keyboard, and honestly 75% is more keys than I need. But I use the arrow keys all the time ... I work with text, and while I acknowledge you do, too obviously we do it differently.
In that vein, a 60% is only one even tinier step short of a TKL.
TKL vs fullsize is the largest step in key size, losing four key widths plus the dividing area. The 60% is only three keys.
A TKL is significantly smaller than a full size, and retains most of its functionality. That's why most of us have one rather than a 60%.
TKL is one tiny step shy of a full keyboard, and honestly 75% is more keys than I need. But I use the arrow keys all the time ... I work with text, and while I acknowledge you do, too obviously we do it differently.
In that vein, a 60% is only one even tinier step short of a TKL.
TKL vs fullsize is the largest step in key size, losing four key widths plus the dividing area. The 60% is only three keys.
A TKL is significantly smaller than a full size, and retains most of its functionality. That's why most of us have one rather than a 60%.
Four, not three. There's a gap between nav cluster and the alphanumeric part. And another row + gap less.
Huh? Last time I checked, the numpad area was 5×4 grid (dimension as in case of matrix).
Anyway, I prefer compact keyboard + external keypad. What's the point of keys that can't be reached from the home row?
Huh? Last time I checked, the numpad area was 5×4 grid (dimension as in case of matrix).
Anyway, I prefer compact keyboard + external keypad. What's the point of keys that can't be reached from the home row?
Just ran across this...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/emilyblincoe/sets/72157633755802272
Some interesting (and tasteful) colour combos. Slate black background seems to work with just about anything.
White and red look pretty nice together...Show Image(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7418/9427902898_dec7cde28a.jpg)
And you can do some pretty interesting things with blue...Show Image(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3689/9326778308_cf34ced513.jpg)
Just ran across this...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/emilyblincoe/sets/72157633755802272 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/emilyblincoe/sets/72157633755802272)
Some interesting (and tasteful) colour combos. Slate black background seems to work with just about anything.
White and red look pretty nice together...Show Image(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7418/9427902898_dec7cde28a.jpg)
And you can do some pretty interesting things with blue...Show Image(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3689/9326778308_cf34ced513.jpg)
Slate color is nice. Please also consider black on gray, like this Ducky G2 Pro PBT:Show Image(http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/images/products/large_462_DuckyDYE_grey6.jpg)
(Photo from mechanicalkeyboards.com.)
Black on slate?
Purple on Pink. :P
This will be very much a "no compromises" 60% keyboard. It will have more functionality than the FC660, and will be smaller also.
This will be very much a "no compromises" 60% keyboard. It will have more functionality than the FC660, and will be smaller also.
How flexible will the function layer be? Any chance of customizable firmware? I want to map HJKL to arrows, single tap Caps Lock to Esq while holding Caps Lock with other key to Ctrl + key.
http://stevelosh.com/blog/2012/10/a-modern-space-cadet/
Matias your TKL layout is pretty obviously the best non-split layout available. Symmetrical modifier key layout, compact, still has arrow cluster.
I don't think it'd be worth your while to mess with 60% layouts, they aren't going to be meaningfully more compact than what you have.
Matias your TKL layout is pretty obviously the best non-split layout available. Symmetrical modifier key layout, compact, still has arrow cluster.
I don't think it'd be worth your while to mess with 60% layouts, they aren't going to be meaningfully more compact than what you have.
Agree... I just swapped my MiniQP for a KBT Pure pro at the office and I don't think the KBT will last long.
For the little space gain over the MiniQP the 60% has major shortcomings.
Matias your TKL layout is pretty obviously the best non-split layout available. Symmetrical modifier key layout, compact, still has arrow cluster.
I don't think it'd be worth your while to mess with 60% layouts, they aren't going to be meaningfully more compact than what you have.
Agree... I just swapped my MiniQP for a KBT Pure pro at the office and I don't think the KBT will last long.
For the little space gain over the MiniQP the 60% has major shortcomings.
I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at how much functionality we managed to fit into it. :-)
I wasn't kidding when I said that it was a "no compromises" effort. Aside from the function keys and number pad, there's really not much missing from it.
I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at how much functionality we managed to fit into it. :-)
I wasn't kidding when I said that it was a "no compromises" effort. Aside from the function keys and number pad, there's really not much missing from it.
Matias your TKL layout is pretty obviously the best non-split layout available. Symmetrical modifier key layout, compact, still has arrow cluster.
I don't think it'd be worth your while to mess with 60% layouts, they aren't going to be meaningfully more compact than what you have.
Agree... I just swapped my MiniQP for a KBT Pure pro at the office and I don't think the KBT will last long.
For the little space gain over the MiniQP the 60% has major shortcomings.
I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at how much functionality we managed to fit into it. :-)
I wasn't kidding when I said that it was a "no compromises" effort. Aside from the function keys and number pad, there's really not much missing from it.
I'd like to pass on a suggestion if possible.
For those super-niche people like myself who are southpaw gamers and interested in minimalist keyboards(I highly doubt there is anyone other than myself):
What is the likeliness of having a dipswitch to replace Right FN with Right CTRL. Literally the only TKL board I have seen that pulls this off is the Noppoo Choc Mini (http://i.imgur.com/mKOhyml.jpg) It's pretty much a vital placement for us, but it's either thrown off into the bottom right corner(poker, pure, QFR... the list goes on). Or just slightly too far out of reach(keycool 84). This picture (http://polpo.org/keycool/IMG_0520.JPG) shows what i'm talking about. Ideally the left side of the ctrl key should be roughly under the / key.
Now, this may seem pretty petty to some people, but you know, it's the tiny details like this, which sway purchases in the favour.
Also, Fn + Backspace = Delete is a habbit i've really got used to from the Pure, it just feels so 'natural'.
Edit: now that i'm thinking about it, I personally don't even use the right Alt key, and I can't personally think of a single time where it would be used, So even possibly removing that key altogether and shoving Fn/Ctrl along into the empty space would be enough.
Lol, I don't know if I can wait till January?!
I'd like to pass on a suggestion if possible.
For those super-niche people like myself who are southpaw gamers and interested in minimalist keyboards(I highly doubt there is anyone other than myself):
What is the likeliness of having a dipswitch to replace Right FN with Right CTRL.
Edit: now that i'm thinking about it, I personally don't even use the right Alt key, and I can't personally think of a single time where it would be used, So even possibly removing that key altogether and shoving Fn/Ctrl along into the empty space would be enough.
The right Alt key is absolutely fundamental for several European languages (it's called AltGr in this case). Messing with it is not good for your health if you are a keyboard manufacturer.
Also, Fn + Backspace = Delete is a habbit i've really got used to from the Pure, it just feels so 'natural'.
If you fit in the arrow keys into the modifier layer, I'd be overjoyed. Either way, looking forward to this keyboard and hopefully I'll be trying a Matias within a few months.
I need my arrow keys and I'm used to a large RSHIFT. That's where the KBT Pure pro slap me in the face. I keep extending my pinky over the short switch and hit the up arrow.
So am I right in thinking the only readily available (in the UK at least) clicky white-ish ISO board is the biege Unicomp full size? Hmm...
Am I right in assuming squeaky space-bars won't be an issue? ;-)
I'd like to pass on a suggestion if possible.
For those super-niche people like myself who are southpaw gamers and interested in minimalist keyboards(I highly doubt there is anyone other than myself):
What is the likeliness of having a dipswitch to replace Right FN with Right CTRL. Literally the only TKL board I have seen that pulls this off is the Noppoo Choc Mini (http://i.imgur.com/mKOhyml.jpg) It's pretty much a vital placement for us, but it's either thrown off into the bottom right corner(poker, pure, QFR... the list goes on). Or just slightly too far out of reach(keycool 84). This picture (http://polpo.org/keycool/IMG_0520.JPG) shows what i'm talking about. Ideally the left side of the ctrl key should be roughly under the / key.
Now, this may seem pretty petty to some people, but you know, it's the tiny details like this, which sway purchases in the favour.
Also, Fn + Backspace = Delete is a habbit i've really got used to from the Pure, it just feels so 'natural'.
Edit: now that i'm thinking about it, I personally don't even use the right Alt key, and I can't personally think of a single time where it would be used, So even possibly removing that key altogether and shoving Fn/Ctrl along into the empty space would be enough.
The right Alt key is absolutely fundamental for several European languages (it's called AltGr in this case). Messing with it is not good for your health if you are a keyboard manufacturer.
I'd like to pass on a suggestion if possible.
For those super-niche people like myself who are southpaw gamers and interested in minimalist keyboards(I highly doubt there is anyone other than myself):
What is the likeliness of having a dipswitch to replace Right FN with Right CTRL. Literally the only TKL board I have seen that pulls this off is the Noppoo Choc Mini (http://i.imgur.com/mKOhyml.jpg) It's pretty much a vital placement for us, but it's either thrown off into the bottom right corner(poker, pure, QFR... the list goes on). Or just slightly too far out of reach(keycool 84). This picture (http://polpo.org/keycool/IMG_0520.JPG) shows what i'm talking about. Ideally the left side of the ctrl key should be roughly under the / key.
Now, this may seem pretty petty to some people, but you know, it's the tiny details like this, which sway purchases in the favour.
Also, Fn + Backspace = Delete is a habbit i've really got used to from the Pure, it just feels so 'natural'.
Edit: now that i'm thinking about it, I personally don't even use the right Alt key, and I can't personally think of a single time where it would be used, So even possibly removing that key altogether and shoving Fn/Ctrl along into the empty space would be enough.
The right Alt key is absolutely fundamental for several European languages (it's called AltGr in this case). Messing with it is not good for your health if you are a keyboard manufacturer.
Do you guys need the ALT for "normal" language characters?
I have absolutely no pretention in ergonomics, LSHIFT and RSHIFT are constantly in use in my basic typing technique style. I don't look at the keyboard 90% of the time as I cover letters and the number row. But I have to "break" the stand for anything special. I don't look when I break stand for the arrows, DEL and backspace and if they are not where expected, I screw up.
The KBT Pure Pro messes with my references because the backspace, DEL are lined up vertically. My positional reference for the DEL is higher-left of the up arrow. BEEP, wrong answer on the Pure. Speaking of the UP arrow, I don't expect a big fat return right above. Since this is the land of DEL.Show Image(http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33088.0;attach=46263;image)
For the "extended" modifiers, I don't know if it is because I'm left handed but that is the hand and side I use to punch for (ALT, CTRL, WIN, etc...). I not only break stand for those, but I also look at the keyboard to locate them, which mean I don't really care where they are. I spot them first, then hit.
