60% boards - what's the attraction?

[epzy]

I've had a PC for 11 years, but ok - you know best. =DDD

I think you understand it was irony.

You are on a keyboard enthusiasts forum and you are almost bragging that you have never used Home, End, PgUp and PgDn in your entire life? Seriously?

It's like posting on a sports cars forum that you only use the first and second gears and have never felt any need for the other ones.  )

Almost bragging that I've never used Home, End, PgUp and PgDn in my entire life? Are you out of your mind? It's the reason I like 60% keyboards, because I don't feel the need to have those keys. Not gonna have this "discussion" LOL, actually the dumbest **** I've ever seen.

Trash talking members who are pointing out your behavior which is distasteful to almost everyone is a poor idea, I must say. Please calm yourself and realize that his point is entirely valid. Bragging about not doing anything just makes you seem incredibly full of it.

Leave him alone. In the first week when people learn to use a computer, they generally do not use these keys. Home, End, PgUp and PgDn are for advanced users.

My bad, spicebar. Sometimes I get too harsh toward people who have no idea what they're doing but think they do.

You know you're the one being obnoxious right? Maybe you can't see it because of your ignorance, hell do I know.

So here's some of your posts.

"My bad, spicebar. Sometimes I get too harsh toward people who have no idea what they're doing but think they do." Thinking you are better than anyone evidence and admitting to being obnoxious.
"This in its entirety. I don't know what you're thinking if you're attempting to use your mouse to select things. but you obviously don't use keyboards much if you don't even use the nav keys" Implying that I don't use my keyboard a lot because I don't use the nav keys. Your logic is flawed.
"wat" That's what you said when I explained why I like 60% kb's because I said I never use the 6-pack keys etc.
"I'm assuming you would know, you pathetic little wanker. Paying $5 of your parents' hard earned money must be really difficult for you, good thing that we can be nice to people far less fortunate and hoping to afford a $10 keyboard rather than $250 by making them work at a school instead of learning" Calling him a "pathetic little wanker", really? Oh well, I know you're only 16 so you have time to grow.

You seem like a likeable guy. New to mechanical keyboards but knows everything about them none the less. :^)

Now, stop posting if you don't have anything to contribute to the topic at hand. Not sure why you love to derail threads so much.

OK, so back to the topic.

Maybe it's just a misunderstanding.

When you are in the middle of a line of text and you want to fix a typo at the beginning of the line, how do you move the cursor there?

Do you use the mouse? Do you keep the left arrow key pressed? Do you use another trick?

Yeah, I've always used the mouse in those situations.

I must say you are pretty unique, at least I haven't met people who do it this way.  But there is no need to argue about personal preferences.  What would be interesting is to understand why you are using your mouse in this situation.  Have you tried to analyse your preference?  How did it come to be?  I am sure you have noticed people around you used different technique.  Again to each it's own, but it would be nice to understand you better.

Can't say I have seen/noticed people using their arrow keys/nav keys on the LANs I've been to. Using the nav/arrow keys just isn't natural for me. It actually feels pretty awkward when I move my hands down to type on my arrow keys, I have to bend my wrists in ways that hurts. I position my keyboard kinda weird btw, I push the front side of my keyboard towards my monitor, and the other side naturally goes downwards. Not sure if you understand that explanation. It all comes down to personal preferences. There's even a professional League of Legends player that plays with a trackball instead of a regular mouse, so I don't see why I can't use my mouse to select things. =)

[spiceBar]

I've had a PC for 11 years, but ok - you know best. =DDD

I think you understand it was irony.

You are on a keyboard enthusiasts forum and you are almost bragging that you have never used Home, End, PgUp and PgDn in your entire life? Seriously?

It's like posting on a sports cars forum that you only use the first and second gears and have never felt any need for the other ones.  )

Almost bragging that I've never used Home, End, PgUp and PgDn in my entire life? Are you out of your mind? It's the reason I like 60% keyboards, because I don't feel the need to have those keys. Not gonna have this "discussion" LOL, actually the dumbest **** I've ever seen.

Trash talking members who are pointing out your behavior which is distasteful to almost everyone is a poor idea, I must say. Please calm yourself and realize that his point is entirely valid. Bragging about not doing anything just makes you seem incredibly full of it.

Leave him alone. In the first week when people learn to use a computer, they generally do not use these keys. Home, End, PgUp and PgDn are for advanced users.

My bad, spicebar. Sometimes I get too harsh toward people who have no idea what they're doing but think they do.

You know you're the one being obnoxious right? Maybe you can't see it because of your ignorance, hell do I know.

So here's some of your posts.

"My bad, spicebar. Sometimes I get too harsh toward people who have no idea what they're doing but think they do." Thinking you are better than anyone evidence and admitting to being obnoxious.
"This in its entirety. I don't know what you're thinking if you're attempting to use your mouse to select things. but you obviously don't use keyboards much if you don't even use the nav keys" Implying that I don't use my keyboard a lot because I don't use the nav keys. Your logic is flawed.
"wat" That's what you said when I explained why I like 60% kb's because I said I never use the 6-pack keys etc.
"I'm assuming you would know, you pathetic little wanker. Paying $5 of your parents' hard earned money must be really difficult for you, good thing that we can be nice to people far less fortunate and hoping to afford a $10 keyboard rather than $250 by making them work at a school instead of learning" Calling him a "pathetic little wanker", really? Oh well, I know you're only 16 so you have time to grow.

