60% boards - what's the attraction?

[CPTBadAss]

Purple on Pink.

[dustinhxc]

Purple on Pink.

^^ Hell Yeah! 

[mooswa]

This will be very much a "no compromises" 60% keyboard.  It will have more functionality than the FC660, and will be smaller also.

How flexible will the function layer be?  Any chance of customizable firmware? I want to map HJKL to arrows, single tap Caps Lock to Esq while holding Caps Lock with other key to Ctrl + key.

http://stevelosh.com/blog/2012/10/a-modern-space-cadet/

[ynrozturk]

Ergonomics basically. I just love my Poker II. I don't really need the arrow keys, and it does everything that I need it to do, so why not? Takes up less space on my desk and reduces clutter somehow, and I just like the way it looks and feels.

[Matias]

This will be very much a "no compromises" 60% keyboard.  It will have more functionality than the FC660, and will be smaller also.

How flexible will the function layer be?  Any chance of customizable firmware? I want to map HJKL to arrows, single tap Caps Lock to Esq while holding Caps Lock with other key to Ctrl + key.

No customizable firmware, but each key in the function layer (except Caps Lock) will have an assigned code, so you'll be able to link to them in macro software.  Caps Lock and Fn + Caps Lock = Caps Lock, so you can rebind it to Ctrl without issues.  There will also be separate Arrow keys.

http://stevelosh.com/blog/2012/10/a-modern-space-cadet/

Very interesting blog entry.  I have it in my reading queue.

[BucklingSpring]

Matias your TKL layout is pretty obviously the best non-split layout available.  Symmetrical modifier key layout, compact, still has arrow cluster.

I don't think it'd be worth your while to mess with 60% layouts, they aren't going to be meaningfully more compact than what you have.

Agree... I just swapped my MiniQP for a KBT Pure pro at the office and I don't think the KBT will last long.
For the little space gain over the MiniQP the 60% has major shortcomings.

BUT if you want to toy with the MiniQP - Make a polycarbonate clippable cover that can snap on the top. Purrrfect for travelers and road warriors. Work done, clip and throw the board in the briefcase or the bigger pocket of the laptop bag without worrying to damage the keyboard.

[Matias]

Matias your TKL layout is pretty obviously the best non-split layout available.  Symmetrical modifier key layout, compact, still has arrow cluster.

I don't think it'd be worth your while to mess with 60% layouts, they aren't going to be meaningfully more compact than what you have.

Agree... I just swapped my MiniQP for a KBT Pure pro at the office and I don't think the KBT will last long.
For the little space gain over the MiniQP the 60% has major shortcomings.

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at how much functionality we managed to fit into it.  :-)

I wasn't kidding when I said that it was a "no compromises" effort.  Aside from the function keys and number pad, there's really not much missing from it.

[Oobly]

Matias your TKL layout is pretty obviously the best non-split layout available.  Symmetrical modifier key layout, compact, still has arrow cluster.

I don't think it'd be worth your while to mess with 60% layouts, they aren't going to be meaningfully more compact than what you have.

Agree... I just swapped my MiniQP for a KBT Pure pro at the office and I don't think the KBT will last long.
For the little space gain over the MiniQP the 60% has major shortcomings.

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at how much functionality we managed to fit into it.  :-)

I wasn't kidding when I said that it was a "no compromises" effort.  Aside from the function keys and number pad, there's really not much missing from it.

I want to see this so badly now

[Linkbane]

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at how much functionality we managed to fit into it.  :-)

I wasn't kidding when I said that it was a "no compromises" effort.  Aside from the function keys and number pad, there's really not much missing from it.

If you fit in the arrow keys into the modifier layer, I'd be overjoyed. Either way, looking forward to this keyboard and hopefully I'll be trying a Matias within a few months.

[BearManJim]

Lol, I don't know if I can wait till January?! In my desperation, I've been becoming more enamoured with the Mini Tactile Pro. This recent mini review captured it pretty nicely;

I'd be willing to forgive its larger footprint (not a huge fan of the extended area around the USB ports) and in my opinion, the slightly awkward space around the Page Up/Down keys. No UK PC version though...

So am I right in thinking the only readily available (in the UK at least) clicky white-ish ISO board is the biege Unicomp full size? Hmm...

What is it about PC peripherals and the colour black?

Fingers crossed then for this new 60% offering. Am I right in assuming squeaky space-bars won't be an issue? ;-)

[BucklingSpring]

Matias your TKL layout is pretty obviously the best non-split layout available.  Symmetrical modifier key layout, compact, still has arrow cluster.

I don't think it'd be worth your while to mess with 60% layouts, they aren't going to be meaningfully more compact than what you have.

Agree... I just swapped my MiniQP for a KBT Pure pro at the office and I don't think the KBT will last long.
For the little space gain over the MiniQP the 60% has major shortcomings.

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at how much functionality we managed to fit into it.  :-)

I wasn't kidding when I said that it was a "no compromises" effort.  Aside from the function keys and number pad, there's really not much missing from it.

Can't wait to see it. For my taste, the KBT Pure pro layout had the least differences with a normal layout. Which need less of a training to be functional and don't mess with my ability to switch back to a normal keyboard without have to re-learn again.

