How do you feel about 'copycaps'?

[sth]

you guys... it's ****ing plastic

if you care so much then stop pointing fingers and hem-hawwing about mass-production copyright laws that were created by and are designed to favor giant companies.

stop spending so much money on it if you want to curb the stupidity that inevitably cascades upon us once aftermarkets are created

stop pointing fingers at people for doing whatever they ****ing want in their spare time

stop making **** quality caps with no originality or attention to detail and then selling them at profit

stop 'hyping' your doodads and having 'exclusive' sales

"There are no art forms now, just capitalism"

[sth]

PS: inb4 "you can't control supply and demand/markets are markets/but econ 101" argument comes from the very same people who tell others the only way to remove power from corporations is to 'vote with your wallet'

[Pacifist]

So its okay to steal copyrighted ideas and use them on keycaps as long as you are the first to do it?

So
Click clack (Vader)
Bro Caps (V1, Skeletor)
Nubbinator (Clone Trooper)
IMSTO (Hellboy, Attack on Titan)
girlDC (Vader, Trooper, Marine)
Piraterice (Hulk, Heisenberg)
Cherpalla (Mario Star)
RaVNzCRoFT (3D prints)
Just to name a few
Are all in the clear?

The whole reason why I started making these caps was because there was a dearth of caps in which you could pick the specific color you want and get it. The only thing close are hypnocaps. In addition, there is a dearth of affordable resin caps that you can just order whenever you want and not worry about ordering in the first millisecond or get hand picked. All the handmade resin caps, if not sold out in the first second, sell out by the end of the hour at the very worst. Even if you look at the metal caps and say those take a while to hit MOQ, those caps cost way more than resin and take way more time to produce. And even with feng's resin buy, there was a big selection but permutations of colors were already preset.
 
Onto the comparison between my trooper cap and nubbinator's: While they are quite similar, BOTH caps feature aspects of caps previously made (there are a lot of aspects of all caps that make them look very good and that many cap makers, after putting lots of time into caps, realize). And while nubbinator's cap did have some influence on my cap, I also gained a lot of influence looking at gas masks, bro bots, and binge caps, to name a few. And going into fine detail, my cap is not the exact same as nubbinator's. While they both are from star wars and feature a trooper head on top of a keycap, the similarities end there. First, I used a stormtrooper, while nubbinator used a different trooper. In addition, like nubbinator himself said, the angle of the trooper heads are different. While yes, nubbinator's cap influenced me, so did pretty much every single other cap ever made.

So what happens? I try to offer a service that is unique--the chance to buy a resin cap in the specific color you want--and I get shot down for doing something that apparently is bad, yet 1. People have been doing similar things before and 2. just showing a picture of a cap I made while experimenting with different colors and showing it to everybody? Just to let everybody know, I am working on my own original sculptured caps, and these star wars themed caps were mainly to 1. See how more complicated designs need to be molded and 2. Fund a pressure pot so I can make even better caps for everybody.

Sheesh, no wonder there are no services like mine. I try to give back to the community and get stabbed in the back for it.

[keymaster]

So its okay to steal copyrighted ideas and use them on keycaps as long as you are the first to do it?

So
Click clack (Vader)
Bro Caps (V1, Skeletor)
Nubbinator (Clone Trooper)
IMSTO (Hellboy, Attack on Titan)
girlDC (Vader, Trooper, Marine)
Piraterice (Hulk, Heisenberg)
Cherpalla (Mario Star)
RaVNzCRoFT (3D prints)
Just to name a few
Are all in the clear?

The whole reason why I started making these caps was because there was a dearth of caps in which you could pick the specific color you want and get it. The only thing close are hypnocaps. In addition, there is a dearth of affordable resin caps that you can just order whenever you want and not worry about ordering in the first millisecond or get hand picked. All the handmade resin caps, if not sold out in the first second, sell out by the end of the hour at the very worst. Even if you look at the metal caps and say those take a while to hit MOQ, those caps cost way more than resin and take way more time to produce. And even with feng's resin buy, there was a big selection but permutations of colors were already preset.
 
Onto the comparison between my trooper cap and nubbinator's: While they are quite similar, BOTH caps feature aspects of caps previously made (there are a lot of aspects of all caps that make them look very good and that many cap makers, after putting lots of time into caps, realize). And while nubbinator's cap did have some influence on my cap, I also gained a lot of influence looking at gas masks, bro bots, and binge caps, to name a few. And going into fine detail, my cap is not the exact same as nubbinator's. While they both are from star wars and feature a trooper head on top of a keycap, the similarities end there. First, I used a stormtrooper, while nubbinator used a different trooper. In addition, like nubbinator himself said, the angle of the trooper heads are different. While yes, nubbinator's cap influenced me, so did pretty much every single other cap ever made.

So what happens? I try to offer a service that is unique--the chance to buy a resin cap in the specific color you want--and I get shot down for doing something that apparently is bad, yet 1. People have been doing similar things before and 2. just showing a picture of a cap I made while experimenting with different colors and showing it to everybody? Just to let everybody know, I am working on my own original sculptured caps, and these star wars themed caps were mainly to 1. See how more complicated designs need to be molded and 2. Fund a pressure pot so I can make even better caps for everybody.