You seem like a likeable guy. New to mechanical keyboards but knows everything about them none the less. :^)

Now, stop posting if you don't have anything to contribute to the topic at hand. Not sure why you love to derail threads so much.

OK, so back to the topic.

Maybe it's just a misunderstanding.

When you are in the middle of a line of text and you want to fix a typo at the beginning of the line, how do you move the cursor there?

Do you use the mouse? Do you keep the left arrow key pressed? Do you use another trick?

Yeah, I've always used the mouse in those situations.

I must say you are pretty unique, at least I haven't met people who do it this way.  But there is no need to argue about personal preferences.  What would be interesting is to understand why you are using your mouse in this situation.  Have you tried to analyse your preference?  How did it come to be?  I am sure you have noticed people around you used different technique.  Again to each it's own, but it would be nice to understand you better.

Can't say I have seen/noticed people using their arrow keys/nav keys on the LANs I've been to. Using the nav/arrow keys just isn't natural for me. It actually feels pretty awkward when I move my hands down to type on my arrow keys, I have to bend my wrists in ways that hurts. I position my keyboard kinda weird btw, I push the front side of my keyboard towards my monitor, and the other side naturally goes downwards. Not sure if you understand that explanation. It all comes down to personal preferences. There's even a professional League of Legends player that plays with a trackball instead of a regular mouse, so I don't see why I can't use my mouse to select things. =)

So people who use their computer input devices to play games are your ultimate reference? That explains it all then...

For a while I had modified my keyboard's driver to do Home/End/PgUp/PgDn with the arrows in combination with the Ctrl key.

This was useful on the FC660C, because it has dedicated arrows but no dedicated Home/End/PgUp/PgDn (they must be accessed with the Fn key).

When I edit text, I need to have my left hand on Shift/Ctrl quite often, so it was not too different was my usual ways.

It is true that Ctrl-Left and Ctrl-Right are generally used to skip to the previous/next word, and I was missing these. To compensate, I set the autorepeat rate to an insane value.

So I could avoid using Home/End/PgUp/PgDn, but it was only because I did not have these keys.

[ctbear]

I've had a PC for 11 years, but ok - you know best. =DDD

I think you understand it was irony.

You are on a keyboard enthusiasts forum and you are almost bragging that you have never used Home, End, PgUp and PgDn in your entire life? Seriously?

It's like posting on a sports cars forum that you only use the first and second gears and have never felt any need for the other ones.  )

Almost bragging that I've never used Home, End, PgUp and PgDn in my entire life? Are you out of your mind? It's the reason I like 60% keyboards, because I don't feel the need to have those keys. Not gonna have this "discussion" LOL, actually the dumbest **** I've ever seen.

Trash talking members who are pointing out your behavior which is distasteful to almost everyone is a poor idea, I must say. Please calm yourself and realize that his point is entirely valid. Bragging about not doing anything just makes you seem incredibly full of it.

Leave him alone. In the first week when people learn to use a computer, they generally do not use these keys. Home, End, PgUp and PgDn are for advanced users.

My bad, spicebar. Sometimes I get too harsh toward people who have no idea what they're doing but think they do.

You know you're the one being obnoxious right? Maybe you can't see it because of your ignorance, hell do I know.

So here's some of your posts.

"My bad, spicebar. Sometimes I get too harsh toward people who have no idea what they're doing but think they do." Thinking you are better than anyone evidence and admitting to being obnoxious.
"This in its entirety. I don't know what you're thinking if you're attempting to use your mouse to select things. but you obviously don't use keyboards much if you don't even use the nav keys" Implying that I don't use my keyboard a lot because I don't use the nav keys. Your logic is flawed.
"wat" That's what you said when I explained why I like 60% kb's because I said I never use the 6-pack keys etc.
"I'm assuming you would know, you pathetic little wanker. Paying $5 of your parents' hard earned money must be really difficult for you, good thing that we can be nice to people far less fortunate and hoping to afford a $10 keyboard rather than $250 by making them work at a school instead of learning" Calling him a "pathetic little wanker", really? Oh well, I know you're only 16 so you have time to grow.

You seem like a likeable guy. New to mechanical keyboards but knows everything about them none the less. :^)

Now, stop posting if you don't have anything to contribute to the topic at hand. Not sure why you love to derail threads so much.

OK, so back to the topic.

Maybe it's just a misunderstanding.

When you are in the middle of a line of text and you want to fix a typo at the beginning of the line, how do you move the cursor there?

Do you use the mouse? Do you keep the left arrow key pressed? Do you use another trick?

Yeah, I've always used the mouse in those situations.

I must say you are pretty unique, at least I haven't met people who do it this way.  But there is no need to argue about personal preferences.  What would be interesting is to understand why you are using your mouse in this situation.  Have you tried to analyse your preference?  How did it come to be?  I am sure you have noticed people around you used different technique.  Again to each it's own, but it would be nice to understand you better.

Can't say I have seen/noticed people using their arrow keys/nav keys on the LANs I've been to. Using the nav/arrow keys just isn't natural for me. It actually feels pretty awkward when I move my hands down to type on my arrow keys, I have to bend my wrists in ways that hurts. I position my keyboard kinda weird btw, I push the front side of my keyboard towards my monitor, and the other side naturally goes downwards. Not sure if you understand that explanation. It all comes down to personal preferences. There's even a professional League of Legends player that plays with a trackball instead of a regular mouse, so I don't see why I can't use my mouse to select things. =)

It's fine if you prefer using the mouse, but we are talking about efficiency here. I can't imagine a scenario where it will be faster to grab your mouse than to use the arrow keys. Do you use your mouse to the left of your keyboard?
I am not sure if I follow your keyboard arrangement. Why would moving your right hand from the home row (assuming QWERTY) to the arrow keys bend your wrist?