I need my arrow keys and I'm used to a large RSHIFT. That's where the KBT Pure pro slap me in the face. I keep extending my pinky over the short switch and hit the up arrow.

[Emmiya]

I'd like to pass on a suggestion if possible.
For those super-niche people like myself who are southpaw gamers and interested in minimalist keyboards(I highly doubt there is anyone other than myself):
What is the likeliness of having a dipswitch to replace Right FN with Right CTRL. Literally the only TKL board I have seen that pulls this off is the Noppoo Choc Mini It's pretty much a vital placement for us, but it's either thrown off into the bottom right corner(poker, pure, QFR... the list goes on). Or just slightly too far out of reach(keycool 84). This picture shows what i'm talking about. Ideally the left side of the ctrl key should be roughly under the / key.

Now, this may seem pretty petty to some people, but you know, it's the tiny details like this, which sway purchases in the favour.

Also, Fn + Backspace = Delete is a habbit i've really got used to from the Pure, it just feels so 'natural'.

Edit: now that i'm thinking about it, I personally don't even use the right Alt key, and I can't personally think of a single time where it would be used, So even possibly removing that key altogether and shoving Fn/Ctrl along into the empty space would be enough.

[spiceBar]

I'd like to pass on a suggestion if possible.
For those super-niche people like myself who are southpaw gamers and interested in minimalist keyboards(I highly doubt there is anyone other than myself):
What is the likeliness of having a dipswitch to replace Right FN with Right CTRL. Literally the only TKL board I have seen that pulls this off is the Noppoo Choc Mini It's pretty much a vital placement for us, but it's either thrown off into the bottom right corner(poker, pure, QFR... the list goes on). Or just slightly too far out of reach(keycool 84). This picture shows what i'm talking about. Ideally the left side of the ctrl key should be roughly under the / key.

Now, this may seem pretty petty to some people, but you know, it's the tiny details like this, which sway purchases in the favour.

Also, Fn + Backspace = Delete is a habbit i've really got used to from the Pure, it just feels so 'natural'.

Edit: now that i'm thinking about it, I personally don't even use the right Alt key, and I can't personally think of a single time where it would be used, So even possibly removing that key altogether and shoving Fn/Ctrl along into the empty space would be enough.

The right Alt key is absolutely fundamental for several European languages (it's called AltGr in this case). Messing with it is not good for your health if you are a keyboard manufacturer.

[Matias]

Lol, I don't know if I can wait till January?!

You won't have to wait that long.  I'll be disclosing some major details next week.  January is just for the case drawings.

I'd like to pass on a suggestion if possible.
For those super-niche people like myself who are southpaw gamers and interested in minimalist keyboards(I highly doubt there is anyone other than myself):
What is the likeliness of having a dipswitch to replace Right FN with Right CTRL.

Edit: now that i'm thinking about it, I personally don't even use the right Alt key, and I can't personally think of a single time where it would be used, So even possibly removing that key altogether and shoving Fn/Ctrl along into the empty space would be enough.

An AutoHotkey script is your best bet for this.  Very easy to swap Alt & Ctrl this way.

The right Alt key is absolutely fundamental for several European languages (it's called AltGr in this case). Messing with it is not good for your health if you are a keyboard manufacturer.

Very true. 

Also, Fn + Backspace = Delete is a habbit i've really got used to from the Pure, it just feels so 'natural'.

Yes, that will be supported, along with a separate Delete key.

If you fit in the arrow keys into the modifier layer, I'd be overjoyed. Either way, looking forward to this keyboard and hopefully I'll be trying a Matias within a few months.

There will be separate arrow keys.  No need to go to the Fn layer for them.

I need my arrow keys and I'm used to a large RSHIFT. That's where the KBT Pure pro slap me in the face. I keep extending my pinky over the short switch and hit the up arrow.

R-Shift will be big.

So am I right in thinking the only readily available (in the UK at least) clicky white-ish ISO board is the biege Unicomp full size? Hmm...

We're doing it as a group buy, so we'll be offering white as an option.  We'll probably also offer the clicky keys as an option.

As for ISO, we'll have to see how the numbers work out.  If it does well enough, we may be able to get our EU distributor (The Keyboard Company) on board.  I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

Am I right in assuming squeaky space-bars won't be an issue? ;-)

We lube 'em thoroughly, so there should be no squeaking.

Thanks for the video BTW.  It's nicely done.  Will have to talk to her about getting her squeaky spacebar fixed or replaced.

[Belfong]

Whoa! Did I read clicky switch as an option for this GB? That's awesome!!!!

[BucklingSpring]

I'd like to pass on a suggestion if possible.
For those super-niche people like myself who are southpaw gamers and interested in minimalist keyboards(I highly doubt there is anyone other than myself):
What is the likeliness of having a dipswitch to replace Right FN with Right CTRL. Literally the only TKL board I have seen that pulls this off is the Noppoo Choc Mini It's pretty much a vital placement for us, but it's either thrown off into the bottom right corner(poker, pure, QFR... the list goes on). Or just slightly too far out of reach(keycool 84). This picture shows what i'm talking about. Ideally the left side of the ctrl key should be roughly under the / key.

