Author Topic: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?  (Read 37531 times)

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Offline SpAmRaY

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How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« on: Thu, 15 May 2014, 19:43:11 »
Let's please try and be mature.

But what is the general consensus on making caps by just copying someone else's design?

We have quite a few artisans around, is it really necessary to be original anymore?

EDIT: Just to be clear yes this conversation was inspired by pacifist and the idea of 'giving people what they want' which I understood meant copying existing designs.

 This goes beyond pacifist and this thread is not intended for any sort of personal attack but to discuss the general idea that seems to be going around that up and coming cap makers should just make caps that look like existing caps because people will throw money at them.

Yes some people have used lego heads, toy heads etc which can also be seen as a copy cap so that fits in this discussion to.

Ask yourself this, do you think about or do you even care who you throw you money at for a custom keycap?
« Last Edit: Wed, 28 May 2014, 06:18:09 by SpAmRaY »

Offline Sifo

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #1 on: Thu, 15 May 2014, 19:43:58 »
just give what people want
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Offline Vibex

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #2 on: Thu, 15 May 2014, 19:47:28 »
I feel they are alright as long as they are not being marketed as the originals.

Offline pichu23

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 15 May 2014, 19:49:29 »
supply & demand. teehee ?
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Offline tjcaustin

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 15 May 2014, 20:10:43 »
Let's please try and be mature.

But what is the general consensus on making caps by just copying someone else's design?

We have quite a few artisans around, is it really necessary to be original anymore?

But we're all too immature to get copied keycaps from a great artist.  One of them just said so!

I, for one, think we should strive to be better so that we can be blessed with the offerings of the front-of-the-lunch-line wanting, gets-punished-for-doing-things-other-people-do-too pariah that is PacCaps.

Offline esoomenona

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 15 May 2014, 20:14:50 »
You mean stealing other people's ideas, like basically making custom color Julysicles/Candy Corns? I know it's kind of a tough situation for those, and definitely arguable that it's such a basic design that it isn't really copying, but he has been making those for such a long time. I think even all the other cap artisans agree with that to some degree, which is why no other one has made something like those.

But I guess if that's what the people want....

Offline Distilled

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 15 May 2014, 20:20:21 »
Anything with a high demand will eventually be copied. So I guess 'copycaps' are inevitable no matter what we say. However, just because I want something that is hard to get doesn't mean some one who has worked hard to create it should get screwed for more supply. Even less fair that some one else profits from all the hard work and resources the creators put in.

Also means that the artisan key makers are less likely to continue putting in the effort as its really hard to stay motivated when people are free loading off you. On the flip side it could lead to innovation and penta-coloured CC  :eek:.

Offline Xowie

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #7 on: Thu, 15 May 2014, 20:23:24 »
I think it is a terrible idea. Moral arguments aside, copys/fakes have the potential to bring down the perceived quality of artist's work if the copy is not up to par. Also it is easy to imagine that copys would cause scams to be rampant.
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Offline lightsout714

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #8 on: Thu, 15 May 2014, 20:28:38 »
Its not really the same for me. Sure it looks similar but if you know its a fake it kind of defeats the purpose. I don't agree at all with people making the same things others have. Kind of tacky, get your own idea.

Offline jwaz

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #9 on: Thu, 15 May 2014, 20:33:41 »
Really? Copycaps? Because the people that made the caps being copied owned the designs they were producing?

Hasbro owns the rights to Transformers and Disney owns the rights to Star Wars.

Offline anoxy

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #10 on: Thu, 15 May 2014, 20:33:59 »
I posted this in Pac's thread before he closed it, so I'll x-post here for the sake of adding to the discussion.

I mean, if somebody can create respectable replicas of existing designs. the original design doesn't seem as illustrious as the overly inflated prices suggest.

People make and buy replicas all the time. If it means you can get a quality, cool looking product at a cheaper price, that's cool with me, the consumer.

Why can't it be a tribute to the original artist's design? Like a band that cover's another band's album.

