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geekhack Community => Keyboard Keycaps => Topic started by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 15 May 2014, 19:43:11

Title: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 15 May 2014, 19:43:11
Let's please try and be mature.

But what is the general consensus on making caps by just copying someone else's design?

We have quite a few artisans around, is it really necessary to be original anymore?

EDIT: Just to be clear yes this conversation was inspired by pacifist and the idea of 'giving people what they want' which I understood meant copying existing designs.

 This goes beyond pacifist and this thread is not intended for any sort of personal attack but to discuss the general idea that seems to be going around that up and coming cap makers should just make caps that look like existing caps because people will throw money at them.

Yes some people have used lego heads, toy heads etc which can also be seen as a copy cap so that fits in this discussion to.

Ask yourself this, do you think about or do you even care who you throw you money at for a custom keycap?
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Sifo on Thu, 15 May 2014, 19:43:58
just give what people want
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Vibex on Thu, 15 May 2014, 19:47:28
I feel they are alright as long as they are not being marketed as the originals.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: pichu23 on Thu, 15 May 2014, 19:49:29
supply & demand. teehee ?
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: tjcaustin on Thu, 15 May 2014, 20:10:43
Let's please try and be mature.

But what is the general consensus on making caps by just copying someone else's design?

We have quite a few artisans around, is it really necessary to be original anymore?

But we're all too immature to get copied keycaps from a great artist.  One of them just said so!

I, for one, think we should strive to be better so that we can be blessed with the offerings of the front-of-the-lunch-line wanting, gets-punished-for-doing-things-other-people-do-too pariah that is PacCaps.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: esoomenona on Thu, 15 May 2014, 20:14:50
You mean stealing other people's ideas, like basically making custom color Julysicles/Candy Corns? I know it's kind of a tough situation for those, and definitely arguable that it's such a basic design that it isn't really copying, but he has been making those for such a long time. I think even all the other cap artisans agree with that to some degree, which is why no other one has made something like those.

But I guess if that's what the people want....
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Distilled on Thu, 15 May 2014, 20:20:21
Anything with a high demand will eventually be copied. So I guess 'copycaps' are inevitable no matter what we say. However, just because I want something that is hard to get doesn't mean some one who has worked hard to create it should get screwed for more supply. Even less fair that some one else profits from all the hard work and resources the creators put in.

Also means that the artisan key makers are less likely to continue putting in the effort as its really hard to stay motivated when people are free loading off you. On the flip side it could lead to innovation and penta-coloured CC  :eek:.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Xowie on Thu, 15 May 2014, 20:23:24
I think it is a terrible idea. Moral arguments aside, copys/fakes have the potential to bring down the perceived quality of artist's work if the copy is not up to par. Also it is easy to imagine that copys would cause scams to be rampant.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: lightsout714 on Thu, 15 May 2014, 20:28:38
Its not really the same for me. Sure it looks similar but if you know its a fake it kind of defeats the purpose. I don't agree at all with people making the same things others have. Kind of tacky, get your own idea.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: jwaz on Thu, 15 May 2014, 20:33:41
Really? Copycaps? Because the people that made the caps being copied owned the designs they were producing?

Hasbro owns the rights to Transformers and Disney owns the rights to Star Wars.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: anoxy on Thu, 15 May 2014, 20:33:59
I posted this in Pac's thread before he closed it, so I'll x-post here for the sake of adding to the discussion.

I mean, if somebody can create respectable replicas of existing designs. the original design doesn't seem as illustrious as the overly inflated prices suggest.

People make and buy replicas all the time. If it means you can get a quality, cool looking product at a cheaper price, that's cool with me, the consumer.

Why can't it be a tribute to the original artist's design? Like a band that cover's another band's album.

He's still forging the caps himself and partaking in artistic creation. If you have a problem with that, don't buy them and continue buying the original for their steep prices. You still have plenty of people who will do the same and prefer the original designs, so price inflation shouldn't go anywhere. There will just be two markets of consumers; one that enjoys the exclusive feeling of acquiring rare art, and one that doesn't care about that and just want a cool looking cap for their keyboard.


Stop pestering the man and go make some new designs yourself.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 15 May 2014, 20:36:59
Really? Copycaps? Because the people that made the caps being copied owned the designs they were producing?

Hasbro owns the rights to Transformers and Disney owns the rights to Star Wars.

So you are saying even some caps we consider originals are also copycaps.

#mindblown
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: esoomenona on Thu, 15 May 2014, 20:40:04
How about HE make some new designs himself? I don't know that your argument holds any water here. These are not companies or people who are making tons of profit off of these caps. The steep prices are solely aftermarket. These people sell these caps they create for reasonable prices. So ****ing with their designs is disrespectful.

On J's topic, that's why I never mentioned anything about that cap in particular. Even CC has made a Vader cap. And then girlDC made another after that, though a different design. I really don't know what to say in that regard. But even if those designs are stolen, there's a difference between making a design of your own and directly copying something done by another.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: anoxy on Thu, 15 May 2014, 20:44:25
How about HE make some new designs himself? I don't know that your argument holds any water here. These are not companies or people who are making tons of profit off of these caps. The steep prices are solely aftermarket. These people sell these caps they create for reasonable prices. So ****ing with their designs is disrespectful.
In Pac's thread there were people complaining that this would undermine the aftermarket viability of the 'original' artisan caps. Like somehow having replicas, or similar designs would cause the inflated aftermarket demand to drop. That's what I was responding to.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: riotonthebay on Thu, 15 May 2014, 20:45:40
How about HE make some new designs himself? I don't know that your argument holds any water here. These are not companies or people who are making tons of profit off of these caps. The steep prices are solely aftermarket. These people sell these caps they create for reasonable prices. So ****ing with their designs is disrespectful.

On J's topic, that's why I never mentioned anything about that cap in particular. Even CC has made a Vader cap. And then girlDC made another after that, though a different design. I really don't know what to say in that regard. But even if those designs are stolen, there's a difference between making a design of your own and directly copying something done by another.

There's a pretty big difference between e.g. the fake clacks that appeared and pacifist's trooper. He didn't even put the trooper up for sale – for all we know he was just experimenting and wanted something to compare it to. I'm not pacifist's biggest fan, but this feels a bit like "guilty before proven innocent."
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: bueller on Thu, 15 May 2014, 20:48:23
I think it sucks. I don't give a **** who owns the original copyright because they're not making caps. What pisses me off is that he's potentially taking money from GH members by using their tried and tested designs instead of coming up with something original.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: esoomenona on Thu, 15 May 2014, 20:51:15
He did specifically say that until we're more mature, he won't sell them, so there's that. But you could be right. But then again, he never offered argument in response to this, and now that your idea is out in the open, will he take it as his own, or if he says it, was it really how he felt beforehand?

To anoxy: if what you're saying is true about people making an argument about damaging the aftermarket value, then that is ****ing ludicrous to hear. The battle between people wanting to maximize profit from these caps and people trying their hardest to acquire them for next to nothing always wages, and I think it makes this community look fairly pathetic at times.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: anoxy on Thu, 15 May 2014, 20:53:23
I think it sucks. I don't give a **** who owns the original copyright because they're not making caps. What pisses me off is that he's potentially taking money from GH members by using their tried and tested designs instead of coming up with something original.

Isn't that the nature of competition? Isn't that how innovation happens and new designs are made?
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: metalliqaz on Thu, 15 May 2014, 20:56:12
Y'all people are crazy.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Thu, 15 May 2014, 20:56:38
I think it sucks. I don't give a **** who owns the original copyright because they're not making caps. What pisses me off is that he's potentially taking money from GH members by using their tried and tested designs instead of coming up with something original.

Isn't that the nature of competition? Isn't that how innovation happens and new designs are made?

Not when they're copied... That's the whole point of this thread.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: esoomenona on Thu, 15 May 2014, 20:59:05
Are counterfeiters innovating and creating new designs when they copy a Louis Vuitton purse and sell it for cheap? Or are they just profiting off of someone elses' design? Or do you mean that it makes the original designer have to create a new design because their original was stolen from them? Is that fair to them?
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: anoxy on Thu, 15 May 2014, 21:04:46
I think it sucks. I don't give a **** who owns the original copyright because they're not making caps. What pisses me off is that he's potentially taking money from GH members by using their tried and tested designs instead of coming up with something original.

Isn't that the nature of competition? Isn't that how innovation happens and new designs are made?

Not when they're copied... That's the whole point of this thread.

I see. I guess I just don't see how mixing two colors into a keycap or using a stormtrooper is so innovative that anything similar to it should be dubbed as a "copy"

Like honestly, how does this (Pac's design):
(http://i.imgur.com/9ARDePD.png)

Look anything like this?:
(http://i.imgur.com/IDV3pzJ.png)


They are both based off of stormtroopers. That is the only similarity. How is that a copy?
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: nubbinator on Thu, 15 May 2014, 21:07:40
Since it's my cap that's being copied, I'll give my thoughts on it and try to present a reasonable statement on the issue.

I don't have any rights to the design I originally did with that cap.  Since I did not innovate it nor do I hold a copyright or exclusive copyright permission to use it, there is nothing I can do about it.  If he wants to copy the design he has every right to.  There are some differences, like my helmet being at an angle so you actually got to see the trooper's face when it sat on your keyboard instead of looking down on it.

That said, I am disappointed that a cap design I did was copied, especially since he drew on the guide I made and the guide Binge made for starting. He also PMed me asking for help and started threads to which myself and other cap makers contributed.  While some of the answers were wishy washy since casting is affected by your specific location and others were us stating that you need to do basic research and come back with more specific questions, he did receive help from myself and others.  To do a design that I did is kind of a slap in the face then.  I sold a small handful of them after that, but was never 100% happy with my design, planning to revisit it as I got better at what I do.

While some, like HipsterPunks, have made me glad I did guides and helped them with some issues (I know Binge helped him a lot as well), others, like Pacifist, make me not want to do guides for the community anymore.  It feels like they bite me in the ass more than they help the community and help the community grow.

All that said, since I do not have the rights to anything Star Wars, I cannot call it a "copycap" or anything along those lines.  He can do whatever he wants, people can continue to call him out on it, and I can hope that he listens to those people and only releases his own novel designs.  I'll be disappointed if he does release it, but there's nothing I can do about and, honestly, nothing the community can do aside from not buy it unless Disney decides to take him to court since they're very protective of their IP.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: t2russo on Thu, 15 May 2014, 21:10:22
So it's ok to experiment if you have the right name.  What an embarrassment. 

Tell him not to do it privately, posting memes and riling up a crowd is just such a big man way of showing that highschool kid he overstepped his bounds.

I'm not even a fan of the kid but he had no chance from the start.  People wanted an excuse for blood and everyone jumped at the first chance.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Thu, 15 May 2014, 21:11:19
I think it sucks. I don't give a **** who owns the original copyright because they're not making caps. What pisses me off is that he's potentially taking money from GH members by using their tried and tested designs instead of coming up with something original.

Isn't that the nature of competition? Isn't that how innovation happens and new designs are made?

Not when they're copied... That's the whole point of this thread.

I see. I guess I just don't see how mixing two colors into a keycap or using a stormtrooper is so innovative that anything similar to it should be dubbed as a "copy"

Like honestly, how does this (Pac's design):
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/9ARDePD.png)


Look anything like this?:
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/IDV3pzJ.png)



They are both based off of stormtroopers. That is the only similarity. How is that a copy?

It's this one.  http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=33130.msg1164537#msg1164537

However, nubs has responded below, so it's a bit of a moot point, but I just wanted to make sure you had all the correct information.  :)
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: RabRhee on Thu, 15 May 2014, 21:24:53
This is a small community, anyone crafting something here is usually doing it on a small, personal scale, and it could be seen that at the community level, if someone has an idea to do something, you respect that idea and consider they have 'dibs' at least for a reasonable time, or if they have succeeded, you respect that as their particular thing.

Its not the same as running off a copy of some picasso, or nike trainers. or copying a trademark icon of some multinational. In this place, its like two friends at college, one fancies one girl, the other backs off. If he gets nowhere, the other may try, or may ask his friend if he can try. If the first guy dates the girl for a reasonable time, then you could argue that stops a friend forever unless they get real permission. And if their friend says no, don't go for it. Maybe some don't feel this way here, but I think it is how it should be. This is a group area for crafters just as if we were all sat in the same hall crafting away as we vendor.

But then there is the issue of 'how close' a copy. And thats a whole big nest of worms. I work with metal, and as far as that goes there is only so much variety in material. Just as there are only so many basic colours of plastic for a key without it being 'close' to another shade. I have seen at least 6 or 8 types of skull keys, in metal and plastic, but the designs were pretty different and showed at least some originality. For consensus on whether something is just a copy, sometimes it is obvious, sometimes its just count the number of pitchforks waving at the gate. Maybe the 'copycaps' shouters have a valid point, maybe they are too sensitive, in a small community, sometimes you have to adjust to people being a bit sensitive and maybe change your designs a bit more to avoid offence. This should be nothing major for a true artisan.

People like Clack, Brocaps, Binge, Nubbs, Cherpalla, many others, have managed to create something which is, I think, sufficiently unique to their own style that you can call it creative and original. Creating an original and selling often requires much effort. Hype, advertising, practising designs, discarding designs, learning what thickness works, what curves work. Sometimes hundreds of dollars creating moulds, templates, buying tools, whatever. If someone does that work, it is not in good spirit to set up shop next door selling their same designs. That is just letting someone elses labour pull your cart for you, or chasing a quick buck. Not quite like copying Cherry fonts, more like helping yourself to the fries of the guy sat at the next table.

It can be frustrating if you want a Tardis keycap and the guy who sort-of runs the crafting of them has only made 6 and they are $200 each, but theres many ways to create a tardis keycap without just copying the design directly. You want skeletor on a keycap, do a side view, do a 3d view, do the Tatooine survival gear edition, whatever. I think the many Iron-mans that have shown up are a little encroaching on each other, but at least some of them had new ways of doing a tin face on a key, and tried for some originality (although maybe not all of them)

It may also depend on who is copied, if they take offence then stop doing it, even if you think they may be a little sensitive. If they approve or voice no concerns, its still nice to ask beforehand if there are many similarities.

tl;dr - Artisans can change and create original designs, so if a design offends many, do a new one, artist.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: neunelfer on Thu, 15 May 2014, 21:36:41
I thought it was interesting to see these "Candy Corn" Stormtrooper caps. Quite a unique color scheme, yet no one seems to mind about that. I realize that it's not the same as an entire design, but there are definitely some similarities between these two cases - the reaction from the community is drastically different.

(http://i40.tinypic.com/azc6z8.jpg)
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: nubbinator on Thu, 15 May 2014, 21:38:30
For the record, I would never sell a theme like that.  The only reason I did the theme is because Dustin had won a Geekhack charity auction I was participating in and he requested that color theme to go with his Clacks.  When it comes to stuff I sell, I always do my own colors and color combos and try to avoid anyone's "trademark" color combos.

Those were also pre-pressure pot days when I was first learning how to properly double and triple shot.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Zeal on Thu, 15 May 2014, 21:41:16
Let's be honest here. Why do I feel like all (or some of) the hate here is because it's Pacifist that copied a design? I guess there are unwritten rules that the "older, unmature" people follow, and he may not realize it yet.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: esoomenona on Thu, 15 May 2014, 21:41:37
I thought it was interesting to see these "Candy Corn" Stormtrooper caps. Quite a unique color scheme, yet no one seems to mind about that. I realize that it's not the same as an entire design, but there are definitely some similarities between these two cases - the reaction from the community is drastically different.

Show Image
(http://i40.tinypic.com/azc6z8.jpg)



Yeah, I did notice that as well. I had never seen that before. I was just about to agree with anoxy that the design was different, when someone posted those, and they're candy corn.

That's when I was just like ****. This community is literally full of hypocrites who choose their battles. Someone should've called nubbinator on that ****, but like t2russo said, you have to be the right person, and apparently Pacifist isn't.

I wish I could keep track of every ****ing post in this site so I could call every single one on their ****...
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 15 May 2014, 21:43:50
So it's ok to experiment if you have the right name.  What an embarrassment. 

Tell him not to do it privately, posting memes and riling up a crowd is just such a big man way of showing that highschool kid he overstepped his bounds.

I'm not even a fan of the kid but he had no chance from the start.  People wanted an excuse for blood and everyone jumped at the first chance.

This goes beyond pacifist. It's a legitimate question.

It's obvious we have people here at geekhack who just want caps and don't care who, what or how they are made, that's part of the problem. And we have people who just want to make money off those people.

It is not just the literal copying but the attitude that goes with it.

Someone already tried cashing in with the fake clacks and I've seen plenty of people admit they'd buy them anyway knowing they were fake.

I think we should encourage people to be creative and different.

If someone wants to make a copy in the learning process they should say that is what they are doing and not try to profit from it.

I know many cap crafters spend a good bit of money to get started but when do we stop and rethink how much these caps are really worth?

And do we account for how creative someone is being when we throw money at them?
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: neunelfer on Thu, 15 May 2014, 21:45:08
Another thing that crossed my mind - just because nubbinator was the first to take some sort of proprietary action figure/lego and put it on a keycap, he now owns that design and any others using a slightly different proprietary action figure/lego are copying him?
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: esoomenona on Thu, 15 May 2014, 21:48:51
Also, if someone makes a copy of something in their learning process, it shouldn't go to someone else. Once it leaves that persons hands, there is no guarantee that its not going to get turned around and put out into the open, possibly even for profit, damaging your brand because you'll be viewed as copying even if that wasn't your intent.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: jwaz on Thu, 15 May 2014, 22:07:15
Another thing that crossed my mind - just because nubbinator was the first to take some sort of proprietary action figure/lego and put it on a keycap, he now owns that design and any others using a slightly different proprietary action figure/lego are copying him?

He wasn't even close to the first (CC, girlDC, Bro Caps, etc), this is essentially the point I made.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Distilled on Thu, 15 May 2014, 22:09:20
It really comes down to someone actually placing their own ideas into making something, rather than simply having someone else do the thinking for them and copying them. There is always going to be a big grey area on how much independent thought it takes for something to move from being a copy to something unique. Is a different angle enough? how about just a different colour?

Very few ideas will be 100% unique and no one can really own the idea behind a key cap, although they probably can claim ownership over the specific arrangement of the elements.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: noisyturtle on Thu, 15 May 2014, 23:19:00
I feel they are alright as long as they are not being marketed as the originals.

basically this
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: lightsout714 on Fri, 16 May 2014, 00:49:36
I felt the same way when I saw the candy corn troopers. Seems pretty hypocritical. Glad to see they weren't actually for sale though I guess that changes things a bit. That is definitely a CC thing though probably would have been better to pick a different color combo.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: rowdy on Fri, 16 May 2014, 00:52:16
I feel they are alright as long as they are not being marketed as the originals.

basically this

This too, preferably without them being marketed at all if they are direct copies.

if you want to copy something for your own amusement, that wouldn't hurt anyone (except maybe the original artist, but then if you are prepared to put in the effort to copy their work you are unlikely to have bought one of their originals anyway).

When they are being sold as the genuine article, and at inflated prices, is when things go seriously arse over tits.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Melvang on Fri, 16 May 2014, 01:07:09
The way I see it, if the fakes are not being sold for inflated prices then it can almost be seen as a form of flattery.  Granted, I wouldn't do this.  I might take an idea for some hardware and modify it for my personal needs, but I would still give credit where it is due with the original work.  Though with artistic stuff such as artisan caps it should almost be expected in todays day and age.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Binge on Fri, 16 May 2014, 01:39:01
Since I basically laid down some fire in that thread I feel as if I should say something.  There is a HUGE difference between copying and creating a replica based off of original art.

When it comes to casting there is a part of the art which is used to make duplicates.  This is the same with printmaking, and this is why artists number their prints in a series.  This is to validate the run it was made and differentiate the "copies" from the original.

That being said artists, whom I respect, make their own original to be copied.  I find keycap making to be a great way of making something like a print, and I found it morally awkward to make blanks. 

Where is the artwork in that?  How can I feel right setting a value to that?  It was hard.  I worked really hard on making colors and trying to be creative with a blank key, and who would know it but I couldn't.  Maybe someone would justify some sort of modern-art approach and say certain color combinations in series was artistic.  Whatever-- I just couldn't and this is the fussy business of right and wrong.  I am imposing my beliefs.

Say Pac makes some blanks.. great!  Power to him.  Is it for fun? No.  Money is involved.  Should he be paid for his time? Maybe.  Should he be paid for how many materials he's wasted making a functional key? I can't say.  Are his blanks worth over $5?  God I dunno but I'm sure he wants them to be more than that.  We'd all love our labours to be valued.

The blanks I've got nothing but to wish he would make them as high of quality as possible. I'd love to see some creative designs/ideas come out of the money people were throwing/promising to throw at him.  That's all good.