Sheesh, no wonder there are no services like mine. I try to give back to the community and get stabbed in the back for it.

It seems like it's more of a personal issue people have with you rather than anything else.

Like you pointed out, most of the keycap vendors have copied copyrighted designs (some continue to do so). The only difference I see here is that you're copying or taking inspiration from the works of other vendors, who themselves copied original designs. It's hypocritical, in my opinion, for them to be this upset.

Personally, I don't think it's such a big deal that you're doing this since you're mostly replicating copyrighted designs that don't belong to keycap vendors. However, people who design original material like Binge would be hurt by knowing their OWN original designs are being replicated.  To me, it's different when copyright infringement is done to an individual rather than a big corporation. I think we can agree that these are drastically different degrees of infringement. The former is more personal and immediate while the latter is distant and unharmed.

[Quardah]

you guys... it's ****ing plastic

if you care so much then stop pointing fingers and hem-hawwing about mass-production copyright laws that were created by and are designed to favor giant companies.

stop spending so much money on it if you want to curb the stupidity that inevitably cascades upon us once aftermarkets are created

stop pointing fingers at people for doing whatever they ****ing want in their spare time

stop making **** quality caps with no originality or attention to detail and then selling them at profit

stop 'hyping' your doodads and having 'exclusive' sales

"There are no art forms now, just capitalism"

Wisdom.

Get a nice keycap set for your board if you want to revitalise it. Give it a look, add some novelties if you want. Make them if you want.

But really, who really cares?

If there's a demand for a specific item and its crafter doesn't meet up the demand, is it wrong for a next crafter to respond to that demand by doing the same thing?

Aka you gotta choose between the corporate point of view and the enthousiasts point of view.
Copyrights infringments versus people not getting what they want for some lack of will.

I'd rather see enthousiasts get what they want. Don't forget that before being a business, it's a hobby.

[Binge]

So its okay to steal copyrighted ideas and use them on keycaps as long as you are the first to do it?

So
Click clack (Vader)
Bro Caps (V1, Skeletor)
Nubbinator (Clone Trooper)
IMSTO (Hellboy, Attack on Titan)
girlDC (Vader, Trooper, Marine)
Piraterice (Hulk, Heisenberg)
Cherpalla (Mario Star)
RaVNzCRoFT (3D prints)
Just to name a few
Are all in the clear?

In my book not all of the above are in the right.  All of those cases are also not the same.  With regard to Brocaps Skeletor he made an artistic rendering, and GirlDC hand sculpts all of those figures.  Not everyone in your list is making direct copies of an existing figure.  And if you see a type of hypocrisy are you going to say it's ok or will you rise above it and become unquestionable in your own right?

and these star wars themed caps were mainly to 1. See how more complicated designs need to be molded and 2. Fund a pressure pot so I can make even better caps for everybody.

Sheesh, no wonder there are no services like mine. I try to give back to the community and get stabbed in the back for it.

This is a legit series of questions and not a personal stab at you sir Pac.  I simply want to understand.

 1.  How are you giving back to the community and why are you using those terms instead of say "supplying material demand for personal profit?" 

2.  Why do you believe it is right to copy trademarked goods to be able to afford a pressure system for making better caps? 

3.  Why do you believe it is right to produce inferior keys (you admit you do not have the tools like a pressure system) with enough profit margin to afford expensive manufacturing tools? 

4.  Reflecting on the previous questions and your answers do you believe you are giving back to the community or using the community to afford tools, and if you do believe you are giving back to the community what is the value that geekwhackers, as you call them in other message boards, should expect from you for what you are charging?

[baldgye]

Am I the only guy who when they 1st saw the Vader CC thought it was a modded Lego head?

[Pacifist]

Holy ****ing ****, **** everybody here trying to make a morality argument that is obviously extremely biased against me for some ****ing reason and hypocritical.

I'm not going to waste my time trying to defend myself from an obviously biased community.

I haven't even sold one of my caps yet for money, and nobody else has even touched them.

I will continue to do my work and sell them, regardless of what everybody thinks. If you don't like what I'm doing, then please **** off and mind your own business. There's always the option to ignore somebody.

To the people who actually want my caps: I will continue to make these for only the people who appreciate the countless hours I have put into cap making and developing my learning of casting.

[Quardah]

lolwut

Didn't realise this thread was a circlejerk against you homie.

But i support you, do whatever the **** you want lol.

**** the system.

[Binge]

Holy ****ing ****, **** everybody here trying to make a morality argument that is obviously extremely biased against me for some ****ing reason and hypocritical.

I'm not going to waste my time trying to defend myself from an obviously biased community.

I haven't even sold one of my caps yet for money, and nobody else has even touched them.

I will continue to do my work and sell them, regardless of what everybody thinks. If you don't like what I'm doing, then please **** off and mind your own business. There's always the option to ignore somebody.

To the people who actually want my caps: I will continue to make these for only the people who appreciate the countless hours I have put into cap making and developing my learning of casting.

Seeing as that explosion happened right after I asked some questions you could have easily answered to satisfied me (a collector of keycaps) I will assume you think I'm a hypocrite and that you've blocked me.  Good day sir.  I will be in my hut if you want to talk about it.

[Pacifist]

and these star wars themed caps were mainly to 1. See how more complicated designs need to be molded and 2. Fund a pressure pot so I can make even better caps for everybody.

