60% boards - what's the attraction?

[davkol]

~ is not only the home directory, but also a prefix for backup files/directories, a non-breakable space in TeX, an operator in math and some programming languages (e.g. bitwise NOT) etc. The same key is used for backquote, something I use quite often in Markdown or Lisp.

The key is used in layouts other than US QWERTY as well. For example, Czech QWERTZ places the semicolon on that key.

[Matias]

And for Mac users (in addition to the Unix stuff), Command~ cycles through windows in the frontmost app.  It also cycles back a Command-Tab.

So, how do you do ~ on your 60% boards?

All the shipping 60 boards I've seen have it on the Esc's Fn layer by default.

[StylinGreymon]

On my Poker II, I moved Escape to Caps Lock, and switched `~ to ~`.

I never use grave, or whatever it's called.

[axiosjackson]

Been trying to get my head around why people like 60% keyboards so much.

Is it more than just the size?

Arrow keys would seem to be a problem, but perhaps I'm wrong about that.  You also sacrifice PgUp, PgDn, Home, and End.

Are they more popular with PC users than Mac?  Or are they more a Linux thing?

What makes a great 60% keyboard?

For me it is all about the ergonomics. I like the fact that my mouse is closer to my keyboard making doing work somewhat more comfortable, which equals more working time. I have both a Mac and a PC and I like using it with both because it is just that awesome. I have ordered a Mini Tactile keyboard from you guys and hope to use that with my Mac. The only thing I really miss is the arrow keys, which are under a layer of function keys. I find that a TKL board is accessible if there are other benefits to it(OSX function keys, high build quality, different switches, etc), but I prefer 60% to all.

[Matias]

Been trying to get my head around why people like 60% keyboards so much.

Is it more than just the size?

Arrow keys would seem to be a problem, but perhaps I'm wrong about that.  You also sacrifice PgUp, PgDn, Home, and End.

Are they more popular with PC users than Mac?  Or are they more a Linux thing?

What makes a great 60% keyboard?

For me it is all about the ergonomics. I like the fact that my mouse is closer to my keyboard making doing work somewhat more comfortable, which equals more working time. I have both a Mac and a PC and I like using it with both because it is just that awesome. I have ordered a Mini Tactile keyboard from you guys and hope to use that with my Mac. The only thing I really miss is the arrow keys, which are under a layer of function keys. I find that a TKL board is accessible if there are other benefits to it(OSX function keys, high build quality, different switches, etc), but I prefer 60% to all.

Thanks for your post.  Do you miss the ~ key at all?

I know some Mac users use it a lot (myself included).

[jacobolus]

I put ~ on a layer. Also, I set up cmd-tab / cmd-shift-tab / cmd-` / cmd-shift-` on an easy to reach layer so that moving between apps, windows, and tabs is very easy and never requires a double-modifier shortcut. (And I’m still furious at the way Apple has changed the way window layer ordering works for cmd-` in the past 2-3 versions of OS X; it’s dramatically less predictable and dramatically less useful than the way it used to work up through about 10.6 or so.)

[Lain1911]

I like the size and I think that the function layers are clever. Especially with programmable layers like the Poker 2 has, you can really customize and change the layout how you like. I find that the layout is comfortable for my hands and shoulders and is just great for typing. When I write reviews, it's just great to sit down with my Pure keyboard with Whites and type out a couple thousand words without any frills. Just feels good and is something different.

Edit: I use PC for what it's worth.

This, as well on a personal note the only thing I miss is my dedicated arrow keys. For me there are still many keys I don't use even on a tkl. Although talk to me 1-2 months ago I'd tell you I'd rather have a tkl and then a bought a poker 2. Still quite satisfied with my QFR though.

[spiceBar]

For the Tilde vs Esc problem, you may have a look at my GuiFN layout:
  http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57723.msg1313182#msg1313182

I believe there is actually no need for an additional key.

Thanks, I hadn't seen that yet.

It's interesting that you chose essentially the same position for the Tilde key.

Initially I was just going to do it like in SpaceFN, and as everybody else does, with Fn-Esc.

Then I realized that this Caps Lock key could find a much better use.

I have now retrofitted SpaceFN with the same trick (backquote/tilde on Caps Lock, Caps Lock done with Fn-CapsLock).