Now, this may seem pretty petty to some people, but you know, it's the tiny details like this, which sway purchases in the favour.

Also, Fn + Backspace = Delete is a habbit i've really got used to from the Pure, it just feels so 'natural'.

Edit: now that i'm thinking about it, I personally don't even use the right Alt key, and I can't personally think of a single time where it would be used, So even possibly removing that key altogether and shoving Fn/Ctrl along into the empty space would be enough.

The right Alt key is absolutely fundamental for several European languages (it's called AltGr in this case). Messing with it is not good for your health if you are a keyboard manufacturer.

Do you guys need the ALT for "normal" language characters?
I have absolutely no pretention in ergonomics, LSHIFT and RSHIFT are constantly in use in my basic typing technique style. I don't look at the keyboard 90% of the time as I cover letters and the number row. But I have to "break" the stand for anything special. I don't look when I break stand for the arrows, DEL and backspace and if they are not where expected, I screw up.

The KBT Pure Pro messes with my references because the backspace, DEL are lined up vertically. My positional reference for the DEL is higher-left of the up arrow. BEEP, wrong answer on the Pure. Speaking of the UP arrow, I don't expect a big fat return right above. Since this is the land of DEL.


For the "extended" modifiers, I don't know if it is because I'm left handed but that is the hand and side I use to punch for (ALT, CTRL, WIN, etc...). I not only break stand for those, but I also look at the keyboard to locate them, which mean I don't really care where they are. I spot them first, then hit.

The more I look at the Pure (above), maybe I made the wrong choice and for my simple mind, a Poker (below) would have been a better choice. Thinking of it now, I'd rather relearn to FN the arrows, then mess with the right side of the cluster.


source from dangwang.files.wordpress.com

So here's what went wrong in my 60% first time buying process. I got scared by the lack of arrow keys and neglected the major impact of messing with the right cluster layout. In all honesty, the arrow keys don't fall in the 90% usage. I think it would have been more ergonomic to locate the FN key on the left  side of the spacebar. On the other hand (pun intended) the right side FN allows to single hand handle the arrows with the thumb.

[spiceBar]

I'd like to pass on a suggestion if possible.
For those super-niche people like myself who are southpaw gamers and interested in minimalist keyboards(I highly doubt there is anyone other than myself):
What is the likeliness of having a dipswitch to replace Right FN with Right CTRL. Literally the only TKL board I have seen that pulls this off is the Noppoo Choc Mini It's pretty much a vital placement for us, but it's either thrown off into the bottom right corner(poker, pure, QFR... the list goes on). Or just slightly too far out of reach(keycool 84). This picture shows what i'm talking about. Ideally the left side of the ctrl key should be roughly under the / key.

Now, this may seem pretty petty to some people, but you know, it's the tiny details like this, which sway purchases in the favour.

Also, Fn + Backspace = Delete is a habbit i've really got used to from the Pure, it just feels so 'natural'.

Edit: now that i'm thinking about it, I personally don't even use the right Alt key, and I can't personally think of a single time where it would be used, So even possibly removing that key altogether and shoving Fn/Ctrl along into the empty space would be enough.

The right Alt key is absolutely fundamental for several European languages (it's called AltGr in this case). Messing with it is not good for your health if you are a keyboard manufacturer.

Do you guys need the ALT for "normal" language characters?
I have absolutely no pretention in ergonomics, LSHIFT and RSHIFT are constantly in use in my basic typing technique style. I don't look at the keyboard 90% of the time as I cover letters and the number row. But I have to "break" the stand for anything special. I don't look when I break stand for the arrows, DEL and backspace and if they are not where expected, I screw up.

The KBT Pure Pro messes with my references because the backspace, DEL are lined up vertically. My positional reference for the DEL is higher-left of the up arrow. BEEP, wrong answer on the Pure. Speaking of the UP arrow, I don't expect a big fat return right above. Since this is the land of DEL.

Show Image

For the "extended" modifiers, I don't know if it is because I'm left handed but that is the hand and side I use to punch for (ALT, CTRL, WIN, etc...). I not only break stand for those, but I also look at the keyboard to locate them, which mean I don't really care where they are. I spot them first, then hit.

The more I look at the Pure (above), maybe I made the wrong choice and for my simple mind, a Poker (below) would have been a better choice. Thinking of it now, I'd rather relearn to FN the arrows, then mess with the right side of the cluster.

Show Image

source from dangwang.files.wordpress.com

So here's what went wrong in my 60% first time buying process. I got scared by the lack of arrow keys and neglected the major impact of messing with the right cluster layout. In all honesty, the arrow keys don't fall in the 90% usage. I think it would have been more ergonomic to locate the FN key on the left  side of the spacebar. On the other hand (pun intended) the right side FN allows to single hand handle the arrows with the thumb.

On my french AZERTY layout, I need the right Alt (it's called AltGr) to type the following characters, which are all located on the numeric row:
  ~ # { [ | ` \ ^ @ ] }
If I'm just typing text, I almost never need AltGr. But I soon as I have to type a command or do some serious work, I need AltGr all the time. So this key at the right of the space bar must be an Alt, not an Fn, or the manufacturer loses the ability to sell his keyboard in many places in the world.