Sheesh, no wonder there are no services like mine. I try to give back to the community and get stabbed in the back for it.

This is a legit series of questions and not a personal stab at you sir Pac.  I simply want to understand.

 1.  How are you giving back to the community and why are you using those terms instead of say "supplying material demand for personal profit?" 

2.  Why do you believe it is right to copy trademarked goods to be able to afford a pressure system for making better caps? 

3.  Why do you believe it is right to produce inferior keys (you admit you do not have the tools like a pressure system) with enough profit margin to afford expensive manufacturing tools? 

4.  Reflecting on the previous questions and your answers do you believe you are giving back to the community or using the community to afford tools, and if you do believe you are giving back to the community what is the value that geekwhackers, as you call them in other message boards, should expect from you for what you are charging?

Only because you want to understand

1. First, supplying caps is in itself giving back to the community. Keycaps have become an integral part of keyboard enthusiasts, and I'm sure you're fully aware of that as a fellow keycap maker. At this point I haven't even made a single penny off of the many hours I've spent since late November of last year. Making keycaps is a hobby for me. What money I have has gone towards buying more materials and tools to supply the community with caps. At this point, I've spent around $100 in pure cash on cap making, and still am lacking some integral components, some of which I have made up for with some clever methods that I have not seen before.

2. My reasoning behind making these trooper caps was just a quick way of funding a $300 pressure pot, plus $100 in heating mats and $75 in new molds and resins that I plan to purchase later. Of course I can't make all that off of selling caps, imitations or not, and I will use my own money to fund those. I thought, its a WIN WIN situation. I get my funding, and people get caps that they like. Having spent quite a lot of time looking at caps, I saw that hey TAKING COPYRIGHTED DESIGNS IS NOT ONLY PERCEIVED AS OKAY BUT ALSO QUITE SUPPORTED BY THE COMMUNITY (which after this whole fiasco I guess isn't okay ). Vader caps are one of the most hyped up click clacks, and when the auction for nubbinator's trooper cap to raise money for GH happened, it got $185, for caps that, as nubbinator himself has said, were early makes and were of low quality. And let me ask you, why do you copy ideas too? Your snorlax may be all handmade, but it is obviously a copy of a character trademarked by whoever owns pokemon. Your keythuli and slowfi, while not trademarked, are based on pretty popular things on the internet and are not your own original ideas.

3. Everybody's got to start somewhere. I have made tons of caps that have bubbles in them. Those have never been photographed and will never be. They will never be sold unless I decide to sell only the structurally stable ones in a grab bag. Let me tell you a little about my capmaking experience. I started off with Bubbles everywhere. Slowly I figured out how to cast, and if you look at some of my caps, there is literally one visible bubble, on the inside bottom of the cap. The caps I will sell will only have bubbles in places not noticeable. I have developed a way (through doubleshots) to get rid of bubbles without the aid of fancy equipment. While yes, they are inferior to caps made with expensive equipment, they are still pretty good. I haven't even come out with official pricing of my caps, but trust me, I won't be looking for big profit margins. My plan is to make a ton of caps. This way I make say $1 times 50 instead of $5 times 20 and instead of 20 people getting the 20 caps, 50 people get caps, which only spreads the love, which is my way of giving back to the community.

4. I believe I am giving back to the community and funding my tools at the same time. People get the caps they want and I get the tools to supply them with more caps. Like I said, I'm doing low profit margins with lots of caps, which IMO is the best way to not only fund my tools but also let everybody who wants a cap to get a cap. Its Win Win, and if you don't like my system, you are fully welcome to make your own caps your own way.

[Pacifist]

Holy ****ing ****, **** everybody here trying to make a morality argument that is obviously extremely biased against me for some ****ing reason and hypocritical.

I'm not going to waste my time trying to defend myself from an obviously biased community.

I haven't even sold one of my caps yet for money, and nobody else has even touched them.

I will continue to do my work and sell them, regardless of what everybody thinks. If you don't like what I'm doing, then please **** off and mind your own business. There's always the option to ignore somebody.

To the people who actually want my caps: I will continue to make these for only the people who appreciate the countless hours I have put into cap making and developing my learning of casting.

Seeing as that explosion happened right after I asked some questions you could have easily answered to satisfied me (a collector of keycaps) I will assume you think I'm a hypocrite and that you've blocked me.  Good day sir.  I will be in my hut if you want to talk about it.

That explosion happened yesterday and I only posted it today. I did not even have a chance to read your reply in the thread until after I posted it, and I did not read this reply until now because I just spent 20 minutes typing up a reply to your questions to help you understand.

[baldgye]

First, supplying caps is in itself giving back to the community.

It is?

[Krogenar]

you guys... it's ****ing plastic

I make custom flags for a living, and I've had people say (when they hear my prices for my work): "It's just ****ing fabric!"
True, flags are made of fabric but so are wedding dresses and parachutes. There's labor, there's love in these little chunks of plastic for the artists and hobbyists. I agree with the spirit of what you're saying, sth -- I tire of the butthurtedness, too.

"There are no art forms now, just capitalism"

Wisdom.