[domoaligato]

I used to play quake 3 with the tenkey pad and a mouse.....

[Emmiya]

Is there any estimation for when we can see a layout for this proposed board Matias ? ^_^ <3

[1pq]

OK, so back to the topic.

Maybe it's just a misunderstanding.

When you are in the middle of a line of text and you want to fix a typo at the beginning of the line, how do you move the cursor there?

Do you use the mouse? Do you keep the left arrow key pressed? Do you use another trick?

Yeah, I've always used the mouse in those situations.

I must say you are pretty unique, at least I haven't met people who do it this way.  But there is no need to argue about personal preferences.  What would be interesting is to understand why you are using your mouse in this situation.  Have you tried to analyse your preference?  How did it come to be?  I am sure you have noticed people around you used different technique.  Again to each it's own, but it would be nice to understand you better.

Can't say I have seen/noticed people using their arrow keys/nav keys on the LANs I've been to. Using the nav/arrow keys just isn't natural for me. It actually feels pretty awkward when I move my hands down to type on my arrow keys, I have to bend my wrists in ways that hurts. I position my keyboard kinda weird btw, I push the front side of my keyboard towards my monitor, and the other side naturally goes downwards. Not sure if you understand that explanation. It all comes down to personal preferences. There's even a professional League of Legends player that plays with a trackball instead of a regular mouse, so I don't see why I can't use my mouse to select things. =)

It's fine if you prefer using the mouse, but we are talking about efficiency here. I can't imagine a scenario where it will be faster to grab your mouse than to use the arrow keys. Do you use your mouse to the left of your keyboard?
I am not sure if I follow your keyboard arrangement. Why would moving your right hand from the home row (assuming QWERTY) to the arrow keys bend your wrist?

Any mac users here? I moved to mac when I was about eight years old, and I never use pgup, pgdown, home, or end because I use command + arrow keys.
Personally I think this seems better because you have to move your fingers less...

[Linkbane]

Any mac users here? I moved to mac when I was about eight years old, and I never use pgup, pgdown, home, or end because I use command + arrow keys.
Personally I think this seems better because you have to move your fingers less...

I would think that moving your fingers up to the nav keys is about as much movement as to the FN+arrow keys, and dislike the idea of using two keys for one. If I wanted to read a story, for instance, I would rather just be able to lazily move through the pages, only using a single hand, rather than using both every time.

[spiceBar]

Any mac users here? I moved to mac when I was about eight years old, and I never use pgup, pgdown, home, or end because I use command + arrow keys.
Personally I think this seems better because you have to move your fingers less...

I would think that moving your fingers up to the nav keys is about as much movement as to the FN+arrow keys, and dislike the idea of using two keys for one. If I wanted to read a story, for instance, I would rather just be able to lazily move through the pages, only using a single hand, rather than using both every time.

Thinking about it is one thing, actually using it is another.

It works quite well. When you are editing a document or some code, as soon as you start moving your cursor around you generally have your left hand ready to select some text, so pressing the Cmd key is no effort at all.

When you want to just read some text, you can do PgUp/PgDn with just one hand anyway, because there is another Cmd key near the arrow cluster.

Once you are used to it, the 10-keys PC navigation cluster or the arrows and Cmd on the small Mac keyboards are quite the same. It's just a matter of being used to it. It's a kind of tradeoff for having just the 4 arrow keys. It's quite similar to the FC660C.

Now I'm not in any way justifying the claim of epzy about never using Home/End/PgUp/PgDn (or the equivalent way on the Mac, but he uses a PC). Reaching for the mouse to do that is so inefficient that if I did it, I would be embarrassed to admit it in public.

[Polymer]

He's definitely not unique in using his mouse that way (to edit back in a line)....A LOT of users will do that.  As inefficient as that might seem in some cases, it is easier to learn and use for many and in some cases, just more efficient (imagine if you need to go 3 lines up, 20 characters over). 

There are, of course, situations where you want/need to learn hotkeys if you're using certain things a lot but if you're not in one of those situations it is not a big deal. 

Also just because you enjoy keyboards doesn't mean you have to use every key on the keyboard...they actually have nothing to do with one another...I'd actually go as far as saying most users will rarely if ever user home/end/pu/pd but most users would enjoy using a mechanical keyboard.  We've already establish that plenty of users on here type slowly and that is fine yet I would consider that odder than someone not using home/end/pu/pd.  Maybe never using arrows keys ever is a bit odd but still, what is the main complaint with 60% boards?  It is only around the arrow key...no one really seems to care (or care much) about the odd places you have the home/end/pu/pd or the fact that it resides on the FN layer...

[BlackWidowMan777]

there is a situation where the mouse is insufficient:

if you dual boot say Windows 7 and Linux mint, you can't select the alternate OS using a mouse. You gotta use the arrows for that.

[spiceBar]

He's definitely not unique in using his mouse that way (to edit back in a line)....A LOT of users will do that.  As inefficient as that might seem in some cases, it is easier to learn and use for many and in some cases, just more efficient (imagine if you need to go 3 lines up, 20 characters over).  [

The claim was "I have never used them in my life". It's not about finding corner cases where it could be less awkward to use the mouse.