[BucklingSpring]

-DELETE- Oups

[BucklingSpring]

On my french AZERTY layout, I need the right Alt (it's called AltGr) to type the following characters, which are all located on the numeric row:
  ~ # { [ | ` \ ^ @ ] }
If I'm just typing text, I almost never need AltGr. But I soon as I have to type a command or do some serious work, I need AltGr all the time. So this key at the right of the space bar must be an Alt, not an Fn, or the manufacturer loses the ability to sell his keyboard in many places in the world.

Est-ce que tu composes les combinaisons AltGR: ~ # { [ | ` \ ^ @ ] } sans regarder ton clavier et ou sans briser ta posture?

[spiceBar]

On my french AZERTY layout, I need the right Alt (it's called AltGr) to type the following characters, which are all located on the numeric row:
  ~ # { [ | ` \ ^ @ ] }
If I'm just typing text, I almost never need AltGr. But I soon as I have to type a command or do some serious work, I need AltGr all the time. So this key at the right of the space bar must be an Alt, not an Fn, or the manufacturer loses the ability to sell his keyboard in many places in the world.

Est-ce que tu composes les combinaisons AltGR: ~ # { [ | ` \ ^ @ ] } sans regarder ton clavier et ou sans briser ta posture?

Je suis obligé de regarder le clavier. Et bien sûr ça me fait sortir de la position optimale. Mais de toutes façons je ne peux pas faire de "touch-typing" quand je travaille, à cause de tous ces symboles éparpillés sur tout le clavier. D'ailleurs de façon générale je ne suis pas un "touch-typist". Presque, mais pas vraiment. Le fait d'avoir besoin, constamment, de déplacer ses mains pour aller chercher Ctrl, Alt, Shift avec la main gauche et les flèches avec la main droite n'arrange rien.


--- EDIT ---

ENGLISH HERE:
BucklingSpring asks me if I have to look at the keyboard to compose AltGr characters and if that forces me to leave the home row.

I answer that yes, I'm forced to look at the keyboard and I'm forced to leave the home row. But anyway I can't touch type when I work, because of all these symbols you have to reach all over the keyboard. Anyway I'm not really a touch typist. Almost but not really. The fact that I have to reach for Ctrl, Alt and Shift with my right hand and for the arrows with my right hand only makes matters worse.

[BlueBär]

Oh and I thought I would be in an english forum. I guess I should start speaking german here, too...

[Emmiya]

The right Alt key is absolutely fundamental for several European languages (it's called AltGr in this case). Messing with it is not good for your health if you are a keyboard manufacturer.

Aaaand there it is. I totally forgot that people spoke other languages(who would have thought that!) Thanks for correcting me <3

You won't have to wait that long.  I'll be disclosing some major details next week.  January is just for the case drawings.

Exciting can't wait.

An AutoHotkey script is your best bet for this.  Very easy to swap Alt & Ctrl this way.

Never thought of that, thanks. Will give it a try on my pure.

Yes, that will be supported, along with a separate Delete key.

There will be separate arrow keys.  No need to go to the Fn layer for them.

Excellent think you pretty much just guaranteed yourself at least one sale. <3


Edit: I'm kinda new to the whole collecting thing, didn't actually realize who you were Matias. Just took a look at your site. Excellent work with the other keyboards, so I can only assume that this 60% will also be high quality. My anticipation levels just went through the roof.

This is what i'd consider my "perfect" keyboard(on MX Browns). I fully understand it would be impossible to mass-produce due to alienating practically everyone except me , but one could dream.
HNNNNG just realised, my layout is quite practically a KMAC Mini minus the function keys(could manage without a R Fn & |\ key). What a shame I cant just buy one and cut the pcb.

[spiceBar]

Oh and I thought I would be in an english forum. I guess I should start speaking german here, too...

OK, I surrender.

Actually you are absolutely right. I don't like it either when people start speaking in their own language and I'm left wondering what's going on.

 I'm going to include an English translation in my post.

[BucklingSpring]

Ok - Guilty as charged... I started the whole controversy by throwing few French words. Wooooooooo I'm bad, please spank me. (Preferably a young and pretty geekhack-her )

Anyway spice, it tends to confirm what I thought. We have more resilience to adapt to a new layout when it doesn't affect the automations developed for touch typing. I don't handle blindly a full size keyboard. But

My brain maps a full size keyboard in 4 clusters: Main, function Keys, navigation and numpad. I break position each time I leave the main cluster. Also the navigation, ESC, INS, DEL are done blind and I need to look at the function and numpad clusters or any ALT, CTRL, FN combos. I don't really care where a 60% locate any keys I have to look at anyway.

[spiceBar]

Ok - Guilty as charged... I started the whole controversy by throwing few French words. Wooooooooo I'm bad, please spank me. (Preferably a young and pretty geekhack-her )

Anyway spice, it tends to confirm what I thought. We have more resilience to adapt to a new layout when it doesn't affect the automations developed for touch typing. I don't handle blindly a full size keyboard. But

My brain maps a full size keyboard in 4 clusters: Main, function Keys, navigation and numpad. I break position each time I leave the main cluster. Also the navigation, ESC, INS, DEL are done blind and I need to look at the function and numpad clusters or any ALT, CTRL, FN combos. I don't really care where a 60% locate any keys I have to look at anyway.