One thing that I would like to stress out is that the Esc key is a key that developers now use constantly. The culprit is autocompletion. In modern IDEs, when you start typing a few letters the IDE opens a list of all words and symbols that may correspond to these letters. You need to press Esc to close this list, or else one of the items in the list is going to be validated when you press space or any other punctuation symbol.

For example when typing C# code, just type the letter "i" and you already have a list of possible completions (basically any variable, class or method name that has a "i" in it). Most of the time in this case you will have to close the list by pressing Esc. It's not the only way, but it's important to note that you end up pressing Esc several times for each line of code you type.

For this reason, in SpaceFN and GuiFN I have now opted to NOT overload the Esc key. I mean that Fn-Esc does Esc. I got caught too many times pressing Esc while I was still holding the Fn key.

In your case, it would mean that you need to make Esc very accessible. Only your option 3 does that cleanly.

For the navigation cluster, I would recommend option A.

People who use their keyboard heavily for text editing need to do all kind of chords with Ctrl and Shift. Adding another key to chord with, just do to Home/End/PgUp/PgDn is a pain. It's a pain because there are already many chords with these keys (Ctrl-Home to go to the start of document, Ctrl-End for end of document, Shift-Home to select to start of line, and so on).

Good points.  I'm currently siding with 3A, eventhough my personal favourite is 2A (which I fear is a little too strange).

Option 1 is clearly the worse. If you are going to have a narrow key, it's better to put it on the edge of the keyboard, because there is no key at its left to press accidentally.

I'm reluctant to mess with the Caps Lock key too much.  I don't use it myself, but I know writers for whom it would be a dealbreaker, and coders who would remap it to Ctrl. Option 3 has it 1.25u wide, which should be wide enough to still feel normal.

Are you going to have DIP switches to configure a few options? In this case, just offer the ability to have either CapsLock or backquote directly accessible. I would guess that the set of people who want one option has a small intersection with the set of people who want the other one.

I don't really see people who need frequent access to CapsLock having also a need to access frequently the backquote/tilde.

Also, the position and shape of your left Fn key makes it very easy to press Fn-CapsLock, which mitigates a little bit the problem.

Cramming an additional key in there (and it's a narrow one) is not really elegant.

My plan is to make this a group buy that eventually becomes a product.  The GB would include a PCB-without-switches option that supports both Nav cluster options A and B, for those with a strong preference.

We'll also be selling the keycaps that make this layout possible, so anybody who wants to do a more traditional 60% (or programmable version) can roll their own.

I think this could be a wildly popular option.

Do I read correctly that your keyboard's firmware will be programmable? 

One last remark: I think that on your keyboard there is one key that would actually benefit from being narrower. It's the Del key. It's in an area that is going to see high traffic (right Shift and arrows are there), so making it slightly smaller would probably prevent a few disasters. And it would not really be much harder to reach, as it would be on the edge of the keyboard, and easy to locate by feel as it is above a void. It's actually located in a corner, so it doesn't hurt if it is smaller than the other keys.

[spiceBar]

How about something like this:

(Attachment Link)

You can index to the arrow cluster already from the bottom right corner, so you don't really need the gaps above the left and right arrows. It seems natural to me to use those spaces for Home and End, since those are the directions the cursor goes when you use them. Then you can have a "standard" top row, Esc, numbers, backspace.

It would definitely be useable, but having gaps in the arrows cluster is brilliant. It gives tactile clues, the kind you have on a full size keyboard or on a TKL, and the kind you miss a lot on a 60% board.

Trying to use that space to cram in more keys is not worth it.

[jacobolus]

One thing that I would like to stress out is that the Esc key is a key that developers now use constantly. The culprit is autocompletion. In modern IDEs, when you start typing a few letters the IDE opens a list of all words and symbols that may correspond to these letters. You need to press Esc to close this list, or else one of the items in the list is going to be validated when you press space or any other punctuation symbol.

For example when typing C# code, just type the letter "i" and you already have a list of possible completions (basically any variable, class or method name that has a "i" in it). Most of the time in this case you will have to close the list by pressing Esc. It's not the only way, but it's important to note that you end up pressing Esc several times for each line of code you type.

For this reason, in SpaceFN and GuiFN I have now opted to NOT overload the Esc key. I mean that Fn-Esc does Esc. I got caught too many times pressing Esc while I was still holding the Fn key.