 

Pac makes pretty good case about all the artisans (with Binge being the exception) to making keycaps based on intellectual property that they do not own. I don't really buy the argument that at least some of these people (GirlDC as the most prominent example) possess greater skill and/or talent, and so that somehow makes their infringement of other people's property rights some how less? It clearly makes them more artistic, more skilled, no argument there, but it's still not legal.

Some of the people on that list aren't in it for their 'art' -- not that I care, I don't buy into the whole selfless artist stuff. They looked at the market and said, "Hey, anyone want a Hulk keycap?" (People screamed, "Yissss!") and then they made them. Artists (good artists as defined by the market) should produce art and be well-fed and housed for their work and not smell at all like patchouli. But that's not the same as an artist who uses his or her skill to engrave a printing plate so they can counterfeit $100 bills. Do I respect that person's skill? Yes. But is what they're doing right? No, not really. And the fact that they're doing it to a big corporation instead of an individual, to me, is irrelevant.

And hey, I'm totally guilty of buying these things! So, pin a Crimson 'H' on my lapel. I have a Space Invaders keycap! I'm a hypocrite and I'm ashamed. (looks at Space Invaders keycap and fights back tears) Ok, I'm a little bit ashamed -- enough to not pretend I'm right.

Sheesh, no wonder there are no services like mine. I try to give back to the community and get stabbed in the back for it.

Toughen up buddy, you're an artist. Just do me a favor and don't strike a messianic pose -- just make good stuff that people want and don't pretend to be an artist if you actually aren't. I (seriously) wouldn't think any less of you. And go ahead and make some money in the process, Pac, I'm all for it.

Also, I speak from some experience at being a failed artist -- well, not really an artist. Is flocking a keycap artistic? The closest I came was mixing two colors of flock to make a new color, so... I mixed two colors and now I'm an artist. LOL! And the keycaps that results started out really, REALLY lacking. It took time for them to improve. There was still no market for them, but I was having fun making them. For me, the thrill was in making something -- anything, really, that was new, even if only in a minor way. If they had sold, and been popular that would have been icing on the cake. My point is that people can be artistic (Krog pushes two fingerpaint colors together and revels in his raw talent) and they can want financial success -- because people express their love for art sometimes with money, and money ain't so bad. As it was, I nearly begged people to try out my stuff, LOL!

Anyway, since GH is to intellectual property rights what the Wild West was to gun safety, let's just all agree to be less butthurt and continue making stuff for all sorts of reasons.

[Pacifist]

you guys... it's ****ing plastic

I make custom flags for a living, and I've had people say (when they hear my prices for my work): "It's just ****ing fabric!"
True, flags are made of fabric but so are wedding dresses and parachutes. There's labor, there's love in these little chunks of plastic for the artists and hobbyists. I agree with the spirit of what you're saying, sth -- I tire of the butthurtedness, too.

"There are no art forms now, just capitalism"

Wisdom.

 

Pac makes pretty good case about all the artisans (with Binge being the exception) to making keycaps based on intellectual property that they do not own. I don't really buy the argument that at least some of these people (GirlDC as the most prominent example) possess greater skill and/or talent, and so that somehow makes their infringement of other people's property rights some how less? It clearly makes them more artistic, more skilled, no argument there, but it's still not legal.

Some of the people on that list aren't in it for their 'art' -- not that I care, I don't buy into the whole selfless artist stuff. They looked at the market and said, "Hey, anyone want a Hulk keycap?" (People screamed, "Yissss!") and then they made them. Artists (good artists as defined by the market) should produce art and be well-fed and housed for their work and not smell at all like patchouli. But that's not the same as an artist who uses his or her skill to engrave a printing plate so they can print $100 bills. Do I respect that person's skill? Yes. But is what they're doing right? No.

And hey, I'm totally guilty of buying these things! So, pin a Crimson 'H' on my lapel. I have a Space Invaders keycap! I'm a hypocrite and I'm ashamed. (looks at Space Invaders keycap and fights back tears)

Sheesh, no wonder there are no services like mine. I try to give back to the community and get stabbed in the back for it.

Toughen up buddy, you're an artist. Just do me a favor and don't strike a messianic pose -- just make good stuff that people want and don't pretend to be an artist if you actually aren't. I (seriously) wouldn't think any less of you. And go ahead and make some money in the process, Pac, I'm all for it.

Also, I speak from some experience at being a failed artist -- well, not really an artist. Is flocking a keycap artistic? The closest I came was mixing two colors of flock to make a new color, so... I mixed two colors and now I'm an artist. LOL! And the keycaps that results started out really, REALLY lacking. It took time for them to improve. There was still no market for them, but I was having fun making them. For me, the thrill was in making something -- anything, really, that was new, even if only in a minor way. If they had sold, and been popular that would have been icing on the cake. My point is that people can be artistic (Krog pushes two fingerpaint colors together and revels in his raw talent) and they can want financial success -- because people express their love for art sometimes with money, and money ain't so bad. As it was, I nearly begged people to try out my stuff, LOL!

Anyway, since GH is to intellectual property rights what the Wild West was to gun safety, let's just all agree to be less butthurt and continue making stuff for all sorts of reasons.

Thank you for your reply. I don't really consider myself an artist, but I have fallen in love with what resin casting can do, and I am going to take a sculpting class next year to learn more about art and have some more time to make caps.