The more I look at the Pure (above), maybe I made the wrong choice and for my simple mind, a Poker (below) would have been a better choice. Thinking of it now, I'd rather relearn to FN the arrows, then mess with the right side of the cluster.Show Image(http://dangwang.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/img_0908.jpg)
source from dangwang.files.wordpress.com
So here's what went wrong in my 60% first time buying process. I got scared by the lack of arrow keys and neglected the major impact of messing with the right cluster layout. In all honesty, the arrow keys don't fall in the 90% usage. I think it would have been more ergonomic to locate the FN key on the left side of the spacebar. On the other hand (pun intended) the right side FN allows to single hand handle the arrows with the thumb.
On my french AZERTY layout, I need the right Alt (it's called AltGr) to type the following characters, which are all located on the numeric row:
~ # { [ | ` \ ^ @ ] }
If I'm just typing text, I almost never need AltGr. But I soon as I have to type a command or do some serious work, I need AltGr all the time. So this key at the right of the space bar must be an Alt, not an Fn, or the manufacturer loses the ability to sell his keyboard in many places in the world.
On my french AZERTY layout, I need the right Alt (it's called AltGr) to type the following characters, which are all located on the numeric row:
~ # { [ | ` \ ^ @ ] }
If I'm just typing text, I almost never need AltGr. But I soon as I have to type a command or do some serious work, I need AltGr all the time. So this key at the right of the space bar must be an Alt, not an Fn, or the manufacturer loses the ability to sell his keyboard in many places in the world.
Est-ce que tu composes les combinaisons AltGR: ~ # { [ | ` \ ^ @ ] } sans regarder ton clavier et ou sans briser ta posture?
The right Alt key is absolutely fundamental for several European languages (it's called AltGr in this case). Messing with it is not good for your health if you are a keyboard manufacturer.Aaaand there it is. I totally forgot that people spoke other languages(who would have thought that!) Thanks for correcting me <3
You won't have to wait that long. I'll be disclosing some major details next week. January is just for the case drawings.Exciting :) can't wait.
An AutoHotkey script is your best bet for this. Very easy to swap Alt & Ctrl this way.Never thought of that, thanks. Will give it a try on my pure.
Yes, that will be supported, along with a separate Delete key.
There will be separate arrow keys. No need to go to the Fn layer for them.Excellent :D think you pretty much just guaranteed yourself at least one sale. <3
Oh and I thought I would be in an english forum. I guess I should start speaking german here, too...
Ok - Guilty as charged... I started the whole controversy by throwing few French words. Wooooooooo I'm bad, please spank me. (Preferably a young and pretty geekhack-her )
Anyway spice, it tends to confirm what I thought. We have more resilience to adapt to a new layout when it doesn't affect the automations developed for touch typing. I don't handle blindly a full size keyboard. But
My brain maps a full size keyboard in 4 clusters: Main, function Keys, navigation and numpad. I break position each time I leave the main cluster. Also the navigation, ESC, INS, DEL are done blind and I need to look at the function and numpad clusters or any ALT, CTRL, FN combos. I don't really care where a 60% locate any keys I have to look at anyway.
I don't know if you have seen the discussion about SpaceFN, but for reference it's there:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51069.0
It works very well and one of the benefits is that you don't move your hands from the home row when you use the navigation keys (Arrows, Home/End, PgUp/PgDn).
I don't know if you have seen the discussion about SpaceFN, but for reference it's there:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51069.0
It works very well and one of the benefits is that you don't move your hands from the home row when you use the navigation keys (Arrows, Home/End, PgUp/PgDn).
Cool - I totally missed this thread. That is indeed a very interesting concept. It would be something I'd be welling to try. In the same line, I like how the Poker I works too.
And you know what? I'm currently using SpaceFN on a Poker I. It's one of the best keyboards for SpaceFN at this time, just because it has an almost standard layout.
And you know what? I'm currently using SpaceFN on a Poker I. It's one of the best keyboards for SpaceFN at this time, just because it has an almost standard layout.
I'll lookup the simulation software and try it. (Did you made a script for Autohotkey?)
Wanna swap your Poker I with my Pure Pro? I just posted it in the Classified.
Yes, that will be supported, along with a separate Delete key.There will be separate arrow keys. No need to go to the Fn layer for them.Excellent :D think you pretty much just guaranteed yourself at least one sale. <3
Edit: I'm kinda new to the whole collecting thing, didn't actually realize who you were Matias. Just took a look at your site. Excellent work with the other keyboards, so I can only assume that this 60% will also be high quality. My anticipation levels just went through the roof.
This (http://i.imgur.com/rr7hvMT.png) is what i'd consider my "perfect" keyboard(on MX Browns). I fully understand it would be impossible to mass-produce due to alienating practically everyone except me :p, but one could dream.
HNNNNG just realised, my layout is quite practically a KMAC Mini (http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/photo/3892160) minus the function keys(could manage without a R Fn & |\ key). What a shame I cant just buy one and cut the pcb.
On our 60%, you won't need the Fn key for very much, so it will only have one (on the left).
Est-ce que tu composes les combinaisons AltGR: ~ # { [ | ` \ ^ @ ] } sans regarder ton clavier et ou sans briser ta posture?
Est-ce que tu composes les combinaisons AltGR: ~ # { [ | ` \ ^ @ ] } sans regarder ton clavier et ou sans briser ta posture?
I chime in since this may interest you: I used to touch-type in AZERTY a long time ago (now I'm QWERTY only) and I did touch-type every single key, including all the AltGr combination and including the function keys too. Actually I've worked on an "otaku" IBM Model M for years (which a blank keys, without any writing on them).
The only way to be able to touch-type AltGr (when it's at the right of your spacebar -- not if you've remapped it somewhere else) + all the combo is to hit AltGr with your right-thumb.
For ~, # { and [ there's no real issue: that's 2,3,4 and 5 + AltGr... That's easy to reach (you use your right-hand to do AltGr and your left one for the combo).
Then | ` \ ^ @ ] and } can be touch-typed too, as long as you use your right-thumb to hit AltGr. I'm not going to say that's it's "convenient" but, to me, if you want to type fast you can't hunt & peck and must touch-type.
The problem if you try to hit AltGr with any other finger than your right thumb is that then there are keys which you cannot reach anymore with the "correct" finger. For example if you touch-type '0' with your pinky and 'à' (that would be left-shift + '0') with your pinky too, it makes no sense to then hit that same physical key to produce @ with anything else than your pinky (IIRC in french AZERTY 0, à and @ are all done with the '0' key). If you want to use another finger than your pinky to hit AltGr, then it's going to be very hard to reach 0 with your pinky. Same problem with the other fingers, besides your right thumb.
So on AZERTY you either use your right-thumb to hit AltGr or you accept that you'll never be touch-typing some characters. I was touch-typing everything (and I still am) so I got "used" to use nothing but my thumbs to hit Alt and AltGr.
For many reasons I decided years ago to switch to QWERTY: # { [ | \ being on AltGr being one of the reason (I don't care much about ']', '}' and ')' in these days and age of editors with autoclosing parentheses). Another reason is that both left-**** and enter are narrower on AZERTY: making them way more painful to reach (your fingers need to travel more up to the point where your hands move slightly more than on a QWERTY keyboard to reach these two keys and that quickly adds up). Another reason is the bigger choice of ANSI keyboards / keycaps set. So I dropped ISO and turned to ANSI.
So now I'm exclusively using QWERTY (but with an Alt that acts as an additional modifier, giving me arrow keys on {IJKL}, Home, End, Escape and all the french characters conveniently located). I do still touch-type everything.
The "thumbs to press Alt's" is the reason I'm now considering 60% keyboards with smaller spacebar like the japanese HHKB or the KBT Pure Pro (or maybe the Filco minila). I really wish more manufacturers would create keyboards with tinier spacebars: it's pretty much an accepted in the ergonomic-keyboard world that thumbs are very useful to hit modifiers. Yet for "regular" keyboards we're pretty much stuck with 6x, 7x and bigger spacebars :(
There is such a thing as "too small"
I think your Tactile Mini Pro is perfect. It actually can't get any smaller, otherwise you'll have to accept trade offs.
Trade offs I don't like:
- function layer - NO. I know enough key combinations with ctrl/alt/meta thank you very much
- missing F1-F12 keys - I don't see how you can have these without a function layer
- shorten left shift to fit arrow keys - Do not do this! I've done this on my own custom keyboard (http://pyrolistical.github.io/blog/2012/08/11/full-custom-keypoard/). I kept hitting the up arrow with my pinky and is the main reason why I don't use that keyboard today
Your Tactile Mini Pro is already the smallest 10keyless there is, its small enough.
I disagree.
...
There is such a thing as "too small"
I think your Tactile Mini Pro is perfect. It actually can't get any smaller, otherwise you'll have to accept trade offs.
Trade offs I don't like:
- function layer - NO. I know enough key combinations with ctrl/alt/meta thank you very much
- missing F1-F12 keys - I don't see how you can have these without a function layer
- shorten left shift to fit arrow keys - Do not do this! I've done this on my own custom keyboard (http://pyrolistical.github.io/blog/2012/08/11/full-custom-keypoard/). I kept hitting the up arrow with my pinky and is the main reason why I don't use that keyboard today
Your Tactile Mini Pro is already the smallest 10keyless there is, its small enough.
I disagree.
TKL still contains so many redundant/rarely used keys. Print Screen/System Request, Pause/Break (which no longer serves any purpose), Scroll Lock (Ctrl+Up/Down or Page Up/Down do the same thing really), Insert (occasionally useful).
Missing F-keys? Is that really a massive issue? How often do you use them really? Enough that you could make do with holding another key to operate it? Probably.
Function Layer? This should never be an issue but keyboard companies always make it one. On a function layer you only need the keys that you would be missing from a TKL.
That means:
- Insert
- System Request (REISUB makes this pretty useful)
- Function Row, just put this on the number row!
- Arrow Keys. In an inverted T on ESDF please.
- Page Up/Down, Home, End. In an inverted T on IJKL please.
- ~` (Or ¬`| on UK layout) In its usual position as that key should be Escape in normal use.
Split Backspace to be Backspace and Delete.
Get rid of Caps Lock, replace it with Control. Put the function keys where the control keys were.
Done.
I'll just leave this here...Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/LDyzbk5.png)
Apologies for the terrible picture but basically that.