I don't know if you have seen the discussion about SpaceFN, but for reference it's there:
  http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51069.0

It works very well and one of the benefits is that you don't move your hands from the home row when you use the navigation keys (Arrows, Home/End, PgUp/PgDn).

If you are on a Mac or on a Windows PC you can try it easily without changing anything to your current keyboard. If it works for you, you may realize that adding arrow keys on the typewriter part of a keyboard (as on the Pure Pro) has never been necessary.

[BucklingSpring]

I don't know if you have seen the discussion about SpaceFN, but for reference it's there:
  http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51069.0

It works very well and one of the benefits is that you don't move your hands from the home row when you use the navigation keys (Arrows, Home/End, PgUp/PgDn).

Cool - I totally missed this thread. That is indeed a very interesting concept. It would be something I'd be welling to try. In the same line, I like how the Poker I works too.

[spiceBar]

I don't know if you have seen the discussion about SpaceFN, but for reference it's there:
  http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51069.0

It works very well and one of the benefits is that you don't move your hands from the home row when you use the navigation keys (Arrows, Home/End, PgUp/PgDn).

Cool - I totally missed this thread. That is indeed a very interesting concept. It would be something I'd be welling to try. In the same line, I like how the Poker I works too.

You should try it! Your feedback is welcome.

If you have a Windows machine or a Mac, the software simulations are already available. So you can use your current keyboard, whatever it is, to try SpaceFN. If your keyboard has a space bar and a few letters on the right side, it will work!

We have not been able to work out a software simulation for Linux yet.

And you know what? I'm currently using SpaceFN on a Poker I. It's one of the best keyboards for SpaceFN at this time, just because it has an almost standard layout.

[BucklingSpring]

And you know what? I'm currently using SpaceFN on a Poker I. It's one of the best keyboards for SpaceFN at this time, just because it has an almost standard layout.

I'll lookup the simulation software and try it. (Did you made a script for Autohotkey?)

Wanna swap your Poker I with my Pure Pro? I just posted it in the Classified.

[spiceBar]

And you know what? I'm currently using SpaceFN on a Poker I. It's one of the best keyboards for SpaceFN at this time, just because it has an almost standard layout.

I'll lookup the simulation software and try it. (Did you made a script for Autohotkey?)

Wanna swap your Poker I with my Pure Pro? I just posted it in the Classified.

The Windows version of SpaceFN is indeed an AHK script written by Lydell.

I already have 2 Pure Pro, and they are good keyboards. But now that I know that I don't need dedicated arrows anymore, I'm not sure what I'm going to do with them.

Soon the Poker is going to receive a converter that will turn it into a hardware SpaceFN keyboard. It may become my travel keyboard because it is light.

[Matias]

Yes, that will be supported, along with a separate Delete key.

There will be separate arrow keys.  No need to go to the Fn layer for them.

Excellent think you pretty much just guaranteed yourself at least one sale. <3


Edit: I'm kinda new to the whole collecting thing, didn't actually realize who you were Matias. Just took a look at your site. Excellent work with the other keyboards, so I can only assume that this 60% will also be high quality. My anticipation levels just went through the roof.

Thanks. 

This is what i'd consider my "perfect" keyboard(on MX Browns). I fully understand it would be impossible to mass-produce due to alienating practically everyone except me , but one could dream.
HNNNNG just realised, my layout is quite practically a KMAC Mini minus the function keys(could manage without a R Fn & |\ key). What a shame I cant just buy one and cut the pcb.

On our 60%, you won't need the Fn key for very much, so it will only have one (on the left).

[Emmiya]

On our 60%, you won't need the Fn key for very much, so it will only have one (on the left).

Excellent I can't wait to see what you have in store. You make it sound so exciting!

[spremino]

The attraction lies in their minimalism, neither efficiency nor comfort.

[TacticalCoder]

Est-ce que tu composes les combinaisons AltGR: ~ # { [ | ` \ ^ @ ] } sans regarder ton clavier et ou sans briser ta posture?

I chime in since this may interest you: I used to touch-type in AZERTY a long time ago (now I'm QWERTY only) and I did touch-type every single key, including all the AltGr combination and including the function keys too. Actually I've worked on an "otaku" IBM Model M for years (which a blank keys, without any writing on them).

The only way to be able to touch-type AltGr (when it's at the right of your spacebar -- not if you've remapped it somewhere else) + all the combo is to hit AltGr with your right-thumb.

For ~, # {  and [ there's no real issue: that's 2,3,4 and 5 + AltGr... That's easy to reach (you use your right-hand to do AltGr and your left one for the combo).

Then | ` \ ^ @ ] and } can be touch-typed too, as long as you use your right-thumb to hit AltGr. I'm not going to say that's it's "convenient" but, to me, if you want to type fast you can't hunt & peck and must touch-type.