[sth]

you guys... it's ****ing plastic

I make custom flags for a living, and I've had people say (when they hear my prices for my work): "It's just ****ing fabric!"
True, flags are made of fabric but so are wedding dresses and parachutes. There's labor, there's love in these little chunks of plastic for the artists and hobbyists. I agree with the spirit of what you're saying, sth -- I tire of the butthurtedness, too.

"There are no art forms now, just capitalism"

Wisdom.

 

Pac makes pretty good case about all the artisans (with Binge being the exception) to making keycaps based on intellectual property that they do not own. I don't really buy the argument that at least some of these people (GirlDC as the most prominent example) possess greater skill and/or talent, and so that somehow makes their infringement of other people's property rights some how less? It clearly makes them more artistic, more skilled, no argument there, but it's still not legal.

Some of the people on that list aren't in it for their 'art' -- not that I care, I don't buy into the whole selfless artist stuff. They looked at the market and said, "Hey, anyone want a Hulk keycap?" (People screamed, "Yissss!") and then they made them. Artists (good artists as defined by the market) should produce art and be well-fed and housed for their work and not smell at all like patchouli. But that's not the same as an artist who uses his or her skill to engrave a printing plate so they can counterfeit $100 bills. Do I respect that person's skill? Yes. But is what they're doing right? No, not really. And the fact that they're doing it to a big corporation instead of an individual, to me, is irrelevant.

And hey, I'm totally guilty of buying these things! So, pin a Crimson 'H' on my lapel. I have a Space Invaders keycap! I'm a hypocrite and I'm ashamed. (looks at Space Invaders keycap and fights back tears) Ok, I'm a little bit ashamed -- enough to not pretend I'm right.

Sheesh, no wonder there are no services like mine. I try to give back to the community and get stabbed in the back for it.

Toughen up buddy, you're an artist. Just do me a favor and don't strike a messianic pose -- just make good stuff that people want and don't pretend to be an artist if you actually aren't. I (seriously) wouldn't think any less of you. And go ahead and make some money in the process, Pac, I'm all for it.

Also, I speak from some experience at being a failed artist -- well, not really an artist. Is flocking a keycap artistic? The closest I came was mixing two colors of flock to make a new color, so... I mixed two colors and now I'm an artist. LOL! And the keycaps that results started out really, REALLY lacking. It took time for them to improve. There was still no market for them, but I was having fun making them. For me, the thrill was in making something -- anything, really, that was new, even if only in a minor way. If they had sold, and been popular that would have been icing on the cake. My point is that people can be artistic (Krog pushes two fingerpaint colors together and revels in his raw talent) and they can want financial success -- because people express their love for art sometimes with money, and money ain't so bad. As it was, I nearly begged people to try out my stuff, LOL!

Anyway, since GH is to intellectual property rights what the Wild West was to gun safety, let's just all agree to be less butthurt and continue making stuff for all sorts of reasons.

ooohhh my god i dont care holy COW do i ever not care about whatever you have to say

[sth]

LOL i actually read it what the hell is going on stop agreeing with me

[absyrd]

Some of these caps look like my stools. They are copycrapping my bowel art.

[Glissant]

Since I basically laid down some fire in that thread I feel as if I should say something.  There is a HUGE difference between copying and creating a replica based off of original art.

When it comes to casting there is a part of the art which is used to make duplicates.  This is the same with printmaking, and this is why artists number their prints in a series.  This is to validate the run it was made and differentiate the "copies" from the original.

That being said artists, whom I respect, make their own original to be copied.  I find keycap making to be a great way of making something like a print, and I found it morally awkward to make blanks. 

Where is the artwork in that?  How can I feel right setting a value to that?  It was hard.  I worked really hard on making colors and trying to be creative with a blank key, and who would know it but I couldn't.  Maybe someone would justify some sort of modern-art approach and say certain color combinations in series was artistic.  Whatever-- I just couldn't and this is the fussy business of right and wrong.  I am imposing my beliefs.

Say Pac makes some blanks.. great!  Power to him.  Is it for fun? No.  Money is involved.  Should he be paid for his time? Maybe.  Should he be paid for how many materials he's wasted making a functional key? I can't say.  Are his blanks worth over $5?  God I dunno but I'm sure he wants them to be more than that.  We'd all love our labours to be valued.

The blanks I've got nothing but to wish he would make them as high of quality as possible. I'd love to see some creative designs/ideas come out of the money people were throwing/promising to throw at him.  That's all good.

When I heard him say he was going to make storm troopers and a vader I kinda got sick, again.  Yes I haven't been entirely impressed with anyone's starwars figures except for GirlDC.  Why is that?

No toys were used to make GirlDC's key.  That is a sculpture.  That's just how GirlDC makes keys.

On that note I made a Snorlax the other day, but I sculpted the damn thing.

Show Image

^ That is a replica.  It is me making a figure like something that exists with my own process and skills.

Pouring silicone into a box and making a mold to copy something is not an artist's replica, it is a copy.

On that note it is not right to sell a replica or copy as the original, but IMO it's just as bad to sell copies of any object with artistic value without first making an artistic rendering/replica.

I don't believe hacking a head off of a toy is an artistic rendering.  I do believe anyone who wants to make a sculpture/drawing of their favorite character is welcome to do so, but use your own skills to do it or pay someone talented to do it for you.