When I heard him say he was going to make storm troopers and a vader I kinda got sick, again.  Yes I haven't been entirely impressed with anyone's starwars figures except for GirlDC.  Why is that?

No toys were used to make GirlDC's key.  That is a sculpture.  That's just how GirlDC makes keys.

On that note I made a Snorlax the other day, but I sculpted the damn thing.

(http://i.imgur.com/VHagOAh.jpg)

^ That is a replica.  It is me making a figure like something that exists with my own process and skills.

Pouring silicone into a box and making a mold to copy something is not an artist's replica, it is a copy.

On that note it is not right to sell a replica or copy as the original, but IMO it's just as bad to sell copies of any object with artistic value without first making an artistic rendering/replica.

I don't believe hacking a head off of a toy is an artistic rendering.  I do believe anyone who wants to make a sculpture/drawing of their favorite character is welcome to do so, but use your own skills to do it or pay someone talented to do it for you.

The moment any "artisan" practicing mold making/casting creates a sizable amount of their portfolio out of exact copies of parts of licensed toys is the moment I judge them.  It's not immature.  That's just the value of it.  Treating somebody's figure as if it had no creator by copying it to the nearest .001mm is the moment selling it for profit becomes an infuriating action.

Please do not misunderstand.  I've done my fair share of artistic rendering of cartoon characters, living people, still objects, and the like.  I've even taken the advice of a professor and traced a line I couldn't quite get right by eye.  It doesn't change the fact that it's right for people's art to have worth, and it's right to respect that worth in that it does not belong to everyone.  That unique relationship a creator has with a creation gives the creator meaning and it gives the creation value.

On the subject of storm troopys...

http://originalstormtrooper.com/our-story-19-w.asp

Check out that site.  There's a great little bit at the bottom and more elsewhere which repeats in different words what has been said above.  The essence is there.  An original artistic rendering is really what is valued and any compensation available should be given to the owner of that original artistic rendering.  Any copies are just an extension of that original rendering which is why Mr. Lucas was never able to completely claim the stormtrooper as his own without first providing compensation to the artist.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: asdfjkl36 on Fri, 16 May 2014, 02:47:20
Very well said, Binge. Very well said.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: dustinhxc on Fri, 16 May 2014, 05:50:24
I thought it was interesting to see these "Candy Corn" Stormtrooper caps. Quite a unique color scheme, yet no one seems to mind about that. I realize that it's not the same as an entire design, but there are definitely some similarities between these two cases - the reaction from the community is drastically different.

Show Image
(http://i40.tinypic.com/azc6z8.jpg)


This is my all time favorite color combo. It was my dream idea and Nubs was KIND enough to create my dreams into reality, I thank him forever for that. :)
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Krogenar on Fri, 16 May 2014, 09:11:52
For me, making an exact duplicate of someone else's work is not really artistic at all. As for the Orangesicle color scheme being exclusive to CC, I don't think so. If someone were to use that color scheme and a skull design, or an exact replica of a clack skull, then, yeah -- that's not only non-artistic, it's infringement. Colors can be copyrighted -- such as Coca-Cola red. If you tried using that color on a baseball hat,  you'd probably be fine -- but use it in any way with a carbonated beverage and you're probably going to sued by Coca-Cola's battalion of lawyers. If said person made their own skull, and changed the colors of cream and orange a little, is it still infringement? Yeah, to some degree. But does CC have a brand to be harmed? Is he going to lose sales of his original work? Doubtful.

I used to work for a company that did trademark research. They would give me a proposed name for a new product and I would search existing known databases to find out if there were any other existing products that could be construed as (the legal definition) "confusingly similar" -- would a purchaser unwittingly buy the other product by accident?

So, if given a search for a new product called 'Pipsi' that would be a carbonated drink, I could tell the client there was a 'Pepsi' of the same product type that would likely sue their asses off. The idea is that a drink called 'Pipsi' would be siphoning off the marketing juice of 'Pepsi' and that would be causing them financial harm.

But, since all our artists are selfless altruists, this is not about the money -- it's about their art.

Ok, that's fine -- but it does make me laugh that we're wringing our hands over the copying of a copy of a copyrighted intellectual property! For me, it depends on the specificity of the artistic work. For example: Binge made a bear cap. Does that mean someone else could never make a bear-themed cap? I don't think so. If it's a duplicate of his work, that's wrong. If it's a different interpretation of a bear head (perhaps a Yogi the Bear head?) then I think that would be acceptable. Similarly, CC doesn't own the skull theme, but does own his specific interpretation of it.

But I gotta say, it feels a little hypocritical to claim that they're not in it for the money, but then when someone takes their "theme" and could potentially make some money, there's hell to pay. If someone takes another artist's design nearly en toto, then it's infringement, and morally wrong and those people should die alone, 40 pounds overweight, secure in the knowledge that no one ever loved them. But artists don't (and shouldn't) own entire theme material.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: baldgye on Fri, 16 May 2014, 10:01:17
I thought it was interesting to see these "Candy Corn" Stormtrooper caps. Quite a unique color scheme, yet no one seems to mind about that. I realize that it's not the same as an entire design, but there are definitely some similarities between these two cases - the reaction from the community is drastically different.

Show Image
(http://i40.tinypic.com/azc6z8.jpg)



Probably because they look like ****?
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Pinder on Fri, 16 May 2014, 10:22:51
if anyone makes good fake brobots pm me :P
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: t2russo on Fri, 16 May 2014, 10:29:16
More
For me, making an exact duplicate of someone else's work is not really artistic at all. As for the Orangesicle color scheme being exclusive to CC, I don't think so. If someone were to use that color scheme and a skull design, or an exact replica of a clack skull, then, yeah -- that's not only non-artistic, it's infringement. Colors can be copyrighted -- such as Coca-Cola red. If you tried using that color on a baseball hat,  you'd probably be fine -- but use it in any way with a carbonated beverage and you're probably going to sued by Coca-Cola's battalion of lawyers. If said person made their own skull, and changed the colors of cream and orange a little, is it still infringement? Yeah, to some degree. But does CC have a brand to be harmed? Is he going to lose sales of his original work? Doubtful.

I used to work for a company that did trademark research. They would give me a proposed name for a new product and I would search existing known databases to find out if there were any other existing products that could be construed as (the legal definition) "confusingly similar" -- would a purchaser unwittingly buy the other product by accident?

So, if given a search for a new product called 'Pipsi' that would be a carbonated drink, I could tell the client there was a 'Pepsi' of the same product type that would likely sue their asses off. The idea is that a drink called 'Pipsi' would be siphoning off the marketing juice of 'Pepsi' and that would be causing them financial harm.

But, since all our artists are selfless altruists, this is not about the money -- it's about their art.

Ok, that's fine -- but it does make me laugh that we're wringing our hands over the copying of a copy of a copyrighted intellectual property! For me, it depends on the specificity of the artistic work. For example: Binge made a bear cap. Does that mean someone else could never make a bear-themed cap? I don't think so. If it's a duplicate of his work, that's wrong. If it's a different interpretation of a bear head (perhaps a Yogi the Bear head?) then I think that would be acceptable. Similarly, CC doesn't own the skull theme, but does own his specific interpretation of it.

But I gotta say, it feels a little hypocritical to claim that they're not in it for the money, but then when someone takes their "theme" and could potentially make some money, there's hell to pay. If someone takes another artist's design nearly en toto, then it's infringement, and morally wrong and those people should die alone, 40 pounds overweight, secure in the knowledge that no one ever loved them. But artists don't (and shouldn't) own entire theme material.

Krog, thanks for this writeup.  You spent time laying out a detailed and clear argument, and made sure to cite real world examples and not just feelz.

Geekhack is a bit of a fantasy world sometimes and could often use a good drop back down to earth.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Binge on Fri, 16 May 2014, 11:03:30
But artists don't (and shouldn't) own entire theme material.

No argument here and kudos.  My entire beef is with the blatant copying of any artistic representation.  This includes toys as they were designed by a toy artist.  If someone makes a better depiction of something I've done which is just a theme, then more power to them.  If they want me to be the BEAR MASTER... heck I don't mind that either.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Fri, 16 May 2014, 11:23:06
But artists don't (and shouldn't) own entire theme material.

No argument here and kudos.  My entire beef is with the blatant copying of any artistic representation.  This includes toys as they were designed by a toy artist.  If someone makes a better depiction of something I've done which is just a theme, then more power to them.  If they want me to be the BEAR MASTER... heck I don't mind that either.

I believe you are the moose master for sure. ;)
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Binge on Fri, 16 May 2014, 11:26:21
But artists don't (and shouldn't) own entire theme material.

No argument here and kudos.  My entire beef is with the blatant copying of any artistic representation.  This includes toys as they were designed by a toy artist.  If someone makes a better depiction of something I've done which is just a theme, then more power to them.  If they want me to be the BEAR MASTER... heck I don't mind that either.

I believe you are the moose master for sure. ;)

That goes to moose here.  I provided him with a number of the original masters because it's his work that inspired me to make the cap.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Zombly on Fri, 16 May 2014, 11:31:22
Personally,

I like the ideas of taking someone's ideas and improving on them, however in a perfect world for example, if I wanted to make something similar to a Bro (only mentioning this because always on my mind) I would get consent first, show him my design prove that it's not just a stolen idea for a Brocap, and just to pawn it off, that would be complete copying.

I of course am unable to do this as I don't have an artistic vision, but just enjoy what is being made, I think an agreement should be made with people who have designs that are very similar, so that both parties agree.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: sth on Fri, 16 May 2014, 12:01:48
you guys... it's ****ing plastic

if you care so much then stop pointing fingers and hem-hawwing about mass-production copyright laws that were created by and are designed to favor giant companies.

stop spending so much money on it if you want to curb the stupidity that inevitably cascades upon us once aftermarkets are created

stop pointing fingers at people for doing whatever they ****ing want in their spare time

stop making **** quality caps with no originality or attention to detail and then selling them at profit

stop 'hyping' your doodads and having 'exclusive' sales

"There are no art forms now, just capitalism"
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: sth on Fri, 16 May 2014, 12:09:54
PS: inb4 "you can't control supply and demand/markets are markets/but econ 101" argument comes from the very same people who tell others the only way to remove power from corporations is to 'vote with your wallet'

Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Pacifist on Fri, 16 May 2014, 13:03:34
So its okay to steal copyrighted ideas and use them on keycaps as long as you are the first to do it? :confused:

So
Click clack (Vader)
Bro Caps (V1, Skeletor)
Nubbinator (Clone Trooper)
IMSTO (Hellboy, Attack on Titan)
girlDC (Vader, Trooper, Marine)
Piraterice (Hulk, Heisenberg)
Cherpalla (Mario Star)
RaVNzCRoFT (3D prints)
Just to name a few
Are all in the clear?

The whole reason why I started making these caps was because there was a dearth of caps in which you could pick the specific color you want and get it. The only thing close are hypnocaps. In addition, there is a dearth of affordable resin caps that you can just order whenever you want and not worry about ordering in the first millisecond or get hand picked. All the handmade resin caps, if not sold out in the first second, sell out by the end of the hour at the very worst. Even if you look at the metal caps and say those take a while to hit MOQ, those caps cost way more than resin and take way more time to produce. And even with feng's resin buy, there was a big selection but permutations of colors were already preset.
 
Onto the comparison between my trooper cap and nubbinator's: While they are quite similar, BOTH caps feature aspects of caps previously made (there are a lot of aspects of all caps that make them look very good and that many cap makers, after putting lots of time into caps, realize). And while nubbinator's cap did have some influence on my cap, I also gained a lot of influence looking at gas masks, bro bots, and binge caps, to name a few. And going into fine detail, my cap is not the exact same as nubbinator's. While they both are from star wars and feature a trooper head on top of a keycap, the similarities end there. First, I used a stormtrooper, while nubbinator used a different trooper. In addition, like nubbinator himself said, the angle of the trooper heads are different. While yes, nubbinator's cap influenced me, so did pretty much every single other cap ever made.

So what happens? I try to offer a service that is unique--the chance to buy a resin cap in the specific color you want--and I get shot down for doing something that apparently is bad, yet 1. People have been doing similar things before and 2. just showing a picture of a cap I made while experimenting with different colors and showing it to everybody? Just to let everybody know, I am working on my own original sculptured caps, and these star wars themed caps were mainly to 1. See how more complicated designs need to be molded and 2. Fund a pressure pot so I can make even better caps for everybody.

Sheesh, no wonder there are no services like mine. I try to give back to the community and get stabbed in the back for it.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: keymaster on Fri, 16 May 2014, 13:19:54
So its okay to steal copyrighted ideas and use them on keycaps as long as you are the first to do it? :confused:

So
Click clack (Vader)
Bro Caps (V1, Skeletor)
Nubbinator (Clone Trooper)
IMSTO (Hellboy, Attack on Titan)
girlDC (Vader, Trooper, Marine)
Piraterice (Hulk, Heisenberg)
Cherpalla (Mario Star)
RaVNzCRoFT (3D prints)
Just to name a few
Are all in the clear?

The whole reason why I started making these caps was because there was a dearth of caps in which you could pick the specific color you want and get it. The only thing close are hypnocaps. In addition, there is a dearth of affordable resin caps that you can just order whenever you want and not worry about ordering in the first millisecond or get hand picked. All the handmade resin caps, if not sold out in the first second, sell out by the end of the hour at the very worst. Even if you look at the metal caps and say those take a while to hit MOQ, those caps cost way more than resin and take way more time to produce. And even with feng's resin buy, there was a big selection but permutations of colors were already preset.
 
Onto the comparison between my trooper cap and nubbinator's: While they are quite similar, BOTH caps feature aspects of caps previously made (there are a lot of aspects of all caps that make them look very good and that many cap makers, after putting lots of time into caps, realize). And while nubbinator's cap did have some influence on my cap, I also gained a lot of influence looking at gas masks, bro bots, and binge caps, to name a few. And going into fine detail, my cap is not the exact same as nubbinator's. While they both are from star wars and feature a trooper head on top of a keycap, the similarities end there. First, I used a stormtrooper, while nubbinator used a different trooper. In addition, like nubbinator himself said, the angle of the trooper heads are different. While yes, nubbinator's cap influenced me, so did pretty much every single other cap ever made.

So what happens? I try to offer a service that is unique--the chance to buy a resin cap in the specific color you want--and I get shot down for doing something that apparently is bad, yet 1. People have been doing similar things before and 2. just showing a picture of a cap I made while experimenting with different colors and showing it to everybody? Just to let everybody know, I am working on my own original sculptured caps, and these star wars themed caps were mainly to 1. See how more complicated designs need to be molded and 2. Fund a pressure pot so I can make even better caps for everybody.

Sheesh, no wonder there are no services like mine. I try to give back to the community and get stabbed in the back for it.

It seems like it's more of a personal issue people have with you rather than anything else.

Like you pointed out, most of the keycap vendors have copied copyrighted designs (some continue to do so). The only difference I see here is that you're copying or taking inspiration from the works of other vendors, who themselves copied original designs. It's hypocritical, in my opinion, for them to be this upset.

Personally, I don't think it's such a big deal that you're doing this since you're mostly replicating copyrighted designs that don't belong to keycap vendors. However, people who design original material like Binge would be hurt by knowing their OWN original designs are being replicated.  To me, it's different when copyright infringement is done to an individual rather than a big corporation. I think we can agree that these are drastically different degrees of infringement. The former is more personal and immediate while the latter is distant and unharmed.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Quardah on Fri, 16 May 2014, 13:48:06
you guys... it's ****ing plastic

if you care so much then stop pointing fingers and hem-hawwing about mass-production copyright laws that were created by and are designed to favor giant companies.

stop spending so much money on it if you want to curb the stupidity that inevitably cascades upon us once aftermarkets are created

stop pointing fingers at people for doing whatever they ****ing want in their spare time

stop making **** quality caps with no originality or attention to detail and then selling them at profit

stop 'hyping' your doodads and having 'exclusive' sales

"There are no art forms now, just capitalism"

Wisdom.

Get a nice keycap set for your board if you want to revitalise it. Give it a look, add some novelties if you want. Make them if you want.

But really, who really cares?

If there's a demand for a specific item and its crafter doesn't meet up the demand, is it wrong for a next crafter to respond to that demand by doing the same thing?

Aka you gotta choose between the corporate point of view and the enthousiasts point of view.
Copyrights infringments versus people not getting what they want for some lack of will.

I'd rather see enthousiasts get what they want. Don't forget that before being a business, it's a hobby.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Binge on Fri, 16 May 2014, 13:50:45
So its okay to steal copyrighted ideas and use them on keycaps as long as you are the first to do it? :confused:

So
Click clack (Vader)
Bro Caps (V1, Skeletor)
Nubbinator (Clone Trooper)
IMSTO (Hellboy, Attack on Titan)
girlDC (Vader, Trooper, Marine)
Piraterice (Hulk, Heisenberg)
Cherpalla (Mario Star)
RaVNzCRoFT (3D prints)
Just to name a few
Are all in the clear?

In my book not all of the above are in the right.  All of those cases are also not the same.  With regard to Brocaps Skeletor he made an artistic rendering, and GirlDC hand sculpts all of those figures.  Not everyone in your list is making direct copies of an existing figure.  And if you see a type of hypocrisy are you going to say it's ok or will you rise above it and become unquestionable in your own right?

and these star wars themed caps were mainly to 1. See how more complicated designs need to be molded and 2. Fund a pressure pot so I can make even better caps for everybody.

Sheesh, no wonder there are no services like mine. I try to give back to the community and get stabbed in the back for it.

This is a legit series of questions and not a personal stab at you sir Pac.  I simply want to understand.

 1.  How are you giving back to the community and why are you using those terms instead of say "supplying material demand for personal profit?" 

2.  Why do you believe it is right to copy trademarked goods to be able to afford a pressure system for making better caps? 

3.  Why do you believe it is right to produce inferior keys (you admit you do not have the tools like a pressure system) with enough profit margin to afford expensive manufacturing tools? 

4.  Reflecting on the previous questions and your answers do you believe you are giving back to the community or using the community to afford tools, and if you do believe you are giving back to the community what is the value that geekwhackers, as you call them in other message boards, should expect from you for what you are charging?
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: baldgye on Fri, 16 May 2014, 14:00:32
Am I the only guy who when they 1st saw the Vader CC thought it was a modded Lego head?
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Pacifist on Fri, 16 May 2014, 14:24:50
Holy ****ing ****, **** everybody here trying to make a morality argument that is obviously extremely biased against me for some ****ing reason and hypocritical.

I'm not going to waste my time trying to defend myself from an obviously biased community.

I haven't even sold one of my caps yet for money, and nobody else has even touched them.

I will continue to do my work and sell them, regardless of what everybody thinks. If you don't like what I'm doing, then please **** off and mind your own business. There's always the option to ignore somebody.

To the people who actually want my caps: I will continue to make these for only the people who appreciate the countless hours I have put into cap making and developing my learning of casting.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Quardah on Fri, 16 May 2014, 14:35:56
lolwut

Didn't realise this thread was a circlejerk against you homie.

But i support you, do whatever the **** you want lol.

**** the system.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Binge on Fri, 16 May 2014, 14:52:52
Holy ****ing ****, **** everybody here trying to make a morality argument that is obviously extremely biased against me for some ****ing reason and hypocritical.

I'm not going to waste my time trying to defend myself from an obviously biased community.

I haven't even sold one of my caps yet for money, and nobody else has even touched them.

I will continue to do my work and sell them, regardless of what everybody thinks. If you don't like what I'm doing, then please **** off and mind your own business. There's always the option to ignore somebody.

To the people who actually want my caps: I will continue to make these for only the people who appreciate the countless hours I have put into cap making and developing my learning of casting.

Seeing as that explosion happened right after I asked some questions you could have easily answered to satisfied me (a collector of keycaps) I will assume you think I'm a hypocrite and that you've blocked me.  Good day sir.  I will be in my hut if you want to talk about it.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Pacifist on Fri, 16 May 2014, 14:54:00
and these star wars themed caps were mainly to 1. See how more complicated designs need to be molded and 2. Fund a pressure pot so I can make even better caps for everybody.

Sheesh, no wonder there are no services like mine. I try to give back to the community and get stabbed in the back for it.

This is a legit series of questions and not a personal stab at you sir Pac.  I simply want to understand.

 1.  How are you giving back to the community and why are you using those terms instead of say "supplying material demand for personal profit?" 

2.  Why do you believe it is right to copy trademarked goods to be able to afford a pressure system for making better caps? 

3.  Why do you believe it is right to produce inferior keys (you admit you do not have the tools like a pressure system) with enough profit margin to afford expensive manufacturing tools? 