There is such a thing as "too small"
I think your Tactile Mini Pro is perfect. It actually can't get any smaller, otherwise you'll have to accept trade offs.
Trade offs I don't like:
- function layer - NO. I know enough key combinations with ctrl/alt/meta thank you very much
- missing F1-F12 keys - I don't see how you can have these without a function layer
- shorten left shift to fit arrow keys - Do not do this! I've done this on my own custom keyboard (http://pyrolistical.github.io/blog/2012/08/11/full-custom-keypoard/). I kept hitting the up arrow with my pinky and is the main reason why I don't use that keyboard today
Your Tactile Mini Pro is already the smallest 10keyless there is, its small enough.
I disagree.
TKL still contains so many redundant/rarely used keys. Print Screen/System Request, Pause/Break (which no longer serves any purpose), Scroll Lock (Ctrl+Up/Down or Page Up/Down do the same thing really), Insert (occasionally useful).
Missing F-keys? Is that really a massive issue? How often do you use them really? Enough that you could make do with holding another key to operate it? Probably.
Function Layer? This should never be an issue but keyboard companies always make it one. On a function layer you only need the keys that you would be missing from a TKL.
That means:
- Insert
- System Request (REISUB makes this pretty useful)
- Function Row, just put this on the number row!
- Arrow Keys. In an inverted T on ESDF please.
- Page Up/Down, Home, End. In an inverted T on IJKL please.
- ~` (Or ¬`| on UK layout) In its usual position as that key should be Escape in normal use.
Split Backspace to be Backspace and Delete.
Get rid of Caps Lock, replace it with Control. Put the function keys where the control keys were.
Done.
I'll just leave this here...Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/LDyzbk5.png)
Apologies for the terrible picture but basically that.
gropingmantis,
Corrected your layout :
Arrow Keys. In an inverted T on ESDF please. [Instead of RDFG]
Page Up/Down, Home, End. In an inverted T on IJKL please. [Instead of OKL;]
Maybe you could just use SpaceFN, then?spaceFN is something I have looked at intently but personally I will be using the split right shift to have an MX lock for fn lock which will be super useful for using arrow keys for navigation for those programs that do not have a vi/vim navigation plugin.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51069.msg1121957#msg1121957
60% for life babyyyyyyyyyy :pDo you game at all dustin? Just wondering if it gets it your way at any times. 60% that is (http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/sillyp1.gif)
Do you game at all dustin? Just wondering if it gets it your way at any times. 60% that isShow Image(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/sillyp1.gif)
Once i get my HHKB i'm a tiny bit worried about having to use two hands to hit like F1-F3 since my hands are just a little too small to be able to hit all the f keys with my left hand. So i would have to take my right hand off the mouse to hit the F1-F3 keys. But i'm guessing it won't bother me too much after i have used it for a while.Do you game at all dustin? Just wondering if it gets it your way at any times. 60% that isShow Image(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/sillyp1.gif)
60% is great for gaming imo. I play Arma 3 which uses I think all keys on a standard sized keyboard (including the Windows keys sometimes), but you usually just need a few of them; I think that is the case for many games. They offer keybindings for everything but in the end you barely use more than a few. I have two thumb buttons on my mouse (scope mode and view mode) and I know where page up/down (zeroing) is on the function layer - that's really all I need.
http://i.imgur.com/szQhRbQ.png :p
you can swap :) layout still trialhttp://i.imgur.com/szQhRbQ.png :p
Caps lock bigger than left shift? No thanks :))
60% means more room on the desk for a mouse.
Nothing worse than trying to spin around to the left, and the mouse hits the side of the larger keyboard.
I would say 87 key is the way to go even then. Unless you use the num pad ALOT.60% means more room on the desk for a mouse.
Nothing worse than trying to spin around to the left, and the mouse hits the side of the larger keyboard.
If you're stuck on a tiny desk with little to no available space than a 60% sized keyboard makes sense. If you have a 3 x 6 meter desk then it's ludicrous to have a tiny 60%, instead any 104 key is highly desired.
I would say 87 key is the way to go even then. Unless you use the num pad ALOT.60% means more room on the desk for a mouse.
Nothing worse than trying to spin around to the left, and the mouse hits the side of the larger keyboard.
If you're stuck on a tiny desk with little to no available space than a 60% sized keyboard makes sense. If you have a 3 x 6 meter desk then it's ludicrous to have a tiny 60%, instead any 104 key is highly desired.
Even though i have quite a large desk i'm getting a HHKB just because i like 60% keyboards.
If you're stuck on a tiny desk with little to no available space than a 60% sized keyboard makes sense. If you have a 3 x 6 meter desk then it's ludicrous to have a tiny 60%, instead any 104 key is highly desired.
Been trying to get my head around why people like 60% keyboards so much.
Is it more than just the size?
Arrow keys would seem to be a problem, but perhaps I'm wrong about that. You also sacrifice PgUp, PgDn, Home, and End.
Are they more popular with PC users than Mac? Or are they more a Linux thing?
What makes a great 60% keyboard?
It's precisely these kind of things that make a big part of the attraction for 60% boards: it's about minimizing hand movements, not about maximizing space.
All you need to do is look at all the people posting their (physical) desktops in the various threads on the subject: there are a lot of (right-handed) people with big desks and 60% keyboards.
I never really understood the attraction myself, personally I would take the TKL over the 60% any day
I never really understood the attraction myself, personally I would take the TKL over the 60% any day
Doesn't really make too much sense to have a 60% in my opinion, a TKL is already pretty small, enough to fit in a small backpack easily.
If you can't bring a TKL, you probably can't bring a laptop..
I never really understood the attraction myself, personally I would take the TKL over the 60% any day
Doesn't really make too much sense to have a 60% in my opinion, a TKL is already pretty small, enough to fit in a small backpack easily.
If you can't bring a TKL, you probably can't bring a laptop..
'If you can't bring a TKL, you probably can't bring a laptop'
+1
T-shirt worthy
Doesn't really make too much sense to have a 60% in my opinion, a TKL is already pretty small, enough to fit in a small backpack easily.
If you can't bring a TKL, you probably can't bring a laptop..
what if you need to bring both?
I never really understood the attraction myself, personally I would take the TKL over the 60% any day
Doesn't really make too much sense to have a 60% in my opinion, a TKL is already pretty small, enough to fit in a small backpack easily.
If you can't bring a TKL, you probably can't bring a laptop..
what if you need to bring both?
A lot of laptops nowadays are smaller than a TKL, at least mine is, so a 60% board makes sense.
Also, a 60% is the same as a full size board for most typing, everything is in the same place, including numbers and symbols. When you have to really reach for other keys (F-keys) or move your hand position (Arrows, edit and numpad) you may as well use a layer and keep your home row position (F-keys on top row, embedded numpad on right, edit and arrows on left perhaps), so 60% is ideal, IMO.
I am starting to like smaller and smaller boards and would love to try a 40%, but I suspect it will be a little too much work on the function layers to be really productive for me, although I love using my 48-key ergo board, so who knows?
As an aside, although I am very used to the normal arrows and edits area on a full size or TKL, I quite like the idea of using ESDF as arrows, W as home, R as end, T as PgUp, G as PgDn, maybe A as del on a 60%.
A lot of laptops nowadays are smaller than a TKL, at least mine is, so a 60% board makes sense.
Also, a 60% is the same as a full size board for most typing, everything is in the same place, including numbers and symbols. When you have to really reach for other keys (F-keys) or move your hand position (Arrows, edit and numpad) you may as well use a layer and keep your home row position (F-keys on top row, embedded numpad on right, edit and arrows on left perhaps), so 60% is ideal, IMO.
I am starting to like smaller and smaller boards and would love to try a 40%, but I suspect it will be a little too much work on the function layers to be really productive for me, although I love using my 48-key ergo board, so who knows?
As an aside, although I am very used to the normal arrows and edits area on a full size or TKL, I quite like the idea of using ESDF as arrows, W as home, R as end, T as PgUp, G as PgDn, maybe A as del on a 60%.
Could you show me which 60% you use? Because 60% is the furthest departure from standard layout that exists other than 40%, and I'd be surprised to find one having everything in the same place. It couldn't have arrows, but perhaps it's just a block shape with all the base keys?
"Arrow keys would seem to be a problem, but perhaps I'm wrong about that. You also sacrifice PgUp, PgDn, Home, and End."
I've never used any of those keys in my life, hence why I got myself a 60% board. It's not something that is optimal for everything imo, like MMOs for example, but the fact that the keyboard is so small makes it a really cool keyboard for me at least.
I've never used any of those keys in my life, hence why I got myself a 60% board. It's not something that is optimal for everything imo, like MMOs for example, but the fact that the keyboard is so small makes it a really cool keyboard for me at least.
"Arrow keys would seem to be a problem, but perhaps I'm wrong about that. You also sacrifice PgUp, PgDn, Home, and End."
I've never used any of those keys in my life, hence why I got myself a 60% board. It's not something that is optimal for everything imo, like MMOs for example, but the fact that the keyboard is so small makes it a really cool keyboard for me at least.
wat
The HHKB is on top of my Macbook Air and I'm drinking a Cappuccino in a MacDonald's as I write this.Nice. You no doubt look like a geek there :D
I've never used any of those keys in my life, hence why I got myself a 60% board. It's not something that is optimal for everything imo, like MMOs for example, but the fact that the keyboard is so small makes it a really cool keyboard for me at least.
That is a bold statement. I can imagine the 6 pack, but the arrow keys? Not even once in your life (coupled with the fact that you own multiple keyboards with those keys)?
I try to use vim mode in pretty much everything I use (IDEs, browser, shell) and it's more natural to me than arrow keys. But still I have to use the arrow keys from time to time for different things."Arrow keys would seem to be a problem, but perhaps I'm wrong about that. You also sacrifice PgUp, PgDn, Home, and End."
I've never used any of those keys in my life, hence why I got myself a 60% board. It's not something that is optimal for everything imo, like MMOs for example, but the fact that the keyboard is so small makes it a really cool keyboard for me at least.
wat
+1
I've never used any of those keys in my life, hence why I got myself a 60% board. It's not something that is optimal for everything imo, like MMOs for example, but the fact that the keyboard is so small makes it a really cool keyboard for me at least.
That is a bold statement. I can imagine the 6 pack, but the arrow keys? Not even once in your life (coupled with the fact that you own multiple keyboards with those keys)?
I try to use vim mode in pretty much everything I use (IDEs, browser, shell) and it's more natural to me than arrow keys. But still I have to use the arrow keys from time to time for different things."Arrow keys would seem to be a problem, but perhaps I'm wrong about that. You also sacrifice PgUp, PgDn, Home, and End."