He's still forging the caps himself and partaking in artistic creation. If you have a problem with that, don't buy them and continue buying the original for their steep prices. You still have plenty of people who will do the same and prefer the original designs, so price inflation shouldn't go anywhere. There will just be two markets of consumers; one that enjoys the exclusive feeling of acquiring rare art, and one that doesn't care about that and just want a cool looking cap for their keyboard.


Stop pestering the man and go make some new designs yourself.

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #11 on: Thu, 15 May 2014, 20:36:59 »
Really? Copycaps? Because the people that made the caps being copied owned the designs they were producing?

Hasbro owns the rights to Transformers and Disney owns the rights to Star Wars.

So you are saying even some caps we consider originals are also copycaps.

#mindblown

Offline esoomenona

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #12 on: Thu, 15 May 2014, 20:40:04 »
How about HE make some new designs himself? I don't know that your argument holds any water here. These are not companies or people who are making tons of profit off of these caps. The steep prices are solely aftermarket. These people sell these caps they create for reasonable prices. So ****ing with their designs is disrespectful.

On J's topic, that's why I never mentioned anything about that cap in particular. Even CC has made a Vader cap. And then girlDC made another after that, though a different design. I really don't know what to say in that regard. But even if those designs are stolen, there's a difference between making a design of your own and directly copying something done by another.

Offline anoxy

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #13 on: Thu, 15 May 2014, 20:44:25 »
How about HE make some new designs himself? I don't know that your argument holds any water here. These are not companies or people who are making tons of profit off of these caps. The steep prices are solely aftermarket. These people sell these caps they create for reasonable prices. So ****ing with their designs is disrespectful.
In Pac's thread there were people complaining that this would undermine the aftermarket viability of the 'original' artisan caps. Like somehow having replicas, or similar designs would cause the inflated aftermarket demand to drop. That's what I was responding to.

Offline riotonthebay

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #14 on: Thu, 15 May 2014, 20:45:40 »
How about HE make some new designs himself? I don't know that your argument holds any water here. These are not companies or people who are making tons of profit off of these caps. The steep prices are solely aftermarket. These people sell these caps they create for reasonable prices. So ****ing with their designs is disrespectful.

On J's topic, that's why I never mentioned anything about that cap in particular. Even CC has made a Vader cap. And then girlDC made another after that, though a different design. I really don't know what to say in that regard. But even if those designs are stolen, there's a difference between making a design of your own and directly copying something done by another.

There's a pretty big difference between e.g. the fake clacks that appeared and pacifist's trooper. He didn't even put the trooper up for sale – for all we know he was just experimenting and wanted something to compare it to. I'm not pacifist's biggest fan, but this feels a bit like "guilty before proven innocent."

Offline bueller

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #15 on: Thu, 15 May 2014, 20:48:23 »
I think it sucks. I don't give a **** who owns the original copyright because they're not making caps. What pisses me off is that he's potentially taking money from GH members by using their tried and tested designs instead of coming up with something original.
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Offline esoomenona

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #16 on: Thu, 15 May 2014, 20:51:15 »
He did specifically say that until we're more mature, he won't sell them, so there's that. But you could be right. But then again, he never offered argument in response to this, and now that your idea is out in the open, will he take it as his own, or if he says it, was it really how he felt beforehand?

To anoxy: if what you're saying is true about people making an argument about damaging the aftermarket value, then that is ****ing ludicrous to hear. The battle between people wanting to maximize profit from these caps and people trying their hardest to acquire them for next to nothing always wages, and I think it makes this community look fairly pathetic at times.

Offline anoxy

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #17 on: Thu, 15 May 2014, 20:53:23 »
I think it sucks. I don't give a **** who owns the original copyright because they're not making caps. What pisses me off is that he's potentially taking money from GH members by using their tried and tested designs instead of coming up with something original.

Isn't that the nature of competition? Isn't that how innovation happens and new designs are made?

Offline metalliqaz

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #18 on: Thu, 15 May 2014, 20:56:12 »
Y'all people are crazy.

Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #19 on: Thu, 15 May 2014, 20:56:38 »
I think it sucks. I don't give a **** who owns the original copyright because they're not making caps. What pisses me off is that he's potentially taking money from GH members by using their tried and tested designs instead of coming up with something original.