The problem if you try to hit AltGr with any other finger than your right thumb is that then there are keys which you cannot reach anymore with the "correct" finger. For example if you touch-type '0' with your pinky and 'à' (that would be left-shift + '0') with your pinky too, it makes no sense to then hit that same physical key to produce @ with anything else than your pinky (IIRC in french AZERTY 0, à and @ are all done with the '0' key). If you want to use another finger than your pinky to hit AltGr, then it's going to be very hard to reach 0 with your pinky. Same problem with the other fingers, besides your right thumb.

So on AZERTY you either use your right-thumb to hit AltGr or you accept that you'll never be touch-typing some characters. I was touch-typing everything (and I still am) so I got "used" to use nothing but my thumbs to hit Alt and AltGr.

For many reasons I decided years ago to switch to QWERTY: # { [ | \ being on AltGr being one of the reason (I don't care much about ']', '}' and ')' in these days and age of editors with autoclosing parentheses). Another reason is that both left-**** and enter are narrower on AZERTY: making them way more painful to reach (your fingers need to travel more up to the point where your hands move slightly more than on a QWERTY keyboard to reach these two keys and that quickly adds up). Another reason is the bigger choice of ANSI keyboards / keycaps set. So I dropped ISO and turned to ANSI.

So now I'm exclusively using QWERTY (but with an Alt that acts as an additional modifier, giving me arrow keys on {IJKL}, Home, End, Escape and all the french characters conveniently located). I do still touch-type everything.

The "thumbs to press Alt's" is the reason I'm now considering 60% keyboards with smaller spacebar like the japanese HHKB or the KBT Pure Pro (or maybe the Filco minila). I really wish more manufacturers would create keyboards with tinier spacebars: it's pretty much an accepted in the ergonomic-keyboard world that thumbs are very useful to hit modifiers. Yet for "regular" keyboards we're pretty much stuck with 6x, 7x and bigger spacebars 

[spiceBar]

Est-ce que tu composes les combinaisons AltGR: ~ # { [ | ` \ ^ @ ] } sans regarder ton clavier et ou sans briser ta posture?

I chime in since this may interest you: I used to touch-type in AZERTY a long time ago (now I'm QWERTY only) and I did touch-type every single key, including all the AltGr combination and including the function keys too. Actually I've worked on an "otaku" IBM Model M for years (which a blank keys, without any writing on them).

The only way to be able to touch-type AltGr (when it's at the right of your spacebar -- not if you've remapped it somewhere else) + all the combo is to hit AltGr with your right-thumb.

For ~, # {  and [ there's no real issue: that's 2,3,4 and 5 + AltGr... That's easy to reach (you use your right-hand to do AltGr and your left one for the combo).

Then | ` \ ^ @ ] and } can be touch-typed too, as long as you use your right-thumb to hit AltGr. I'm not going to say that's it's "convenient" but, to me, if you want to type fast you can't hunt & peck and must touch-type.

The problem if you try to hit AltGr with any other finger than your right thumb is that then there are keys which you cannot reach anymore with the "correct" finger. For example if you touch-type '0' with your pinky and 'à' (that would be left-shift + '0') with your pinky too, it makes no sense to then hit that same physical key to produce @ with anything else than your pinky (IIRC in french AZERTY 0, à and @ are all done with the '0' key). If you want to use another finger than your pinky to hit AltGr, then it's going to be very hard to reach 0 with your pinky. Same problem with the other fingers, besides your right thumb.

So on AZERTY you either use your right-thumb to hit AltGr or you accept that you'll never be touch-typing some characters. I was touch-typing everything (and I still am) so I got "used" to use nothing but my thumbs to hit Alt and AltGr.

For many reasons I decided years ago to switch to QWERTY: # { [ | \ being on AltGr being one of the reason (I don't care much about ']', '}' and ')' in these days and age of editors with autoclosing parentheses). Another reason is that both left-**** and enter are narrower on AZERTY: making them way more painful to reach (your fingers need to travel more up to the point where your hands move slightly more than on a QWERTY keyboard to reach these two keys and that quickly adds up). Another reason is the bigger choice of ANSI keyboards / keycaps set. So I dropped ISO and turned to ANSI.

So now I'm exclusively using QWERTY (but with an Alt that acts as an additional modifier, giving me arrow keys on {IJKL}, Home, End, Escape and all the french characters conveniently located). I do still touch-type everything.

The "thumbs to press Alt's" is the reason I'm now considering 60% keyboards with smaller spacebar like the japanese HHKB or the KBT Pure Pro (or maybe the Filco minila). I really wish more manufacturers would create keyboards with tinier spacebars: it's pretty much an accepted in the ergonomic-keyboard world that thumbs are very useful to hit modifiers. Yet for "regular" keyboards we're pretty much stuck with 6x, 7x and bigger spacebars 

I have switched to the ANSI layout as well, but I still use it in AZERTY. The larger left Shift, better symmetry overall and the larger choice of fine keyboards and keycaps won me to ANSI.

I tried to type in QWERTY for a while. Years ago my first computer was a TRS-80, so I have learned to type on QWERTY (and on a mechanical keyboard dammit!). But I type as much in French as in English and typing the accentuated characters was a pain. I tried remapping the most used ones in the AltGr layer, but it was still a pain. I gave up.