4.  Reflecting on the previous questions and your answers do you believe you are giving back to the community or using the community to afford tools, and if you do believe you are giving back to the community what is the value that geekwhackers, as you call them in other message boards, should expect from you for what you are charging?

Only because you want to understand

1. First, supplying caps is in itself giving back to the community. Keycaps have become an integral part of keyboard enthusiasts, and I'm sure you're fully aware of that as a fellow keycap maker. At this point I haven't even made a single penny off of the many hours I've spent since late November of last year. Making keycaps is a hobby for me. What money I have has gone towards buying more materials and tools to supply the community with caps. At this point, I've spent around $100 in pure cash on cap making, and still am lacking some integral components, some of which I have made up for with some clever methods that I have not seen before.

2. My reasoning behind making these trooper caps was just a quick way of funding a $300 pressure pot, plus $100 in heating mats and $75 in new molds and resins that I plan to purchase later. Of course I can't make all that off of selling caps, imitations or not, and I will use my own money to fund those. I thought, its a WIN WIN situation. I get my funding, and people get caps that they like. Having spent quite a lot of time looking at caps, I saw that hey TAKING COPYRIGHTED DESIGNS IS NOT ONLY PERCEIVED AS OKAY BUT ALSO QUITE SUPPORTED BY THE COMMUNITY (which after this whole fiasco I guess isn't okay :confused: ). Vader caps are one of the most hyped up click clacks, and when the auction for nubbinator's trooper cap to raise money for GH happened, it got $185, for caps that, as nubbinator himself has said, were early makes and were of low quality. And let me ask you, why do you copy ideas too? Your snorlax may be all handmade, but it is obviously a copy of a character trademarked by whoever owns pokemon. Your keythuli and slowfi, while not trademarked, are based on pretty popular things on the internet and are not your own original ideas.

3. Everybody's got to start somewhere. I have made tons of caps that have bubbles in them. Those have never been photographed and will never be. They will never be sold unless I decide to sell only the structurally stable ones in a grab bag. Let me tell you a little about my capmaking experience. I started off with Bubbles everywhere. Slowly I figured out how to cast, and if you look at some of my caps, there is literally one visible bubble, on the inside bottom of the cap. The caps I will sell will only have bubbles in places not noticeable. I have developed a way (through doubleshots) to get rid of bubbles without the aid of fancy equipment. While yes, they are inferior to caps made with expensive equipment, they are still pretty good. I haven't even come out with official pricing of my caps, but trust me, I won't be looking for big profit margins. My plan is to make a ton of caps. This way I make say $1 times 50 instead of $5 times 20 and instead of 20 people getting the 20 caps, 50 people get caps, which only spreads the love, which is my way of giving back to the community.

4. I believe I am giving back to the community and funding my tools at the same time. People get the caps they want and I get the tools to supply them with more caps. Like I said, I'm doing low profit margins with lots of caps, which IMO is the best way to not only fund my tools but also let everybody who wants a cap to get a cap. Its Win Win, and if you don't like my system, you are fully welcome to make your own caps your own way.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Pacifist on Fri, 16 May 2014, 14:55:46
Holy ****ing ****, **** everybody here trying to make a morality argument that is obviously extremely biased against me for some ****ing reason and hypocritical.

I'm not going to waste my time trying to defend myself from an obviously biased community.

I haven't even sold one of my caps yet for money, and nobody else has even touched them.

I will continue to do my work and sell them, regardless of what everybody thinks. If you don't like what I'm doing, then please **** off and mind your own business. There's always the option to ignore somebody.

To the people who actually want my caps: I will continue to make these for only the people who appreciate the countless hours I have put into cap making and developing my learning of casting.

Seeing as that explosion happened right after I asked some questions you could have easily answered to satisfied me (a collector of keycaps) I will assume you think I'm a hypocrite and that you've blocked me.  Good day sir.  I will be in my hut if you want to talk about it.

That explosion happened yesterday and I only posted it today. I did not even have a chance to read your reply in the thread until after I posted it, and I did not read this reply until now because I just spent 20 minutes typing up a reply to your questions to help you understand.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: baldgye on Fri, 16 May 2014, 14:58:44
First, supplying caps is in itself giving back to the community.

It is?
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Krogenar on Fri, 16 May 2014, 14:59:00
you guys... it's ****ing plastic

I make custom flags for a living, and I've had people say (when they hear my prices for my work): "It's just ****ing fabric!"
True, flags are made of fabric but so are wedding dresses and parachutes. There's labor, there's love in these little chunks of plastic for the artists and hobbyists. I agree with the spirit of what you're saying, sth -- I tire of the butthurtedness, too.

Quote from: sth
"There are no art forms now, just capitalism"

Quote from: Quardah
Wisdom.

 :-X

Pac makes pretty good case about all the artisans (with Binge being the exception) to making keycaps based on intellectual property that they do not own. I don't really buy the argument that at least some of these people (GirlDC as the most prominent example) possess greater skill and/or talent, and so that somehow makes their infringement of other people's property rights some how less? It clearly makes them more artistic, more skilled, no argument there, but it's still not legal.

Some of the people on that list aren't in it for their 'art' -- not that I care, I don't buy into the whole selfless artist stuff. They looked at the market and said, "Hey, anyone want a Hulk keycap?" (People screamed, "Yissss!") and then they made them. Artists (good artists as defined by the market) should produce art and be well-fed and housed for their work and not smell at all like patchouli. But that's not the same as an artist who uses his or her skill to engrave a printing plate so they can counterfeit $100 bills. Do I respect that person's skill? Yes. But is what they're doing right? No, not really. And the fact that they're doing it to a big corporation instead of an individual, to me, is irrelevant.

And hey, I'm totally guilty of buying these things! So, pin a Crimson 'H' on my lapel. I have a Space Invaders keycap! I'm a hypocrite and I'm ashamed. (looks at Space Invaders keycap and fights back tears) Ok, I'm a little bit ashamed -- enough to not pretend I'm right.

Sheesh, no wonder there are no services like mine. I try to give back to the community and get stabbed in the back for it.

Toughen up buddy, you're an artist. Just do me a favor and don't strike a messianic pose -- just make good stuff that people want and don't pretend to be an artist if you actually aren't. I (seriously) wouldn't think any less of you. And go ahead and make some money in the process, Pac, I'm all for it.

Also, I speak from some experience at being a failed artist -- well, not really an artist. Is flocking a keycap artistic? The closest I came was mixing two colors of flock to make a new color, so... I mixed two colors and now I'm an artist. LOL! And the keycaps that results started out really, REALLY lacking. It took time for them to improve. There was still no market for them, but I was having fun making them. For me, the thrill was in making something -- anything, really, that was new, even if only in a minor way. If they had sold, and been popular that would have been icing on the cake. My point is that people can be artistic (Krog pushes two fingerpaint colors together and revels in his raw talent) and they can want financial success -- because people express their love for art sometimes with money, and money ain't so bad. As it was, I nearly begged people to try out my stuff, LOL!

Anyway, since GH is to intellectual property rights what the Wild West was to gun safety, let's just all agree to be less butthurt and continue making stuff for all sorts of reasons.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Pacifist on Fri, 16 May 2014, 15:02:00
you guys... it's ****ing plastic

I make custom flags for a living, and I've had people say (when they hear my prices for my work): "It's just ****ing fabric!"
True, flags are made of fabric but so are wedding dresses and parachutes. There's labor, there's love in these little chunks of plastic for the artists and hobbyists. I agree with the spirit of what you're saying, sth -- I tire of the butthurtedness, too.

Quote from: sth
"There are no art forms now, just capitalism"

Quote from: Quardah
Wisdom.

 :-X

Pac makes pretty good case about all the artisans (with Binge being the exception) to making keycaps based on intellectual property that they do not own. I don't really buy the argument that at least some of these people (GirlDC as the most prominent example) possess greater skill and/or talent, and so that somehow makes their infringement of other people's property rights some how less? It clearly makes them more artistic, more skilled, no argument there, but it's still not legal.

Some of the people on that list aren't in it for their 'art' -- not that I care, I don't buy into the whole selfless artist stuff. They looked at the market and said, "Hey, anyone want a Hulk keycap?" (People screamed, "Yissss!") and then they made them. Artists (good artists as defined by the market) should produce art and be well-fed and housed for their work and not smell at all like patchouli. But that's not the same as an artist who uses his or her skill to engrave a printing plate so they can print $100 bills. Do I respect that person's skill? Yes. But is what they're doing right? No.

And hey, I'm totally guilty of buying these things! So, pin a Crimson 'H' on my lapel. I have a Space Invaders keycap! I'm a hypocrite and I'm ashamed. (looks at Space Invaders keycap and fights back tears)

Sheesh, no wonder there are no services like mine. I try to give back to the community and get stabbed in the back for it.

Toughen up buddy, you're an artist. Just do me a favor and don't strike a messianic pose -- just make good stuff that people want and don't pretend to be an artist if you actually aren't. I (seriously) wouldn't think any less of you. And go ahead and make some money in the process, Pac, I'm all for it.

Also, I speak from some experience at being a failed artist -- well, not really an artist. Is flocking a keycap artistic? The closest I came was mixing two colors of flock to make a new color, so... I mixed two colors and now I'm an artist. LOL! And the keycaps that results started out really, REALLY lacking. It took time for them to improve. There was still no market for them, but I was having fun making them. For me, the thrill was in making something -- anything, really, that was new, even if only in a minor way. If they had sold, and been popular that would have been icing on the cake. My point is that people can be artistic (Krog pushes two fingerpaint colors together and revels in his raw talent) and they can want financial success -- because people express their love for art sometimes with money, and money ain't so bad. As it was, I nearly begged people to try out my stuff, LOL!

Anyway, since GH is to intellectual property rights what the Wild West was to gun safety, let's just all agree to be less butthurt and continue making stuff for all sorts of reasons.

Thank you for your reply. I don't really consider myself an artist, but I have fallen in love with what resin casting can do, and I am going to take a sculpting class next year to learn more about art and have some more time to make caps.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: sth on Fri, 16 May 2014, 15:02:17
you guys... it's ****ing plastic

I make custom flags for a living, and I've had people say (when they hear my prices for my work): "It's just ****ing fabric!"
True, flags are made of fabric but so are wedding dresses and parachutes. There's labor, there's love in these little chunks of plastic for the artists and hobbyists. I agree with the spirit of what you're saying, sth -- I tire of the butthurtedness, too.

Quote from: sth
"There are no art forms now, just capitalism"

Quote from: Quardah
Wisdom.

 :-X

Pac makes pretty good case about all the artisans (with Binge being the exception) to making keycaps based on intellectual property that they do not own. I don't really buy the argument that at least some of these people (GirlDC as the most prominent example) possess greater skill and/or talent, and so that somehow makes their infringement of other people's property rights some how less? It clearly makes them more artistic, more skilled, no argument there, but it's still not legal.

Some of the people on that list aren't in it for their 'art' -- not that I care, I don't buy into the whole selfless artist stuff. They looked at the market and said, "Hey, anyone want a Hulk keycap?" (People screamed, "Yissss!") and then they made them. Artists (good artists as defined by the market) should produce art and be well-fed and housed for their work and not smell at all like patchouli. But that's not the same as an artist who uses his or her skill to engrave a printing plate so they can counterfeit $100 bills. Do I respect that person's skill? Yes. But is what they're doing right? No, not really. And the fact that they're doing it to a big corporation instead of an individual, to me, is irrelevant.

And hey, I'm totally guilty of buying these things! So, pin a Crimson 'H' on my lapel. I have a Space Invaders keycap! I'm a hypocrite and I'm ashamed. (looks at Space Invaders keycap and fights back tears) Ok, I'm a little bit ashamed -- enough to not pretend I'm right.

Sheesh, no wonder there are no services like mine. I try to give back to the community and get stabbed in the back for it.

Toughen up buddy, you're an artist. Just do me a favor and don't strike a messianic pose -- just make good stuff that people want and don't pretend to be an artist if you actually aren't. I (seriously) wouldn't think any less of you. And go ahead and make some money in the process, Pac, I'm all for it.

Also, I speak from some experience at being a failed artist -- well, not really an artist. Is flocking a keycap artistic? The closest I came was mixing two colors of flock to make a new color, so... I mixed two colors and now I'm an artist. LOL! And the keycaps that results started out really, REALLY lacking. It took time for them to improve. There was still no market for them, but I was having fun making them. For me, the thrill was in making something -- anything, really, that was new, even if only in a minor way. If they had sold, and been popular that would have been icing on the cake. My point is that people can be artistic (Krog pushes two fingerpaint colors together and revels in his raw talent) and they can want financial success -- because people express their love for art sometimes with money, and money ain't so bad. As it was, I nearly begged people to try out my stuff, LOL!

Anyway, since GH is to intellectual property rights what the Wild West was to gun safety, let's just all agree to be less butthurt and continue making stuff for all sorts of reasons.


ooohhh my god i dont care holy COW do i ever not care about whatever you have to say
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: sth on Fri, 16 May 2014, 15:06:18
LOL i actually read it what the hell is going on stop agreeing with me
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: absyrd on Fri, 16 May 2014, 15:20:24
Some of these caps look like my stools. They are copycrapping my bowel art.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Glissant on Fri, 16 May 2014, 15:40:47
Since I basically laid down some fire in that thread I feel as if I should say something.  There is a HUGE difference between copying and creating a replica based off of original art.

When it comes to casting there is a part of the art which is used to make duplicates.  This is the same with printmaking, and this is why artists number their prints in a series.  This is to validate the run it was made and differentiate the "copies" from the original.

That being said artists, whom I respect, make their own original to be copied.  I find keycap making to be a great way of making something like a print, and I found it morally awkward to make blanks. 

Where is the artwork in that?  How can I feel right setting a value to that?  It was hard.  I worked really hard on making colors and trying to be creative with a blank key, and who would know it but I couldn't.  Maybe someone would justify some sort of modern-art approach and say certain color combinations in series was artistic.  Whatever-- I just couldn't and this is the fussy business of right and wrong.  I am imposing my beliefs.

Say Pac makes some blanks.. great!  Power to him.  Is it for fun? No.  Money is involved.  Should he be paid for his time? Maybe.  Should he be paid for how many materials he's wasted making a functional key? I can't say.  Are his blanks worth over $5?  God I dunno but I'm sure he wants them to be more than that.  We'd all love our labours to be valued.

The blanks I've got nothing but to wish he would make them as high of quality as possible. I'd love to see some creative designs/ideas come out of the money people were throwing/promising to throw at him.  That's all good.

When I heard him say he was going to make storm troopers and a vader I kinda got sick, again.  Yes I haven't been entirely impressed with anyone's starwars figures except for GirlDC.  Why is that?

No toys were used to make GirlDC's key.  That is a sculpture.  That's just how GirlDC makes keys.

On that note I made a Snorlax the other day, but I sculpted the damn thing.

(http://i.imgur.com/VHagOAh.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/VHagOAh.jpg)

^ That is a replica.  It is me making a figure like something that exists with my own process and skills.

Pouring silicone into a box and making a mold to copy something is not an artist's replica, it is a copy.

On that note it is not right to sell a replica or copy as the original, but IMO it's just as bad to sell copies of any object with artistic value without first making an artistic rendering/replica.

I don't believe hacking a head off of a toy is an artistic rendering.  I do believe anyone who wants to make a sculpture/drawing of their favorite character is welcome to do so, but use your own skills to do it or pay someone talented to do it for you.

The moment any "artisan" practicing mold making/casting creates a sizable amount of their portfolio out of exact copies of parts of licensed toys is the moment I judge them.  It's not immature.  That's just the value of it.  Treating somebody's figure as if it had no creator by copying it to the nearest .001mm is the moment selling it for profit becomes an infuriating action.

Please do not misunderstand.  I've done my fair share of artistic rendering of cartoon characters, living people, still objects, and the like.  I've even taken the advice of a professor and traced a line I couldn't quite get right by eye.  It doesn't change the fact that it's right for people's art to have worth, and it's right to respect that worth in that it does not belong to everyone.  That unique relationship a creator has with a creation gives the creator meaning and it gives the creation value.

On the subject of storm troopys...

http://originalstormtrooper.com/our-story-19-w.asp (http://originalstormtrooper.com/our-story-19-w.asp)

Check out that site.  There's a great little bit at the bottom and more elsewhere which repeats in different words what has been said above.  The essence is there.  An original artistic rendering is really what is valued and any compensation available should be given to the owner of that original artistic rendering.  Any copies are just an extension of that original rendering which is why Mr. Lucas was never able to completely claim the stormtrooper as his own without first providing compensation to the artist.

(http://i.imgur.com/GdhRz1j.jpg)
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Binge on Fri, 16 May 2014, 15:51:11
and I found it morally awkward to make blanks. 

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/GdhRz1j.jpg)


You're right, by my definition and feelings they aren't art.  I tried because people asked me enough, but it wasn't worth the questionable nature.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Binge on Fri, 16 May 2014, 16:05:45
...

PM me or hit me up on skype/IRC if you want to talk about things.  I am satisfied with your responses and if you make interesting blanks I won't be the only one who wants to buy them.  Sorry for rustling you a little, but sometimes you can only get to know someone who has a less than stellar rep and calls their peers geekwhackers by asking some hard questions.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: esko997 on Fri, 16 May 2014, 16:56:36
Interesting thread...despite some people getting upset I have enjoyed reading what people have to say and some fair points and interesting questions were raised. Glad this thread was started and that people are able to talk about it.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: divito on Fri, 16 May 2014, 20:57:22
Interesting thread...despite some people getting upset I have enjoyed reading what people have to say and some fair points and interesting questions were raised. Glad this thread was started and that people are able to talk about it.

Agreed.

When I used to lurk here, the community interaction and approach was one of the primary reasons I decided to jump in. GH is respectable, close, friendly, reasonable, and all things most communities should want to be.

On topic to the actual act, I feel it breaks down a certain way. People who make products based on, or of a reproductive nature almost always usually attribute their source and inspiration. This is true in almost any industry. I can see how in this tight-knit community, there might be some apprehension in supporting another person utilizing a fond aspect of said community.

Where it veers for me is in this classification of "artist." That title is completely irrelevant to the aspect of providing a service or product that is in demand. If I make a cool looking key cap, the method shouldn't really be relevant. If someone makes a mold, if someone makes a 3D-printed file, or someone carves a key, does that mean no one can ever use those methods? What if I love the look of a cap, but want my own modifications for it? What if I publish my own trials on my modifications and other people want it? Am I not allowed to do it because it's a "copy" or similarly made?

There are some members here who are supremely talented, whether that be with soldering, making key caps, dying key caps, etc... If they feel like contributing to other like-minded individuals through monetary incentive, then so be it. If no market exists, they are more than welcome to make it out of desire and contribute without that incentive as well.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Fri, 16 May 2014, 21:02:04
I LOVE remixes!
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: riotonthebay on Fri, 16 May 2014, 21:09:59
Can I appeal my exclusion from pacifist's ban list?
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Pacifist on Fri, 16 May 2014, 21:11:23
Just want some clarification from the community.

1. Its okay for MKC to make these iron mans even though copyrighted by Marvel
(http://i.imgur.com/1ZuuOiv.png)
and
2. Its okay for Keypop to also make an iron man cap
(http://images.cdn.bigcartel.com/bigcartel/product_images/132724638/max_h-1000+max_w-1000/IronmanGold1.jpg)

 :confused:
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: hwood34 on Fri, 16 May 2014, 21:12:28
Just want some clarification from the community.

1. Its okay for MKC to make these iron mans even though copyrighted by Marvel
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/1ZuuOiv.png)

and
2. Its okay for Keypop to also make an iron man cap
Show Image
(http://images.cdn.bigcartel.com/bigcartel/product_images/132724638/max_h-1000+max_w-1000/IronmanGold1.jpg)


 :confused:
There he is!
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Melvang on Fri, 16 May 2014, 21:24:26
Just want some clarification from the community.

1. Its okay for MKC to make these iron mans even though copyrighted by Marvel
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/1ZuuOiv.png)

and
2. Its okay for Keypop to also make an iron man cap
Show Image
(http://images.cdn.bigcartel.com/bigcartel/product_images/132724638/max_h-1000+max_w-1000/IronmanGold1.jpg)


 :confused:

I believe it is since they are both artistic interpretations.  Though I could very well be wrong.  From an ethics stand point I am ok with artistic interpretations.  Kind of like the famous painting Starry Night being available as a cross stitch kit.  Though when that painting was done there wasn't copyrights.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Pacifist on Fri, 16 May 2014, 21:27:46
Just want some clarification from the community.

1. Its okay for MKC to make these iron mans even though copyrighted by Marvel
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/1ZuuOiv.png)

and
2. Its okay for Keypop to also make an iron man cap
Show Image
(http://images.cdn.bigcartel.com/bigcartel/product_images/132724638/max_h-1000+max_w-1000/IronmanGold1.jpg)


 :confused:

I believe it is since they are both artistic interpretations.  Though I could very well be wrong.  From an ethics stand point I am ok with artistic interpretations.  Kind of like the famous painting Starry Night being available as a cross stitch kit.  Though when that painting was done there wasn't copyrights.