The moment any "artisan" practicing mold making/casting creates a sizable amount of their portfolio out of exact copies of parts of licensed toys is the moment I judge them.  It's not immature.  That's just the value of it.  Treating somebody's figure as if it had no creator by copying it to the nearest .001mm is the moment selling it for profit becomes an infuriating action.

Please do not misunderstand.  I've done my fair share of artistic rendering of cartoon characters, living people, still objects, and the like.  I've even taken the advice of a professor and traced a line I couldn't quite get right by eye.  It doesn't change the fact that it's right for people's art to have worth, and it's right to respect that worth in that it does not belong to everyone.  That unique relationship a creator has with a creation gives the creator meaning and it gives the creation value.

On the subject of storm troopys...

http://originalstormtrooper.com/our-story-19-w.asp

Check out that site.  There's a great little bit at the bottom and more elsewhere which repeats in different words what has been said above.  The essence is there.  An original artistic rendering is really what is valued and any compensation available should be given to the owner of that original artistic rendering.  Any copies are just an extension of that original rendering which is why Mr. Lucas was never able to completely claim the stormtrooper as his own without first providing compensation to the artist.

[Binge]

and I found it morally awkward to make blanks. 

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You're right, by my definition and feelings they aren't art.  I tried because people asked me enough, but it wasn't worth the questionable nature.

[Binge]

...

PM me or hit me up on skype/IRC if you want to talk about things.  I am satisfied with your responses and if you make interesting blanks I won't be the only one who wants to buy them.  Sorry for rustling you a little, but sometimes you can only get to know someone who has a less than stellar rep and calls their peers geekwhackers by asking some hard questions.

[esko997]

Interesting thread...despite some people getting upset I have enjoyed reading what people have to say and some fair points and interesting questions were raised. Glad this thread was started and that people are able to talk about it.

[divito]

Interesting thread...despite some people getting upset I have enjoyed reading what people have to say and some fair points and interesting questions were raised. Glad this thread was started and that people are able to talk about it.

Agreed.

When I used to lurk here, the community interaction and approach was one of the primary reasons I decided to jump in. GH is respectable, close, friendly, reasonable, and all things most communities should want to be.

On topic to the actual act, I feel it breaks down a certain way. People who make products based on, or of a reproductive nature almost always usually attribute their source and inspiration. This is true in almost any industry. I can see how in this tight-knit community, there might be some apprehension in supporting another person utilizing a fond aspect of said community.

Where it veers for me is in this classification of "artist." That title is completely irrelevant to the aspect of providing a service or product that is in demand. If I make a cool looking key cap, the method shouldn't really be relevant. If someone makes a mold, if someone makes a 3D-printed file, or someone carves a key, does that mean no one can ever use those methods? What if I love the look of a cap, but want my own modifications for it? What if I publish my own trials on my modifications and other people want it? Am I not allowed to do it because it's a "copy" or similarly made?

There are some members here who are supremely talented, whether that be with soldering, making key caps, dying key caps, etc... If they feel like contributing to other like-minded individuals through monetary incentive, then so be it. If no market exists, they are more than welcome to make it out of desire and contribute without that incentive as well.

[IvanIvanovich]

I LOVE remixes!

[riotonthebay]

Can I appeal my exclusion from pacifist's ban list?

[Pacifist]

Just want some clarification from the community.

1. Its okay for MKC to make these iron mans even though copyrighted by Marvel

and
2. Its okay for Keypop to also make an iron man cap


 

[hwood34]

Just want some clarification from the community.

1. Its okay for MKC to make these iron mans even though copyrighted by Marvel

Show Image

and
2. Its okay for Keypop to also make an iron man cap

Show Image

 

There he is!

[Melvang]

Just want some clarification from the community.

1. Its okay for MKC to make these iron mans even though copyrighted by Marvel

Show Image

and
2. Its okay for Keypop to also make an iron man cap

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I believe it is since they are both artistic interpretations.  Though I could very well be wrong.  From an ethics stand point I am ok with artistic interpretations.  Kind of like the famous painting Starry Night being available as a cross stitch kit.  Though when that painting was done there wasn't copyrights.

[Pacifist]

Just want some clarification from the community.

1. Its okay for MKC to make these iron mans even though copyrighted by Marvel

Show Image

and
2. Its okay for Keypop to also make an iron man cap

Show Image

 

I believe it is since they are both artistic interpretations.  Though I could very well be wrong.  From an ethics stand point I am ok with artistic interpretations.  Kind of like the famous painting Starry Night being available as a cross stitch kit.  Though when that painting was done there wasn't copyrights.

So if I make a trooper that had say, stripes down its face, that would be okay?

[IvanIvanovich]

I look at it like a remix. Take something someone else made, and put some other spin on it. In the 21st century, if we are being really honest 99% of everything that is made is a remix by now. Truly original works are pretty much impossible. Everything is done already. I don't see why people get so butthurt about some of this stuff around here.
Furthermore, the whole concepts of copyright and intellectual property are actually counterproductive to cultural growth. It puts art and science under lock and key for those that are 'special'.

From a 'moral' standpoint... as long as it is clear it is not the 'original' it is not ambiguous in that regard either as there is no attempt to deceive the buyer in any way.