Isn't that the nature of competition? Isn't that how innovation happens and new designs are made?

Not when they're copied... That's the whole point of this thread.

Offline esoomenona

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #20 on: Thu, 15 May 2014, 20:59:05 »
Are counterfeiters innovating and creating new designs when they copy a Louis Vuitton purse and sell it for cheap? Or are they just profiting off of someone elses' design? Or do you mean that it makes the original designer have to create a new design because their original was stolen from them? Is that fair to them?

Offline anoxy

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #21 on: Thu, 15 May 2014, 21:04:46 »
I think it sucks. I don't give a **** who owns the original copyright because they're not making caps. What pisses me off is that he's potentially taking money from GH members by using their tried and tested designs instead of coming up with something original.

Isn't that the nature of competition? Isn't that how innovation happens and new designs are made?

Not when they're copied... That's the whole point of this thread.

I see. I guess I just don't see how mixing two colors into a keycap or using a stormtrooper is so innovative that anything similar to it should be dubbed as a "copy"

Like honestly, how does this (Pac's design):


Look anything like this?:



They are both based off of stormtroopers. That is the only similarity. How is that a copy?

Offline nubbinator

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #22 on: Thu, 15 May 2014, 21:07:40 »
Since it's my cap that's being copied, I'll give my thoughts on it and try to present a reasonable statement on the issue.

I don't have any rights to the design I originally did with that cap.  Since I did not innovate it nor do I hold a copyright or exclusive copyright permission to use it, there is nothing I can do about it.  If he wants to copy the design he has every right to.  There are some differences, like my helmet being at an angle so you actually got to see the trooper's face when it sat on your keyboard instead of looking down on it.

That said, I am disappointed that a cap design I did was copied, especially since he drew on the guide I made and the guide Binge made for starting. He also PMed me asking for help and started threads to which myself and other cap makers contributed.  While some of the answers were wishy washy since casting is affected by your specific location and others were us stating that you need to do basic research and come back with more specific questions, he did receive help from myself and others.  To do a design that I did is kind of a slap in the face then.  I sold a small handful of them after that, but was never 100% happy with my design, planning to revisit it as I got better at what I do.

While some, like HipsterPunks, have made me glad I did guides and helped them with some issues (I know Binge helped him a lot as well), others, like Pacifist, make me not want to do guides for the community anymore.  It feels like they bite me in the ass more than they help the community and help the community grow.

All that said, since I do not have the rights to anything Star Wars, I cannot call it a "copycap" or anything along those lines.  He can do whatever he wants, people can continue to call him out on it, and I can hope that he listens to those people and only releases his own novel designs.  I'll be disappointed if he does release it, but there's nothing I can do about and, honestly, nothing the community can do aside from not buy it unless Disney decides to take him to court since they're very protective of their IP.
« Last Edit: Thu, 15 May 2014, 21:09:26 by nubbinator »

Offline t2russo

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #23 on: Thu, 15 May 2014, 21:10:22 »
So it's ok to experiment if you have the right name.  What an embarrassment. 

Tell him not to do it privately, posting memes and riling up a crowd is just such a big man way of showing that highschool kid he overstepped his bounds.

I'm not even a fan of the kid but he had no chance from the start.  People wanted an excuse for blood and everyone jumped at the first chance.
« Last Edit: Thu, 15 May 2014, 21:11:59 by t2russo »

Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #24 on: Thu, 15 May 2014, 21:11:19 »
I think it sucks. I don't give a **** who owns the original copyright because they're not making caps. What pisses me off is that he's potentially taking money from GH members by using their tried and tested designs instead of coming up with something original.

Isn't that the nature of competition? Isn't that how innovation happens and new designs are made?

Not when they're copied... That's the whole point of this thread.

I see. I guess I just don't see how mixing two colors into a keycap or using a stormtrooper is so innovative that anything similar to it should be dubbed as a "copy"

Like honestly, how does this (Pac's design):
Show Image


Look anything like this?:
Show Image



They are both based off of stormtroopers. That is the only similarity. How is that a copy?