It is very convenient that the only missing key on an ANSI keyboard is the key that does superscript 2 (Shifted, it gives superscript n). It's a mostly useless key, so I don't miss it. I could have remapped it somewhere else anyway.

[Pyrolistical]

There is such a thing as "too small"

I think your Tactile Mini Pro is perfect.  It actually can't get any smaller, otherwise you'll have to accept trade offs.

Trade offs I don't like:

• function layer - NO.  I know enough key combinations with ctrl/alt/meta thank you very much
• missing F1-F12 keys - I don't see how you can have these without a function layer
• shorten left shift to fit arrow keys - Do not do this!  I've done this on my own custom keyboard (http://pyrolistical.github.io/blog/2012/08/11/full-custom-keypoard/).  I kept hitting the up arrow with my pinky and is the main reason why I don't use that keyboard today

Your Tactile Mini Pro is already the smallest 10keyless there is, its small enough.

[gropingmantis]

There is such a thing as "too small"

I think your Tactile Mini Pro is perfect.  It actually can't get any smaller, otherwise you'll have to accept trade offs.

Trade offs I don't like:

• function layer - NO.  I know enough key combinations with ctrl/alt/meta thank you very much
• missing F1-F12 keys - I don't see how you can have these without a function layer
• shorten left shift to fit arrow keys - Do not do this!  I've done this on my own custom keyboard (http://pyrolistical.github.io/blog/2012/08/11/full-custom-keypoard/).  I kept hitting the up arrow with my pinky and is the main reason why I don't use that keyboard today

Your Tactile Mini Pro is already the smallest 10keyless there is, its small enough.

I disagree.
TKL still contains so many redundant/rarely used keys. Print Screen/System Request, Pause/Break (which no longer serves any purpose), Scroll Lock (Ctrl+Up/Down or Page Up/Down do the same thing really), Insert (occasionally useful).
Missing F-keys? Is that really a massive issue? How often do you use them really? Enough that you could make do with holding another key to operate it? Probably.
Function Layer? This should never be an issue but keyboard companies always make it one. On a function layer you only need the keys that you would be missing from a TKL.
That means:

• Insert
• System Request (REISUB makes this pretty useful)
• Function Row, just put this on the number row!
• Arrow Keys. In an inverted T on ESDF please.
• Page Up/Down, Home, End. In an inverted T on IJKL please.
• ~` (Or ¬`| on UK layout) In its usual position as that key should be Escape in normal use.

Split Backspace to be Backspace and Delete.
Get rid of Caps Lock, replace it with Control. Put the function keys where the control keys were.
Done.

I'll just leave this here...


Apologies for the terrible picture but basically that.

[dustinhxc]

60% for life babyyyyyyyyyy 

[Pyrolistical]

I disagree.
...

If were to accept the function layer trade off, then that layout is pretty nice, except for the tiny backspace.  I would keep the full size backspace and function layer the delete.  The insert key can be function layered with Enter.  Also, move the arrow keys to wasd.  That's what gamers are used to anyways.

As for print screen, scroll lock, and page break, what are those things?  I don't have those keys on my Mac keyboard =P

[osi]

There is such a thing as "too small"

I think your Tactile Mini Pro is perfect.  It actually can't get any smaller, otherwise you'll have to accept trade offs.

Trade offs I don't like:

• function layer - NO.  I know enough key combinations with ctrl/alt/meta thank you very much
• missing F1-F12 keys - I don't see how you can have these without a function layer
• shorten left shift to fit arrow keys - Do not do this!  I've done this on my own custom keyboard (http://pyrolistical.github.io/blog/2012/08/11/full-custom-keypoard/).  I kept hitting the up arrow with my pinky and is the main reason why I don't use that keyboard today

Your Tactile Mini Pro is already the smallest 10keyless there is, its small enough.

I disagree.
TKL still contains so many redundant/rarely used keys. Print Screen/System Request, Pause/Break (which no longer serves any purpose), Scroll Lock (Ctrl+Up/Down or Page Up/Down do the same thing really), Insert (occasionally useful).
Missing F-keys? Is that really a massive issue? How often do you use them really? Enough that you could make do with holding another key to operate it? Probably.
Function Layer? This should never be an issue but keyboard companies always make it one. On a function layer you only need the keys that you would be missing from a TKL.
That means:

• Insert
• System Request (REISUB makes this pretty useful)
• Function Row, just put this on the number row!
• Arrow Keys. In an inverted T on ESDF please.
• Page Up/Down, Home, End. In an inverted T on IJKL please.
• ~` (Or ¬`| on UK layout) In its usual position as that key should be Escape in normal use.

Split Backspace to be Backspace and Delete.
Get rid of Caps Lock, replace it with Control. Put the function keys where the control keys were.
Done.

I'll just leave this here...

Show Image

Apologies for the terrible picture but basically that.

gropingmantis,

Corrected your layout :

Arrow Keys. In an inverted T on ESDF please.  [Instead of RDFG]
Page Up/Down, Home, End. In an inverted T on IJKL please. [Instead of OKL;]

[spiceBar]

Maybe you could just use SpaceFN, then?

  http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51069.msg1121957#msg1121957

[gropingmantis]

There is such a thing as "too small"

I think your Tactile Mini Pro is perfect.  It actually can't get any smaller, otherwise you'll have to accept trade offs.