If you have never used Page Up or Page Down in your life (or some equivalent key combinations on some systems), it does not matter how long you have been using a computer, you're still a nOOb.

[osi]

there is a situation where the mouse is insufficient:

if you dual boot say Windows 7 and Linux mint, you can't select the alternate OS using a mouse. You gotta use the arrows for that.

Can't tab that?

[sprk]

Could you elaborate a bit more?
I'm a developer and I use home/end/page up/page down, a ton. I don't believe I could operate without them.
When I buy a laptop, I need to make sure that these keys are positioned efficiently or the computer will be practically unusable for me.
I also use arrow keys quite alot.

I'm also a developer and I never use home/end/pup/pdown, nor do I use arrow keys / fn keys a whole lot. This is probably because I've been using vim for the most part of the last 12 years. I just got used to the hjkl as arrows and never looked back. I also have vim mode plugins for everything. Every browser I use gets vim mode. I even use a vim mode plugin in my terminal (terminator is my preferred terminal emulator) via a plugin for zsh. I also like swapping control and caps lock, and having esc on the numbers row.

You mean it's mostly Cherry MX key-switch heaven here.  Hence poor Matias can't compete with other rivals turning out Cherry-based keyboards.  More's the pity because his ALPs switches are quite superb.  Again though, very little options for coloured/customized ALPs key-caps available here at GH (unless someone's running a GB for them).

60% are ONLY popular here and no where else in society.  Accountants, Pharmacists, Receptionists, Marketing Research, Data Entry/Processing, Engineers, Teachers as such require a full size keyboard.  Hence for Matias, stick with the majority out there instead of focusing on a tiny minority here on Geekhack.

I'd argue that both mechanical keyboards and 60%/60% plus arrow cluster are both keyboard modes that are slowly becoming trendy in society. For one part the Apple BT keyboard made the form factor desirable. For another people are starting to feel the lack of luster on their normal rubber dome keyboards and are now looking up to their local writer, programmer, person who types all day for alternatives to their crappy keyboards. Hell most people that have tried a mechanical keyboard in my experience are pretty much automatic converts bearing that they've overcome the difficulty of actually purchasing one.

Interesting.

Hypothetically, if you could have a mechanical keyboard that was exactly the same size and layout as the Apple BT keyboard, would you go for it?  Or would you chop off the function keys to make it smaller?

In my particular case, I would chop off the function keys. That being said, the extremely minimal form factor of the Apple BT is something I started to dislike after using if for the better part of 3 years at work. I like small 60% keyboards, but I want my 60% to feel like a keyboard, not like a slab of aluminum that got some keys pressed into it. The Apple keyboard is a great keyboard in the grand scheme of things - compared to the magnitude of ****ty standard keyboards out there at least, but to be honest I wouldn't go for its form factor again after trying a poker. Even if it was mechanical.

[spiceBar]

I'm also a developer and I never use home/end/pup/pdown, nor do I use arrow keys / fn keys a whole lot. This is probably because I've been using vim for the most part of the last 12 years. I just got used to the hjkl as arrows and never looked back. I also have vim mode plugins for everything. Every browser I use gets vim mode. I even use a vim mode plugin in my terminal (terminator is my preferred terminal emulator) via a plugin for zsh. I also like swapping control and caps lock, and having esc on the numbers row.

Have you read about the SpaceFN layout? I'm currently using it on a Poker that has been modified to implement SpaceFN in hardware, so I don't need to change the settings of my apps or use any plugin.

SpaceFN comes in several variants, one of which is IJKL (the one I use) and there is also an HJKL variant.

The thread about SpaceFN is here:
  http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51069.msg1121957#msg1121957

You will find the HJKL variant near the end of the first page of the thread.

[ideus]

Some of you may be familiar with R the statistical open source platform. I am an R user and the arrows really come handy. As most things you may get accustomed to alternate ways to access them, like in the Poker. However, to have them directly available is very comfortable. The lack of actual arrow keys was the main issue that prevented me to continue using a 60%.


GH is not about main stream, but individualism.

[epzy]

He's definitely not unique in using his mouse that way (to edit back in a line)....A LOT of users will do that.  As inefficient as that might seem in some cases, it is easier to learn and use for many and in some cases, just more efficient (imagine if you need to go 3 lines up, 20 characters over).  [

The claim was "I have never used them in my life". It's not about finding corner cases where it could be less awkward to use the mouse.

If you have never used Page Up or Page Down in your life (or some equivalent key combinations on some systems), it does not matter how long you have been using a computer, you're still a nOOb.

*Click* *Click* I just used my PgUp & PgDn, guess I'm as good as you now then, eh? ;]

[spiceBar]

He's definitely not unique in using his mouse that way (to edit back in a line)....A LOT of users will do that.  As inefficient as that might seem in some cases, it is easier to learn and use for many and in some cases, just more efficient (imagine if you need to go 3 lines up, 20 characters over).  [

The claim was "I have never used them in my life". It's not about finding corner cases where it could be less awkward to use the mouse.

If you have never used Page Up or Page Down in your life (or some equivalent key combinations on some systems), it does not matter how long you have been using a computer, you're still a nOOb.

*Click* *Click* I just used my PgUp & PgDn, guess I'm as good as you now then, eh? ;]

You are making progress at an incredible pace.