It's this one.  http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=33130.msg1164537#msg1164537

However, nubs has responded below, so it's a bit of a moot point, but I just wanted to make sure you had all the correct information.  :)

Offline RabRhee

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #25 on: Thu, 15 May 2014, 21:24:53 »
This is a small community, anyone crafting something here is usually doing it on a small, personal scale, and it could be seen that at the community level, if someone has an idea to do something, you respect that idea and consider they have 'dibs' at least for a reasonable time, or if they have succeeded, you respect that as their particular thing.

Its not the same as running off a copy of some picasso, or nike trainers. or copying a trademark icon of some multinational. In this place, its like two friends at college, one fancies one girl, the other backs off. If he gets nowhere, the other may try, or may ask his friend if he can try. If the first guy dates the girl for a reasonable time, then you could argue that stops a friend forever unless they get real permission. And if their friend says no, don't go for it. Maybe some don't feel this way here, but I think it is how it should be. This is a group area for crafters just as if we were all sat in the same hall crafting away as we vendor.

But then there is the issue of 'how close' a copy. And thats a whole big nest of worms. I work with metal, and as far as that goes there is only so much variety in material. Just as there are only so many basic colours of plastic for a key without it being 'close' to another shade. I have seen at least 6 or 8 types of skull keys, in metal and plastic, but the designs were pretty different and showed at least some originality. For consensus on whether something is just a copy, sometimes it is obvious, sometimes its just count the number of pitchforks waving at the gate. Maybe the 'copycaps' shouters have a valid point, maybe they are too sensitive, in a small community, sometimes you have to adjust to people being a bit sensitive and maybe change your designs a bit more to avoid offence. This should be nothing major for a true artisan.

People like Clack, Brocaps, Binge, Nubbs, Cherpalla, many others, have managed to create something which is, I think, sufficiently unique to their own style that you can call it creative and original. Creating an original and selling often requires much effort. Hype, advertising, practising designs, discarding designs, learning what thickness works, what curves work. Sometimes hundreds of dollars creating moulds, templates, buying tools, whatever. If someone does that work, it is not in good spirit to set up shop next door selling their same designs. That is just letting someone elses labour pull your cart for you, or chasing a quick buck. Not quite like copying Cherry fonts, more like helping yourself to the fries of the guy sat at the next table.

It can be frustrating if you want a Tardis keycap and the guy who sort-of runs the crafting of them has only made 6 and they are $200 each, but theres many ways to create a tardis keycap without just copying the design directly. You want skeletor on a keycap, do a side view, do a 3d view, do the Tatooine survival gear edition, whatever. I think the many Iron-mans that have shown up are a little encroaching on each other, but at least some of them had new ways of doing a tin face on a key, and tried for some originality (although maybe not all of them)

It may also depend on who is copied, if they take offence then stop doing it, even if you think they may be a little sensitive. If they approve or voice no concerns, its still nice to ask beforehand if there are many similarities.

tl;dr - Artisans can change and create original designs, so if a design offends many, do a new one, artist.
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Offline neunelfer

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #26 on: Thu, 15 May 2014, 21:36:41 »
I thought it was interesting to see these "Candy Corn" Stormtrooper caps. Quite a unique color scheme, yet no one seems to mind about that. I realize that it's not the same as an entire design, but there are definitely some similarities between these two cases - the reaction from the community is drastically different.



Offline nubbinator

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #27 on: Thu, 15 May 2014, 21:38:30 »
For the record, I would never sell a theme like that.  The only reason I did the theme is because Dustin had won a Geekhack charity auction I was participating in and he requested that color theme to go with his Clacks.  When it comes to stuff I sell, I always do my own colors and color combos and try to avoid anyone's "trademark" color combos.

Those were also pre-pressure pot days when I was first learning how to properly double and triple shot.