I've never used any of those keys in my life, hence why I got myself a 60% board. It's not something that is optimal for everything imo, like MMOs for example, but the fact that the keyboard is so small makes it a really cool keyboard for me at least.
wat
+1
Wut? What on earth should I use my arrow keys for and F-keys for? I have a mouse.
I've never used any of those keys in my life, hence why I got myself a 60% board. It's not something that is optimal for everything imo, like MMOs for example, but the fact that the keyboard is so small makes it a really cool keyboard for me at least.
That is a bold statement. I can imagine the 6 pack, but the arrow keys? Not even once in your life (coupled with the fact that you own multiple keyboards with those keys)?
I try to use vim mode in pretty much everything I use (IDEs, browser, shell) and it's more natural to me than arrow keys. But still I have to use the arrow keys from time to time for different things."Arrow keys would seem to be a problem, but perhaps I'm wrong about that. You also sacrifice PgUp, PgDn, Home, and End."
I've never used any of those keys in my life, hence why I got myself a 60% board. It's not something that is optimal for everything imo, like MMOs for example, but the fact that the keyboard is so small makes it a really cool keyboard for me at least.
wat
+1
Wut? What on earth should I use my arrow keys for and F-keys for? I have a mouse.
If you point and click 100% of the time even in text editors, then I apologize for making any assumptions about your usage pattern. But if that's the case then I would strongly recommend using your keyboard more, and you can thank me later.
The HHKB is on top of my Macbook Air and I'm drinking a Cappuccino in a MacDonald's as I write this.Nice. You no doubt look like a geek there :D
And I can predict you need this hack or Bluetooth mod! :)Show Image(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/4002/201011011683.jpg)
I've never used any of those keys in my life, hence why I got myself a 60% board. It's not something that is optimal for everything imo, like MMOs for example, but the fact that the keyboard is so small makes it a really cool keyboard for me at least.
That is a bold statement. I can imagine the 6 pack, but the arrow keys? Not even once in your life (coupled with the fact that you own multiple keyboards with those keys)?
I try to use vim mode in pretty much everything I use (IDEs, browser, shell) and it's more natural to me than arrow keys. But still I have to use the arrow keys from time to time for different things."Arrow keys would seem to be a problem, but perhaps I'm wrong about that. You also sacrifice PgUp, PgDn, Home, and End."
I've never used any of those keys in my life, hence why I got myself a 60% board. It's not something that is optimal for everything imo, like MMOs for example, but the fact that the keyboard is so small makes it a really cool keyboard for me at least.
wat
+1
Wut? What on earth should I use my arrow keys for and F-keys for? I have a mouse.
If you point and click 100% of the time even in text editors, then I apologize for making any assumptions about your usage pattern. But if that's the case then I would strongly recommend using your keyboard more, and you can thank me later.
This in its entirety. I don't know what you're thinking if you're attempting to use your mouse to select things. but you obviously don't use keyboards much if you don't even use the nav keys.
I've never used any of those keys in my life, hence why I got myself a 60% board. It's not something that is optimal for everything imo, like MMOs for example, but the fact that the keyboard is so small makes it a really cool keyboard for me at least.
That is a bold statement. I can imagine the 6 pack, but the arrow keys? Not even once in your life (coupled with the fact that you own multiple keyboards with those keys)?
I try to use vim mode in pretty much everything I use (IDEs, browser, shell) and it's more natural to me than arrow keys. But still I have to use the arrow keys from time to time for different things."Arrow keys would seem to be a problem, but perhaps I'm wrong about that. You also sacrifice PgUp, PgDn, Home, and End."
I've never used any of those keys in my life, hence why I got myself a 60% board. It's not something that is optimal for everything imo, like MMOs for example, but the fact that the keyboard is so small makes it a really cool keyboard for me at least.
wat
+1
Wut? What on earth should I use my arrow keys for and F-keys for? I have a mouse.
If you point and click 100% of the time even in text editors, then I apologize for making any assumptions about your usage pattern. But if that's the case then I would strongly recommend using your keyboard more, and you can thank me later.
This in its entirety. I don't know what you're thinking if you're attempting to use your mouse to select things. but you obviously don't use keyboards much if you don't even use the nav keys.
I've had a PC for 11 years, but ok - you know best. =DDD
I've had a PC for 11 years, but ok - you know best. =DDD
I think you understand it was irony.
You are on a keyboard enthusiasts forum and you are almost bragging that you have never used Home, End, PgUp and PgDn in your entire life? Seriously?
It's like posting on a sports cars forum that you only use the first and second gears and have never felt any need for the other ones. :))
I've had a PC for 11 years, but ok - you know best. =DDD
I think you understand it was irony.
You are on a keyboard enthusiasts forum and you are almost bragging that you have never used Home, End, PgUp and PgDn in your entire life? Seriously?
It's like posting on a sports cars forum that you only use the first and second gears and have never felt any need for the other ones. :))
Almost bragging that I've never used Home, End, PgUp and PgDn in my entire life? Are you out of your mind? It's the reason I like 60% keyboards, because I don't feel the need to have those keys. Not gonna have this "discussion" LOL, actually the dumbest **** I've ever seen.
Leave him alone. In the first week when people learn to use a computer, they generally do not use these keys. Home, End, PgUp and PgDn are for advanced users.
Not once in my entire life have I ever used the 'a' key so my perfect board would have 86-keys.
edit: not once in my 'a'-key break-key life.
My bad, spicebar. Sometimes I get too harsh toward people who have no idea what they're doing but think they do. :thumb:
My bad, spicebar. Sometimes I get too harsh toward people who have no idea what they're doing but think they do. :thumb:
Don't be too hard on yourself then...
My bad, spicebar. Sometimes I get too harsh toward people who have no idea what they're doing but think they do. :thumb:
Don't be too hard on yourself then...
My bad, spicebar. Sometimes I get too harsh toward people who have no idea what they're doing but think they do. :thumb:
Don't be too hard on yourself then...
switching to a 60% actually made me use the six pack keys more. sounds dumb but i used one of my bottom switches to convert the win key into another fn key and so my left pinky uses that fn key and my right hand stays where it is to use the fn layer six pack. i dont know why the fn layer turns me more on than the actual keys but be it one way or another i would never want to miss those keyfunctions on a keyboard.
I've had a PC for 11 years, but ok - you know best. =DDD
I think you understand it was irony.
You are on a keyboard enthusiasts forum and you are almost bragging that you have never used Home, End, PgUp and PgDn in your entire life? Seriously?
It's like posting on a sports cars forum that you only use the first and second gears and have never felt any need for the other ones. :))
Almost bragging that I've never used Home, End, PgUp and PgDn in my entire life? Are you out of your mind? It's the reason I like 60% keyboards, because I don't feel the need to have those keys. Not gonna have this "discussion" LOL, actually the dumbest **** I've ever seen.
Trash talking members who are pointing out your behavior which is distasteful to almost everyone is a poor idea, I must say. Please calm yourself and realize that his point is entirely valid. Bragging about not doing anything just makes you seem incredibly full of it.Leave him alone. In the first week when people learn to use a computer, they generally do not use these keys. Home, End, PgUp and PgDn are for advanced users.
My bad, spicebar. Sometimes I get too harsh toward people who have no idea what they're doing but think they do. :thumb:
I've had a PC for 11 years, but ok - you know best. =DDD
I think you understand it was irony.
You are on a keyboard enthusiasts forum and you are almost bragging that you have never used Home, End, PgUp and PgDn in your entire life? Seriously?
It's like posting on a sports cars forum that you only use the first and second gears and have never felt any need for the other ones. :))
Almost bragging that I've never used Home, End, PgUp and PgDn in my entire life? Are you out of your mind? It's the reason I like 60% keyboards, because I don't feel the need to have those keys. Not gonna have this "discussion" LOL, actually the dumbest **** I've ever seen.
Trash talking members who are pointing out your behavior which is distasteful to almost everyone is a poor idea, I must say. Please calm yourself and realize that his point is entirely valid. Bragging about not doing anything just makes you seem incredibly full of it.Leave him alone. In the first week when people learn to use a computer, they generally do not use these keys. Home, End, PgUp and PgDn are for advanced users.
My bad, spicebar. Sometimes I get too harsh toward people who have no idea what they're doing but think they do. :thumb:
You know you're the one being obnoxious right? Maybe you can't see it because of your ignorance, hell do I know.
So here's some of your posts.
"My bad, spicebar. Sometimes I get too harsh toward people who have no idea what they're doing but think they do." Thinking you are better than anyone evidence and admitting to being obnoxious.
"This in its entirety. I don't know what you're thinking if you're attempting to use your mouse to select things. but you obviously don't use keyboards much if you don't even use the nav keys" Implying that I don't use my keyboard a lot because I don't use the nav keys. Your logic is flawed.
"wat" That's what you said when I explained why I like 60% kb's because I said I never use the 6-pack keys etc.
"I'm assuming you would know, you pathetic little wanker. Paying $5 of your parents' hard earned money must be really difficult for you, good thing that we can be nice to people far less fortunate and hoping to afford a $10 keyboard rather than $250 by making them work at a school instead of learning" Calling him a "pathetic little wanker", really? Oh well, I know you're only 16 so you have time to grow.
You seem like a likeable guy. New to mechanical keyboards but knows everything about them none the less. :^)
Now, stop posting if you don't have anything to contribute to the topic at hand. Not sure why you love to derail threads so much.
I've had a PC for 11 years, but ok - you know best. =DDD
I think you understand it was irony.
You are on a keyboard enthusiasts forum and you are almost bragging that you have never used Home, End, PgUp and PgDn in your entire life? Seriously?
It's like posting on a sports cars forum that you only use the first and second gears and have never felt any need for the other ones. :))
Almost bragging that I've never used Home, End, PgUp and PgDn in my entire life? Are you out of your mind? It's the reason I like 60% keyboards, because I don't feel the need to have those keys. Not gonna have this "discussion" LOL, actually the dumbest **** I've ever seen.
Trash talking members who are pointing out your behavior which is distasteful to almost everyone is a poor idea, I must say. Please calm yourself and realize that his point is entirely valid. Bragging about not doing anything just makes you seem incredibly full of it.Leave him alone. In the first week when people learn to use a computer, they generally do not use these keys. Home, End, PgUp and PgDn are for advanced users.