[esko997]

I look at it like a remix. Take something someone else made, and put some other spin on it. In the 21st century, if we are being really honest 99% of everything that is made is a remix by now. Truly original works are pretty much impossible. Everything is done already. I don't see why people get so butthurt about some of this stuff around here.
Furthermore, the whole concepts of copyright and intellectual property are actually counterproductive to cultural growth. It puts art and science under lock and key for those that are 'special'.

Didnt someone once say something along the lines of "Good artists copy other artists; great artists hide their sources." Or did I imagine that?

[Pacifist]

So this is okay?



Its a version of Clone trooper's helmet that I remixed that I haven't shown anybody yet because its stem needs work.
 Super small ridge on the top of its helmet instead of that big one.

[Binge]

Just want some clarification from the community.

1. Its okay for MKC to make these iron mans even though copyrighted by Marvel

Show Image

and
2. Its okay for Keypop to also make an iron man cap

Show Image

 

I believe it is since they are both artistic interpretations.  Though I could very well be wrong.  From an ethics stand point I am ok with artistic interpretations.  Kind of like the famous painting Starry Night being available as a cross stitch kit.  Though when that painting was done there wasn't copyrights.

So if I make a trooper that had say, stripes down its face, that would be okay?

If YOU were to make a trooper it would be ok.  Using an existing model someone else made as your trooper is not ok.  Claiming it is a piece of starwars memorabilia is not ok.  Claiming it is an artistic rendering of a storm trooper from your own skills as an artist is ok.

[Pacifist]

Using an existing model someone else made as your trooper is not ok. 

Then how come nubbinator didn't get any flack but instead praise when he made his trooper cap, which obviously is a lego head stuck to a keycap?

Also, if I were to make out of clay a trooper exactly the same as an existing model, is that okay under your

If YOU were to make a trooper it would be ok. 

statement? Cuz I would be making that myself, 100% handmade (except for the base cap, which everybody uses from existing caps)


This community seriously needs to stop being hypocritical

[Binge]

Using an existing model someone else made as your trooper is not ok. 

Then how come nubbinator didn't get any flack but instead praise when he made his trooper cap, which obviously is a lego head stuck to a keycap?

He did- but he also kept it pretty short because I'm sure he knew it would build up if he didn't just get rid of them.

Also, if I were to make out of clay a trooper exactly the same as an existing model, is that okay under your

If YOU were to make a trooper it would be ok. 

statement? Cuz I would be making that myself, 100% handmade (except for the base cap, which everybody uses from existing caps)

Exactly.  You make the sculpture it is YOUR artistic rendering.  Andrew Ainsworth couldn't even tell you to stop if you didn't call it an official Storm Trooper likeness.  You are in effect copying your own artistic rendering.  This is FINE.

Earlier it was brought up that counterfeiters are just really good at artistic renderings of money, and yes... but they also call it money.  That's the bigger issue.

This community seriously needs to stop being hypocritical

You have no room to speak about hypocrisy.  Just look back at yourself and you'll see much of the disfunction you claim others have.  The issue here is understanding that people are more aware of what is going on.  You have peers in capcrafting who have been doing this longer and mistakes were made, morals were questioned, and ultimately there are a lot of people in the community you say you want to please who think some of what you're proposing to do is questionable.  They are your potential customers, your potential fans, and instead of evaluating your options you've taken out your anger publicly and made statements that you will continue to do what you want no matter what they think.

 

[Pacifist]

Exactly.  You make the sculpture it is YOUR artistic rendering.  Andrew Ainsworth couldn't even tell you to stop if you didn't call it an official Storm Trooper likeness.  You are in effect copying your own artistic rendering.  This is FINE.

Cool, thank you for the justification to handmake remakes of every single popular cap. I won't even need to purchase one to make it, I can just sculpt it myself

I just call it keycap with face, and sell them for everybody

[Binge]

Exactly.  You make the sculpture it is YOUR artistic rendering.  Andrew Ainsworth couldn't even tell you to stop if you didn't call it an official Storm Trooper likeness.  You are in effect copying your own artistic rendering.  This is FINE.

Cool, thank you for the justification to handmake remakes of every single popular cap. I won't even need to purchase one to make it, I can just sculpt it myself

I just call it keycap with face, and sell them for everybody

If you don't use my cap names and you don't use my caps for your molds I don't care.  You won't touch the quality of my figures without some serious dedication and if your aim is to crush my efforts with your skill I say bring it on.. You're just showing the kind of person you are.

[anoxy]

On the real though, aren't you in highschool? You should go party, play highschool sports and apply to colleges.

[Pacifist]

On the real though, aren't you in highschool? You should go party, play highschool sports and apply to colleges.

Or I can make parodies of keycaps. LOL cap here we come! (once I get a new bottle of silicon)

Party: **** I hate parties. Not the kind of person to go to parties
Sports: Naw, those are too time consuming IMO
Apply to colleges: What do you think capmaking is for? BINGO

[lightsout714]

On the real though, aren't you in highschool?

Ahhhh, makes so much more sense now. Not even being a smart *** it just is what it is. It shows.

[Mr.Tumor]

I thought this was about hats with copy machines built in um... Boy was I off!!! 

[pr0ximity]

I LOVE remixes!

Ditto, would love to see more of them.