It’s a bit off topic, but it sounds like you might like a layout something like:

[Oobly]

And for Mac users (in addition to the Unix stuff), Command~ cycles through windows in the frontmost app.  It also cycles back a Command-Tab.

So, how do you do ~ on your 60% boards?

All the shipping 60 boards I've seen have it on the Esc's Fn layer by default.

KBT Pure has it as my picture showed, as a small key to the right of shift. It's a handy location. IMHO, the Pure layout and Fn layer are VERY good, best of the unprogrammable 60% layouts (after using it for a few months for development I realised how good it really is). Some would argue that the HHKB layout is better, but I prefer the Pure layout for a few reasons: Inverted T arrow cluster is easier to use and you can even toggle the right hand modifiers to become an arrow cluster, Fn button location allows you to reach more keys with one hand, positioning of Home and End are easy to get used to and the "normal" symbols on those keys hint at their Fn functions (< and >), default layer is standard so you can instantly type quickly on it (muscle memory) except for Esc and `~, but they're both on the default layer which is nice and the positions are very easy to get used to.

[davkol]

I don't really see people who need frequent access to CapsLock having also a need to access frequently the backquote/tilde.

I do see them, if you mean the backquote/tilde *key*. It's anyone, who uses Czech/Slovak QWERTZ/QWERTY (maybe some other national layout as well), a semicolon (quite common in C-like programming languages) and SQL or upper case letters with diacritic marks (most letters with diacritic marks are on the number row, but their shifted states are numbers, thus you have to use AltGr for "programming" symbols and Caps Lock or inconveniently placed dead keys for upper case letters with diacritic marks).

What I've just described is... wait for it... thousands of mostly web coders.

[spiceBar]

I don't really see people who need frequent access to CapsLock having also a need to access frequently the backquote/tilde.

I do see them, if you mean the backquote/tilde *key*. It's anyone, who uses Czech/Slovak QWERTZ/QWERTY (maybe some other national layout as well), a semicolon (quite common in C-like programming languages) and SQL or upper case letters with diacritic marks (most letters with diacritic marks are on the number row, but their shifted states are numbers, thus you have to use AltGr for "programming" symbols and Caps Lock or inconveniently placed dead keys for upper case letters with diacritic marks).

What I've just described is... wait for it... thousands of mostly web coders.

My native layout is french AZERTY, so I understand what you are talking about. I do have to use dead keys for some accentuated characters, I do have to use AltGr for very common characters like "[" and "]", the most common accentuated characters are on the number row, and so I do have to use Shift to type numbers.

But what are the specifics of your national layout that are not correctly addressed by having CapsLock do backquote/tilde (which is semicolon on your keyboard as far as I can tell)?

Is it because you need CapsLock to type numbers more easily?

[chuckading]

I feel the 60% boards are a way to express minimalism in modern technology. I find myself using virtual keyboards more often than mechanical these days as I'm typically not in need of a desktop environment.  My mech keyboards and the functions I've assigned to particular keys and key groups are something I'm proud of. I feel superior to those with stock keyboards, because I personally arranged and understand all the keys on my boards. My main board is completely blank and ten-keyless and I feel each key is worth more when there are less of them. 

I've left the keyboard world for well over a year now, but a nice ~60% is the only board I still lust for. Mainly because each key will mean that much more, and must completely justify its place on the board. That is why I like these smaller boards.

My HHKB Pro does not satisfy this need, mainly because of a lack of arrow keys. I also prefer the potential durability, modularity and options of MX switches.

Been away for a while, what's the absolute best boards in the 60% category that play well with OSX, and will enable me to go crazy with keys at WASD keyboards?

[davkol]

I don't really see people who need frequent access to CapsLock having also a need to access frequently the backquote/tilde.

I do see them, if you mean the backquote/tilde *key*. It's anyone, who uses Czech/Slovak QWERTZ/QWERTY (maybe some other national layout as well), a semicolon (quite common in C-like programming languages) and SQL or upper case letters with diacritic marks (most letters with diacritic marks are on the number row, but their shifted states are numbers, thus you have to use AltGr for "programming" symbols and Caps Lock or inconveniently placed dead keys for upper case letters with diacritic marks).

What I've just described is... wait for it... thousands of mostly web coders.