[epzy]

He's definitely not unique in using his mouse that way (to edit back in a line)....A LOT of users will do that.  As inefficient as that might seem in some cases, it is easier to learn and use for many and in some cases, just more efficient (imagine if you need to go 3 lines up, 20 characters over).  [

The claim was "I have never used them in my life". It's not about finding corner cases where it could be less awkward to use the mouse.

If you have never used Page Up or Page Down in your life (or some equivalent key combinations on some systems), it does not matter how long you have been using a computer, you're still a nOOb.

*Click* *Click* I just used my PgUp & PgDn, guess I'm as good as you now then, eh? ;]

You are making progress at an incredible pace.

Thanks, gonna touch my arrow & f-keys now to make you proud. Thank you so much for showing me the light, didn't realize I was in such a dark place.

[Polymer]

He's definitely not unique in using his mouse that way (to edit back in a line)....A LOT of users will do that.  As inefficient as that might seem in some cases, it is easier to learn and use for many and in some cases, just more efficient (imagine if you need to go 3 lines up, 20 characters over).  [

The claim was "I have never used them in my life". It's not about finding corner cases where it could be less awkward to use the mouse.

If you have never used Page Up or Page Down in your life (or some equivalent key combinations on some systems), it does not matter how long you have been using a computer, you're still a nOOb.

Someone said he was unique for using the mouse that way instead of arrow keys...when the reality is, he is far from it.  I'm not finding a corner case I'm actually saying the mouse can be more efficient in some cases and less in others..for a lot of users it is just easier that way, that is how they learned to do it, that is what they do. 

It really doesn't matter if you think he's a noob... Again, with 60% boards, every layout, etc...very few people actually complain about the placement or lack of pu/pd (in the case of the 60+% boards that have a few extra keys) because they're not used often.  Not using the arrow keys is a bit more unusual IMO but who cares?  There are people on here that type incredibly slow and to me that would strike me as infinitely more odd for a keyboard forum than someone that doesn't use the home/end/pu/pd cluster at all.. It really doesn't matter if you type fast, use this or that or hotkey this or that or whatever..if you enjoy keyboards you enjoy keyboards.  What is the point of trying to bash someone that says they don't use those keys?

[sprk]

Have you read about the SpaceFN layout? I'm currently using it on a Poker that has been modified to implement SpaceFN in hardware, so I don't need to change the settings of my apps or use any plugin.

SpaceFN comes in several variants, one of which is IJKL (the one I use) and there is also an HJKL variant.

The thread about SpaceFN is here:
  http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51069.msg1121957#msg1121957

You will find the HJKL variant near the end of the first page of the thread.

Looks interesting and I just might try it. Not sure if I would actually get any benefit from it though, I haven't used any of the keys on the "fn layer" in a whole while (to be honest I think I've never used the 6-pack since I started programming... arrow keys since I started on vim). I'm just to used to the vim way of life I guess. Even when I'm remotely connected to a server via ssh and I don't have my custom vim mode available, I can still use default linux terminal shortcuts to the cursor around sans arrow keys. For example: I use Ctrl+a and Ctrl+e to move to the beginning and end of a line respectively on a remote terminal. I guess I'm so used to the unix way of life that I've made it my mission to have everything I use right there close to the home row without needing to do any special stuff.

Actually I lied - I do use function keys at work. I use them to mute/unmute the speakers on my iMac.

[spiceBar]

Have you read about the SpaceFN layout? I'm currently using it on a Poker that has been modified to implement SpaceFN in hardware, so I don't need to change the settings of my apps or use any plugin.

SpaceFN comes in several variants, one of which is IJKL (the one I use) and there is also an HJKL variant.

The thread about SpaceFN is here:
  http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51069.msg1121957#msg1121957

You will find the HJKL variant near the end of the first page of the thread.

Looks interesting and I just might try it. Not sure if I would actually get any benefit from it though, I haven't used any of the keys on the "fn layer" in a whole while (to be honest I think I've never used the 6-pack since I started programming... arrow keys since I started on vim). I'm just to used to the vim way of life I guess. Even when I'm remotely connected to a server via ssh and I don't have my custom vim mode available, I can still use default linux terminal shortcuts to the cursor around sans arrow keys. For example: I use Ctrl+a and Ctrl+e to move to the beginning and end of a line respectively on a remote terminal. I guess I'm so used to the unix way of life that I've made it my mission to have everything I use right there close to the home row without needing to do any special stuff.

Actually I lied - I do use function keys at work. I use them to mute/unmute the speakers on my iMac.

One possible benefit is to be able to navigate with just one hand.

vim shortcuts use the Ctrl key. So you need two hands to use them.

With SpaceFN, you have a layout you are already used to, but need only one hand to navigate.

Another benefit is that you don't need to configure new apps to use the vim shortcuts: the keyboard (or the keyboard driver) does the job. I have the SpaceFN layout built in my keyboards in hardware, so it's immediately compatible with any new app I need to use.

If you had one, you could go to any computer, connect your keyboard, and from there it's vim shortcuts in every single app.

In any case, and even if it was not the initial intent, the SpaceFN layout shares a lot with the vim philosophy, and it can coexist without any problem with vim shortcuts.

[sprk]

One possible benefit is to be able to navigate with just one hand.

vim shortcuts use the Ctrl key. So you need two hands to use them.

With SpaceFN, you have a layout you are already used to, but need only one hand to navigate.

Another benefit is that you don't need to configure new apps to use the vim shortcuts: the keyboard (or the keyboard driver) does the job. I have the SpaceFN layout built in my keyboards in hardware, so it's immediately compatible with any new app I need to use.