So if I make a trooper that had say, stripes down its face, that would be okay?
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Fri, 16 May 2014, 21:29:59
I look at it like a remix. Take something someone else made, and put some other spin on it. In the 21st century, if we are being really honest 99% of everything that is made is a remix by now. Truly original works are pretty much impossible. Everything is done already. I don't see why people get so butthurt about some of this stuff around here.
Furthermore, the whole concepts of copyright and intellectual property are actually counterproductive to cultural growth. It puts art and science under lock and key for those that are 'special'.

From a 'moral' standpoint... as long as it is clear it is not the 'original' it is not ambiguous in that regard either as there is no attempt to deceive the buyer in any way.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: esko997 on Fri, 16 May 2014, 21:32:13
I look at it like a remix. Take something someone else made, and put some other spin on it. In the 21st century, if we are being really honest 99% of everything that is made is a remix by now. Truly original works are pretty much impossible. Everything is done already. I don't see why people get so butthurt about some of this stuff around here.
Furthermore, the whole concepts of copyright and intellectual property are actually counterproductive to cultural growth. It puts art and science under lock and key for those that are 'special'.

Didnt someone once say something along the lines of "Good artists copy other artists; great artists hide their sources." Or did I imagine that?
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Pacifist on Fri, 16 May 2014, 21:38:13
So this is okay?

(http://i.imgur.com/PwHwNQD.jpg)

Its a version of Clone trooper's helmet that I remixed that I haven't shown anybody yet because its stem needs work.
 Super small ridge on the top of its helmet instead of that big one.
(http://images.buystarwarscostumes.com/products/9122/1-1/clone-trooper-collectors-helmet.jpg)
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Binge on Fri, 16 May 2014, 21:50:06
Just want some clarification from the community.

1. Its okay for MKC to make these iron mans even though copyrighted by Marvel
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/1ZuuOiv.png)

and
2. Its okay for Keypop to also make an iron man cap
Show Image
(http://images.cdn.bigcartel.com/bigcartel/product_images/132724638/max_h-1000+max_w-1000/IronmanGold1.jpg)


 :confused:

I believe it is since they are both artistic interpretations.  Though I could very well be wrong.  From an ethics stand point I am ok with artistic interpretations.  Kind of like the famous painting Starry Night being available as a cross stitch kit.  Though when that painting was done there wasn't copyrights.

So if I make a trooper that had say, stripes down its face, that would be okay?

If YOU were to make a trooper it would be ok.  Using an existing model someone else made as your trooper is not ok.  Claiming it is a piece of starwars memorabilia is not ok.  Claiming it is an artistic rendering of a storm trooper from your own skills as an artist is ok.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Pacifist on Fri, 16 May 2014, 21:54:43
Using an existing model someone else made as your trooper is not ok. 

Then how come nubbinator didn't get any flack but instead praise when he made his trooper cap, which obviously is a lego head stuck to a keycap?

Also, if I were to make out of clay a trooper exactly the same as an existing model, is that okay under your
If YOU were to make a trooper it would be ok. 

statement? Cuz I would be making that myself, 100% handmade (except for the base cap, which everybody uses from existing caps)


This community seriously needs to stop being hypocritical
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Binge on Fri, 16 May 2014, 22:13:53
Using an existing model someone else made as your trooper is not ok. 

Then how come nubbinator didn't get any flack but instead praise when he made his trooper cap, which obviously is a lego head stuck to a keycap?

He did- but he also kept it pretty short because I'm sure he knew it would build up if he didn't just get rid of them.

Also, if I were to make out of clay a trooper exactly the same as an existing model, is that okay under your
If YOU were to make a trooper it would be ok. 

statement? Cuz I would be making that myself, 100% handmade (except for the base cap, which everybody uses from existing caps)

Exactly.  You make the sculpture it is YOUR artistic rendering.  Andrew Ainsworth couldn't even tell you to stop if you didn't call it an official Storm Trooper likeness.  You are in effect copying your own artistic rendering.  This is FINE.

Earlier it was brought up that counterfeiters are just really good at artistic renderings of money, and yes... but they also call it money.  That's the bigger issue.

This community seriously needs to stop being hypocritical

You have no room to speak about hypocrisy.  Just look back at yourself and you'll see much of the disfunction you claim others have.  The issue here is understanding that people are more aware of what is going on.  You have peers in capcrafting who have been doing this longer and mistakes were made, morals were questioned, and ultimately there are a lot of people in the community you say you want to please who think some of what you're proposing to do is questionable.  They are your potential customers, your potential fans, and instead of evaluating your options you've taken out your anger publicly and made statements that you will continue to do what you want no matter what they think.

 [attachimg=1]
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Pacifist on Fri, 16 May 2014, 22:20:19
Exactly.  You make the sculpture it is YOUR artistic rendering.  Andrew Ainsworth couldn't even tell you to stop if you didn't call it an official Storm Trooper likeness.  You are in effect copying your own artistic rendering.  This is FINE.

Cool, thank you for the justification to handmake remakes of every single popular cap. I won't even need to purchase one to make it, I can just sculpt it myself :p

I just call it keycap with face, and sell them for everybody ;D
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Binge on Fri, 16 May 2014, 22:29:04
Exactly.  You make the sculpture it is YOUR artistic rendering.  Andrew Ainsworth couldn't even tell you to stop if you didn't call it an official Storm Trooper likeness.  You are in effect copying your own artistic rendering.  This is FINE.

Cool, thank you for the justification to handmake remakes of every single popular cap. I won't even need to purchase one to make it, I can just sculpt it myself :p

I just call it keycap with face, and sell them for everybody ;D

If you don't use my cap names and you don't use my caps for your molds I don't care.  You won't touch the quality of my figures without some serious dedication and if your aim is to crush my efforts with your skill I say bring it on.. You're just showing the kind of person you are.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: anoxy on Sat, 17 May 2014, 00:02:44
On the real though, aren't you in highschool? You should go party, play highschool sports and apply to colleges.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Pacifist on Sat, 17 May 2014, 00:04:51
On the real though, aren't you in highschool? You should go party, play highschool sports and apply to colleges.

Or I can make parodies of keycaps. LOL cap here we come! (once I get a new bottle of silicon)

Party: **** I hate parties. Not the kind of person to go to parties
Sports: Naw, those are too time consuming IMO
Apply to colleges: What do you think capmaking is for? BINGO
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: lightsout714 on Sat, 17 May 2014, 00:31:35
On the real though, aren't you in highschool?
Ahhhh, makes so much more sense now. Not even being a smart *** it just is what it is. It shows.

Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Mr.Tumor on Sat, 17 May 2014, 00:55:09
I thought this was about hats with copy machines built in um... Boy was I off!!!  :p
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: pr0ximity on Sat, 17 May 2014, 01:44:42
I LOVE remixes!

Ditto, would love to see more of them.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: moptimus on Sat, 17 May 2014, 02:18:01
So everyone has their panties in a twist because someone who made keycaps used the same source material as inspiration/model as someone else?

Mountain over a mole-hill people.

If the issue is that one person has directly copied source material for personal gain, without paying royalties to an original user, than why is johny-come-lately the one copping the flak, surely that should be shared for everyone that has used trademarked items as source material.

You can bet your bottom dollar that if you started producing Mickey Mouse caps to sell, you would hear from Disney if you appeared on their radar, regardless whether it was a clay model base, a print on a cap, or just a mold from a figure.

Nature abhors a vacuum, but so does the market, if their is demand for custom keycaps, there will be supply - this can be seen in the rip-off clacks that surfaced, and it can be seen in everyone that makes caps to sell.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Sifo on Sat, 17 May 2014, 02:20:24
PS: inb4 "you can't control supply and demand/markets are markets/but econ 101" argument comes from the very same people who tell others the only way to remove power from corporations is to 'vote with your wallet'
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Binge on Sat, 17 May 2014, 02:22:53
So everyone has their panties in a twist because someone who made keycaps used the same source material as inspiration/model as someone else?

Mountain over a mole-hill people.

If the issue is that one person has directly copied source material for personal gain, without paying royalties to an original user, than why is johny-come-lately the one copping the flak, surely that should be shared for everyone that has used trademarked items as source material.

You can bet your bottom dollar that if you started producing Mickey Mouse caps to sell, you would hear from Disney if you appeared on their radar, regardless whether it was a clay model base, a print on a cap, or just a mold from a figure.

Nature abhors a vacuum, but so does the market, if their is demand for custom keycaps, there will be supply - this can be seen in the rip-off clacks that surfaced, and it can be seen in everyone that makes caps to sell.


nope this isn't what happened at all m8
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Sat, 17 May 2014, 02:34:58
you guys... it's ****ing plastic

I make custom flags for a living, and I've had people say (when they hear my prices for my work): "It's just ****ing fabric!"
True, flags are made of fabric but so are wedding dresses and parachutes. There's labor, there's love in these little chunks of plastic for the artists and hobbyists. I agree with the spirit of what you're saying, sth -- I tire of the butthurtedness, too.

Quote from: sth
"There are no art forms now, just capitalism"

Quote from: Quardah
Wisdom.

 :-X

Pac makes pretty good case about all the artisans (with Binge being the exception) to making keycaps based on intellectual property that they do not own. I don't really buy the argument that at least some of these people (GirlDC as the most prominent example) possess greater skill and/or talent, and so that somehow makes their infringement of other people's property rights some how less? It clearly makes them more artistic, more skilled, no argument there, but it's still not legal.

Some of the people on that list aren't in it for their 'art' -- not that I care, I don't buy into the whole selfless artist stuff. They looked at the market and said, "Hey, anyone want a Hulk keycap?" (People screamed, "Yissss!") and then they made them. Artists (good artists as defined by the market) should produce art and be well-fed and housed for their work and not smell at all like patchouli. But that's not the same as an artist who uses his or her skill to engrave a printing plate so they can counterfeit $100 bills. Do I respect that person's skill? Yes. But is what they're doing right? No, not really. And the fact that they're doing it to a big corporation instead of an individual, to me, is irrelevant.

And hey, I'm totally guilty of buying these things! So, pin a Crimson 'H' on my lapel. I have a Space Invaders keycap! I'm a hypocrite and I'm ashamed. (looks at Space Invaders keycap and fights back tears) Ok, I'm a little bit ashamed -- enough to not pretend I'm right.

Sheesh, no wonder there are no services like mine. I try to give back to the community and get stabbed in the back for it.

Toughen up buddy, you're an artist. Just do me a favor and don't strike a messianic pose -- just make good stuff that people want and don't pretend to be an artist if you actually aren't. I (seriously) wouldn't think any less of you. And go ahead and make some money in the process, Pac, I'm all for it.

Also, I speak from some experience at being a failed artist -- well, not really an artist. Is flocking a keycap artistic? The closest I came was mixing two colors of flock to make a new color, so... I mixed two colors and now I'm an artist. LOL! And the keycaps that results started out really, REALLY lacking. It took time for them to improve. There was still no market for them, but I was having fun making them. For me, the thrill was in making something -- anything, really, that was new, even if only in a minor way. If they had sold, and been popular that would have been icing on the cake. My point is that people can be artistic (Krog pushes two fingerpaint colors together and revels in his raw talent) and they can want financial success -- because people express their love for art sometimes with money, and money ain't so bad. As it was, I nearly begged people to try out my stuff, LOL!

Anyway, since GH is to intellectual property rights what the Wild West was to gun safety, let's just all agree to be less butthurt and continue making stuff for all sorts of reasons.

This is totally (sort of) off topic, but I have one of your flocked spacebars and it is awesome.  I've told you this before, but I'm telling you again because it's still true.   :-*
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: dustinhxc on Sat, 17 May 2014, 02:35:57
How the hell did I get on the banned list?  :confused:
Title: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: riotonthebay on Sat, 17 May 2014, 02:37:42
How the hell did I get on the banned list?  :confused:

Pacifist perceived that his perception of your perception of his caps was perceived to be negative.

Also, no one took my earlier appeal seriously :(.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Zeal on Sat, 17 May 2014, 02:41:28
How the hell did I get on the banned list?  :confused:

Pacifist perceived that his perception of your perception of his caps was perceived to be negative.

Also, no one took my earlier appeal seriously :(.

Perceive-ception?!

You could always voluntarily add yourself to his ban list, if you'd like.  :p
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Sat, 17 May 2014, 02:46:14
How the hell did I get on the banned list?  :confused:

How do you know you're banned?
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: dustinhxc on Sat, 17 May 2014, 02:47:41
How the hell did I get on the banned list?  :confused:

How do you know you're banned?

His artisan thread.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: nubbinator on Sat, 17 May 2014, 02:48:29
How the hell did I get on the banned list?  :confused:

Pacifist perceived that his perception of your perception of his caps was perceived to be negative.

Also, no one took my earlier appeal seriously :(.

So are you sad that you're not banned?

It's all water under the bridge as far as I'm concerned at this point.  I made my feelings known, others have had their say, and it is what it is.  I'll just be more selective in who I share things with in the future and what guides I make.

And I'm still making my 100% original designs and plan on unveiling a new one tomorrow with a freebie for whoever comes up with the best name for it.  My last caps were a bit more serious than usual and this new one returns to whimsy.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: riotonthebay on Sat, 17 May 2014, 02:50:28

How the hell did I get on the banned list?  :confused:

Pacifist perceived that his perception of your perception of his caps was perceived to be negative.

Also, no one took my earlier appeal seriously :(.

So are you sad that you're not banned?

I just wanna be a part of the exclusive club :(
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: nubbinator on Sat, 17 May 2014, 02:51:27

How the hell did I get on the banned list?  :confused:

Pacifist perceived that his perception of your perception of his caps was perceived to be negative.

Also, no one took my earlier appeal seriously :(.

So are you sad that you're not banned?

I just wanna be a part of the exclusive club :(

I can add you to my short list of hidden users if it will make you feel better.

Of course I like you too much to not expand what you say or add you as a friend, but I can still do it if you like.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: dustinhxc on Sat, 17 May 2014, 02:52:12
How the hell did I get on the banned list?  :confused:

Pacifist perceived that his perception of your perception of his caps was perceived to be negative.

Also, no one took my earlier appeal seriously :(.

So are you sad that you're not banned?

It's all water under the bridge as far as I'm concerned at this point.  I made my feelings known, others have had their say, and it is what it is.  I'll just be more selective in who I share things with in the future and what guides I make.

And I'm still making my 100% original designs and plan on unveiling a new one tomorrow with a freebie for whoever comes up with the best name for it.  My last caps were a bit more serious than usual and this new one returns to whimsy.

Sweet, excited to see it!  ;D
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Sat, 17 May 2014, 02:52:52
How the hell did I get on the banned list?  :confused:

How do you know you're banned?

His artisan thread.

oh. that's new.   :confused:
Title: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: riotonthebay on Sat, 17 May 2014, 02:53:24

How the hell did I get on the banned list?  :confused:

Pacifist perceived that his perception of your perception of his caps was perceived to be negative.

Also, no one took my earlier appeal seriously :(.

So are you sad that you're not banned?

I just wanna be a part of the exclusive club :(

I can add you to my short list of hidden users if it will make you feel better.

Of course I like you too much to not expand what you say or add you as a friend, but I can still do it if you like.

That's sweet of you :)

But no, I don't want you to have to expand to all my good comments...
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: nubbinator on Sat, 17 May 2014, 02:56:10
His artisan thread.

oh. that's new.   :confused:

I don't know a Spamaray or Nubbinator.  I do know a SpAmRaY and nubbinator though.


I tend to support new and novel capmakers (hell, hipsterpunks will tell you that as will JiggityJane who seems to have gone AWOL), but I guess I can't for any of his designs I may like at some point.  Oh well, his loss.

That's sweet of you :)

But no, I don't want you to have to expand to all my good comments...

That's cute, thinking you have good comments.





Kidding man, you're great.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: moptimus on Sat, 17 May 2014, 03:08:38
So everyone has their panties in a twist because someone who made keycaps used the same source material as inspiration/model as someone else?

Mountain over a mole-hill people.

If the issue is that one person has directly copied source material for personal gain, without paying royalties to an original user, than why is johny-come-lately the one copping the flak, surely that should be shared for everyone that has used trademarked items as source material.

You can bet your bottom dollar that if you started producing Mickey Mouse caps to sell, you would hear from Disney if you appeared on their radar, regardless whether it was a clay model base, a print on a cap, or just a mold from a figure.

Nature abhors a vacuum, but so does the market, if their is demand for custom keycaps, there will be supply - this can be seen in the rip-off clacks that surfaced, and it can be seen in everyone that makes caps to sell.


nope this isn't what happened at all m8

Well maybe not for you - you are invested in the situation - as an outsider, that is exactly what it looks like.

The artisan thread - he made a cap that looked like another cap that was itself a copy of something else, and than boom.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: baldgye on Sat, 17 May 2014, 04:20:49
How the hell did I get on the banned list?  :confused:

How do you know you're banned?

His artisan thread.

Hahahaha how did I not make the list?? It's more exclusive than clacks dibs list! >.<
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: TheSoulhunter on Sat, 17 May 2014, 06:09:29
I don't care about copies as long they don't pretend to be the original (fraud).
Often it helps to save money...

- I bought chinese copies of well known knife designs, similar quality but 1/3 the price
- I bought a chinese Terminator endo-skull statue copy, almost the same quality but 1/4 the price
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Sat, 17 May 2014, 06:23:48
His artisan thread.

oh. that's new.   :confused:

I don't know a Spamaray or Nubbinator.  I do know a SpAmRaY and nubbinator though.


Whew, guess we are still good then. Don't want to have to cry myself to sleep tonight.

And in all seriousness my biggest issue with any of this is there are just too many people out there who don't give a crap about community or keycaps or anything ALL they see are $$$$ and sheeple who will throw money at them. Open your eyes people.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Krogenar on Sat, 17 May 2014, 08:38:46
Thank you for your reply. I don't really consider myself an artist, but I have fallen in love with what resin casting can do, and I am going to take a sculpting class next year to learn more about art and have some more time to make caps.

That's great Pac. I wish you both artistic and financial success (however you decide to define them) -- just do me a favor? Stop with these sorts of statements:

Sheesh, no wonder there are no services like mine. I try to give back to the community and get stabbed in the back for it.

Just... have fun in the keycap casting rabbit hole, and don't try to be (or sound like) an altruist. Make cool **** for the sake of making cool ****, and if you can also make some money in the process, do it, and don't say that "I did it all for you, people!" Be honest. Say, "I did it for me -- to make cool **** and make some money." Because that, Pac, that would be original. Your designs may end up only being awesome in your own eyes, and that's okay too. Just don't conflate buying a pressure pot into tearing down the Berlin Wall, or throwing yourself on top of a financial hand grenade. Say, instead, "I want to make more/better/cooler **** (and money) and so I need a pressure pot."

This teacup tempest (at first) provoked a facepalm, but now I think these kinds of dust-ups are the mark of a creative community. No drama means there's no passion -- nothing is happening. Even with the rustling, GH is a fun place. To wit:

(yet another incredibly brilliant, engaging, perfectly written comment by yours truly)
ooohhh my god i dont care holy COW do i ever not care about whatever you have to say

LOL i actually read it what the hell is going on stop agreeing with me

Quote
When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of all who had been martyred for the word of God and for being faithful in their testimony.

 :-X

This is totally (sort of) off topic, but I have one of your flocked spacebars and it is awesome.  I've told you this before, but I'm telling you again because it's still true.   :-*

I really didn't want to mention this but since you mentioned it I think now you've forced me to -- my flocked keycaps are still available for sale at techkeys (http://techkeys.us/collections/artisan/products/flocked-keycaps). Check my keycap flocking build log (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47194.0) to see all the love that went into making them. And discover the mystery of the keycap bathmat.
Hoff, I'm glad you like the spacebar! Thanks for the mention -- also, keep in mind that when your flocked spacebar starts to gets dirty, it can be gently cleaned with hand soap and some TLC.

Last point and then I'm done: I hope people don't close up their worklogs. That would suck. I think these logs make it easier for others to learn, and some of those people will inevitably become competitors, but they also add perceived value to products. Which is more romantic? Seeing SP or GMK cast dozens of keycaps at once and unceremoniously dumped into a washing solution, or seeing them hand-designed and cast to the sonorous song-stylings of Barry White? So I hope the writeups continue because they're good for business and they push the art form forward.