My native layout is french AZERTY, so I understand what you are talking about. I do have to use dead keys for some accentuated characters, I do have to use AltGr for very common characters like "[" and "]", the most common accentuated characters are on the number row, and so I do have to use Shift to type numbers.

But what are the specifics of your national layout that are not correctly addressed by having CapsLock do backquote/tilde (which is semicolon on your keyboard as far as I can tell)?

Is it because you need CapsLock to type numbers more easily?

Most people use Caps Lock to type upper-case letters with diacritic marks (e.g. Č, Ž, Ř, Á,...), Shift for numbers (if they don't use the numpad) and AltGr for those "programming" symbols.

[spiceBar]

I feel the 60% boards are a way to express minimalism in modern technology. I find myself using virtual keyboards more often than mechanical these days as I'm typically not in need of a desktop environment.  My mech keyboards and the functions I've assigned to particular keys and key groups are something I'm proud of. I feel superior to those with stock keyboards, because I personally arranged and understand all the keys on my boards. My main board is completely blank and ten-keyless and I feel each key is worth more when there are less of them. 

I've left the keyboard world for well over a year now, but a nice ~60% is the only board I still lust for. Mainly because each key will mean that much more, and must completely justify its place on the board. That is why I like these smaller boards.

My HHKB Pro does not satisfy this need, mainly because of a lack of arrow keys. I also prefer the potential durability, modularity and options of MX switches.

Been away for a while, what's the absolute best boards in the 60% category that play well with OSX, and will enable me to go crazy with keys at WASD keyboards?

The GH60, but you would have to wait for some time.

The Poker 2 allows you some reprogramming and is very popular. You can customize the keys (they are absolutely all standard) and the case (there are beautiful aluminum cases).

The Poker X is a great choice in my opinion because you can attach Hasu's PS2->USB converter to it and turn it into a FULLY programmable keyboard thanks to the TMK firmware. You can also customize the keycaps (they are all standard), and the case. The problem is that it is not produced anymore so it has become harder to find.

The KBT pure can also be used with Hasu's PS2->USB converter, but it has 2 non-standard keys (the right Shift and a key located at its right). The case can be customized.

NOTE: the Poker 2 cannot be used with Hasu's PS2->USB converter because it is not compatible with PS/2 (it's really USB only, attaching a passive PS/2 adapter doesn't turn it into a PS/2 keyboard). So you have to use its built-in programming features.

All these keyboards have not been designed for OS X, but they work well with it. I know it because I own them all except the Pure and I'm a Mac (and Linux) user. You may have to swap Cmd and Option in the system preferences, or exchange the keycaps, or use KeyRemap4MacBook to do some magic. But they work fine on the Mac.

[spiceBar]

I don't really see people who need frequent access to CapsLock having also a need to access frequently the backquote/tilde.

I do see them, if you mean the backquote/tilde *key*. It's anyone, who uses Czech/Slovak QWERTZ/QWERTY (maybe some other national layout as well), a semicolon (quite common in C-like programming languages) and SQL or upper case letters with diacritic marks (most letters with diacritic marks are on the number row, but their shifted states are numbers, thus you have to use AltGr for "programming" symbols and Caps Lock or inconveniently placed dead keys for upper case letters with diacritic marks).

What I've just described is... wait for it... thousands of mostly web coders.

My native layout is french AZERTY, so I understand what you are talking about. I do have to use dead keys for some accentuated characters, I do have to use AltGr for very common characters like "[" and "]", the most common accentuated characters are on the number row, and so I do have to use Shift to type numbers.

But what are the specifics of your national layout that are not correctly addressed by having CapsLock do backquote/tilde (which is semicolon on your keyboard as far as I can tell)?

Is it because you need CapsLock to type numbers more easily?

Most people use Caps Lock to type upper-case letters with diacritic marks (e.g. Č, Ž, Ř, Á,...), Shift for numbers (if they don't use the numpad) and AltGr for those "programming" symbols.

So the problem for Czech users would be the uppercase diacritics?

We have the same problem in French, but the convention about accentuated uppercase symbol is to type the letter without the accent (when it preserves the meaning of the sentence, which is almost always the case).

For example instead of typing:
  "Évènement spécial"
we would simply type:
  "Evènement spécial"

This convention is very old, I think it predates the era of typewriters.

Do you have the same convention, or is it unacceptable in Czech?