[moptimus]

So everyone has their panties in a twist because someone who made keycaps used the same source material as inspiration/model as someone else?

Mountain over a mole-hill people.

If the issue is that one person has directly copied source material for personal gain, without paying royalties to an original user, than why is johny-come-lately the one copping the flak, surely that should be shared for everyone that has used trademarked items as source material.

You can bet your bottom dollar that if you started producing Mickey Mouse caps to sell, you would hear from Disney if you appeared on their radar, regardless whether it was a clay model base, a print on a cap, or just a mold from a figure.

Nature abhors a vacuum, but so does the market, if their is demand for custom keycaps, there will be supply - this can be seen in the rip-off clacks that surfaced, and it can be seen in everyone that makes caps to sell.

[Sifo]

PS: inb4 "you can't control supply and demand/markets are markets/but econ 101" argument comes from the very same people who tell others the only way to remove power from corporations is to 'vote with your wallet'

[Binge]

So everyone has their panties in a twist because someone who made keycaps used the same source material as inspiration/model as someone else?

Mountain over a mole-hill people.

If the issue is that one person has directly copied source material for personal gain, without paying royalties to an original user, than why is johny-come-lately the one copping the flak, surely that should be shared for everyone that has used trademarked items as source material.

You can bet your bottom dollar that if you started producing Mickey Mouse caps to sell, you would hear from Disney if you appeared on their radar, regardless whether it was a clay model base, a print on a cap, or just a mold from a figure.

Nature abhors a vacuum, but so does the market, if their is demand for custom keycaps, there will be supply - this can be seen in the rip-off clacks that surfaced, and it can be seen in everyone that makes caps to sell.

nope this isn't what happened at all m8

[HoffmanMyster]

you guys... it's ****ing plastic

I make custom flags for a living, and I've had people say (when they hear my prices for my work): "It's just ****ing fabric!"
True, flags are made of fabric but so are wedding dresses and parachutes. There's labor, there's love in these little chunks of plastic for the artists and hobbyists. I agree with the spirit of what you're saying, sth -- I tire of the butthurtedness, too.

"There are no art forms now, just capitalism"

Wisdom.

 

Pac makes pretty good case about all the artisans (with Binge being the exception) to making keycaps based on intellectual property that they do not own. I don't really buy the argument that at least some of these people (GirlDC as the most prominent example) possess greater skill and/or talent, and so that somehow makes their infringement of other people's property rights some how less? It clearly makes them more artistic, more skilled, no argument there, but it's still not legal.

Some of the people on that list aren't in it for their 'art' -- not that I care, I don't buy into the whole selfless artist stuff. They looked at the market and said, "Hey, anyone want a Hulk keycap?" (People screamed, "Yissss!") and then they made them. Artists (good artists as defined by the market) should produce art and be well-fed and housed for their work and not smell at all like patchouli. But that's not the same as an artist who uses his or her skill to engrave a printing plate so they can counterfeit $100 bills. Do I respect that person's skill? Yes. But is what they're doing right? No, not really. And the fact that they're doing it to a big corporation instead of an individual, to me, is irrelevant.

And hey, I'm totally guilty of buying these things! So, pin a Crimson 'H' on my lapel. I have a Space Invaders keycap! I'm a hypocrite and I'm ashamed. (looks at Space Invaders keycap and fights back tears) Ok, I'm a little bit ashamed -- enough to not pretend I'm right.

Sheesh, no wonder there are no services like mine. I try to give back to the community and get stabbed in the back for it.

Toughen up buddy, you're an artist. Just do me a favor and don't strike a messianic pose -- just make good stuff that people want and don't pretend to be an artist if you actually aren't. I (seriously) wouldn't think any less of you. And go ahead and make some money in the process, Pac, I'm all for it.

Also, I speak from some experience at being a failed artist -- well, not really an artist. Is flocking a keycap artistic? The closest I came was mixing two colors of flock to make a new color, so... I mixed two colors and now I'm an artist. LOL! And the keycaps that results started out really, REALLY lacking. It took time for them to improve. There was still no market for them, but I was having fun making them. For me, the thrill was in making something -- anything, really, that was new, even if only in a minor way. If they had sold, and been popular that would have been icing on the cake. My point is that people can be artistic (Krog pushes two fingerpaint colors together and revels in his raw talent) and they can want financial success -- because people express their love for art sometimes with money, and money ain't so bad. As it was, I nearly begged people to try out my stuff, LOL!

Anyway, since GH is to intellectual property rights what the Wild West was to gun safety, let's just all agree to be less butthurt and continue making stuff for all sorts of reasons.

This is totally (sort of) off topic, but I have one of your flocked spacebars and it is awesome.  I've told you this before, but I'm telling you again because it's still true.   

[dustinhxc]

How the hell did I get on the banned list? 

[riotonthebay]

How the hell did I get on the banned list? 

Pacifist perceived that his perception of your perception of his caps was perceived to be negative.

Also, no one took my earlier appeal seriously .

[Zeal]

How the hell did I get on the banned list? 

Pacifist perceived that his perception of your perception of his caps was perceived to be negative.

Also, no one took my earlier appeal seriously .

Perceive-ception?!

You could always voluntarily add yourself to his ban list, if you'd like. 

[HoffmanMyster]

How the hell did I get on the banned list? 

How do you know you're banned?