My bad, spicebar. Sometimes I get too harsh toward people who have no idea what they're doing but think they do. :thumb:
You know you're the one being obnoxious right? Maybe you can't see it because of your ignorance, hell do I know.
So here's some of your posts.
"My bad, spicebar. Sometimes I get too harsh toward people who have no idea what they're doing but think they do." Thinking you are better than anyone evidence and admitting to being obnoxious.
"This in its entirety. I don't know what you're thinking if you're attempting to use your mouse to select things. but you obviously don't use keyboards much if you don't even use the nav keys" Implying that I don't use my keyboard a lot because I don't use the nav keys. Your logic is flawed.
"wat" That's what you said when I explained why I like 60% kb's because I said I never use the 6-pack keys etc.
"I'm assuming you would know, you pathetic little wanker. Paying $5 of your parents' hard earned money must be really difficult for you, good thing that we can be nice to people far less fortunate and hoping to afford a $10 keyboard rather than $250 by making them work at a school instead of learning" Calling him a "pathetic little wanker", really? Oh well, I know you're only 16 so you have time to grow.
You seem like a likeable guy. New to mechanical keyboards but knows everything about them none the less. :^)
Now, stop posting if you don't have anything to contribute to the topic at hand. Not sure why you love to derail threads so much.
OK, so back to the topic.
Maybe it's just a misunderstanding.
When you are in the middle of a line of text and you want to fix a typo at the beginning of the line, how do you move the cursor there?
Do you use the mouse? Do you keep the left arrow key pressed? Do you use another trick?
I've had a PC for 11 years, but ok - you know best. =DDD
I think you understand it was irony.
You are on a keyboard enthusiasts forum and you are almost bragging that you have never used Home, End, PgUp and PgDn in your entire life? Seriously?
It's like posting on a sports cars forum that you only use the first and second gears and have never felt any need for the other ones. :))
Almost bragging that I've never used Home, End, PgUp and PgDn in my entire life? Are you out of your mind? It's the reason I like 60% keyboards, because I don't feel the need to have those keys. Not gonna have this "discussion" LOL, actually the dumbest **** I've ever seen.
Trash talking members who are pointing out your behavior which is distasteful to almost everyone is a poor idea, I must say. Please calm yourself and realize that his point is entirely valid. Bragging about not doing anything just makes you seem incredibly full of it.Leave him alone. In the first week when people learn to use a computer, they generally do not use these keys. Home, End, PgUp and PgDn are for advanced users.
My bad, spicebar. Sometimes I get too harsh toward people who have no idea what they're doing but think they do. :thumb:
You know you're the one being obnoxious right? Maybe you can't see it because of your ignorance, hell do I know.
So here's some of your posts.
"My bad, spicebar. Sometimes I get too harsh toward people who have no idea what they're doing but think they do." Thinking you are better than anyone evidence and admitting to being obnoxious.
"This in its entirety. I don't know what you're thinking if you're attempting to use your mouse to select things. but you obviously don't use keyboards much if you don't even use the nav keys" Implying that I don't use my keyboard a lot because I don't use the nav keys. Your logic is flawed.
"wat" That's what you said when I explained why I like 60% kb's because I said I never use the 6-pack keys etc.
"I'm assuming you would know, you pathetic little wanker. Paying $5 of your parents' hard earned money must be really difficult for you, good thing that we can be nice to people far less fortunate and hoping to afford a $10 keyboard rather than $250 by making them work at a school instead of learning" Calling him a "pathetic little wanker", really? Oh well, I know you're only 16 so you have time to grow.
You seem like a likeable guy. New to mechanical keyboards but knows everything about them none the less. :^)
Now, stop posting if you don't have anything to contribute to the topic at hand. Not sure why you love to derail threads so much.
OK, so back to the topic.
Maybe it's just a misunderstanding.
When you are in the middle of a line of text and you want to fix a typo at the beginning of the line, how do you move the cursor there?
Do you use the mouse? Do you keep the left arrow key pressed? Do you use another trick?
Yeah, I've always used the mouse in those situations. :P
I've had a PC for 11 years, but ok - you know best. =DDD
I think you understand it was irony.
You are on a keyboard enthusiasts forum and you are almost bragging that you have never used Home, End, PgUp and PgDn in your entire life? Seriously?
It's like posting on a sports cars forum that you only use the first and second gears and have never felt any need for the other ones. :))
Almost bragging that I've never used Home, End, PgUp and PgDn in my entire life? Are you out of your mind? It's the reason I like 60% keyboards, because I don't feel the need to have those keys. Not gonna have this "discussion" LOL, actually the dumbest **** I've ever seen.
Trash talking members who are pointing out your behavior which is distasteful to almost everyone is a poor idea, I must say. Please calm yourself and realize that his point is entirely valid. Bragging about not doing anything just makes you seem incredibly full of it.Leave him alone. In the first week when people learn to use a computer, they generally do not use these keys. Home, End, PgUp and PgDn are for advanced users.
My bad, spicebar. Sometimes I get too harsh toward people who have no idea what they're doing but think they do. :thumb:
You know you're the one being obnoxious right? Maybe you can't see it because of your ignorance, hell do I know.
So here's some of your posts.
"My bad, spicebar. Sometimes I get too harsh toward people who have no idea what they're doing but think they do." Thinking you are better than anyone evidence and admitting to being obnoxious.
"This in its entirety. I don't know what you're thinking if you're attempting to use your mouse to select things. but you obviously don't use keyboards much if you don't even use the nav keys" Implying that I don't use my keyboard a lot because I don't use the nav keys. Your logic is flawed.
"wat" That's what you said when I explained why I like 60% kb's because I said I never use the 6-pack keys etc.
"I'm assuming you would know, you pathetic little wanker. Paying $5 of your parents' hard earned money must be really difficult for you, good thing that we can be nice to people far less fortunate and hoping to afford a $10 keyboard rather than $250 by making them work at a school instead of learning" Calling him a "pathetic little wanker", really? Oh well, I know you're only 16 so you have time to grow.
You seem like a likeable guy. New to mechanical keyboards but knows everything about them none the less. :^)
Now, stop posting if you don't have anything to contribute to the topic at hand. Not sure why you love to derail threads so much.
OK, so back to the topic.
Maybe it's just a misunderstanding.
When you are in the middle of a line of text and you want to fix a typo at the beginning of the line, how do you move the cursor there?
Do you use the mouse? Do you keep the left arrow key pressed? Do you use another trick?
Yeah, I've always used the mouse in those situations. :P
I must say you are pretty unique, at least I haven't met people who do it this way. But there is no need to argue about personal preferences. What would be interesting is to understand why you are using your mouse in this situation. Have you tried to analyse your preference? How did it come to be? I am sure you have noticed people around you used different technique. Again to each it's own, but it would be nice to understand you better.
I've had a PC for 11 years, but ok - you know best. =DDD
I think you understand it was irony.
You are on a keyboard enthusiasts forum and you are almost bragging that you have never used Home, End, PgUp and PgDn in your entire life? Seriously?
It's like posting on a sports cars forum that you only use the first and second gears and have never felt any need for the other ones. :))
Almost bragging that I've never used Home, End, PgUp and PgDn in my entire life? Are you out of your mind? It's the reason I like 60% keyboards, because I don't feel the need to have those keys. Not gonna have this "discussion" LOL, actually the dumbest **** I've ever seen.
Trash talking members who are pointing out your behavior which is distasteful to almost everyone is a poor idea, I must say. Please calm yourself and realize that his point is entirely valid. Bragging about not doing anything just makes you seem incredibly full of it.Leave him alone. In the first week when people learn to use a computer, they generally do not use these keys. Home, End, PgUp and PgDn are for advanced users.
My bad, spicebar. Sometimes I get too harsh toward people who have no idea what they're doing but think they do. :thumb:
You know you're the one being obnoxious right? Maybe you can't see it because of your ignorance, hell do I know.
So here's some of your posts.
"My bad, spicebar. Sometimes I get too harsh toward people who have no idea what they're doing but think they do." Thinking you are better than anyone evidence and admitting to being obnoxious.
"This in its entirety. I don't know what you're thinking if you're attempting to use your mouse to select things. but you obviously don't use keyboards much if you don't even use the nav keys" Implying that I don't use my keyboard a lot because I don't use the nav keys. Your logic is flawed.
"wat" That's what you said when I explained why I like 60% kb's because I said I never use the 6-pack keys etc.
"I'm assuming you would know, you pathetic little wanker. Paying $5 of your parents' hard earned money must be really difficult for you, good thing that we can be nice to people far less fortunate and hoping to afford a $10 keyboard rather than $250 by making them work at a school instead of learning" Calling him a "pathetic little wanker", really? Oh well, I know you're only 16 so you have time to grow.
You seem like a likeable guy. New to mechanical keyboards but knows everything about them none the less. :^)
Now, stop posting if you don't have anything to contribute to the topic at hand. Not sure why you love to derail threads so much.
OK, so back to the topic.
Maybe it's just a misunderstanding.
When you are in the middle of a line of text and you want to fix a typo at the beginning of the line, how do you move the cursor there?
Do you use the mouse? Do you keep the left arrow key pressed? Do you use another trick?
Yeah, I've always used the mouse in those situations. :P
I must say you are pretty unique, at least I haven't met people who do it this way. But there is no need to argue about personal preferences. What would be interesting is to understand why you are using your mouse in this situation. Have you tried to analyse your preference? How did it come to be? I am sure you have noticed people around you used different technique. Again to each it's own, but it would be nice to understand you better.
Can't say I have seen/noticed people using their arrow keys/nav keys on the LANs I've been to. Using the nav/arrow keys just isn't natural for me. It actually feels pretty awkward when I move my hands down to type on my arrow keys, I have to bend my wrists in ways that hurts. I position my keyboard kinda weird btw, I push the front side of my keyboard towards my monitor, and the other side naturally goes downwards. Not sure if you understand that explanation. :P It all comes down to personal preferences. There's even a professional League of Legends player that plays with a trackball instead of a regular mouse, so I don't see why I can't use my mouse to select things. =)
I've had a PC for 11 years, but ok - you know best. =DDD
I think you understand it was irony.
You are on a keyboard enthusiasts forum and you are almost bragging that you have never used Home, End, PgUp and PgDn in your entire life? Seriously?
It's like posting on a sports cars forum that you only use the first and second gears and have never felt any need for the other ones. :))
Almost bragging that I've never used Home, End, PgUp and PgDn in my entire life? Are you out of your mind? It's the reason I like 60% keyboards, because I don't feel the need to have those keys. Not gonna have this "discussion" LOL, actually the dumbest **** I've ever seen.