Offline Zeal

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #28 on: Thu, 15 May 2014, 21:41:16 »
Let's be honest here. Why do I feel like all (or some of) the hate here is because it's Pacifist that copied a design? I guess there are unwritten rules that the "older, unmature" people follow, and he may not realize it yet.
« Last Edit: Thu, 15 May 2014, 21:43:50 by Zeal »
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Offline esoomenona

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #29 on: Thu, 15 May 2014, 21:41:37 »
I thought it was interesting to see these "Candy Corn" Stormtrooper caps. Quite a unique color scheme, yet no one seems to mind about that. I realize that it's not the same as an entire design, but there are definitely some similarities between these two cases - the reaction from the community is drastically different.

Show Image



Yeah, I did notice that as well. I had never seen that before. I was just about to agree with anoxy that the design was different, when someone posted those, and they're candy corn.

That's when I was just like ****. This community is literally full of hypocrites who choose their battles. Someone should've called nubbinator on that ****, but like t2russo said, you have to be the right person, and apparently Pacifist isn't.

I wish I could keep track of every ****ing post in this site so I could call every single one on their ****...

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #30 on: Thu, 15 May 2014, 21:43:50 »
So it's ok to experiment if you have the right name.  What an embarrassment. 

Tell him not to do it privately, posting memes and riling up a crowd is just such a big man way of showing that highschool kid he overstepped his bounds.

I'm not even a fan of the kid but he had no chance from the start.  People wanted an excuse for blood and everyone jumped at the first chance.

This goes beyond pacifist. It's a legitimate question.

It's obvious we have people here at geekhack who just want caps and don't care who, what or how they are made, that's part of the problem. And we have people who just want to make money off those people.

It is not just the literal copying but the attitude that goes with it.

Someone already tried cashing in with the fake clacks and I've seen plenty of people admit they'd buy them anyway knowing they were fake.

I think we should encourage people to be creative and different.

If someone wants to make a copy in the learning process they should say that is what they are doing and not try to profit from it.

I know many cap crafters spend a good bit of money to get started but when do we stop and rethink how much these caps are really worth?

And do we account for how creative someone is being when we throw money at them?

Offline neunelfer

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #31 on: Thu, 15 May 2014, 21:45:08 »
Another thing that crossed my mind - just because nubbinator was the first to take some sort of proprietary action figure/lego and put it on a keycap, he now owns that design and any others using a slightly different proprietary action figure/lego are copying him?

Offline esoomenona

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #32 on: Thu, 15 May 2014, 21:48:51 »
Also, if someone makes a copy of something in their learning process, it shouldn't go to someone else. Once it leaves that persons hands, there is no guarantee that its not going to get turned around and put out into the open, possibly even for profit, damaging your brand because you'll be viewed as copying even if that wasn't your intent.

Offline jwaz

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #33 on: Thu, 15 May 2014, 22:07:15 »
Another thing that crossed my mind - just because nubbinator was the first to take some sort of proprietary action figure/lego and put it on a keycap, he now owns that design and any others using a slightly different proprietary action figure/lego are copying him?

He wasn't even close to the first (CC, girlDC, Bro Caps, etc), this is essentially the point I made.

Offline Distilled

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #34 on: Thu, 15 May 2014, 22:09:20 »
It really comes down to someone actually placing their own ideas into making something, rather than simply having someone else do the thinking for them and copying them. There is always going to be a big grey area on how much independent thought it takes for something to move from being a copy to something unique. Is a different angle enough? how about just a different colour?

Very few ideas will be 100% unique and no one can really own the idea behind a key cap, although they probably can claim ownership over the specific arrangement of the elements.

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #35 on: Thu, 15 May 2014, 23:19:00 »
I feel they are alright as long as they are not being marketed as the originals.

basically this

Offline lightsout714

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #36 on: Fri, 16 May 2014, 00:49:36 »
I felt the same way when I saw the candy corn troopers. Seems pretty hypocritical. Glad to see they weren't actually for sale though I guess that changes things a bit. That is definitely a CC thing though probably would have been better to pick a different color combo.

Offline rowdy

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #37 on: Fri, 16 May 2014, 00:52:16 »
I feel they are alright as long as they are not being marketed as the originals.

basically this

This too, preferably without them being marketed at all if they are direct copies.

if you want to copy something for your own amusement, that wouldn't hurt anyone (except maybe the original artist, but then if you are prepared to put in the effort to copy their work you are unlikely to have bought one of their originals anyway).