If you had one, you could go to any computer, connect your keyboard, and from there it's vim shortcuts in every single app.

In any case, and even if it was not the initial intent, the SpaceFN layout shares a lot with the vim philosophy, and it can coexist without any problem with vim shortcuts.

Oh moving around is always a one hand operation in vim/vim mode plugins (since you're pretty much always on normal mode), don't need to press any modifiers for that 

You do win by over 9000 on the second point though. Right now portability is not at it's best since I rely on machine configurations, though my dotfiles and vimrc is always a checkout or clone away. If I  ever need to use a linux or mac machine as long as I have internet I can just download my confs and run a setup script I keep with the whole bundle if I need extra functionality. That being said, any time I need to use a windows PC I'm utterly screwed. Maybe this layout would be a nice way to keep all keyboard related functions in my keyboard regardless of OS. Anyways, thanks for the recommendation, I'll give the whole thread a read and perhaps try it out and see if it sticks.

[cinnamoncider]

You just got to love the aesthetics and portability 

[BlackWidowMan777]

there is a situation where the mouse is insufficient:

if you dual boot say Windows 7 and Linux mint, you can't select the alternate OS using a mouse. You gotta use the arrows for that.

Can't tab that?

Pretty sure it's arrows only 

[spiceBar]

One possible benefit is to be able to navigate with just one hand.

vim shortcuts use the Ctrl key. So you need two hands to use them.

With SpaceFN, you have a layout you are already used to, but need only one hand to navigate.

Another benefit is that you don't need to configure new apps to use the vim shortcuts: the keyboard (or the keyboard driver) does the job. I have the SpaceFN layout built in my keyboards in hardware, so it's immediately compatible with any new app I need to use.

If you had one, you could go to any computer, connect your keyboard, and from there it's vim shortcuts in every single app.

In any case, and even if it was not the initial intent, the SpaceFN layout shares a lot with the vim philosophy, and it can coexist without any problem with vim shortcuts.

Oh moving around is always a one hand operation in vim/vim mode plugins (since you're pretty much always on normal mode), don't need to press any modifiers for that 

You do win by over 9000 on the second point though. Right now portability is not at it's best since I rely on machine configurations, though my dotfiles and vimrc is always a checkout or clone away. If I  ever need to use a linux or mac machine as long as I have internet I can just download my confs and run a setup script I keep with the whole bundle if I need extra functionality. That being said, any time I need to use a windows PC I'm utterly screwed. Maybe this layout would be a nice way to keep all keyboard related functions in my keyboard regardless of OS. Anyways, thanks for the recommendation, I'll give the whole thread a read and perhaps try it out and see if it sticks.

Hasu has created a genius little device that you plug between your keyboard and your PC. It turns your standard keyboard into a fully programmable one. It works by translating what the keyboard sends and sending the result to the PC.

I have one plugged on my Poker X, and it implements SpaceFN.

With such a device, you could completely forget about config files.

The device is very simple, just an AtMega controller and a few components. The cost of the device is very low. I don't know if Hasu is still willing to make more of them and sell them, but they are incredibly useful.

Otherwise you could use a programmable keyboard like the GH60 (which also has Hasu's firmware). It is a 60% keyboard and it's easy to carry around.

[Emmiya]

Any updates on this 60% case for us yet Matias ?

[Matias]

Any updates on this 60% case for us yet Matias ?

Yes, there was some discussion about it in another thread.  Salient points are quoted below...

So like this, then? Hmm.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/48b46e2bfca09f2d7399e9b8f0a206c5

Not a full-size RShift, then, but still...

Yes, that's pretty close.

I've got some ideas for making the layout a bit tighter in the bottom row, so RShift can remain full size, although it puts Insert and Delete in a dangerous location. This follows Dell and Lenovo's recent trend of putting PgUp and PgDn in the arrow cluster, although the argument could be made for swapping them with Home and End (because Home and End are left/right functions, PgUp and PgDn are up/down functions):

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/30ab986cc8b01a9e84c3a5cf98e7e889

We tried a layout like this, but it tested very badly.

Without the blank spaces on either side of Up Arrow, it's very difficult to feel your way around.  You lose your bearings, and have to constantly look down at the keyboard -- very annoying.

Really, it's a tradeoff no matter what you do.

Exactly correct.

So, given the choice, I'd rather do something that includes all keys in standard-ish positions, and keeps you out of the Fn layer as much as possible.  That's what I meant by no compromises.

[WakeMeIPlan]

The portability is what does it for me. I bring my board with me everywhere and it weighs barely anything.

[dustinhxc]

I love my 60%s! I never have the desire to use a full size again.. But I use a numpad so I'm kind of in between.. Also I do like some tkls. But I absolutely love that the 60%s don't take a lot of space up on my desk.

[Matias]

Just want to let you all know that I'm doing an AMA ("Ask Me Anything") on Reddit tomorrow (Thursday) at 1pm EST (New York timezone).  The announcement is here...

   http://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/1wc0ku/news_edgar_matias_creator_of_matias_keyboards_and/

Any and all are welcome to join in.  Feel free to ask about our upcoming 60% keyboard.  I'll be online for a few hours, answering questions live.  :-)

[CPTBadAss]

Matias, any updates on the 60% GB?

[Matias]

Matias, any updates on the 60% GB?