Trash talking members who are pointing out your behavior which is distasteful to almost everyone is a poor idea, I must say. Please calm yourself and realize that his point is entirely valid. Bragging about not doing anything just makes you seem incredibly full of it.Leave him alone. In the first week when people learn to use a computer, they generally do not use these keys. Home, End, PgUp and PgDn are for advanced users.
My bad, spicebar. Sometimes I get too harsh toward people who have no idea what they're doing but think they do. :thumb:
You know you're the one being obnoxious right? Maybe you can't see it because of your ignorance, hell do I know.
So here's some of your posts.
"My bad, spicebar. Sometimes I get too harsh toward people who have no idea what they're doing but think they do." Thinking you are better than anyone evidence and admitting to being obnoxious.
"This in its entirety. I don't know what you're thinking if you're attempting to use your mouse to select things. but you obviously don't use keyboards much if you don't even use the nav keys" Implying that I don't use my keyboard a lot because I don't use the nav keys. Your logic is flawed.
"wat" That's what you said when I explained why I like 60% kb's because I said I never use the 6-pack keys etc.
"I'm assuming you would know, you pathetic little wanker. Paying $5 of your parents' hard earned money must be really difficult for you, good thing that we can be nice to people far less fortunate and hoping to afford a $10 keyboard rather than $250 by making them work at a school instead of learning" Calling him a "pathetic little wanker", really? Oh well, I know you're only 16 so you have time to grow.
You seem like a likeable guy. New to mechanical keyboards but knows everything about them none the less. :^)
Now, stop posting if you don't have anything to contribute to the topic at hand. Not sure why you love to derail threads so much.
OK, so back to the topic.
Maybe it's just a misunderstanding.
When you are in the middle of a line of text and you want to fix a typo at the beginning of the line, how do you move the cursor there?
Do you use the mouse? Do you keep the left arrow key pressed? Do you use another trick?
Yeah, I've always used the mouse in those situations. :P
I must say you are pretty unique, at least I haven't met people who do it this way. But there is no need to argue about personal preferences. What would be interesting is to understand why you are using your mouse in this situation. Have you tried to analyse your preference? How did it come to be? I am sure you have noticed people around you used different technique. Again to each it's own, but it would be nice to understand you better.
Can't say I have seen/noticed people using their arrow keys/nav keys on the LANs I've been to. Using the nav/arrow keys just isn't natural for me. It actually feels pretty awkward when I move my hands down to type on my arrow keys, I have to bend my wrists in ways that hurts. I position my keyboard kinda weird btw, I push the front side of my keyboard towards my monitor, and the other side naturally goes downwards. Not sure if you understand that explanation. :P It all comes down to personal preferences. There's even a professional League of Legends player that plays with a trackball instead of a regular mouse, so I don't see why I can't use my mouse to select things. =)
OK, so back to the topic.
Maybe it's just a misunderstanding.
When you are in the middle of a line of text and you want to fix a typo at the beginning of the line, how do you move the cursor there?
Do you use the mouse? Do you keep the left arrow key pressed? Do you use another trick?
Yeah, I've always used the mouse in those situations. :P
I must say you are pretty unique, at least I haven't met people who do it this way. But there is no need to argue about personal preferences. What would be interesting is to understand why you are using your mouse in this situation. Have you tried to analyse your preference? How did it come to be? I am sure you have noticed people around you used different technique. Again to each it's own, but it would be nice to understand you better.
Can't say I have seen/noticed people using their arrow keys/nav keys on the LANs I've been to. Using the nav/arrow keys just isn't natural for me. It actually feels pretty awkward when I move my hands down to type on my arrow keys, I have to bend my wrists in ways that hurts. I position my keyboard kinda weird btw, I push the front side of my keyboard towards my monitor, and the other side naturally goes downwards. Not sure if you understand that explanation. :P It all comes down to personal preferences. There's even a professional League of Legends player that plays with a trackball instead of a regular mouse, so I don't see why I can't use my mouse to select things. =)
It's fine if you prefer using the mouse, but we are talking about efficiency here. I can't imagine a scenario where it will be faster to grab your mouse than to use the arrow keys. Do you use your mouse to the left of your keyboard?
I am not sure if I follow your keyboard arrangement. Why would moving your right hand from the home row (assuming QWERTY) to the arrow keys bend your wrist?
Any mac users here? I moved to mac when I was about eight years old, and I never use pgup, pgdown, home, or end because I use command + arrow keys.
Personally I think this seems better because you have to move your fingers less...
Any mac users here? I moved to mac when I was about eight years old, and I never use pgup, pgdown, home, or end because I use command + arrow keys.
Personally I think this seems better because you have to move your fingers less...
Any mac users here? I moved to mac when I was about eight years old, and I never use pgup, pgdown, home, or end because I use command + arrow keys.
Personally I think this seems better because you have to move your fingers less...
I would think that moving your fingers up to the nav keys is about as much movement as to the FN+arrow keys, and dislike the idea of using two keys for one. If I wanted to read a story, for instance, I would rather just be able to lazily move through the pages, only using a single hand, rather than using both every time.
He's definitely not unique in using his mouse that way (to edit back in a line)....A LOT of users will do that. As inefficient as that might seem in some cases, it is easier to learn and use for many and in some cases, just more efficient (imagine if you need to go 3 lines up, 20 characters over). [
there is a situation where the mouse is insufficient:
if you dual boot say Windows 7 and Linux mint, you can't select the alternate OS using a mouse. You gotta use the arrows for that.
Could you elaborate a bit more?
I'm a developer and I use home/end/page up/page down, a ton. I don't believe I could operate without them.
When I buy a laptop, I need to make sure that these keys are positioned efficiently or the computer will be practically unusable for me.
I also use arrow keys quite alot.
You mean it's mostly Cherry MX key-switch heaven here. Hence poor Matias can't compete with other rivals turning out Cherry-based keyboards. More's the pity because his ALPs switches are quite superb. Again though, very little options for coloured/customized ALPs key-caps available here at GH (unless someone's running a GB for them).
60% are ONLY popular here and no where else in society. Accountants, Pharmacists, Receptionists, Marketing Research, Data Entry/Processing, Engineers, Teachers as such require a full size keyboard. Hence for Matias, stick with the majority out there instead of focusing on a tiny minority here on Geekhack.
Interesting.
Hypothetically, if you could have a mechanical keyboard that was exactly the same size and layout as the Apple BT keyboard, would you go for it? Or would you chop off the function keys to make it smaller?
I'm also a developer and I never use home/end/pup/pdown, nor do I use arrow keys / fn keys a whole lot. This is probably because I've been using vim for the most part of the last 12 years. I just got used to the hjkl as arrows and never looked back. I also have vim mode plugins for everything. Every browser I use gets vim mode. I even use a vim mode plugin in my terminal (terminator is my preferred terminal emulator) via a plugin for zsh. I also like swapping control and caps lock, and having esc on the numbers row.
He's definitely not unique in using his mouse that way (to edit back in a line)....A LOT of users will do that. As inefficient as that might seem in some cases, it is easier to learn and use for many and in some cases, just more efficient (imagine if you need to go 3 lines up, 20 characters over). [
The claim was "I have never used them in my life". It's not about finding corner cases where it could be less awkward to use the mouse.
If you have never used Page Up or Page Down in your life (or some equivalent key combinations on some systems), it does not matter how long you have been using a computer, you're still a nOOb.
He's definitely not unique in using his mouse that way (to edit back in a line)....A LOT of users will do that. As inefficient as that might seem in some cases, it is easier to learn and use for many and in some cases, just more efficient (imagine if you need to go 3 lines up, 20 characters over). [
The claim was "I have never used them in my life". It's not about finding corner cases where it could be less awkward to use the mouse.
If you have never used Page Up or Page Down in your life (or some equivalent key combinations on some systems), it does not matter how long you have been using a computer, you're still a nOOb.
*Click* *Click* I just used my PgUp & PgDn, guess I'm as good as you now then, eh? ;]
He's definitely not unique in using his mouse that way (to edit back in a line)....A LOT of users will do that. As inefficient as that might seem in some cases, it is easier to learn and use for many and in some cases, just more efficient (imagine if you need to go 3 lines up, 20 characters over). [
The claim was "I have never used them in my life". It's not about finding corner cases where it could be less awkward to use the mouse.
If you have never used Page Up or Page Down in your life (or some equivalent key combinations on some systems), it does not matter how long you have been using a computer, you're still a nOOb.
*Click* *Click* I just used my PgUp & PgDn, guess I'm as good as you now then, eh? ;]
You are making progress at an incredible pace.
He's definitely not unique in using his mouse that way (to edit back in a line)....A LOT of users will do that. As inefficient as that might seem in some cases, it is easier to learn and use for many and in some cases, just more efficient (imagine if you need to go 3 lines up, 20 characters over). [
The claim was "I have never used them in my life". It's not about finding corner cases where it could be less awkward to use the mouse.
If you have never used Page Up or Page Down in your life (or some equivalent key combinations on some systems), it does not matter how long you have been using a computer, you're still a nOOb.
Have you read about the SpaceFN layout? I'm currently using it on a Poker that has been modified to implement SpaceFN in hardware, so I don't need to change the settings of my apps or use any plugin.
SpaceFN comes in several variants, one of which is IJKL (the one I use) and there is also an HJKL variant.
The thread about SpaceFN is here:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51069.msg1121957#msg1121957
You will find the HJKL variant near the end of the first page of the thread.
Have you read about the SpaceFN layout? I'm currently using it on a Poker that has been modified to implement SpaceFN in hardware, so I don't need to change the settings of my apps or use any plugin.
SpaceFN comes in several variants, one of which is IJKL (the one I use) and there is also an HJKL variant.
The thread about SpaceFN is here:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51069.msg1121957#msg1121957
You will find the HJKL variant near the end of the first page of the thread.
Looks interesting and I just might try it. Not sure if I would actually get any benefit from it though, I haven't used any of the keys on the "fn layer" in a whole while (to be honest I think I've never used the 6-pack since I started programming... arrow keys since I started on vim). I'm just to used to the vim way of life I guess. Even when I'm remotely connected to a server via ssh and I don't have my custom vim mode available, I can still use default linux terminal shortcuts to the cursor around sans arrow keys. For example: I use Ctrl+a and Ctrl+e to move to the beginning and end of a line respectively on a remote terminal. I guess I'm so used to the unix way of life that I've made it my mission to have everything I use right there close to the home row without needing to do any special stuff.