Sincerely in it for the money,

-K.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Sissy on Sat, 17 May 2014, 08:52:47
Well this has at the very least been amusing to read
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Binge on Sat, 17 May 2014, 09:02:44
My log will stay up.  Pacifist's personal integrity aside there are plenty of great crafters out there who have done wonderful things with the knowledge.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Xowie on Sat, 17 May 2014, 09:08:56
His artisan thread.

oh. that's new.   :confused:

I don't know a Spamaray or Nubbinator.  I do know a SpAmRaY and nubbinator though.


Whew, guess we are still good then. Don't want to have to cry myself to sleep tonight.

And in all seriousness my biggest issue with any of this is there are just too many people out there who don't give a crap about community or keycaps or anything ALL they see are $$$$ and sheeple who will throw money at them. Open your eyes people.

I do not think that is too much of a surprise, nor necessarily a bad thing (maybe I am not correctly understanding what you mean). It is not that far of a stretch to imagine that someone who spends a lot on keyboards would also be willing to spend a lot on unique keycaps.

My log will stay up.  Pacifist's personal integrity aside there are plenty of great crafters out there who have done wonderful things with the knowledge.
Awesome  :thumb: I do not plan on making keycaps, but it is interesting read about the thought that goes into designing and making one.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Binge on Sat, 17 May 2014, 09:14:57
Awesome  :thumb: I do not plan on making keycaps, but it is interesting read about the thought that goes into designing and making one.

It was really interesting figuring a lot of it out!  There were great efforts made by capcrafters before me to document the process.  There's a great deal more information with regard to casting and sculpting on miniature/action figure creation forums.  At the end of the day I'm still just starting out in all of this.

Today, however, I have been inducted into the bestest club!

[attachimg=1]

I suggest others voluntarily join this club.  We can hold meets and eat cake and talk about things like what it would be to be a legit unicorn who can play electric guitar and win.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: BunnyLake on Sat, 17 May 2014, 09:33:23
Awesome  :thumb: I do not plan on making keycaps, but it is interesting read about the thought that goes into designing and making one.

It was really interesting figuring a lot of it out!  There were great efforts made by capcrafters before me to document the process.  There's a great deal more information with regard to casting and sculpting on miniature/action figure creation forums.  At the end of the day I'm still just starting out in all of this.

Today, however, I have been inducted into the bestest club!

(Attachment Link)

I suggest others voluntarily join this club.  We can hold meets and eat cake and talk about things like what it would be to be a legit unicorn who can play electric guitar and win.

we can call ourselves ATSL

the anti twat super league
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: hwood34 on Sat, 17 May 2014, 09:36:46
Awesome  :thumb: I do not plan on making keycaps, but it is interesting read about the thought that goes into designing and making one.

It was really interesting figuring a lot of it out!  There were great efforts made by capcrafters before me to document the process.  There's a great deal more information with regard to casting and sculpting on miniature/action figure creation forums.  At the end of the day I'm still just starting out in all of this.

Today, however, I have been inducted into the bestest club!

(Attachment Link)

I suggest others voluntarily join this club.  We can hold meets and eat cake and talk about things like what it would be to be a legit unicorn who can play electric guitar and win.

we can call ourselves ATSL

the anti twat super league
Man, I never get invited to the cool clubs :p
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: BunnyLake on Sat, 17 May 2014, 09:38:38
Awesome  :thumb: I do not plan on making keycaps, but it is interesting read about the thought that goes into designing and making one.

It was really interesting figuring a lot of it out!  There were great efforts made by capcrafters before me to document the process.  There's a great deal more information with regard to casting and sculpting on miniature/action figure creation forums.  At the end of the day I'm still just starting out in all of this.

Today, however, I have been inducted into the bestest club!

(Attachment Link)

I suggest others voluntarily join this club.  We can hold meets and eat cake and talk about things like what it would be to be a legit unicorn who can play electric guitar and win.

we can call ourselves ATSL

the anti twat super league
Man, I never get invited to the cool clubs :p

i dont think it takes much to be able to join, i got on the banlist just by asking a question to him
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: baldgye on Sat, 17 May 2014, 09:53:03
Awesome  :thumb: I do not plan on making keycaps, but it is interesting read about the thought that goes into designing and making one.

It was really interesting figuring a lot of it out!  There were great efforts made by capcrafters before me to document the process.  There's a great deal more information with regard to casting and sculpting on miniature/action figure creation forums.  At the end of the day I'm still just starting out in all of this.

Today, however, I have been inducted into the bestest club!

(Attachment Link)

I suggest others voluntarily join this club.  We can hold meets and eat cake and talk about things like what it would be to be a legit unicorn who can play electric guitar and win.

we can call ourselves ATSL

the anti twat super league

HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Best club never ever!
Title: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: riotonthebay on Sat, 17 May 2014, 09:56:07
I wish the master of ceremonies would allow my induction into the league :(
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Sat, 17 May 2014, 09:57:42
And in all seriousness my biggest issue with any of this is there are just too many people out there who don't give a crap about community or keycaps or anything ALL they see are $$$$ and sheeple who will throw money at them. Open your eyes people.
I do not think that is too much of a surprise, nor necessarily a bad thing (maybe I am not correctly understanding what you mean). It is not that far of a stretch to imagine that someone who spends a lot on keyboards would also be willing to spend a lot on unique keycaps.


I think people are just too quick to throw money at things and therefore you get people who just start throwing caps out there at $15-20 a pop with no regard for quality or respect for anyone, but that is just my opinion.

Again a lot of this all has to do with the attitude someone approaches this all with both buyer and seller as well as the different way we all perceive things. As you can see there are plenty who are willing to say they don't care about any artists are what someone has to do to make caps or what they have already done, they just want caps now, so take our money. This will in turn lead to plenty of people 'making' caps because they want to line there pockets. In fact I'd say it goes beyond caps to other things related to this hobby but I digress.

Is it free market, supply and demand, maybe but the more I think about it the people who are successful and the people who I respect their cap making, those people just thought they had a cool idea and wanted to try something out, it just so happened that others liked the caps they made and bought them but most of these capcrafters don't just pour out caps by the bag full because they put work and effort into what they do.

Something Krog (that ole' flocker, I like flocked caps to btw), said earlier is so true, we are all passionate about all things keyboard and we all have opinions, and come on it'd be boring if we always agreed with each other.

Also I have thrown my fair share of money at many of the artisans and vendors on here, not all of them but most of them, whether they are cap makers, cable makers etc because I think it is important to support the community.

Awesome  :thumb: I do not plan on making keycaps, but it is interesting read about the thought that goes into designing and making one.

It was really interesting figuring a lot of it out!  There were great efforts made by capcrafters before me to document the process.  There's a great deal more information with regard to casting and sculpting on miniature/action figure creation forums.  At the end of the day I'm still just starting out in all of this.

Today, however, I have been inducted into the bestest club!

(Attachment Link)

I suggest others voluntarily join this club.  We can hold meets and eat cake and talk about things like what it would be to be a legit unicorn who can play electric guitar and win.

1st place is best plate, but he could at least spell my username correctly.  :thumb:

And just so no one is confused it wouldn't matter if I was on the banned list or not I wouldn't be buying.

I wish the master of ceremonies would allow my induction into the league :(

Just buy a paccap then sell it to someone on the banned list that'll get you banned.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: baldgye on Sat, 17 May 2014, 10:01:27
Just buy a paccap then sell it to someone on the banned list that'll get you banned.

That would be good advice only his caps are horrible and I'd never be able to sell it to anyone QQ
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: lightsout714 on Sat, 17 May 2014, 10:39:59
Lol I made the list. Was really hoping to get some of those ;)
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: hwood34 on Sat, 17 May 2014, 10:42:41
Lol I made the list. Was really hoping to get some of those ;)
Who knows, someone might be able to hook you up ;)
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Sat, 17 May 2014, 10:58:39
Lol I made the list. Was really hoping to get some of those ;)
Who knows, someone might be able to hook you up ;)

But read the fine print you'll be blacklisted FOREVER if you do that.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Zeal on Sat, 17 May 2014, 11:01:38
Lol I made the list. Was really hoping to get some of those ;)
Who knows, someone might be able to hook you up ;)

But read the fine print you'll be blacklisted FOREVER if you do that.

But isn't that like the easiest way to enter this elusive club? :))
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Sat, 17 May 2014, 11:03:10
Lol I made the list. Was really hoping to get some of those ;)
Who knows, someone might be able to hook you up ;)

But read the fine print you'll be blacklisted FOREVER if you do that.

But isn't that like the easiest way to enter this elusive club? :))

Well if that's the intent then sure!
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: esoomenona on Sat, 17 May 2014, 11:14:55
So this thread has run it's course now, where we've devolved to poking fun at this stupid list, instead of just pointing out to Pacifist that his list is childish, because if those people didn't want them at all, they wouldn't buy them, regardless of what list they're on. Ray, perhaps you should consider closing it voluntarily. Or a moderator should.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: riotonthebay on Sat, 17 May 2014, 11:20:58
So this thread has run it's course now, where we've devolved to poking fun at this stupid list, instead of just pointing out to Pacifist that his list is childish, because if those people didn't want them at all, they wouldn't buy them, regardless of what list they're on. Ray, perhaps you should consider closing it voluntarily. Or a moderator should.

+1
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Sat, 17 May 2014, 11:23:11
So this thread has run it's course now, where we've devolved to poking fun at this stupid list, instead of just pointing out to Pacifist that his list is childish, because if those people didn't want them at all, they wouldn't buy them, regardless of what list they're on. Ray, perhaps you should consider closing it voluntarily. Or a moderator should.

I got this. ;)

Locking thread in 4, 3, 2....1....
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Tue, 27 May 2014, 18:24:15
And this threads open again...
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: rowdy on Tue, 27 May 2014, 18:25:25
Welcome back!
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: litster on Tue, 27 May 2014, 18:32:14
I didn't know this was parody.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37066.0

(http://i.imgur.com/hc2aM.jpg)

And this was parody of parody?  Mind blown!

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41915.0

(http://i.imgur.com/xW4PG6u.jpg)
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: rowdy on Tue, 27 May 2014, 18:33:40
^ That's respect!
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: nubbinator on Tue, 27 May 2014, 18:37:44
I didn't know this was parody.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37066.0

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/hc2aM.jpg)


And this was parody of parody?  Mind blown!

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41915.0

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/xW4PG6u.jpg)


I forgot how much I need an OG hapster in my life.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: VesperSAINT on Tue, 27 May 2014, 18:44:07
Schweet. I own an awesome parady of a parody! Love this cap.

(http://i.imgur.com/T4HHiZ3h.jpg)
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: IPT on Tue, 27 May 2014, 19:00:44
I didn't know this was parody.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37066.0

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/hc2aM.jpg)


And this was parody of parody?  Mind blown!

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41915.0

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/xW4PG6u.jpg)


i still don't have a yellow lister...
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: domoaligato on Tue, 27 May 2014, 19:06:11
inb4 parody inception
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: VesperSAINT on Tue, 27 May 2014, 19:10:46
inb4 parody inception

I was going to write that but decided against it... Now I regret it.  Lol.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Tue, 27 May 2014, 19:17:07
inb4 parody inception

I was going to write that but decided against it... Now I regret it.  Lol.

Always post first think later.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: rowdy on Tue, 27 May 2014, 20:09:09
Always post first think later regret never.

FTFY :p
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: lightsout714 on Tue, 27 May 2014, 20:30:49
Always post first think later regret never.

FTFY :p

lol
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: VesperSAINT on Tue, 27 May 2014, 20:48:58
inb4 parody inception

I was going to write that but decided against it... Now I regret it.  Lol.

Always post first think later.


Always post first think later regret never.

FTFY :p


Lol. Truth. Will do so from now on. Post first. Think later. Let the feels sink in later, whatever those feels may be.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: domoaligato on Tue, 27 May 2014, 20:50:44
inb4 parody inception

I have typed it multiple times today and second guessed it. Litsters post was the perfect time.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Tue, 27 May 2014, 21:00:20
inb4 parody inception

I was going to write that but decided against it... Now I regret it.  Lol.

Always post first think later.


Always post first think later regret never.

FTFY :p


Lol. Truth. Will do so from now on. Post first. Think later. Let the feels sink in later, whatever those feels may be.

I love you.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: litster on Tue, 27 May 2014, 21:04:23
So, what you guys are saying is not only did pac copy other people caps, he also copied my parody?  Or, everything he does has prior art before him?  Hum...
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: VesperSAINT on Tue, 27 May 2014, 22:40:15
inb4 parody inception

I was going to write that but decided against it... Now I regret it.  Lol.

Always post first think later.


Always post first think later regret never.

FTFY :p


Lol. Truth. Will do so from now on. Post first. Think later. Let the feels sink in later, whatever those feels may be.

I love you.

I love you too.

... Let the feelings set in after typing that first.. . Nothing needs to be changed :-*
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: do_Og@n on Wed, 28 May 2014, 00:01:42
What the hell is going on here....I've been "absent" from Geekhack for far to long.

IMO before you even start making a copy of someone else's design you should ask & receive permission. I asked Click Clack once for permission to paint some keycaps with his skull on them. It would have been just for me so no profit would have been made. But, he didn't say yes and he didn't say no.....so I didn't paint them.

If you do get permission it should never be to make a profit on or marked as an original. Just enjoy making them and using them for yourself.

If you are going to make your own artistic interpretation that is similar to someone else's work than at least tell them so it doesn't come as a surprise...that just sucks! Asking for permission is something I would still advise and please don't sell them for a profit. Give them away or use them for yourself. And of course....don't mark them as originals.

That being said I would like to wish everybody who is making keycaps or looking into it...good luck. I myself would like to start casting my own keycaps and designs.

And in reality most of this conversation could have all been handled through PM's. There is no need to call someone out like this even if that wasn't the threads original intention.


Good luck Pacifist! I can't wait to see what your future keycap casting will bring forth.



Now to get myself a red, flocked IBM spacebar!
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Fire Brand on Wed, 28 May 2014, 05:34:07
As with what do_Og@n said I also feel that this has turned into more of a personal attack on Pacifist at this point, which I don't think is very good, and it upsets me to see people here who I regard quite highly doing things like this and being quite petty, anyway can we all just play a little bit nicer.

Anyway my opinion I actually would like to get one of the blank ones as they look rather nice and I agree with most of you that I wouldn't like him using others peoples ideas, anyway that is what I think personally I don't like the way he's going about putting a public ban list up, it could of been handled better but I also don't like the fact everyone is having a crack at him, that is just my thoughts on this I just want the silly fighting to stop, as I wish everyone here on geekhack in a whole could just get along.

Okay have fun people and play nice.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Wed, 28 May 2014, 06:19:32
Added this to OP put posting it here for visibility

EDIT: Just to be clear yes this conversation was inspired by pacifist and the idea of 'giving people what they want' which I understood meant copying existing designs.

 This goes beyond pacifist and this thread is not intended for any sort of personal attack but to discuss the general idea that seems to be going around that up and coming cap makers should just make caps that look like existing caps because people will throw money at them.

Yes some people have used lego heads, toy heads etc which can also be seen as a copy cap so that fits in this discussion to.

Ask yourself this, do you think about or do you even care who you throw you money at for a custom keycap?
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Krogenar on Wed, 28 May 2014, 06:40:32
And in reality most of this conversation could have all been handled through PM's. There is no need to call someone out like this even if that wasn't the threads original intention.

Good luck Pacifist! I can't wait to see what your future keycap casting will bring forth.

Yeah, this. Just be nice to one another, be respectful, and if you have beef just handle it by PM, not by pitchfork.

Quote from: Doogan
Now to get myself a red, flocked IBM spacebar!

Now available at techkeys.us (http://techkeys.us/collections/artisan/products/flocked-keycaps) -- the only known place (that I know of) that sells flocked keycaps (that I made). Some exclusions may apply. Offer Not valid in North Korea, California and Vermont. Flocked keycaps are the exclusive intellectual property of KrogEvilCo, Global Unlimited, Incorporated. All rights reserved. Small children and pregnant women should not touch, possess, fondle or directly gaze at flocked keycaps. Known side effects of not purchasing flocked keycaps include (but are not limited to) oily discharge, suicidal thoughts, decreased sexual function, flatulence and irritable bowel syndrome.

Sincerely,

 -K. (Shameless Self-Promoter)

EDIT: The flocked keycaps can be found in the 'Artisan' category.
EDIT2: People who deny the potential side effects will be blacklisted as gay holograms on the run from the law, and will be denied purchase.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: domoaligato on Wed, 28 May 2014, 11:38:54
This basically explains how I feel

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/replica-counterfeit.html

If you can't sell it on ebay then you shouldn't be allowed to sell it here.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Quardah on Wed, 28 May 2014, 12:11:42
This basically explains how I feel

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/replica-counterfeit.html

If you can't sell it on ebay then you shouldn't be allowed to sell it here.

Who cares about what eBay has to say? They are doing millions hosting independant merchants stores and a money transfer service. If they didn't had this kind of policy they would get sued in the USA by thousands of people.

It's a corporation...

We are particulars on the internet; are laws to be involved between two persons who both agrees on a particular deal?

"Yes, this trade is going so well we should totally ask our countries for their opinions, piss us off, tax us and limit us to policies that have not been updated for years!"

**** off really. If people agrees on a trade, whatever is involved, its their businesses, no one elses.

Just my two words, no offence of course.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: domoaligato on Wed, 28 May 2014, 12:46:35
I think you missed the point. You are not allowed to sell replicas or counterfeit goods on ebay. Regardless of taxes or any of the stuff you said.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: IPT on Wed, 28 May 2014, 13:42:02
then just sell it on etsy
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Xowie on Wed, 28 May 2014, 13:52:39
This basically explains how I feel

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/replica-counterfeit.html

If you can't sell it on ebay then you shouldn't be allowed to sell it here.
Do you think that this should include Clack's Vader and Nubbinator's Clone Trooper then (and probably more)?
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: exitfire401 on Wed, 28 May 2014, 13:55:20
This basically explains how I feel

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/replica-counterfeit.html

If you can't sell it on ebay then you shouldn't be allowed to sell it here.
Do you think that this should include Clack's Vader and Nubbinator's Clone Trooper then (and probably more)?

Due to licensing laws, I do, but it's really not that big of a deal to me.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: domoaligato on Wed, 28 May 2014, 14:31:35
as exitfire401 brought up the cc vader and nubs clone/storm trooper's is a licensing issue. we are talking about out right counterfeiting someone else's work (one for one copys).

On etsy yes I can create a darth vader _______ and sell it.
they do not allow you to straight copy someone else's work and sell it.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Xowie on Wed, 28 May 2014, 15:10:19
as exitfire401 brought up the cc vader and nubs clone/storm trooper's is a licensing issue. we are talking about out right counterfeiting someone else's work (one for one copys).

On etsy yes I can create a darth vader _______ and sell it.
they do not allow you to straight copy someone else's work and sell it.

What about if it is not the same, but similar. Purely for example:
Pac's Storm Trooper:
(http://i.imgur.com/9ARDePD.png)
Nub's Clone Trooper:
(http://oi40.tinypic.com/azc6z8.jpg)

Clearly these are similar, but not one for one copies.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: domoaligato on Wed, 28 May 2014, 19:18:31
pac's storm trooper looks like a blob of resin that did not properly set/cure.
It is very hard to tell wtf it is. but you are right they are different.

I do not think that CC is going to like people making candycorn or Julysicle style caps.
We will just have to wait and see.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: domoaligato on Wed, 28 May 2014, 21:10:04
the people want pandas.

Show Image
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/76/Kungfupanda.jpg)


Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/xPY05pZ.png)



IC Please!
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Dyslexic on Fri, 30 May 2014, 14:24:02
I do not think that CC is going to like people making candycorn or Julysicle style caps.
We will just have to wait and see.

Maybe I should keep these sentiments to myself, but he doesn't own those colour schemes. While I would never personally copy the design, if he's not willing to meet the demand for the product he can hardly complain when someone steps in to fill the void. I've been on GH a year now and have yet to make it into any sale and have spent money acquiring after-market keycaps while I watch the same few people piling up massive collections of Clacks and Brobots because they get hand-picked when these sales and giveaways happen. I would rather see the money I spent on my Oktoberfest and Candy Corn clacks go into the maker's pockets, but I've never been granted the privilege of purchasing directly from the maker for any keycap but Binge (ps, my girlfriend loves her Keythulu), and that took a great deal of effort.

If these artisan keycap crafters don't want copycat products on the market then either increase the volume of production or the retail ask price so that the money is going into your pockets and not someone profiteering from the limited availability of the caps in question. Still waiting on my first Brobot or Clack skull, while I see things I submitted for in these sales being flipped before they even arrive in the mail.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Zombly on Fri, 30 May 2014, 14:30:01
pac's storm trooper looks like a blob of resin that did not properly set/cure.
It is very hard to tell wtf it is. but you are right they are different.

I do not think that CC is going to like people making candycorn or Julysicle style caps.
We will just have to wait and see.