[davkol]

Many people type completely without diacritic marks, but it's sometimes a source of misunderstandings. One of the better know examples is skolit¹ and školit².

¹ Oxford Dictionary

fell
  2  (written) to make sb fall to the ground:
He felled his opponent with a single blow.

² Oxford Dictionary

school
  2  [VN] (formal) to educate a child:
She should be schooled with her peers.

[spiceBar]

Many people type completely without diacritic marks, but it's sometimes a source of misunderstandings. One of the better know examples is skolit¹ and školit².

¹ Oxford Dictionary

fell
  2  (written) to make sb fall to the ground:
He felled his opponent with a single blow.

² Oxford Dictionary

school
  2  [VN] (formal) to educate a child:
She should be schooled with her peers.

OK, then as far as I can tell it's very similar to what we do in French.

So maybe the fact that you access to CapsLock with Fn-CapsLock is not going to turn too many people off, as the use of CapsLock is (or can) be limited to those cases where the meaning of the sentence would be different by not using the uppercase diacritic.

Naturally if you design a web page you know your text will get wide exposure, so you may need to use the diacritics everywhere, but it's still about using Fn-CapsLock instead of CapsLock, and only in the places where the character must be in uppercase.

Having direct access to CapsLock sure is nice, but if it comes at the cost of either having a cramped Esc or a split CapsLock, I'm not sure it's a good deal.

[Oobly]

Many people type completely without diacritic marks, but it's sometimes a source of misunderstandings. One of the better know examples is skolit¹ and školit².

¹ Oxford Dictionary

fell
  2  (written) to make sb fall to the ground:
He felled his opponent with a single blow.

² Oxford Dictionary

school
  2  [VN] (formal) to educate a child:
She should be schooled with her peers.

Interesting that you can do both to someone at the same time. Bazinga!

[Matias]

For the navigation cluster, I would recommend option A.

People who use their keyboard heavily for text editing need to do all kind of chords with Ctrl and Shift. Adding another key to chord with, just do to Home/End/PgUp/PgDn is a pain. It's a pain because there are already many chords with these keys (Ctrl-Home to go to the start of document, Ctrl-End for end of document, Shift-Home to select to start of line, and so on).

Good points.  I'm currently siding with 3A, eventhough my personal favourite is 2A (which I fear is a little too strange).

Option 1 is clearly the worse. If you are going to have a narrow key, it's better to put it on the edge of the keyboard, because there is no key at its left to press accidentally.

Exactly correct.

In terms of usability, edge keys are bigger than their footprint.  Kind of a Fitts' Law scenario for key targets.

I'm reluctant to mess with the Caps Lock key too much.  I don't use it myself, but I know writers for whom it would be a dealbreaker, and coders who would remap it to Ctrl. Option 3 has it 1.25u wide, which should be wide enough to still feel normal.

Are you going to have DIP switches to configure a few options? In this case, just offer the ability to have either CapsLock or backquote directly accessible. I would guess that the set of people who want one option has a small intersection with the set of people who want the other one.

I don't really see people who need frequent access to CapsLock having also a need to access frequently the backquote/tilde.

Also, the position and shape of your left Fn key makes it very easy to press Fn-CapsLock, which mitigates a little bit the problem.

Cramming an additional key in there (and it's a narrow one) is not really elegant.

Yes, there will be DIPs.  I think the shrunken Tilde key will go though, into Fn layer instead.

My plan is to make this a group buy that eventually becomes a product.  The GB would include a PCB-without-switches option that supports both Nav cluster options A and B, for those with a strong preference.

We'll also be selling the keycaps that make this layout possible, so anybody who wants to do a more traditional 60% (or programmable version) can roll their own.

I think this could be a wildly popular option.

Yes, I think so too.

With the GB, we'll offer more options than you'd be able to get with a formal product.  For example, you'll be able to buy a bare PCB and other spare parts for future hacking.  We don't even stock that stuff for our other products.

Do I read correctly that your keyboard's firmware will be programmable? 

Well, the plan is to have an assigned code for every non-modifier key in the Fn layer, so you can capture and reassign it via a macro.

This project is already pretty ambitious; I don't want to overcomplicate it any more than absolutely necessary.  Also, once the case and caps are done, the essential elements are in place for some other party to hack together a new PCB with full programmability -- perhaps the GH60 guys can pick up the torch.