Sorry for the delayed reply.  It's been a busy few months.  I'd like to solicit more feedback from you all, if you'll indulge me on this...

We're aiming for something unique but not too strange. Mainly, I'm trying to decide how to deal with the Tilde vs. Esc key dilemma, and whether or not to include Nav keys vs. one-handed Fn+Arrow keys to do Home/End/PgUp/PgDown.

See below.  Feel free to expound at length. 

Do you prefer Option 1, 2, or 3 for the Esc/Tilde? 

Do you prefer Option A or B for the Nav/Arrow keys?

Thanks!

[AKmalamute]

3B

I've come to love the HHKB(lite)'s version of arrowkeys become navigation -- Fn+Rt = End, Fn+Up = PgUp, etc. Also, while halfwidth keys for unpopular keys are just a thing that happens on these kinds of boards, Esc isn't all that unpopular. I find CapsLock is easily forgotten, and while I use the backtick more than many I suspect, at least in 3, its at the edge so still easy to smack at speed while writing bash scripts.

My 2¢

[Defect]

3B

Also I'm DYING for a standard layout programmable 60% Alps board, but I think you already moved passed that

[divito]

Not to add even more options, but why not make Caps position the tilde key, and put Caps on the FN layer? That way you don't have to mess with key sizes.

But anyways, to choose of the available options, I'd probably say 3B like the two other responses so far.

[Jotokun]

1A or 2A.

I've been lurking here for a while, but seeing your post asking for preference made me sign up just to give my input. I've been looking forward to your 60% layout for a while because I've wanted a portable keyboard with your quiet ALPS, but I need Home and End without going through an fn layer. If you went with option B here, you would completely eliminate any interest I would have in this board. I literally just bought a G84-4100 to hold me over until this board came out, had I known it weren't a sure thing and subject to popular vote I would have gotten a Keycool, a Choc Mini or held out for the Unicomp mini instead.

[Matias]

Not to add even more options, but why not make Caps position the tilde key, and put Caps on the FN layer? That way you don't have to mess with key sizes.

Thanks for the suggestion, but I know a lot of people swap Ctrl and Caps Lock, so I didn't want to mess with them too much.

[AKmalamute]

or held out for the Unicomp mini instead.

You're still a young person, I take it? Nearly in my forties, myself -- not sure I have enough years left on this earth for what you're talking about.

All kidding aside, I hear you about certain uses needing dedicated keys. I just don't fall into needing quartersized dedicated pgup/dn more than I need easy to push navigation -- and Fn+Rt often isn't that hard, depending ...

[Matias]

Thanks for the quick feedback so far...

I just want to clarify that for the Nav key options A and B, we're planning to design the PCB to support both options -- but I still want to know what the majority preference is.

Thanks again!

[jacobolus]

How about

Or

Or


[Putting caps lock in such a useful position next to the left pinky is a huge waste, and the super-long left shift in your designs also seems wasteful. A split spacebar is a huge advantage over the standard ridiculous-wide spacebar (assuming one half can be used as backspace or a function key), and the standard control key position is very uncomfortable.]

[spiceBar]

Matias, any updates on the 60% GB?

Sorry for the delayed reply.  It's been a busy few months.  I'd like to solicit more feedback from you all, if you'll indulge me on this...

We're aiming for something unique but not too strange. Mainly, I'm trying to decide how to deal with the Tilde vs. Esc key dilemma, and whether or not to include Nav keys vs. one-handed Fn+Arrow keys to do Home/End/PgUp/PgDown.

See below.  Feel free to expound at length. 

Do you prefer Option 1, 2, or 3 for the Esc/Tilde? 

Do you prefer Option A or B for the Nav/Arrow keys?

Thanks!



(Attachment Link)




(Attachment Link)




(Attachment Link)




(Attachment Link)

For the Tilde vs Esc problem, you may have a look at my GuiFN layout:
  http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57723.msg1313182#msg1313182

I believe there is actually no need for an additional key.

For the navigation cluster, I would recommend option A.

People who use their keyboard heavily for text editing need to do all kind of chords with Ctrl and Shift. Adding another key to chord with, just do to Home/End/PgUp/PgDn is a pain. It's a pain because there are already many chords with these keys (Ctrl-Home to go to the start of document, Ctrl-End for end of document, Shift-Home to select to start of line, and so on).

If you put Home on Fn-Left, for example, you are forcing the user to do 3-keys chords for beginning of document or select to the start of line. It's a pain. It's very confusing. Your left hand has too much unusual work to do. I would bet that people who edit text all day long would be put off by this (maybe only after they purchase the keyboard, which is not good for you anyway).

Your design allows you to have dedicated keys for Home/End/PgUp/PgDn, and it's a big advantage over most small keyboards. Don't screw up!

[Matias]

For the Tilde vs Esc problem, you may have a look at my GuiFN layout:
  http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57723.msg1313182#msg1313182

I believe there is actually no need for an additional key.

Thanks, I hadn't seen that yet.

It's interesting that you chose essentially the same position for the Tilde key.

For the navigation cluster, I would recommend option A.

People who use their keyboard heavily for text editing need to do all kind of chords with Ctrl and Shift. Adding another key to chord with, just do to Home/End/PgUp/PgDn is a pain. It's a pain because there are already many chords with these keys (Ctrl-Home to go to the start of document, Ctrl-End for end of document, Shift-Home to select to start of line, and so on).

Good points.  I'm currently siding with 3A, eventhough my personal favourite is 2A (which I fear is a little too strange).