Actually I lied - I do use function keys at work. I use them to mute/unmute the speakers on my iMac.
One possible benefit is to be able to navigate with just one hand.
vim shortcuts use the Ctrl key. So you need two hands to use them.
With SpaceFN, you have a layout you are already used to, but need only one hand to navigate.
Another benefit is that you don't need to configure new apps to use the vim shortcuts: the keyboard (or the keyboard driver) does the job. I have the SpaceFN layout built in my keyboards in hardware, so it's immediately compatible with any new app I need to use.
If you had one, you could go to any computer, connect your keyboard, and from there it's vim shortcuts in every single app.
In any case, and even if it was not the initial intent, the SpaceFN layout shares a lot with the vim philosophy, and it can coexist without any problem with vim shortcuts.
there is a situation where the mouse is insufficient:
if you dual boot say Windows 7 and Linux mint, you can't select the alternate OS using a mouse. You gotta use the arrows for that.
Can't tab that?
One possible benefit is to be able to navigate with just one hand.
vim shortcuts use the Ctrl key. So you need two hands to use them.
With SpaceFN, you have a layout you are already used to, but need only one hand to navigate.
Another benefit is that you don't need to configure new apps to use the vim shortcuts: the keyboard (or the keyboard driver) does the job. I have the SpaceFN layout built in my keyboards in hardware, so it's immediately compatible with any new app I need to use.
If you had one, you could go to any computer, connect your keyboard, and from there it's vim shortcuts in every single app.
In any case, and even if it was not the initial intent, the SpaceFN layout shares a lot with the vim philosophy, and it can coexist without any problem with vim shortcuts.
Oh moving around is always a one hand operation in vim/vim mode plugins (since you're pretty much always on normal mode), don't need to press any modifiers for that :P
You do win by over 9000 on the second point though. Right now portability is not at it's best since I rely on machine configurations, though my dotfiles and vimrc is always a checkout or clone away. If I ever need to use a linux or mac machine as long as I have internet I can just download my confs and run a setup script I keep with the whole bundle if I need extra functionality. That being said, any time I need to use a windows PC I'm utterly screwed. Maybe this layout would be a nice way to keep all keyboard related functions in my keyboard regardless of OS. Anyways, thanks for the recommendation, I'll give the whole thread a read and perhaps try it out and see if it sticks.
Any updates on this 60% case for us yet Matias ?:P
So like this, then? Hmm.
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/48b46e2bfca09f2d7399e9b8f0a206c5
Not a full-size RShift, then, but still...
Yes, that's pretty close.I've got some ideas for making the layout a bit tighter in the bottom row, so RShift can remain full size, although it puts Insert and Delete in a dangerous location. This follows Dell and Lenovo's recent trend of putting PgUp and PgDn in the arrow cluster, although the argument could be made for swapping them with Home and End (because Home and End are left/right functions, PgUp and PgDn are up/down functions):
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/30ab986cc8b01a9e84c3a5cf98e7e889
We tried a layout like this, but it tested very badly.
Without the blank spaces on either side of Up Arrow, it's very difficult to feel your way around. You lose your bearings, and have to constantly look down at the keyboard -- very annoying.Really, it's a tradeoff no matter what you do.
Exactly correct.
So, given the choice, I'd rather do something that includes all keys in standard-ish positions, and keeps you out of the Fn layer as much as possible. That's what I meant by no compromises.
Matias, any updates on the 60% GB?
Not to add even more options, but why not make Caps position the tilde key, and put Caps on the FN layer? That way you don't have to mess with key sizes.
or held out for the Unicomp mini instead.
Matias, any updates on the 60% GB?
Sorry for the delayed reply. It's been a busy few months. I'd like to solicit more feedback from you all, if you'll indulge me on this...
We're aiming for something unique but not too strange. Mainly, I'm trying to decide how to deal with the Tilde vs. Esc key dilemma, and whether or not to include Nav keys vs. one-handed Fn+Arrow keys to do Home/End/PgUp/PgDown.
See below. Feel free to expound at length. :)
Do you prefer Option 1, 2, or 3 for the Esc/Tilde?
Do you prefer Option A or B for the Nav/Arrow keys?
Thanks!
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
For the Tilde vs Esc problem, you may have a look at my GuiFN layout:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57723.msg1313182#msg1313182
I believe there is actually no need for an additional key.
For the navigation cluster, I would recommend option A.
People who use their keyboard heavily for text editing need to do all kind of chords with Ctrl and Shift. Adding another key to chord with, just do to Home/End/PgUp/PgDn is a pain. It's a pain because there are already many chords with these keys (Ctrl-Home to go to the start of document, Ctrl-End for end of document, Shift-Home to select to start of line, and so on).
Your design allows you to have dedicated keys for Home/End/PgUp/PgDn, and it's a big advantage over most small keyboards. Don't screw up! :)
ISO (i.e. 1x left Shift and an extra key) please!
You're lucky that there isn't the question of compatibility with existing keycap sets. ^_^ Here's a suggestion many will hate: 1x Backspace (thus more space on the number row).
From the options you've posted, I like the 2A with a split spacebar the most. The number row aligned with the QWERTY row is actually awesome (many would probably hate it though, because it'd mess with their muscle memory), it makes touch typing more straightforward (at least that's my experience from symmetrical layouts).
How about something like this:
(Attachment Link)
You can index to the arrow cluster already from the bottom right corner, so you don't really need the gaps above the left and right arrows. It seems natural to me to use those spaces for Home and End, since those are the directions the cursor goes when you use them. Then you can have a "standard" top row, Esc, numbers, backspace.
On option 1/2/3, I like that you put a dedicated Del key on the keyboard... I also would put the ~ key on the FN layer and instead go for a more standard layout.
I'm not sure about how important the ~ is to 60% users
I'm not sure about how important the ~ is to 60% users
Been trying to get my head around why people like 60% keyboards so much.
Is it more than just the size?
Arrow keys would seem to be a problem, but perhaps I'm wrong about that. You also sacrifice PgUp, PgDn, Home, and End.
Are they more popular with PC users than Mac? Or are they more a Linux thing?
What makes a great 60% keyboard?
Been trying to get my head around why people like 60% keyboards so much.
Is it more than just the size?
Arrow keys would seem to be a problem, but perhaps I'm wrong about that. You also sacrifice PgUp, PgDn, Home, and End.
Are they more popular with PC users than Mac? Or are they more a Linux thing?
What makes a great 60% keyboard?
For me it is all about the ergonomics. I like the fact that my mouse is closer to my keyboard making doing work somewhat more comfortable, which equals more working time. I have both a Mac and a PC and I like using it with both because it is just that awesome. I have ordered a Mini Tactile keyboard from you guys and hope to use that with my Mac. The only thing I really miss is the arrow keys, which are under a layer of function keys. I find that a TKL board is accessible if there are other benefits to it(OSX function keys, high build quality, different switches, etc), but I prefer 60% to all.
I like the size and I think that the function layers are clever. Especially with programmable layers like the Poker 2 has, you can really customize and change the layout how you like. I find that the layout is comfortable for my hands and shoulders and is just great for typing. When I write reviews, it's just great to sit down with my Pure keyboard with Whites and type out a couple thousand words without any frills. Just feels good and is something different.
Edit: I use PC for what it's worth.
For the Tilde vs Esc problem, you may have a look at my GuiFN layout:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57723.msg1313182#msg1313182
I believe there is actually no need for an additional key.
Thanks, I hadn't seen that yet.
It's interesting that you chose essentially the same position for the Tilde key.
For the navigation cluster, I would recommend option A.
People who use their keyboard heavily for text editing need to do all kind of chords with Ctrl and Shift. Adding another key to chord with, just do to Home/End/PgUp/PgDn is a pain. It's a pain because there are already many chords with these keys (Ctrl-Home to go to the start of document, Ctrl-End for end of document, Shift-Home to select to start of line, and so on).
Good points. I'm currently siding with 3A, eventhough my personal favourite is 2A (which I fear is a little too strange).
I'm reluctant to mess with the Caps Lock key too much. I don't use it myself, but I know writers for whom it would be a dealbreaker, and coders who would remap it to Ctrl. Option 3 has it 1.25u wide, which should be wide enough to still feel normal.
My plan is to make this a group buy that eventually becomes a product. The GB would include a PCB-without-switches option that supports both Nav cluster options A and B, for those with a strong preference.
We'll also be selling the keycaps that make this layout possible, so anybody who wants to do a more traditional 60% (or programmable version) can roll their own.
How about something like this:
(Attachment Link)
You can index to the arrow cluster already from the bottom right corner, so you don't really need the gaps above the left and right arrows. It seems natural to me to use those spaces for Home and End, since those are the directions the cursor goes when you use them. Then you can have a "standard" top row, Esc, numbers, backspace.
One thing that I would like to stress out is that the Esc key is a key that developers now use constantly. The culprit is autocompletion. In modern IDEs, when you start typing a few letters the IDE opens a list of all words and symbols that may correspond to these letters. You need to press Esc to close this list, or else one of the items in the list is going to be validated when you press space or any other punctuation symbol.It’s a bit off topic, but it sounds like you might like a layout something like:
For example when typing C# code, just type the letter "i" and you already have a list of possible completions (basically any variable, class or method name that has a "i" in it). Most of the time in this case you will have to close the list by pressing Esc. It's not the only way, but it's important to note that you end up pressing Esc several times for each line of code you type.
For this reason, in SpaceFN and GuiFN I have now opted to NOT overload the Esc key. I mean that Fn-Esc does Esc. I got caught too many times pressing Esc while I was still holding the Fn key.
And for Mac users (in addition to the Unix stuff), Command~ cycles through windows in the frontmost app. It also cycles back a Command-Tab.
So, how do you do ~ on your 60% boards?
All the shipping 60 boards I've seen have it on the Esc's Fn layer by default.
I don't really see people who need frequent access to CapsLock having also a need to access frequently the backquote/tilde.I do see them, if you mean the backquote/tilde *key*. It's anyone, who uses Czech/Slovak QWERTZ/QWERTY (maybe some other national layout as well), a semicolon (quite common in C-like programming languages) and SQL or upper case letters with diacritic marks (most letters with diacritic marks are on the number row, but their shifted states are numbers, thus you have to use AltGr for "programming" symbols and Caps Lock or inconveniently placed dead keys for upper case letters with diacritic marks).