Maybe I should keep these sentiments to myself, but he doesn't own those colour schemes. While I would never personally copy the design, if he's not willing to meet the demand for the product he can hardly complain when someone steps in to fill the void. I've been on GH a year now and have yet to make it into any sale and have spent money acquiring after-market keycaps while I watch the same few people piling up massive collections of Clacks and Brobots because they get hand-picked when these sales happen. I would rather see the money I spent on my Oktoberfest and Candy Corn clacks go into the maker's pockets, but I've never been granted the privilege of purchasing directly from the maker for any keycap but Binge (ps, my girlfriend loves her Keythulu), and that took a great deal of effort.

If these artisan keycap crafters don't want copycat products on the market then either increase the volume of production or the retail ask price so that the money is going into your pockets and not someone profiteering from the limited availability of the caps in question. Still waiting on my first Brobot or Clack skull, while I see things I submitted for in these sales being flipped before they even arrive in the mail.

A lot of cap makers want their product to be limited, and exclusive so their more "special" in a sense, so that when people trade them and not re-sell them for profit, which many artisians (key cap makers), frown upon, it's just so that each cap is special and unique
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Dyslexic on Fri, 30 May 2014, 14:35:09
pac's storm trooper looks like a blob of resin that did not properly set/cure.
It is very hard to tell wtf it is. but you are right they are different.

I do not think that CC is going to like people making candycorn or Julysicle style caps.
We will just have to wait and see.

Maybe I should keep these sentiments to myself, but he doesn't own those colour schemes. While I would never personally copy the design, if he's not willing to meet the demand for the product he can hardly complain when someone steps in to fill the void. I've been on GH a year now and have yet to make it into any sale and have spent money acquiring after-market keycaps while I watch the same few people piling up massive collections of Clacks and Brobots because they get hand-picked when these sales happen. I would rather see the money I spent on my Oktoberfest and Candy Corn clacks go into the maker's pockets, but I've never been granted the privilege of purchasing directly from the maker for any keycap but Binge (ps, my girlfriend loves her Keythulu), and that took a great deal of effort.

If these artisan keycap crafters don't want copycat products on the market then either increase the volume of production or the retail ask price so that the money is going into your pockets and not someone profiteering from the limited availability of the caps in question. Still waiting on my first Brobot or Clack skull, while I see things I submitted for in these sales being flipped before they even arrive in the mail.

A lot of cap makers want their product to be limited, and exclusive so their more "special" in a sense, so that when people trade them and not re-sell them for profit, which many artisians (key cap makers), frown upon, it's just so that each cap is special and unique

I understand the limited availability, what I don't understand is the holier-than-thou looking down on the second hand market. No one wants to pay the kind of money being asked for these caps on the classifieds, it's the only option to acquire them short of kissing ass long enough that they recognize your name in a sale or you end up on a dibs list. I'm not going to pretend that I've done anything to contribute to this community that would warrant that kind of favoritism, but don't complain that people flip your product when you limit their availability to the point where hitting send the second the sale begins is still a crap-shoot as to whether you're going to get in. They created these conditions, they don't get to complain that an inflated after-market exists for their products.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: nubbinator on Fri, 30 May 2014, 14:41:49
Caps take considerable time to make.  I typically spend anywhere from 45 minutes to 6 hours on a cap, depending on the resin or resins used.  You can help mitigate some of that time cost by making multiple molds, but production is always limited by time in artisan crafts.  Artisan craft, by its very definition, is going to be limited in production size since artisan crafts are a cottage industry.

In short, increasing production is difficult, can be costly, and, if you're not careful, can result in an excess of supply and a dearth of demand, meaning you effectively price yourself out of the market.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Dyslexic on Fri, 30 May 2014, 14:48:12
Caps take considerable time to make.  I typically spend anywhere from 45 minutes to 6 hours on a cap, depending on the resin or resins used.  You can help mitigate some of that time cost by making multiple molds, but production is always limited by time in artisan crafts.  Artisan craft, by its very definition, is going to be limited in production size since artisan crafts are a cottage industry.

In short, increasing production is difficult, can be costly, and, if you're not careful, can result in an excess of supply and a dearth of demand, meaning you effectively price yourself out of the market.

I'm a Financial Analyst by trade, I understand the basics of supply, demand and cost accounting. I'm not telling anyone how to go about their business, but they don't get to complain when other people step in to fill the void from the supply side. If their competitors' products are that inferior, they have nothing to worry about. If they're not, you don't get to ***** that someone is selling caps to people when you refuse to produce more. I have literally a half dozen e-mails with lists of keycaps I wanted in sales, none of which were fulfilled. Between Brocaps, Clack Factory and Bingecaps, they've left hundreds of dollars on the table collectively, and that's just me.

Edit: For the sake of clarity, I do not in any way advocate lifting unique designs from other artisans to meet demand. I would never purchase a counterfeit Brocap, Bingecap or Clack Skull. But Stormtroopers, Optimus Prime and blanks with colour patterns are hardly defensible as the artisans don't own the image/design in the first place.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Michael on Fri, 30 May 2014, 14:55:22
Caps take considerable time to make.  I typically spend anywhere from 45 minutes to 6 hours on a cap, depending on the resin or resins used.  You can help mitigate some of that time cost by making multiple molds, but production is always limited by time in artisan crafts.  Artisan craft, by its very definition, is going to be limited in production size since artisan crafts are a cottage industry.

In short, increasing production is difficult, can be costly, and, if you're not careful, can result in an excess of supply and a dearth of demand, meaning you effectively price yourself out of the market.

I'm a Financial Analyst by trade, I understand the basics of supply, demand and cost accounting. I'm not telling anyone how to go about their business, but they don't get to complain when other people step in to fill the void from the supply side. If their competitors products are that inferior, they have nothing to worry about. If they're not, you don't get to ***** that someone is selling caps to people when you refuse to produce more. I have literally a half dozen e-mails with lists of keycaps I wanted in sales, none of which were fulfilled. Between Brocaps, Clack Factor and Bingecaps, they've left hundreds of dollars on the table collectively, and that's just me.


Don't exactly know why you feel people are being 'hand picked', but your information is incorrect. This isn't a full-time job for me, it's a hobby. I don't have time to pump out parts all day, every day. I wouldn't want that in any case. I do this for fun, and because people enjoy and appreciate my work. Just because you didn't get into a sale, doesn't give you the right to make assumptions about all the keycap makers on this forum. If you lack patience, then this hobby isn't for you. Because that's what it takes. There's limited parts because I can't make more, there's no conspiracy here (hue).



Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Dyslexic on Fri, 30 May 2014, 14:59:57
Caps take considerable time to make.  I typically spend anywhere from 45 minutes to 6 hours on a cap, depending on the resin or resins used.  You can help mitigate some of that time cost by making multiple molds, but production is always limited by time in artisan crafts.  Artisan craft, by its very definition, is going to be limited in production size since artisan crafts are a cottage industry.

In short, increasing production is difficult, can be costly, and, if you're not careful, can result in an excess of supply and a dearth of demand, meaning you effectively price yourself out of the market.

I'm a Financial Analyst by trade, I understand the basics of supply, demand and cost accounting. I'm not telling anyone how to go about their business, but they don't get to complain when other people step in to fill the void from the supply side. If their competitors products are that inferior, they have nothing to worry about. If they're not, you don't get to ***** that someone is selling caps to people when you refuse to produce more. I have literally a half dozen e-mails with lists of keycaps I wanted in sales, none of which were fulfilled. Between Brocaps, Clack Factor and Bingecaps, they've left hundreds of dollars on the table collectively, and that's just me.


Don't exactly know why you feel people are being 'hand picked', but your information is incorrect. This isn't a full-time job for me, it's a hobby. I don't have time to pump out parts all day, every day. I wouldn't want that in any case. I do this for fun, and because people enjoy and appreciate my work. Just because you didn't get into a sale, doesn't give you the right to make assumptions about all the keycap makers on this forum. If you lack patience, then this hobby isn't for you. Because that's what it takes. There's limited parts because I can't make more, there's no conspiracy here (hue).

I'm hardly claiming any kind of tin-foil hat situation, I've noticed in my year here that the same few people consistently acquire a number of new Brobots and Clacks very regularly, some of the same few names make it in sale after sale. Whether through the dibs process (which does exist for clack) or sheer dumb luck, or trading their pre-existing collections amongst the networks they've established. It's very hard to break into this market, especially if the caps you've acquired are ones you intend to keep, so "frowning on the secondary market" is laughable because frankly it's been my only option to date. I would much rather that the person who did the work got my money (including any aftermarket markups). I think being a part of the community and not *****ing about my lack of fortune in these sales until now is patience. I will continue to hope I get into one of your sales, I think your products are truly fantastic.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: HPE1000 on Fri, 30 May 2014, 15:09:06
Caps take considerable time to make.  I typically spend anywhere from 45 minutes to 6 hours on a cap, depending on the resin or resins used.  You can help mitigate some of that time cost by making multiple molds, but production is always limited by time in artisan crafts.  Artisan craft, by its very definition, is going to be limited in production size since artisan crafts are a cottage industry.

In short, increasing production is difficult, can be costly, and, if you're not careful, can result in an excess of supply and a dearth of demand, meaning you effectively price yourself out of the market.

I'm a Financial Analyst by trade, I understand the basics of supply, demand and cost accounting. I'm not telling anyone how to go about their business, but they don't get to complain when other people step in to fill the void from the supply side. If their competitors products are that inferior, they have nothing to worry about. If they're not, you don't get to ***** that someone is selling caps to people when you refuse to produce more. I have literally a half dozen e-mails with lists of keycaps I wanted in sales, none of which were fulfilled. Between Brocaps, Clack Factor and Bingecaps, they've left hundreds of dollars on the table collectively, and that's just me.


Don't exactly know why you feel people are being 'hand picked', but your information is incorrect. This isn't a full-time job for me, it's a hobby. I don't have time to pump out parts all day, every day. I wouldn't want that in any case. I do this for fun, and because people enjoy and appreciate my work. Just because you didn't get into a sale, doesn't give you the right to make assumptions about all the keycap makers on this forum. If you lack patience, then this hobby isn't for you. Because that's what it takes. There's limited parts because I can't make more, there's no conspiracy here (hue).

I'm hardly claiming any kind of tin-foil hat situation, I've noticed in my year here that the same few people consistently acquire a number of new Brobots and Clacks very regularly, some of the same few names make it in sale after sale. Whether through the dibs process (which does exist for clack) or sheer dumb luck, or trading their pre-existing collections amongst the networks they've established. It's very hard to break into this market, especially if the caps you've acquired are ones you intend to keep, so "frowning on the secondary market" is laughable because frankly it's been my only option to date. I would much rather that the person who did the work got my money (including any aftermarket markups). I think being a part of the community and not *****ing about my lack of fortune in these sales until now is patience. I will continue to hope I get into one of your sales, I think your products are truly fantastic.
You have to realize that these sales are conducted through email and they sell out in seconds, and it isn't exactly the easiest thing to get your email sent the literal second the sale starts. The type of internet you have, the distance you are to the seller, and the email service you are using should all have an impact on if you get in. I would say that the people that win every single time have simply figured out the best way to do so.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Dyslexic on Fri, 30 May 2014, 15:15:35
You have to realize that these sales are conducted through email and they sell out in seconds, and it isn't exactly the easiest thing to get your email sent the literal second the sale starts. The type of internet you have, the distance you are to the seller, and the email service you are using should all have an impact on if you get in. I would say that the people that win every single time have simply figured out the best way to do so.

I'm afraid we're getting a bit off topic here. This isn't about me, I do not claim to know how to best conduct business as an artisan keycap maker, and I would never presume to tell them how to run their business. My lack of luck is what it is, I don't fault Bro because I have yet to get into a sale. I was merely pointing out that given the existing constraints on the supply, that "frowning on secondary markets" and criticizing people for flipping these caps or trying to fill the void comes off pretty lame. This is coming from someone who absolutely does not participate in this market for profit. Any keycaps I've acquired are either on my keyboard or flipped for the price I paid, which was retail for the gasmasks that came into my possession. I've yet to own a Clack Skull or Bro, much less flip them for profit.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Fri, 30 May 2014, 15:24:02
It's become clear there are many people capable of producing different variations of custom artisan caps here on geekhack.

So from the OP

Quote
Ask yourself this, do you think about or do you even care who you throw you money at for a custom keycap?

Personally I've followed nubs and binge specifically ever since I can remember them making caps if I buy there caps its part because I like the cap and part because of a perceived 'bond' if you will to who they are and why they make caps.

Like Bro mentioned he makes caps for the fun of it and because he knows people enjoy them, I think this is a common theme for many cap makers but I can't say it is for all of them.

Some cap makers attempt to push the envelope just to see what they can make using different materials, methods etc.

What part does who the actual artisan is making the cap play into all this?

Does it matter what a persons motivations are?
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: HPE1000 on Fri, 30 May 2014, 15:35:01
I know, back on topic.

I think that if the product isn't the keycap makers own original design in the first place, there is no problem with people copying it if I am honest.

Let me just make up a scenario. If someone took zoidbergs (futurama) head and put it on a keycap, I do not see a problem with that. And if someone else came along and put a similar zoidberg head on a different keycap I see nothing wrong with that. And I find it very hard to say that the first person has any right to question or punish the 2nd person UNLESS the 2nd person literally took the first persons keycap and made an exact replica out of it. In my opinion, it takes much less talent to put an already existing design on top of a keycap than making a design from scratch.

Just look at all of the iron man keycaps out there, they are all different designs of the same thing, but none of those people who are making those keycaps actually designed ironman. If you understand me. So NONE of them, not even the first person to do so should be able to claim the design as their own.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Fire Brand on Fri, 30 May 2014, 15:39:30
What part does who the actual artisan is making the cap play into all this?

Does it matter what a persons motivations are?


I personally think the maker does somewhat play into this, a they should have the right to say if they want someone making copies of a key, although I don't think unless mistaken they should be able to do this on colours, such as the well known candy corn key, for me this is a bit a of a grey area as its only a blank key coloured as it is but if someone where to do the same is that a copy of the candy corn or just another blank key with the same pattern? just my musing on that is a blank key that has the same pattern as a candy corn, a candy corn copy or is it a blank?

As for the second question personally I don't care much for the motivations if I like the key I like the key, even if it turns out the maker is evil or so on, sure its nice to know the keymaker is doing it for fun/enjoyment but I don't personally care too much even if they are in it solely for the profit, I would mind too much if I like the key but thats just me, as long as it looks pretty I don't care.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: osi on Fri, 30 May 2014, 15:41:28
If something is popular and is making money -- someone, somewhere will make a counterfeit or look-alike version.

For example, let's look at Coach brand handbags. Bootlegs can be purchased for much cheaper than that real deal and sometimes take an expert's eye to discern true from fake. There is a HUGE market for non genuine products like this. The US actively tries to fight counterfeiting busting up flea markets, storage containers, and doing thorough border inspections to find counterfeit goods. Coach handbags are just one example.

Could Coach be losing some market share to fake goods? Sure but they are still making plenty of money. Hell, you could even go as far to say that people toting around fake bags are free marketing for the real brand. This example applies to larger brands that can absorb the losses easier than say an Artisan here at geekhack. Also, the market for keyboards is a niche market and even further, the keycap market is even more niche.

Generally, we all can look at a cap and have the confidence to say certainty, "This is a binge" or "This is a Bro". So all of a sudden, a few similar caps start popping up, artisans could potentially lose customers. In this case, Artisans lose money and customers will have potentially sub par caps.

I'm all in for welcoming new Artisans but blatant attempts to craft caps with previously released popular color schemes/models I feel is disrespectful and a slap in the face to the original artisan. As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, this is cool if you are experimenting on your own and want to make a few caps for yourself or possibly give a few out to your friends.

Guys, we ARE the community AND the market and it is up to us to protect it! There is good reason why Clacks and Bros are popular. If these Artisan's flooded the market with their product, demand would decrease. The same would happen if copy caps entered the market.

"But Bros and Clacks completely sell out every sale!! I can't ever get in!!". First off, cry me a river. The events have short announcement to sale windows but they are plenty visible, especially if you are a geekhack user. Secondly, these are quality caps produced in limited quantity--not everyone can be fortunate enough to make a sale. Sorry, that's just how any collector's market is.


If I were crafting a cap, to even have only 1 thought of "damn this cap looks similar to so and so" would be enough to deter the design. Any self respecting artist, I'd hope, would agree with me here.


                           COPYCAPS

[attach=1]

Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: domoaligato on Fri, 30 May 2014, 15:51:17
Don't exactly know why you feel people are being 'hand picked', but your information is incorrect. This isn't a full-time job for me, it's a hobby. I don't have time to pump out parts all day, every day. I wouldn't want that in any case. I do this for fun, and because people enjoy and appreciate my work. Just because you didn't get into a sale, doesn't give you the right to make assumptions about all the keycap makers on this forum. If you lack patience, then this hobby isn't for you. Because that's what it takes. There's limited parts because I can't make more, there's no conspiracy here (hue).

+1

Depending on the material it can take a very long time to create each artisan keycap.
I am going to use nubbs latest creation as a example....

(http://i.imgur.com/np4JdU3.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/RPMlGkr.jpg)


This is 4 different colors of resin. each taking anywhere from 10 minutes to 24 hours to cure fully.

I have tried many different types of resin and at the moment my average time to create one single simple keycap is:

silicon mold in 2 parts =
first part = 4 hours cure time + 4 hours post cure time
second = same amount of time as the first so 8 hours

16 hours total for mold creation just in curing.
add a extra 1/2 hour to prep the part and create the mold box and other stuff

16.5 hours in molding total.

each casting pour takes 4 hours + 6 hours of post curing @ room temp then 6 hours post cure @ 150F
This = 16 hours for a single casting pour.

So in the end I am spending 32.5 hours per keycap if I have to create the mold.
after this it is 16 hours each time to create a new keycap.

If nubbs is using materials anywhere near what I am using then that is 64 hours to create one 4 shot keycap...

 :eek:
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Binge on Fri, 30 May 2014, 16:41:20
@Dyslexic - Hey man I am really happy there is some love for the keythulhus, and even more happy you are able to own one of my caps.  Please do not take what I'm about to say as a personal attack, but I want you to understand that people make markets out of art because markets exist.  Because of the society we live in the act of creating and the ethics behind it are based in supply and demand.  There is an outcry for respect to be given to artists because at the end of the day their art is undervalued because... well, everyone's an artist man.  What makes your crappy hand movements more valuable than mine?  It's all subjective right?

There is something that is lost to most folks that I've had to live with my whole life.  In my time I produce what others consider to be art, I want it to be art, and it is still a use of my time where I've learned to put my heart into this work.  Nobody can quantify how much I love a piece, and I can't put a price on it.  One in my position learns to price things so they don't starve doing what they love.

The last part I mentioned is selling out.  I've been told a 'true' artist doesn't do it for money.  I find that to be a crock of ****.  That's a way that people create internal value so they can keep doing what they love and become immune to the 'everyone else' whom often say that anyone can make that with the right set of skills.

I see it as a way an artist respects their effort and work if the work is exchanged for goods/services/cash.  It is proof that the work is life-blood and precious time.  In this world of supply and demand the artist is taking something precious, slapping value on it, and now the world sees it through the filter of supply and demand.

This is not how the artist FEELS about the issue.  When someone letter for letter knows what makes your product work, what makes it valuable, and how to make you less successful there is an attack on the supply and demand (value) and the feelings of the artist.  Outwardly stating one intends to undervalue their own time in order to bring down the oppressive corrupt crafters is a load of horse ****.  They just want people to give them money for a candy corn colored key.  It doesn't matter how much people want it there is not the love, feeling, or concept that birthed the piece on the first place.

Imagine there is someone who had a great idea, and later someone wants to have been the person who designed that great idea.  One person has feelings, positive ones, which caused them to persist create the design in the first place, and then there is the other who either doesn't care and likes candy corn colors on a key or truly wants to be recognized for their 'achievement' in reproducing that effect.  That sort of relationship is hard to quantify but one thing is certain... the originator had market presence, and the other person used them as a vehicle to gain market presence.

Being used is a bit of a *****.  I feel as though my words are twisted about in a sick game of whisper down the lane when it has come to my thoughts on crafting and being an artist.  It's taken YEARS to feel like I have real reasons for staying with this emotionally sordid and splendid hobby (being an artist).  I believe I can sort out the folks who would rather be recognized for their own efforts and those who more often seek to be recognized for the efforts they best mimic.  There's a third kind of individual and that is the person 'filling market demand'.