Trade offs I don't like:

• function layer - NO.  I know enough key combinations with ctrl/alt/meta thank you very much
• missing F1-F12 keys - I don't see how you can have these without a function layer
• shorten left shift to fit arrow keys - Do not do this!  I've done this on my own custom keyboard (http://pyrolistical.github.io/blog/2012/08/11/full-custom-keypoard/).  I kept hitting the up arrow with my pinky and is the main reason why I don't use that keyboard today

Your Tactile Mini Pro is already the smallest 10keyless there is, its small enough.

I disagree.
TKL still contains so many redundant/rarely used keys. Print Screen/System Request, Pause/Break (which no longer serves any purpose), Scroll Lock (Ctrl+Up/Down or Page Up/Down do the same thing really), Insert (occasionally useful).
Missing F-keys? Is that really a massive issue? How often do you use them really? Enough that you could make do with holding another key to operate it? Probably.
Function Layer? This should never be an issue but keyboard companies always make it one. On a function layer you only need the keys that you would be missing from a TKL.
That means:

• Insert
• System Request (REISUB makes this pretty useful)
• Function Row, just put this on the number row!
• Arrow Keys. In an inverted T on ESDF please.
• Page Up/Down, Home, End. In an inverted T on IJKL please.
• ~` (Or ¬`| on UK layout) In its usual position as that key should be Escape in normal use.

Split Backspace to be Backspace and Delete.
Get rid of Caps Lock, replace it with Control. Put the function keys where the control keys were.
Done.

I'll just leave this here...

Show Image

Apologies for the terrible picture but basically that.

gropingmantis,

Corrected your layout :

Arrow Keys. In an inverted T on ESDF please.  [Instead of RDFG]
Page Up/Down, Home, End. In an inverted T on IJKL please. [Instead of OKL;]

Thanks for fixing the picture. I adapted it from my personal ISO layout as more people can relate to the ANSI layout.

Personally I use UK ISO so for my GH60 I have Arrows on WASD and PG up/dn home end on {:@~ however if I was a keyboard company looking to pleas as many people as possible then I would have gone for the home position inverted T. Personally I am not using the FN keys I put there and having an HHKB style layout with blanks and a split right shift.

Largely I feel like the layout I posted would be a reasonable compromise for the majority of people. Complex function layers (ones that include redundant keys or media keys) are pointless and just mean that people avoid your keyboard. That is the biggest issue with current 60% keyboards.


edit:

Maybe you could just use SpaceFN, then?

  http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51069.msg1121957#msg1121957

spaceFN is something I have looked at intently but personally I will be using the split right shift to have an MX lock for fn lock which will be super useful for using arrow keys for navigation for those programs that do not have a vi/vim navigation plugin.

[IMHB]

60% boards = light, small, convenience.

Their function keys can turn any 60% to 80% no problem~

also, they're the easiest to mod~!!

[Air tree]

60% for life babyyyyyyyyyy 

Do you game at all dustin? Just wondering if it gets it your way at any times. 60% that is

[BlueBär]

Do you game at all dustin? Just wondering if it gets it your way at any times. 60% that is

Show Image

60% is great for gaming imo. I play Arma 3 which uses I think all keys on a standard sized keyboard (including the Windows keys sometimes), but you usually just need a few of them; I think that is the case for many games. They offer keybindings for everything but in the end you barely use more than a few. I have two thumb buttons on my mouse (scope mode and view mode) and I know where page up/down (zeroing) is on the function layer - that's really all I need.

[Air tree]

Do you game at all dustin? Just wondering if it gets it your way at any times. 60% that is

Show Image

60% is great for gaming imo. I play Arma 3 which uses I think all keys on a standard sized keyboard (including the Windows keys sometimes), but you usually just need a few of them; I think that is the case for many games. They offer keybindings for everything but in the end you barely use more than a few. I have two thumb buttons on my mouse (scope mode and view mode) and I know where page up/down (zeroing) is on the function layer - that's really all I need.

Once i get my HHKB i'm a tiny bit worried about having to use two hands to hit like F1-F3 since my hands are just a little too small to be able to hit all the f keys with my left hand. So i would have to take my right hand off the mouse to hit the F1-F3 keys. But i'm guessing it won't bother me too much after i have used it for a while.

[yasuo]

http://i.imgur.com/szQhRbQ.png

[BlueBär]

http://i.imgur.com/szQhRbQ.png

Caps lock bigger than left shift? No thanks )

[yasuo]

http://i.imgur.com/szQhRbQ.png

Caps lock bigger than left shift? No thanks )

you can swap layout still trial

[rowdy]

60% means more room on the desk for a mouse.

Nothing worse than trying to spin around to the left, and the mouse hits the side of the larger keyboard.

[Elrick]

60% means more room on the desk for a mouse.

Nothing worse than trying to spin around to the left, and the mouse hits the side of the larger keyboard.

If you're stuck on a tiny desk with little to no available space than a 60% sized keyboard makes sense.  If you have a 3 x 6 meter desk then it's ludicrous to have a tiny 60%, instead any 104 key is highly desired.