I'm reluctant to mess with the Caps Lock key too much.  I don't use it myself, but I know writers for whom it would be a dealbreaker, and coders who would remap it to Ctrl.  Option 3 has it 1.25u wide, which should be wide enough to still feel normal.

My plan is to make this a group buy that eventually becomes a product.  The GB would include a PCB-without-switches option that supports both Nav cluster options A and B, for those with a strong preference.

We'll also be selling the keycaps that make this layout possible, so anybody who wants to do a more traditional 60% (or programmable version) can roll their own.

Your design allows you to have dedicated keys for Home/End/PgUp/PgDn, and it's a big advantage over most small keyboards. Don't screw up!

Yes, trying very hard not do that... 

[davkol]

ISO (i.e. 1x left Shift and an extra key) please!

I don't think the nav cluster in a corner is a good idea, because it makes it impossible to press modifiers (Ctrl) with a palm.

You're lucky that there isn't the question of compatibility with existing keycap sets. ^_^ Here's a suggestion many will hate: 1x Backspace (thus more space on the number row). As a Colemak user, I remap Caps Lock to Backspace anyway. Speaking of that, Caps Lock is a good position for Esc as well.

Another thing, after using TypeMatrix 2030 and playing with the ErgoDox and various grid layouts on my AccessIS keypad for a while, I'm intrigued by the idea of two-row bottom row—basically what you're doing with the nav cluster, but with modifiers. It actually does work, provided the two "minirows" have keycaps of very different profiles.

From the options you've posted, I like the 2A with a split spacebar the most. The number row aligned with the QWERTY row is actually awesome (many would probably hate it though, because it'd mess with their muscle memory), it makes touch typing more straightforward (at least that's my experience from symmetrical layouts).

[BlueBär]

I really prefer option B to option A. Seperate navigation keys are a waste of space if you can just put them on FN+arrow keys, especially if you have an FN key nearby. I would ditch the dedicated menu key though - I don't think I have ever used it, and I don't think many people do.

On option 1/2/3, I like that you put a dedicated Del key on the keyboard, but I'm not a fan of the higher bottom row. Might make things look unproportional on the final product, but I guess it is necessary for the arrow keys. I also would put the ~ key on the FN layer and instead go for a more standard layout.

[Oobly]

How about something like this:



You can index to the arrow cluster already from the bottom right corner, so you don't really need the gaps above the left and right arrows. It seems natural to me to use those spaces for Home and End, since those are the directions the cursor goes when you use them. Then you can have a "standard" top row, Esc, numbers, backspace.

[davkol]

Yup.



I'd only swap left Ctrl and fn, and get rid of the multimedia keys.

[Matias]

ISO (i.e. 1x left Shift and an extra key) please!

ISO version will have it.

You're lucky that there isn't the question of compatibility with existing keycap sets. ^_^ Here's a suggestion many will hate: 1x Backspace (thus more space on the number row).

Yes and yes.     Remember, the goal here is something useable but not too strange.

From the options you've posted, I like the 2A with a split spacebar the most. The number row aligned with the QWERTY row is actually awesome (many would probably hate it though, because it'd mess with their muscle memory), it makes touch typing more straightforward (at least that's my experience from symmetrical layouts).

Agreed.

How about something like this:

(Attachment Link)

You can index to the arrow cluster already from the bottom right corner, so you don't really need the gaps above the left and right arrows. It seems natural to me to use those spaces for Home and End, since those are the directions the cursor goes when you use them. Then you can have a "standard" top row, Esc, numbers, backspace.

We actually prototyped and tested that layout last year.  I also hoped that the extra space could be used for something more useful.  Unfortunately, it didn't test well.  Turns out those spaces above the arrow keys serve as spatial reference points for feeling your way quickly to the arrow keys.  Without them, it's easy to get lost.

On option 1/2/3, I like that you put a dedicated Del key on the keyboard... I also would put the ~ key on the FN layer and instead go for a more standard layout.

May still do that.  I'm not sure about how important the ~ is to 60% users.

[luisbg]

60% because:

- My hands never move to keys far away from the home row. I reach them all by moving my wrist and my arms stay almost stationary.

- Reaching the mouse is a lot closer. No numpad means having the mouse in a more comfortable position.

- Aesthetics are great when the keyboard is 99% covered in keys, and small. Minimalist.

- Function layers and key combos just feel more natural to me than over 100 keys to remember and reach. Same reason I use Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V in any application instead of the Copy and Paste keys in my old SUN keyboard.

[AKmalamute]

LuisBG, I can't help but make sentences of your function keys. "Stop (again)." "Props, Undo: Front & Copy." "Open paste, find [the] cut." Apparently your keyboard is going to seal your wounds with superglue.

I'm not sure about how important the ~ is to 60% users

Very important to gamers, not so important to novelists. Hopefully not too important to accountants. I could be okay with it being on a function layer, even after reading luisbg's reply, below. (I use linux, too, so I know what he's talking about.)

[luisbg]

I'm not sure about how important the ~ is to 60% users

~ is $HOME for people using the command line, which is all software engineers, developers and sysadmins. Computer power users who type a lot and get fancy keyboards. 

HOME is the folder where all the user's files are. So very frequent commands are made shorter by typing "~/Pics/yeah.jpg" instead of "/home/luisbg/Pics/yeah.jpg".

Maybe one day I will write a script to keep track of how many times I use the ~ on a daily average. Wouldn't be surprised if it is over 100 times.