Filling market demand has no roots in the artists community, but trust me when I've heard the words, "If you compete and succeed as an artist, you can count on baseline market competition."  It's hard for me to try and determine who is more deserving of the fumes, stains, and time in a day spent making keys when there are people entitled to filling market demand and on the other hand people who found something that makes them happy.  Why should I even feel like my efforts are strong enough to fight this lack of respect for artists' work by people who deserve to eat?  I don't really know for sure what words or actions could justify any of my feelings with regard to fairness, but I can say for certain that I abhor any action from crafter, customer, or the market which emotionally compromises the artist and their work.  My disgust is not confined to copycaps but to a lesser extent carries out to aftermarket sale of keycaps marked up from retail.  If you feel the art you bought doesn't suit you... then sell it at the right price so someone can enjoy the piece or even better, trade it.

Forgive me for rambling and forgive me for singling you out.  I feel as though you got to own something I created which humbles me and empowers me to find passion in this work.  If someone else made a key specifically to prevent me from being the source of keythulhus I would be devastated.  You understand this to some extent, and so some of my words will reach you.  This is the best I can do as someone with greater ability to sculpt, draw, and work with my hands than to write to speak about how I believe folks with similar passions feel and how it affects the beautiful things that eventually make it to you.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Dyslexic on Fri, 30 May 2014, 17:09:44
I actually really, really appreciate your response Binge. I definitely mentioned previously that lifting original designs is something I absolutely would not support, but you also have a great point about being innovative and then having people stand on your shoulders, so to speak. As for myself, here's hoping I get an opportunity to round out my girlfriend's Ducky with more of your lovely work in the near future. :) This was merely the perspective of an appreciator of the work that's out there and some of the frustrations I encounter with trying to build a small collection myself.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: feizor on Fri, 30 May 2014, 20:19:56
I actually really, really appreciate your response Binge. I definitely mentioned previously that lifting original designs is something I absolutely would not support, but you also have a great point about being innovative and then having people stand on your shoulders, so to speak. As for myself, here's hoping I get an opportunity to round out my girlfriend's Ducky with more of your lovely work in the near future. :) This was merely the perspective of an appreciator of the work that's out there and some of the frustrations I encounter with trying to build a small collection myself.

You're gonna have some competition for those keythulhus mate. They are my favorite binge cap  :thumb:
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Binge on Fri, 30 May 2014, 21:41:46
/me makes some more keythulhu molds.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: domoaligato on Fri, 30 May 2014, 23:16:35
/me makes some more pyrocaps, while *****ing about my 2 part molds still having issues. :(
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Fri, 30 May 2014, 23:30:18
/me moves to a place where he is more able to make his own keycaps.   :eek:
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: esoomenona on Fri, 30 May 2014, 23:34:05
/me whargarbl
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: tbc on Sat, 31 May 2014, 04:00:42
I actually really, really appreciate your response Binge. I definitely mentioned previously that lifting original designs is something I absolutely would not support, but you also have a great point about being innovative and then having people stand on your shoulders, so to speak. As for myself, here's hoping I get an opportunity to round out my girlfriend's Ducky with more of your lovely work in the near future. :) This was merely the perspective of an appreciator of the work that's out there and some of the frustrations I encounter with trying to build a small collection myself.

You're gonna have some competition for those keythulhus mate. They are my favorite binge cap  :thumb:


all yall need to stay away from my blue translucent and gold keythulhus :p
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: OnTheBrink on Sat, 31 May 2014, 23:21:00
Caps take considerable time to make.  I typically spend anywhere from 45 minutes to 6 hours on a cap, depending on the resin or resins used.  You can help mitigate some of that time cost by making multiple molds, but production is always limited by time in artisan crafts.  Artisan craft, by its very definition, is going to be limited in production size since artisan crafts are a cottage industry.

In short, increasing production is difficult, can be costly, and, if you're not careful, can result in an excess of supply and a dearth of demand, meaning you effectively price yourself out of the market.

I'm a Financial Analyst by trade, I understand the basics of supply, demand and cost accounting. I'm not telling anyone how to go about their business, but they don't get to complain when other people step in to fill the void from the supply side. If their competitors products are that inferior, they have nothing to worry about. If they're not, you don't get to ***** that someone is selling caps to people when you refuse to produce more. I have literally a half dozen e-mails with lists of keycaps I wanted in sales, none of which were fulfilled. Between Brocaps, Clack Factor and Bingecaps, they've left hundreds of dollars on the table collectively, and that's just me.


Don't exactly know why you feel people are being 'hand picked', but your information is incorrect. This isn't a full-time job for me, it's a hobby. I don't have time to pump out parts all day, every day. I wouldn't want that in any case. I do this for fun, and because people enjoy and appreciate my work. Just because you didn't get into a sale, doesn't give you the right to make assumptions about all the keycap makers on this forum. If you lack patience, then this hobby isn't for you. Because that's what it takes. There's limited parts because I can't make more, there's no conspiracy here (hue).

While I've seen Bro give caps to "Broless Bros" and due to several conversations with a few OG members, I do agree that that the illusion certain members get priority on sales is most likely false (many have pictures of collections not in their possessions or have been lurking a LONG time). I would still beg you to be a bit objective 'Bro'.

The man is admiring your work and is literally frustrated because he WANTS to support you but is forced to support a secondary market or re-seller. While I do not agree with some of his points, taking a humble approach to embrace a member who wants to be a collector which drives your business is not only best for the discussion, but best for the community. Even if I don't agree, I for one admire anyone who posts their genuine opinion instead of just 1 upping posts and brown nosing the top artisans. These are obviously genuine concerns and I can confirm (from others) he is not the only one who thinks there are people getting priority. If that is something you don't give a damn about, then so be it. I just don't think it's best to jump down the man's throat because he is voicing himself. Personally, I don't think anything he said was offensive.

ON TOPIC: I am not in favor of people copying original work and the only way I see a cap of an IP someone else already made a cap of being admissible is if it is done a different way. As for plain caps with color combinations, I think that is fair game.  However, it is still a heavily grey area and should be handled on a case to case basis.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Michael on Sat, 31 May 2014, 23:24:06
Caps take considerable time to make.  I typically spend anywhere from 45 minutes to 6 hours on a cap, depending on the resin or resins used.  You can help mitigate some of that time cost by making multiple molds, but production is always limited by time in artisan crafts.  Artisan craft, by its very definition, is going to be limited in production size since artisan crafts are a cottage industry.

In short, increasing production is difficult, can be costly, and, if you're not careful, can result in an excess of supply and a dearth of demand, meaning you effectively price yourself out of the market.

I'm a Financial Analyst by trade, I understand the basics of supply, demand and cost accounting. I'm not telling anyone how to go about their business, but they don't get to complain when other people step in to fill the void from the supply side. If their competitors products are that inferior, they have nothing to worry about. If they're not, you don't get to ***** that someone is selling caps to people when you refuse to produce more. I have literally a half dozen e-mails with lists of keycaps I wanted in sales, none of which were fulfilled. Between Brocaps, Clack Factor and Bingecaps, they've left hundreds of dollars on the table collectively, and that's just me.


Don't exactly know why you feel people are being 'hand picked', but your information is incorrect. This isn't a full-time job for me, it's a hobby. I don't have time to pump out parts all day, every day. I wouldn't want that in any case. I do this for fun, and because people enjoy and appreciate my work. Just because you didn't get into a sale, doesn't give you the right to make assumptions about all the keycap makers on this forum. If you lack patience, then this hobby isn't for you. Because that's what it takes. There's limited parts because I can't make more, there's no conspiracy here (hue).

While I've seen Bro give caps to "Broless Bros" and due to several conversations with a few OG members, I do agree that that the illusion certain members get priority on sales is most likely false (many have pictures of collections not in their possessions or have been lurking a LONG time). I would still beg you to be a bit objective 'Bro'.

The man is admiring your work and is literally frustrated because he WANTS to support you but is forced to support a secondary market or re-seller. While I do not agree with some of his points, taking a humble approach to embrace a member who wants to be a collector which drives your business is not only best for the discussion, but best for the community. Even if I don't agree, I for one admire anyone who posts their genuine opinion instead of just 1 upping posts and brown nosing the top artisans. These are obviously genuine concerns and I can confirm (from others) he is not the only one who thinks there are people getting priority. If that is something you don't give a damn about, then so be it. I just don't think it's best to jump down the man's throat because he is voicing himself. Personally, I don't think anything he said was offensive.

ON TOPIC: I am not in favor of people copying original work and the only way I see a cap of an IP someone else already made a cap of being admissible is if it is done a different way. As for plain caps with color combinations, I think that is fair game but also on a case by case basis. Either way, it is still a heavily grey areas in my opinion.


Sorry, but how am I not being 'objective'? I was simply addressing his concerns with the actual facts. Please don't make assumptions about my supposed 'attitude' written in text form.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: OnTheBrink on Sat, 31 May 2014, 23:35:16
Caps take considerable time to make.  I typically spend anywhere from 45 minutes to 6 hours on a cap, depending on the resin or resins used.  You can help mitigate some of that time cost by making multiple molds, but production is always limited by time in artisan crafts.  Artisan craft, by its very definition, is going to be limited in production size since artisan crafts are a cottage industry.

In short, increasing production is difficult, can be costly, and, if you're not careful, can result in an excess of supply and a dearth of demand, meaning you effectively price yourself out of the market.

I'm a Financial Analyst by trade, I understand the basics of supply, demand and cost accounting. I'm not telling anyone how to go about their business, but they don't get to complain when other people step in to fill the void from the supply side. If their competitors products are that inferior, they have nothing to worry about. If they're not, you don't get to ***** that someone is selling caps to people when you refuse to produce more. I have literally a half dozen e-mails with lists of keycaps I wanted in sales, none of which were fulfilled. Between Brocaps, Clack Factor and Bingecaps, they've left hundreds of dollars on the table collectively, and that's just me.


Don't exactly know why you feel people are being 'hand picked', but your information is incorrect. This isn't a full-time job for me, it's a hobby. I don't have time to pump out parts all day, every day. I wouldn't want that in any case. I do this for fun, and because people enjoy and appreciate my work. Just because you didn't get into a sale, doesn't give you the right to make assumptions about all the keycap makers on this forum. If you lack patience, then this hobby isn't for you. Because that's what it takes. There's limited parts because I can't make more, there's no conspiracy here (hue).

While I've seen Bro give caps to "Broless Bros" and due to several conversations with a few OG members, I do agree that that the illusion certain members get priority on sales is most likely false (many have pictures of collections not in their possessions or have been lurking a LONG time). I would still beg you to be a bit objective 'Bro'.

The man is admiring your work and is literally frustrated because he WANTS to support you but is forced to support a secondary market or re-seller. While I do not agree with some of his points, taking a humble approach to embrace a member who wants to be a collector which drives your business is not only best for the discussion, but best for the community. Even if I don't agree, I for one admire anyone who posts their genuine opinion instead of just 1 upping posts and brown nosing the top artisans. These are obviously genuine concerns and I can confirm (from others) he is not the only one who thinks there are people getting priority. If that is something you don't give a damn about, then so be it. I just don't think it's best to jump down the man's throat because he is voicing himself. Personally, I don't think anything he said was offensive.

ON TOPIC: I am not in favor of people copying original work and the only way I see a cap of an IP someone else already made a cap of being admissible is if it is done a different way. As for plain caps with color combinations, I think that is fair game but also on a case by case basis. Either way, it is still a heavily grey areas in my opinion.


Sorry, but how am I not being 'objective'? I was simply addressing his concerns with the actual facts. Please don't make assumptions about my supposed 'attitude' written in text form.

There is nothing assumptive about you using the words "conspiracy" and "you don't get the right to". Also, suggesting he doesn't have patience is quite the opposite of being objective.

But please let me know what attitude you have in this message because from where I'm sitting it sounds like you're being quite the pompous.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Michael on Sat, 31 May 2014, 23:42:03
Caps take considerable time to make.  I typically spend anywhere from 45 minutes to 6 hours on a cap, depending on the resin or resins used.  You can help mitigate some of that time cost by making multiple molds, but production is always limited by time in artisan crafts.  Artisan craft, by its very definition, is going to be limited in production size since artisan crafts are a cottage industry.

In short, increasing production is difficult, can be costly, and, if you're not careful, can result in an excess of supply and a dearth of demand, meaning you effectively price yourself out of the market.

I'm a Financial Analyst by trade, I understand the basics of supply, demand and cost accounting. I'm not telling anyone how to go about their business, but they don't get to complain when other people step in to fill the void from the supply side. If their competitors products are that inferior, they have nothing to worry about. If they're not, you don't get to ***** that someone is selling caps to people when you refuse to produce more. I have literally a half dozen e-mails with lists of keycaps I wanted in sales, none of which were fulfilled. Between Brocaps, Clack Factor and Bingecaps, they've left hundreds of dollars on the table collectively, and that's just me.


Don't exactly know why you feel people are being 'hand picked', but your information is incorrect. This isn't a full-time job for me, it's a hobby. I don't have time to pump out parts all day, every day. I wouldn't want that in any case. I do this for fun, and because people enjoy and appreciate my work. Just because you didn't get into a sale, doesn't give you the right to make assumptions about all the keycap makers on this forum. If you lack patience, then this hobby isn't for you. Because that's what it takes. There's limited parts because I can't make more, there's no conspiracy here (hue).

While I've seen Bro give caps to "Broless Bros" and due to several conversations with a few OG members, I do agree that that the illusion certain members get priority on sales is most likely false (many have pictures of collections not in their possessions or have been lurking a LONG time). I would still beg you to be a bit objective 'Bro'.

The man is admiring your work and is literally frustrated because he WANTS to support you but is forced to support a secondary market or re-seller. While I do not agree with some of his points, taking a humble approach to embrace a member who wants to be a collector which drives your business is not only best for the discussion, but best for the community. Even if I don't agree, I for one admire anyone who posts their genuine opinion instead of just 1 upping posts and brown nosing the top artisans. These are obviously genuine concerns and I can confirm (from others) he is not the only one who thinks there are people getting priority. If that is something you don't give a damn about, then so be it. I just don't think it's best to jump down the man's throat because he is voicing himself. Personally, I don't think anything he said was offensive.

ON TOPIC: I am not in favor of people copying original work and the only way I see a cap of an IP someone else already made a cap of being admissible is if it is done a different way. As for plain caps with color combinations, I think that is fair game but also on a case by case basis. Either way, it is still a heavily grey areas in my opinion.


Sorry, but how am I not being 'objective'? I was simply addressing his concerns with the actual facts. Please don't make assumptions about my supposed 'attitude' written in text form.

There is nothing assumptive about you using the words "conspiracy" and "you don't get the right to". Also, suggesting he doesn't have patience is quite the opposite of being objective.




Assumptions:
If that is something you don't give a damn about, then so be it.

jump down the man's throat

taking a humble approach


Your assumptions are that you feel I have an attitude about it, but just the opposite - I want to make it clear that he isn't correct, as well as offer information and insight as to why.

And it's absolutely about patience. If a person has the patience, then 'frustration' wouldn't come into play. There's only so many cap makers and caps to go around. And there are a lot more people that want them than we can provide for. I don't think you are getting that point here. In any case, I hope I gave enough info here for those who were concerned.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: anoxy on Sat, 31 May 2014, 23:47:26
We are the 99%

amirite
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: exitfire401 on Sat, 31 May 2014, 23:47:29
Caps take considerable time to make.  I typically spend anywhere from 45 minutes to 6 hours on a cap, depending on the resin or resins used.  You can help mitigate some of that time cost by making multiple molds, but production is always limited by time in artisan crafts.  Artisan craft, by its very definition, is going to be limited in production size since artisan crafts are a cottage industry.

In short, increasing production is difficult, can be costly, and, if you're not careful, can result in an excess of supply and a dearth of demand, meaning you effectively price yourself out of the market.

I'm a Financial Analyst by trade, I understand the basics of supply, demand and cost accounting. I'm not telling anyone how to go about their business, but they don't get to complain when other people step in to fill the void from the supply side. If their competitors products are that inferior, they have nothing to worry about. If they're not, you don't get to ***** that someone is selling caps to people when you refuse to produce more. I have literally a half dozen e-mails with lists of keycaps I wanted in sales, none of which were fulfilled. Between Brocaps, Clack Factor and Bingecaps, they've left hundreds of dollars on the table collectively, and that's just me.


Don't exactly know why you feel people are being 'hand picked', but your information is incorrect. This isn't a full-time job for me, it's a hobby. I don't have time to pump out parts all day, every day. I wouldn't want that in any case. I do this for fun, and because people enjoy and appreciate my work. Just because you didn't get into a sale, doesn't give you the right to make assumptions about all the keycap makers on this forum. If you lack patience, then this hobby isn't for you. Because that's what it takes. There's limited parts because I can't make more, there's no conspiracy here (hue).

While I've seen Bro give caps to "Broless Bros" and due to several conversations with a few OG members, I do agree that that the illusion certain members get priority on sales is most likely false (many have pictures of collections not in their possessions or have been lurking a LONG time). I would still beg you to be a bit objective 'Bro'.

The man is admiring your work and is literally frustrated because he WANTS to support you but is forced to support a secondary market or re-seller. While I do not agree with some of his points, taking a humble approach to embrace a member who wants to be a collector which drives your business is not only best for the discussion, but best for the community. Even if I don't agree, I for one admire anyone who posts their genuine opinion instead of just 1 upping posts and brown nosing the top artisans. These are obviously genuine concerns and I can confirm (from others) he is not the only one who thinks there are people getting priority. If that is something you don't give a damn about, then so be it. I just don't think it's best to jump down the man's throat because he is voicing himself. Personally, I don't think anything he said was offensive.

ON TOPIC: I am not in favor of people copying original work and the only way I see a cap of an IP someone else already made a cap of being admissible is if it is done a different way. As for plain caps with color combinations, I think that is fair game but also on a case by case basis. Either way, it is still a heavily grey areas in my opinion.


Sorry, but how am I not being 'objective'? I was simply addressing his concerns with the actual facts. Please don't make assumptions about my supposed 'attitude' written in text form.

There is nothing assumptive about you using the words "conspiracy" and "you don't get the right to". Also, suggesting he doesn't have patience is quite the opposite of being objective.




Assumptions:
If that is something you don't give a damn about, then so be it.

jump down the man's throat

taking a humble approach


Your assumptions are that you feel I have an attitude about it, but just the opposite - I want to make it clear that he isn't correct, as well as offer information and insight as to why.

And it's absolutely about patience. If a person has the patience, then 'frustration' wouldn't come into play. There's only so many cap makers and caps to go around. And there are a lot more people that want them than we can provide for. I don't think you are getting that point here. In any case, I hope I gave enough info here for those who were concerned.

Exactly this. Patience is key. I went 12+ sales without ever getting in, then got in twice in 1 week. Anybody that thinks it's about anything other than luck (unless you're in a dibs sale) is a little ridiculous.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: OnTheBrink on Sat, 31 May 2014, 23:55:40
Caps take considerable time to make.  I typically spend anywhere from 45 minutes to 6 hours on a cap, depending on the resin or resins used.  You can help mitigate some of that time cost by making multiple molds, but production is always limited by time in artisan crafts.  Artisan craft, by its very definition, is going to be limited in production size since artisan crafts are a cottage industry.

In short, increasing production is difficult, can be costly, and, if you're not careful, can result in an excess of supply and a dearth of demand, meaning you effectively price yourself out of the market.

I'm a Financial Analyst by trade, I understand the basics of supply, demand and cost accounting. I'm not telling anyone how to go about their business, but they don't get to complain when other people step in to fill the void from the supply side. If their competitors products are that inferior, they have nothing to worry about. If they're not, you don't get to ***** that someone is selling caps to people when you refuse to produce more. I have literally a half dozen e-mails with lists of keycaps I wanted in sales, none of which were fulfilled. Between Brocaps, Clack Factor and Bingecaps, they've left hundreds of dollars on the table collectively, and that's just me.


Don't exactly know why you feel people are being 'hand picked', but your information is incorrect. This isn't a full-time job for me, it's a hobby. I don't have time to pump out parts all day, every day. I wouldn't want that in any case. I do this for fun, and because people enjoy and appreciate my work. Just because you didn't get into a sale, doesn't give you the right to make assumptions about all the keycap makers on this forum. If you lack patience, then this hobby isn't for you. Because that's what it takes. There's limited parts because I can't make more, there's no conspiracy here (hue).

While I've seen Bro give caps to "Broless Bros" and due to several conversations with a few OG members, I do agree that that the illusion certain members get priority on sales is most likely false (many have pictures of collections not in their possessions or have been lurking a LONG time). I would still beg you to be a bit objective 'Bro'.