One last remark: I think that on your keyboard there is one key that would actually benefit from being narrower. It's the Del key. It's in an area that is going to see high traffic (right Shift and arrows are there), so making it slightly smaller would probably prevent a few disasters. And it would not really be much harder to reach, as it would be on the edge of the keyboard, and easy to locate by feel as it is above a void. It's actually located in a corner, so it doesn't hurt if it is smaller than the other keys.

That key was smaller in the original design, but I'm reluctant to use 3/4u keys where 1u fit.  They complicate the case design, and some people are put off by them.

[Matias]

I put ~ on a layer. Also, I set up cmd-tab / cmd-shift-tab / cmd-` / cmd-shift-` on an easy to reach layer so that moving between apps, windows, and tabs is very easy and never requires a double-modifier shortcut.

Wow, that pretty much solves my problem.  :-)

(And I’m still furious at the way Apple has changed the way window layer ordering works for cmd-` in the past 2-3 versions of OS X; it’s dramatically less predictable and dramatically less useful than the way it used to work up through about 10.6 or so.)

I haven't really noticed the change.  A bug perhaps?

[jacobolus]

(And I’m still furious at the way Apple has changed the way window layer ordering works for cmd-` in the past 2-3 versions of OS X; it’s dramatically less predictable and dramatically less useful than the way it used to work up through about 10.6 or so.)

I haven't really noticed the change.  A bug perhaps?

It’s definitely supposed to be a feature, but I consider it a bug.

The difference is that windows within an App used to have a strict order, established by when they were first opened. This meant you could go 3 windows forward, wait a while, and go three windows back, and know you were going to end up where you started.

Now what happens is every time you wait a while (not sure what the the precise time is, or maybe it requires taking some intermediate action?) after pressing ⌘` a few times, it moves whatever window you end up on to the top of the list. As a result, if you try to ⌘` through all your windows, every time you pause for a while they get reordered and you start back from the top of the stack. If you want to get to a window all the way at the end of the stack, you’ll need to go through all the windows at once, or you’ll never make it. Instead, you can use ⇧⌘` to get a consistent order: it’ll send you through your windows in backwards order, but it won’t change the order on you.

There are a lot of corner cases to the way the window reordering actually happens and what final order they get put into, so it’s very hard to predict exactly what will happen if you have lots of windows in an App and you aren’t playing close attention.

If you only have 2–4 windows in an App, it’s no big deal, but once you have 10+, it gets really annoying.

[Aidenknives]

After using a poker... I couldn't go back to tkl or full size... I'm stuck with 60% boards until my tastes change!

[Matias]

Thanks for all the feedback...

I've re-read every message in the thread, and will be posting the interest check soon for the new 60% keyboard.  All the graphics files are done, including some preliminary case drawings.  I just need to read through all the GB guidelines and write the posting.  Should be up in a few days.

Thanks again to everybody who participated in this thread.  It's been very educational.

[spiceBar]

Thanks for all the feedback...

I've re-read every message in the thread, and will be posting the interest check soon for the new 60% keyboard.  All the graphics files are done, including some preliminary case drawings.  I just need to read through all the GB guidelines and write the posting.  Should be up in a few days.

Thanks again for everybody who participated in this thread.  It's been very educational.

And what have you decided finally about options 1, 2, 3, A and B?

(I know I could just wait your post in a few days, but... )

[Matias]

Thanks for all the feedback...

I've re-read every message in the thread, and will be posting the interest check soon for the new 60% keyboard.  All the graphics files are done, including some preliminary case drawings.  I just need to read through all the GB guidelines and write the posting.  Should be up in a few days.

Thanks again for everybody who participated in this thread.  It's been very educational.

And what have you decided finally about options 1, 2, 3, A and B?

(I know I could just wait your post in a few days, but... )

Always happy to spoil a surprise...  :-)

I went with 3A *without* the Tilde key (fullsize Caps Lock) with PCB+plate support for 3B.

In other words, if you want Option A, you can get it fully assembled.  If you want Option B (or A), you can buy the essential parts and assemble it yourself.

This seemed like the best compromise, while keeping the keyboard the same width as other 60s.  It also means that only the bottom row has non-standard caps, which will make it easier to find keycap replacements for the others.