I don't really see people who need frequent access to CapsLock having also a need to access frequently the backquote/tilde.I do see them, if you mean the backquote/tilde *key*. It's anyone, who uses Czech/Slovak QWERTZ/QWERTY (maybe some other national layout as well), a semicolon (quite common in C-like programming languages) and SQL or upper case letters with diacritic marks (most letters with diacritic marks are on the number row, but their shifted states are numbers, thus you have to use AltGr for "programming" symbols and Caps Lock or inconveniently placed dead keys for upper case letters with diacritic marks).
What I've just described is... wait for it... thousands of mostly web coders.
Most people use Caps Lock to type upper-case letters with diacritic marks (e.g. Č, Ž, Ř, Á,...), Shift for numbers (if they don't use the numpad) and AltGr for those "programming" symbols.I don't really see people who need frequent access to CapsLock having also a need to access frequently the backquote/tilde.I do see them, if you mean the backquote/tilde *key*. It's anyone, who uses Czech/Slovak QWERTZ/QWERTY (maybe some other national layout as well), a semicolon (quite common in C-like programming languages) and SQL or upper case letters with diacritic marks (most letters with diacritic marks are on the number row, but their shifted states are numbers, thus you have to use AltGr for "programming" symbols and Caps Lock or inconveniently placed dead keys for upper case letters with diacritic marks).
What I've just described is... wait for it... thousands of mostly web coders.
My native layout is french AZERTY, so I understand what you are talking about. I do have to use dead keys for some accentuated characters, I do have to use AltGr for very common characters like "[" and "]", the most common accentuated characters are on the number row, and so I do have to use Shift to type numbers.
But what are the specifics of your national layout that are not correctly addressed by having CapsLock do backquote/tilde (which is semicolon on your keyboard as far as I can tell)?
Is it because you need CapsLock to type numbers more easily?
I feel the 60% boards are a way to express minimalism in modern technology. I find myself using virtual keyboards more often than mechanical these days as I'm typically not in need of a desktop environment. My mech keyboards and the functions I've assigned to particular keys and key groups are something I'm proud of. I feel superior to those with stock keyboards, because I personally arranged and understand all the keys on my boards. My main board is completely blank and ten-keyless and I feel each key is worth more when there are less of them.
I've left the keyboard world for well over a year now, but a nice ~60% is the only board I still lust for. Mainly because each key will mean that much more, and must completely justify its place on the board. That is why I like these smaller boards.
My HHKB Pro does not satisfy this need, mainly because of a lack of arrow keys. I also prefer the potential durability, modularity and options of MX switches.
Been away for a while, what's the absolute best boards in the 60% category that play well with OSX, and will enable me to go crazy with keys at WASD keyboards?
Most people use Caps Lock to type upper-case letters with diacritic marks (e.g. Č, Ž, Ř, Á,...), Shift for numbers (if they don't use the numpad) and AltGr for those "programming" symbols.I don't really see people who need frequent access to CapsLock having also a need to access frequently the backquote/tilde.I do see them, if you mean the backquote/tilde *key*. It's anyone, who uses Czech/Slovak QWERTZ/QWERTY (maybe some other national layout as well), a semicolon (quite common in C-like programming languages) and SQL or upper case letters with diacritic marks (most letters with diacritic marks are on the number row, but their shifted states are numbers, thus you have to use AltGr for "programming" symbols and Caps Lock or inconveniently placed dead keys for upper case letters with diacritic marks).
What I've just described is... wait for it... thousands of mostly web coders.
My native layout is french AZERTY, so I understand what you are talking about. I do have to use dead keys for some accentuated characters, I do have to use AltGr for very common characters like "[" and "]", the most common accentuated characters are on the number row, and so I do have to use Shift to type numbers.
But what are the specifics of your national layout that are not correctly addressed by having CapsLock do backquote/tilde (which is semicolon on your keyboard as far as I can tell)?
Is it because you need CapsLock to type numbers more easily?
fell
2 (written) to make sb fall to the ground:
He felled his opponent with a single blow.
school
2 [VN] (formal) to educate a child:
She should be schooled with her peers.
Many people type completely without diacritic marks, but it's sometimes a source of misunderstandings. One of the better know examples is skolit¹ and školit².
¹ Oxford DictionaryQuotefell
2 (written) to make sb fall to the ground:
He felled his opponent with a single blow.
² Oxford DictionaryQuoteschool
2 [VN] (formal) to educate a child:
She should be schooled with her peers.
Many people type completely without diacritic marks, but it's sometimes a source of misunderstandings. One of the better know examples is skolit¹ and školit².
¹ Oxford DictionaryQuotefell
2 (written) to make sb fall to the ground:
He felled his opponent with a single blow.
² Oxford DictionaryQuoteschool
2 [VN] (formal) to educate a child:
She should be schooled with her peers.
Quote
For the navigation cluster, I would recommend option A.
People who use their keyboard heavily for text editing need to do all kind of chords with Ctrl and Shift. Adding another key to chord with, just do to Home/End/PgUp/PgDn is a pain. It's a pain because there are already many chords with these keys (Ctrl-Home to go to the start of document, Ctrl-End for end of document, Shift-Home to select to start of line, and so on).
Good points. I'm currently siding with 3A, eventhough my personal favourite is 2A (which I fear is a little too strange).
Option 1 is clearly the worse. If you are going to have a narrow key, it's better to put it on the edge of the keyboard, because there is no key at its left to press accidentally.
QuoteI'm reluctant to mess with the Caps Lock key too much. I don't use it myself, but I know writers for whom it would be a dealbreaker, and coders who would remap it to Ctrl. Option 3 has it 1.25u wide, which should be wide enough to still feel normal.
Are you going to have DIP switches to configure a few options? In this case, just offer the ability to have either CapsLock or backquote directly accessible. I would guess that the set of people who want one option has a small intersection with the set of people who want the other one.
I don't really see people who need frequent access to CapsLock having also a need to access frequently the backquote/tilde.
Also, the position and shape of your left Fn key makes it very easy to press Fn-CapsLock, which mitigates a little bit the problem.
Cramming an additional key in there (and it's a narrow one) is not really elegant.
QuoteMy plan is to make this a group buy that eventually becomes a product. The GB would include a PCB-without-switches option that supports both Nav cluster options A and B, for those with a strong preference.
We'll also be selling the keycaps that make this layout possible, so anybody who wants to do a more traditional 60% (or programmable version) can roll their own.
I think this could be a wildly popular option.
Do I read correctly that your keyboard's firmware will be programmable? :p
One last remark: I think that on your keyboard there is one key that would actually benefit from being narrower. It's the Del key. It's in an area that is going to see high traffic (right Shift and arrows are there), so making it slightly smaller would probably prevent a few disasters. And it would not really be much harder to reach, as it would be on the edge of the keyboard, and easy to locate by feel as it is above a void. It's actually located in a corner, so it doesn't hurt if it is smaller than the other keys.
I put ~ on a layer. Also, I set up cmd-tab / cmd-shift-tab / cmd-` / cmd-shift-` on an easy to reach layer so that moving between apps, windows, and tabs is very easy and never requires a double-modifier shortcut.
(And I’m still furious at the way Apple has changed the way window layer ordering works for cmd-` in the past 2-3 versions of OS X; it’s dramatically less predictable and dramatically less useful than the way it used to work up through about 10.6 or so.)
It’s definitely supposed to be a feature, but I consider it a bug.(And I’m still furious at the way Apple has changed the way window layer ordering works for cmd-` in the past 2-3 versions of OS X; it’s dramatically less predictable and dramatically less useful than the way it used to work up through about 10.6 or so.)
I haven't really noticed the change. A bug perhaps?
Thanks for all the feedback...
I've re-read every message in the thread, and will be posting the interest check soon for the new 60% keyboard. All the graphics files are done, including some preliminary case drawings. I just need to read through all the GB guidelines and write the posting. Should be up in a few days.
Thanks again for everybody who participated in this thread. It's been very educational.
Thanks for all the feedback...
I've re-read every message in the thread, and will be posting the interest check soon for the new 60% keyboard. All the graphics files are done, including some preliminary case drawings. I just need to read through all the GB guidelines and write the posting. Should be up in a few days.
Thanks again for everybody who participated in this thread. It's been very educational.
And what have you decided finally about options 1, 2, 3, A and B?
(I know I could just wait your post in a few days, but... :) )
And if all that isn't enough, we plan to offer PCB+plate support for mounting Cherry switches on all the keys above the bottom row. That will make it VERY easy to find replacement caps. :-)
Thanks for all the feedback...
I've re-read every message in the thread, and will be posting the interest check soon for the new 60% keyboard. All the graphics files are done, including some preliminary case drawings. I just need to read through all the GB guidelines and write the posting. Should be up in a few days.
Thanks again for everybody who participated in this thread. It's been very educational.
And what have you decided finally about options 1, 2, 3, A and B?
(I know I could just wait your post in a few days, but... :) )
Always happy to spoil a surprise... :-)
I went with 3A *without* the Tilde key (fullsize Caps Lock) with PCB+plate support for 3B.
In other words, if you want Option A, you can get it fully assembled. If you want Option B (or A), you can buy the essential parts and assemble it yourself.
This seemed like the best compromise, while keeping the keyboard the same width as other 60s. It also means that only the bottom row has non-standard caps, which will make it easier to find keycap replacements for the others.
And if all that isn't enough, we plan to offer PCB+plate support for mounting Cherry switches on all the keys above the bottom row. That will make it VERY easy to find replacement caps. :-)
I like Poker II too (i mean it's external view), and even much more then Race II. But a lot of people in the forums say that does not fit for office use, i mean analytics in Excel and Word,because of absence dedicated arrow keys. As for me it I think that WASD arrows keys is even more comfortable, of course after some adaptation, but I could mistake. In this case you do not need to move your hand far away from home position on the keyboard... I have no
choice to try it before buying. So would it convenient to press for example ctrl+shift+arrow for selecting, but for other side it is possible to program another key, that is programmability. So can you suggest for office use (such as excel word) which keyboard is better between those two. Do you have experience of poker 2 in excel? Would it be comfortable after some adaptation? And about the difference. Is race 2 newer model? Does it have more
ability of programming. Help me please to decide.
To be honest i got used to poker WASD arrow moving very very fast... No problem at all. The only problem I would say if you are using it in the office would be because of the blue mx keys... but still... go with brown then. I already had 1 guy complaining.
Thank you very much... I think now I'm ready to buy Poker 2 with mx brown. It would be a real experiment - My first mechanikal keyboard and it would be in 60% layout. Hope the experience will be positive.