The man is admiring your work and is literally frustrated because he WANTS to support you but is forced to support a secondary market or re-seller. While I do not agree with some of his points, taking a humble approach to embrace a member who wants to be a collector which drives your business is not only best for the discussion, but best for the community. Even if I don't agree, I for one admire anyone who posts their genuine opinion instead of just 1 upping posts and brown nosing the top artisans. These are obviously genuine concerns and I can confirm (from others) he is not the only one who thinks there are people getting priority. If that is something you don't give a damn about, then so be it. I just don't think it's best to jump down the man's throat because he is voicing himself. Personally, I don't think anything he said was offensive.

ON TOPIC: I am not in favor of people copying original work and the only way I see a cap of an IP someone else already made a cap of being admissible is if it is done a different way. As for plain caps with color combinations, I think that is fair game but also on a case by case basis. Either way, it is still a heavily grey areas in my opinion.


Sorry, but how am I not being 'objective'? I was simply addressing his concerns with the actual facts. Please don't make assumptions about my supposed 'attitude' written in text form.

There is nothing assumptive about you using the words "conspiracy" and "you don't get the right to". Also, suggesting he doesn't have patience is quite the opposite of being objective.




Assumptions:
If that is something you don't give a damn about, then so be it.

jump down the man's throat

taking a humble approach


Your assumptions are that you feel I have an attitude about it, but just the opposite - I want to make it clear that he isn't correct, as well as offer information and insight as to why.

And it's absolutely about patience. If a person has the patience, then 'frustration' wouldn't come into play. There's only so many cap makers and caps to go around. And there are a lot more people that want them than we can provide for. I don't think you are getting that point here. In any case, I hope I gave enough info here for those who were concerned.

You're right, I did sound a bit assumptive there and for that I apologize. I didn't mean to accuse you personally of anything and I actually agree with you. I thought I made that clear but rereading I can see where I was a bit patronizing and accusatory. What I meant by not jumping down his throat was that I felt he had good intentions and concerns even though they read differently as I use to feel a similar way before things were explained to me.

When I said "if it is something you don't give a damn about" I also was not trying to accuse you but meant generally.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Michael on Sat, 31 May 2014, 23:57:43


You're right, I did sound a bit assumptive there and for that I apologize. I didn't mean to accuse you personally of anything and I actually agree with you. I thought I made that clear but rereading I can see where I was a bit patronizing and accusatory. What I meant by not jumping down his throat was that I felt he had good intentions and concerns even though they read differently as I use to feel a similar way before things were explained to me.

When I said "if it is something you don't give a damn about" I also was not trying to accuse you but meant generally.


Believe me when I say, I wish I could do this:


(http://i.imgur.com/n6hbP8x.jpg)


Unfortunately, I cannot. But if you watch my artisan forum, you will see that I generally try to ensure that even after a sale, that people who didn't make it in get a shot at later sales and events. I do as much as I can to ensure as many can enjoy my stuff as possible.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: hwood34 on Sat, 31 May 2014, 23:59:50


You're right, I did sound a bit assumptive there and for that I apologize. I didn't mean to accuse you personally of anything and I actually agree with you. I thought I made that clear but rereading I can see where I was a bit patronizing and accusatory. What I meant by not jumping down his throat was that I felt he had good intentions and concerns even though they read differently as I use to feel a similar way before things were explained to me.

When I said "if it is something you don't give a damn about" I also was not trying to accuse you but meant generally.


Believe me when I say, I wish I could do this:


Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/n6hbP8x.jpg)

I mean...
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: anoxy on Sun, 01 June 2014, 00:06:44
I generally try to ensure that even after a sale, that people who didn't make it in get a shot at later sales and events. I do as much as I can to ensure as many can enjoy my stuff as possible.

So that means I automatically get a brocap next sale then since I sent my fauxluminum e-mail at 11:00 on the dot, right? Right.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: epzy on Sun, 01 June 2014, 00:09:51
I generally try to ensure that even after a sale, that people who didn't make it in get a shot at later sales and events. I do as much as I can to ensure as many can enjoy my stuff as possible.

So that means I automatically get a brocap next sale then since I sent my fauxluminum e-mail at 11:00 on the dot, right? Right.

(http://media.tumblr.com/6d403d2687cdc1c20d31fdb36ef6fe7c/tumblr_inline_mj411sAZqm1qz4rgp.gif)
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: OnTheBrink on Sun, 01 June 2014, 00:10:00


You're right, I did sound a bit assumptive there and for that I apologize. I didn't mean to accuse you personally of anything and I actually agree with you. I thought I made that clear but rereading I can see where I was a bit patronizing and accusatory. What I meant by not jumping down his throat was that I felt he had good intentions and concerns even though they read differently as I use to feel a similar way before things were explained to me.

When I said "if it is something you don't give a damn about" I also was not trying to accuse you but meant generally.


Believe me when I say, I wish I could do this:


Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/n6hbP8x.jpg)



Unfortunately, I cannot. But if you watch my artisan forum, you will see that I generally try to ensure that even after a sale, that people who didn't make it in get a shot at later sales and events. I do as much as I can to ensure as many can enjoy my stuff as possible.

Oh for sure. I've seen you give Bro's to "Broless Bros" quite a few times. But being a huge fan of your caps especially and still not having one, I can sympathize with the some of the frustration which is why I was quick to try and remind you how much we not only want your work but how much we want to support it as well. But that definitely all came out wrong.  :(

At the same time, the same way you want to give BroBots to everyone is kind of like how I want all the fans to know everything isn't as it seems and wish they could really realize how tough it is on the artisans too. Downright stressful I'm sure for you guys. It sure as hell made things easier for me and it helped me become A LOT more patient when it came to the hard to get stuff. It took me a really long time to get my first cap but IT DID happen.

But perhaps I am best letting people figure that out through you guys as I did, lol.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: bueller on Sun, 01 June 2014, 00:10:08
I generally try to ensure that even after a sale, that people who didn't make it in get a shot at later sales and events. I do as much as I can to ensure as many can enjoy my stuff as possible.

So that means I automatically get a brocap next sale then since I sent my fauxluminum e-mail at 11:00 on the dot, right? Right.

Yeah with that sort of an attitude I'm sure he'll help you right out. **** you're annoying.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: epzy on Sun, 01 June 2014, 00:12:27
I generally try to ensure that even after a sale, that people who didn't make it in get a shot at later sales and events. I do as much as I can to ensure as many can enjoy my stuff as possible.

So that means I automatically get a brocap next sale then since I sent my fauxluminum e-mail at 11:00 on the dot, right? Right.

Yeah with that sort of an attitude I'm sure he'll help you right out. **** you're annoying.

(http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111144451/3797528-4675330164-tumbl.gif)
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: anoxy on Sun, 01 June 2014, 00:14:48

Yeah with that sort of an attitude I'm sure he'll help you right out. **** you're annoying.
(http://i.imgur.com/IQPqI.gif)
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Michael on Sun, 01 June 2014, 00:16:55
I generally try to ensure that even after a sale, that people who didn't make it in get a shot at later sales and events. I do as much as I can to ensure as many can enjoy my stuff as possible.

So that means I automatically get a brocap next sale then since I sent my fauxluminum e-mail at 11:00 on the dot, right? Right.

Yeah with that sort of an attitude I'm sure he'll help you right out. **** you're annoying.

Show Image
(http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111144451/3797528-4675330164-tumbl.gif)



I guess I must have missed a post (http://i.imgur.com/t8aCpm0.png) here?
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: bueller on Sun, 01 June 2014, 00:18:11
I generally try to ensure that even after a sale, that people who didn't make it in get a shot at later sales and events. I do as much as I can to ensure as many can enjoy my stuff as possible.

So that means I automatically get a brocap next sale then since I sent my fauxluminum e-mail at 11:00 on the dot, right? Right.

Yeah with that sort of an attitude I'm sure he'll help you right out. **** you're annoying.

Show Image
(http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111144451/3797528-4675330164-tumbl.gif)



I guess I must have missed a post (http://i.imgur.com/t8aCpm0.png) here?

LOL  :thumb:
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: epzy on Sun, 01 June 2014, 00:18:26
I generally try to ensure that even after a sale, that people who didn't make it in get a shot at later sales and events. I do as much as I can to ensure as many can enjoy my stuff as possible.

So that means I automatically get a brocap next sale then since I sent my fauxluminum e-mail at 11:00 on the dot, right? Right.

Yeah with that sort of an attitude I'm sure he'll help you right out. **** you're annoying.

Show Image
(http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111144451/3797528-4675330164-tumbl.gif)



I guess I must have missed a post (http://i.imgur.com/t8aCpm0.png) here?

Yeah, you must have. xD
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: anoxy on Sun, 01 June 2014, 00:20:24
inb4 everyone quotes Bro Caps and buries their nose in his ass

edit: damn, too late
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: epzy on Sun, 01 June 2014, 00:21:11
inb4 everyone quotes Bro Caps and buries their nose in his ass

edit: damn, too late

(http://i.imgur.com/IQPqI.gif)
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: bueller on Sun, 01 June 2014, 00:21:27
inb4 everyone quotes Bro Caps and buries their nose in his ass

edit: damn, too late

You're a special kind of stupid.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: anoxy on Sun, 01 June 2014, 00:23:16
inb4 everyone quotes Bro Caps and buries their nose in his ass

edit: damn, too late

You're a special kind of stupid.
lol says the dude who thought I was actually serious about getting a spot in the next sale. How dense are you though?
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: anoxy on Sun, 01 June 2014, 00:24:23
The circlejerk over this dude is hilarious. Every time he makes a post, all of you immediately quote him as quick as you can to laugh at his jokes or agree with his pompous asshattery.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Michael on Sun, 01 June 2014, 00:25:25
The circlejerk over this dude is hilarious. Every time he makes a post, all of you immediately quote him as quick as you can to laugh at his jokes or agree with his pompous asshattery.


(http://i.imgur.com/otskSuK.gif)
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: bueller on Sun, 01 June 2014, 00:25:46
Congrats anoxy, you're one of only 3 people annoying enough to make my ignore list on GH.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: anoxy on Sun, 01 June 2014, 00:26:22
OMG guys he un-ignored me!!1 haha Bro Caps you are so funny :thumb: that's a thumb in your butt btw ;)

Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: epzy on Sun, 01 June 2014, 00:27:41
Nah, he just pressed the button to show your message.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Michael on Sun, 01 June 2014, 00:29:07
anoxy's jimmies status:  ☑ Rustled ☐ Unrustled
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: anoxy on Sun, 01 June 2014, 00:29:24
Congrats anoxy, you're one of only 3 people annoying enough to make my ignore list on GH.
Congrats, you're so little that you felt the need to announce that you ignored somebody on a forum. So brave and resolute.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Michael on Sun, 01 June 2014, 00:30:52

Congrats, you're so little that you felt the need to announce that you ignored somebody on a forum. So brave and resolute.


(http://i.imgur.com/1Auof.gif)
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: anoxy on Sun, 01 June 2014, 00:34:27
The only thing rustling my jimmies is this massive boner from getting Bro Caps to show his true colors.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Michael on Sun, 01 June 2014, 00:35:08
The only thing rustling my jimmies is this massive boner from getting Bro Caps to show his true colors.


(http://i.imgur.com/JIY5h.jpg)
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: anoxy on Sun, 01 June 2014, 00:35:10
Reminds me of Pacifist
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: anoxy on Sun, 01 June 2014, 00:36:48
The only thing rustling my jimmies is this massive boner from getting Bro Caps to show his true colors.


Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/JIY5h.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/Q7UdRmq.jpg)
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: anoxy on Sun, 01 June 2014, 00:37:07
Except for dat boner doe
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: anoxy on Sun, 01 June 2014, 00:38:43
Damnit man, I was watching game of thrones but now THE Bro Caps is quoting me. This is such a momentous occasion will you sign my Pac-cap?
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: anoxy on Sun, 01 June 2014, 00:39:54
Ah come on, where did all the brown nosers go? This is boring, I'm going back to Game of Thrones.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Michael on Sun, 01 June 2014, 00:42:04
(http://i.imgur.com/oib5nQg.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/1Auof.gif)
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Beca on Sun, 01 June 2014, 00:45:24
soooo, about dem keycaps...
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Michael on Sun, 01 June 2014, 00:46:35
soooo, about dem keycaps...


Sorry, I guess I got caught up in babysitting. :(
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: hashbaz on Sun, 01 June 2014, 00:59:53
Play nice guys.

(http://www.gifsforum.com/images/image/Rustled%20my%20Jimmies/grand/83f.jpg)
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: rowdy on Sun, 01 June 2014, 01:11:47
5 posts in a row seems a little beyond the mere rustling stage.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: epzy on Sun, 01 June 2014, 01:12:33
5 posts in a row seems a little beyond the mere rustling stage.

 :))
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: anoxy on Sun, 01 June 2014, 01:21:36
(http://i.imgur.com/dc78P.gif)
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: anoxy on Sun, 01 June 2014, 01:29:32
Everyone must be asleep. I'll be back tomorrow night.

(http://i.imgur.com/antqm.gif)
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: nubbinator on Sun, 01 June 2014, 01:36:52
My face when reading the last couple of pages of this thread:

(http://i.imgur.com/sQK4oGW.jpg)

Everyone must be asleep. I'll be back tomorrow night.

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/antqm.gif)


(http://i.imgur.com/RzxSA5P.gif)
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Zeal on Sun, 01 June 2014, 01:43:08
I was wondering how I missed so many posts in such a short amount of time, then I realized it was the same person quintuple posting...

This thread has also become a rustled jimmies gif thread. :))
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: lightsout714 on Sun, 01 June 2014, 01:56:04
The only thing rustling my jimmies is this massive boner from getting Bro Caps to show his true colors.


Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/JIY5h.jpg)

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/Q7UdRmq.jpg)


I lol'd.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: tbc on Sun, 01 June 2014, 02:45:34
5 posts in a row seems a little beyond the mere rustling stage.

he's from reddit.  he thinks karma is a number rather the sum of your most recent actions.

EDIT:

that is how karma works on reddit right?
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: cphead on Sun, 01 June 2014, 02:53:42
5 posts in a row seems a little beyond the mere rustling stage.

he's from reddit.  he thinks karma is a number rather the sum of your most recent actions.

EDIT:

that is how karma works on reddit right?

Well, one post can have more karma than five posts, depending on how many people upvote it. Not sure what your edit means cause you didn't outline how you think karma works on reddit. Yes it is a number. And what does reddit have to do with this ...
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: tbc on Sun, 01 June 2014, 03:15:05
? ? ? ?

reason for mentioning reddit:  he's from reddit.  reddit has karma.

geekhack does not have karma [points].

a negative karma on reddit comes from posting stuff/comments people don't like (excessive negative remarks, links to bad sites/images, etc.).

a negative karma on gh is impossible because geekhack doesn't have karma points at all (karma != warning points).

therefore, it is okay to do bad things.

WRONG!  gh doesn't have karma points, but it DOES have the concept of karma.  that is to say: people will remember all the bad things you do and treat you the way you treated them without the aid of having a karma number in your personal profile.

EDIT:

now that i think about it, are you trying to say that he's not from reddit?  i swear i saw him post that he was.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: baldgye on Sun, 01 June 2014, 03:46:47
Amazing thread. I think this is has also been the best use of Brocaps's gif archive.

To be fair though on the subject of copy carts, the market does a good job of controlling them for now. I mean out of all the people making caps the top three most desired are all making there own designs, Binge, ClickClack and Brocaps...
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Fire Brand on Sun, 01 June 2014, 10:14:32
I think this may of just devolved into people complaining at each other now, I think this thread may of run its course if this is what's happening now, keep it clean people :x
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Moosecraft on Sun, 01 June 2014, 10:32:57
 I can't believe the lengths people go to when it comes to copying designs and rambling about supply/demand but this definitely has some extreme Rustling going all over this thread.

10/10 would read this thread again  :thumb:

Seriously though: be original and stay positive all you fancy schmancy cap makers, even though I don't collect novelty/artisan caps at all hardly these threads are what keep me coming back here.

Rustle Away :D
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: anoxy on Sun, 01 June 2014, 14:24:53

Amazing thread. I think this is has also been the best use of Brocaps's gif archive.
Gif archive? The dude used like two different gorilla munch gifs....what an internet mlgpro.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: anoxy on Sun, 01 June 2014, 14:27:35

? ? ? ?

reason for mentioning reddit:  he's from reddit.  reddit has karma.

geekhack does not have karma [points].

a negative karma on reddit comes from posting stuff/comments people don't like (excessive negative remarks, links to bad sites/images, etc.).

a negative karma on gh is impossible because geekhack doesn't have karma points at all (karma != warning points).

therefore, it is okay to do bad things.

WRONG!  gh doesn't have karma points, but it DOES have the concept of karma.  that is to say: people will remember all the bad things you do and treat you the way you treated them without the aid of having a karma number in your personal profile.

EDIT:

now that i think about it, are you trying to say that he's not from reddit?  i swear i saw him post that he was.

What the...I don't even. You say this like I was conceived from the womb of reddit and half the dweebs here don't also post there. You sound like my grandma trying to analyze karma.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Sun, 01 June 2014, 15:20:27
Hey, this thread looks fun!  Never seen a quintuple post before, so that's neat. 
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: tbc on Sun, 01 June 2014, 15:39:56

? ? ? ?

I was conceived from the womb of reddit

i KNOW.  that's why i brought it up.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: lightsout714 on Sun, 01 June 2014, 17:16:39
Hey, this thread looks fun!  Never seen a quintuple post before, so that's neat. 

Shooting for a record maybe?
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: rowdy on Sun, 01 June 2014, 22:47:42
Hey, this thread looks fun!  Never seen a quintuple post before, so that's neat. 

Can't blame that one on Tapatalk ;)
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: domoaligato on Mon, 02 June 2014, 00:03:51
Gif archive? The dude used like two different gorilla munch gifs....what an internet mlgpro.

ripster?
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Quardah on Mon, 02 June 2014, 07:39:45
Hey, this thread looks fun!  Never seen a quintuple post before, so that's neat.

Global Mod, please smite the cancer out of this thread!

You can still save it! It's not too late!


It's still breathing.... barely.... it needs mods magic!
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: baldgye on Mon, 02 June 2014, 09:16:26
Hey, this thread looks fun!  Never seen a quintuple post before, so that's neat.

Global Mod, please smite the cancer out of this thread!

You can still save it! It's not too late!


It's still breathing.... barely.... it needs mods magic!

It's too deep, I'm sorry Sir.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: bueller on Mon, 02 June 2014, 09:21:40
Hey, this thread looks fun!  Never seen a quintuple post before, so that's neat.

Global Mod, please smite the cancer out of this thread!

You can still save it! It's not too late!


It's still breathing.... barely.... it needs mods magic!

It's too deep, I'm sorry Sir.

(http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/thats-what-she-said.gif)
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: RESPRiT on Mon, 02 June 2014, 11:28:04
I was gone from GH for a while and while catching up I found this thread...

The first few pages are juicy-

(http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11113/111130441/3399728-tumblr_mghc4yyxak1ry10fwo1_400.gif)
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Candyflip on Mon, 02 June 2014, 11:29:44
I was away for some time too, but reading the whole thread just now and I must say this is gold  :))
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: hashbaz on Mon, 02 June 2014, 12:11:55
We should put a link to this thread on the main page to help rekindle the passion of inactive members. :D
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: RESPRiT on Mon, 02 June 2014, 12:17:55
Yeah, I know right? I mean that quintuple post? That's some crazy stuff right there!
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: Quardah on Mon, 02 June 2014, 13:26:19
Now please don't fuel their stupidity, aka don't feed the trolls.

This thread turned into a disgrace to the forum. Even if this thread had a little "finger pointing" going on since its subject's a touchy one, i seriously think it's time to stop.

If you wanna ball-hard troll the **** out of the internet go on 4chan or some other random ****ty websites. You're not 12 years old, you should know insulting strangers on the internet does nothing more than thread-crap over and over again.

No one cares about you defending your stupid ego­.

May those idiots thank God i'm not a mod myself.

Now stop.
Title: Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Mon, 02 June 2014, 13:38:21
Now please don't fuel their stupidity, aka don't feed the trolls.

This thread turned into a disgrace to the forum. Even if this thread had a little "finger pointing" going on since its subject's a touchy one, i seriously think it's time to stop.

If you wanna ball-hard troll the **** out of the internet go on 4chan or some other random ****ty websites. You're not 12 years old, you should know insulting strangers on the internet does nothing more than thread-crap over and over again.

No one cares about you defending your stupid ego­.

May those idiots thank God i'm not a mod myself.

Now stop.

Bro what are you even talking about?


Anyway it's obvious some people just want caps, any caps, to throw money at so I guess people can speak with their wallets. (Note to all you potential copycapers throw down those caps plenty of buyers who don't care where/what/how you do your thing but make sure and charge plenty though, give people what they want and rustle some jimmies in the process.)

Just remember folks karma/fate whatever will bite you some day so think about what you are doing out there.

I'm closing this thread for good if someone thinks more discussion is needed start your own thread.