And if all that isn't enough, we plan to offer PCB+plate support for mounting Cherry switches on all the keys above the bottom row.  That will make it VERY easy to find replacement caps.  :-)

[BlueBär]

And if all that isn't enough, we plan to offer PCB+plate support for mounting Cherry switches on all the keys above the bottom row.  That will make it VERY easy to find replacement caps.  :-)

You're awesome.

[JaccoW]

I only now noticed this thread. 
Anyway, some more boards with your quiet switches are always welcome.
And I would love a numpad. 

[nukec]

My life changed since I am using 60% keyboard. Now I am confident man, living a dream.

 

[spiceBar]

Thanks for all the feedback...

I've re-read every message in the thread, and will be posting the interest check soon for the new 60% keyboard.  All the graphics files are done, including some preliminary case drawings.  I just need to read through all the GB guidelines and write the posting.  Should be up in a few days.

Thanks again for everybody who participated in this thread.  It's been very educational.

And what have you decided finally about options 1, 2, 3, A and B?

(I know I could just wait your post in a few days, but... )

Always happy to spoil a surprise...  :-)

I went with 3A *without* the Tilde key (fullsize Caps Lock) with PCB+plate support for 3B.

In other words, if you want Option A, you can get it fully assembled.  If you want Option B (or A), you can buy the essential parts and assemble it yourself.

This seemed like the best compromise, while keeping the keyboard the same width as other 60s.  It also means that only the bottom row has non-standard caps, which will make it easier to find keycap replacements for the others.

And if all that isn't enough, we plan to offer PCB+plate support for mounting Cherry switches on all the keys above the bottom row.  That will make it VERY easy to find replacement caps.  :-)

That's great!

[cuervo]

I like Poker II too (i mean it's external view), and even much more then Race II. But a lot of people in the forums say that does not fit for office use, i mean analytics in Excel and Word,because of absence dedicated arrow keys. As for me it I think that WASD arrows keys is even more comfortable, of course after some adaptation, but I could mistake. In this case you do not need to move your hand far away from home position on the keyboard... I have no
choice to try it before buying. So would it convenient to press for example ctrl+shift+arrow for selecting, but for other side it is possible to program another key, that is programmability. So can you suggest for office use (such as excel word) which keyboard is better between those two. Do you have experience of poker 2 in excel? Would it be comfortable after some adaptation? And about the difference. Is race 2 newer model? Does it have more
ability of programming. Help me please to decide.

[spiceBar]

I like Poker II too (i mean it's external view), and even much more then Race II. But a lot of people in the forums say that does not fit for office use, i mean analytics in Excel and Word,because of absence dedicated arrow keys. As for me it I think that WASD arrows keys is even more comfortable, of course after some adaptation, but I could mistake. In this case you do not need to move your hand far away from home position on the keyboard... I have no
choice to try it before buying. So would it convenient to press for example ctrl+shift+arrow for selecting, but for other side it is possible to program another key, that is programmability. So can you suggest for office use (such as excel word) which keyboard is better between those two. Do you have experience of poker 2 in excel? Would it be comfortable after some adaptation? And about the difference. Is race 2 newer model? Does it have more
ability of programming. Help me please to decide.

The Poker II with GuiFN may be what you are looking for:
  http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57723.0

[nukec]

To be honest i got used to poker WASD arrow moving very very fast... No problem at all. The only problem I would say if you are using it in the office would be because of the blue mx keys... but still... go with brown then. I already had 1 guy complaining.

[Matias]

Interest Check is up...  :-)

      http://geekhack.org/?topic=60268.msg1388994#msg1388994

[Lurch]

Desk real estate.

[cuervo]

To be honest i got used to poker WASD arrow moving very very fast... No problem at all. The only problem I would say if you are using it in the office would be because of the blue mx keys... but still... go with brown then. I already had 1 guy complaining.

Thank you very much... I think now I'm ready to buy Poker 2 with mx brown. It would be a real experiment - My first mechanikal keyboard and it would be in 60% layout. Hope the experience will be positive.

[mashby]

Thank you very much... I think now I'm ready to buy Poker 2 with mx brown. It would be a real experiment - My first mechanikal keyboard and it would be in 60% layout. Hope the experience will be positive.

I think you'll like it, but in the event you don't you should be able to sell it pretty easily. Poker's are very popular.