When they are being sold as the genuine article, and at inflated prices, is when things go seriously arse over tits.
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

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Offline Melvang

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #38 on: Fri, 16 May 2014, 01:07:09 »
The way I see it, if the fakes are not being sold for inflated prices then it can almost be seen as a form of flattery.  Granted, I wouldn't do this.  I might take an idea for some hardware and modify it for my personal needs, but I would still give credit where it is due with the original work.  Though with artistic stuff such as artisan caps it should almost be expected in todays day and age.
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Offline Binge

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #39 on: Fri, 16 May 2014, 01:39:01 »
Since I basically laid down some fire in that thread I feel as if I should say something.  There is a HUGE difference between copying and creating a replica based off of original art.

When it comes to casting there is a part of the art which is used to make duplicates.  This is the same with printmaking, and this is why artists number their prints in a series.  This is to validate the run it was made and differentiate the "copies" from the original.

That being said artists, whom I respect, make their own original to be copied.  I find keycap making to be a great way of making something like a print, and I found it morally awkward to make blanks. 

Where is the artwork in that?  How can I feel right setting a value to that?  It was hard.  I worked really hard on making colors and trying to be creative with a blank key, and who would know it but I couldn't.  Maybe someone would justify some sort of modern-art approach and say certain color combinations in series was artistic.  Whatever-- I just couldn't and this is the fussy business of right and wrong.  I am imposing my beliefs.

Say Pac makes some blanks.. great!  Power to him.  Is it for fun? No.  Money is involved.  Should he be paid for his time? Maybe.  Should he be paid for how many materials he's wasted making a functional key? I can't say.  Are his blanks worth over $5?  God I dunno but I'm sure he wants them to be more than that.  We'd all love our labours to be valued.

The blanks I've got nothing but to wish he would make them as high of quality as possible. I'd love to see some creative designs/ideas come out of the money people were throwing/promising to throw at him.  That's all good.

When I heard him say he was going to make storm troopers and a vader I kinda got sick, again.  Yes I haven't been entirely impressed with anyone's starwars figures except for GirlDC.  Why is that?

No toys were used to make GirlDC's key.  That is a sculpture.  That's just how GirlDC makes keys.

On that note I made a Snorlax the other day, but I sculpted the damn thing.



^ That is a replica.  It is me making a figure like something that exists with my own process and skills.

Pouring silicone into a box and making a mold to copy something is not an artist's replica, it is a copy.

On that note it is not right to sell a replica or copy as the original, but IMO it's just as bad to sell copies of any object with artistic value without first making an artistic rendering/replica.

I don't believe hacking a head off of a toy is an artistic rendering.  I do believe anyone who wants to make a sculpture/drawing of their favorite character is welcome to do so, but use your own skills to do it or pay someone talented to do it for you.

The moment any "artisan" practicing mold making/casting creates a sizable amount of their portfolio out of exact copies of parts of licensed toys is the moment I judge them.  It's not immature.  That's just the value of it.  Treating somebody's figure as if it had no creator by copying it to the nearest .001mm is the moment selling it for profit becomes an infuriating action.

Please do not misunderstand.  I've done my fair share of artistic rendering of cartoon characters, living people, still objects, and the like.  I've even taken the advice of a professor and traced a line I couldn't quite get right by eye.  It doesn't change the fact that it's right for people's art to have worth, and it's right to respect that worth in that it does not belong to everyone.  That unique relationship a creator has with a creation gives the creator meaning and it gives the creation value.

On the subject of storm troopys...

http://originalstormtrooper.com/our-story-19-w.asp

Check out that site.  There's a great little bit at the bottom and more elsewhere which repeats in different words what has been said above.  The essence is there.  An original artistic rendering is really what is valued and any compensation available should be given to the owner of that original artistic rendering.  Any copies are just an extension of that original rendering which is why Mr. Lucas was never able to completely claim the stormtrooper as his own without first providing compensation to the artist.
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Offline asdfjkl36

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #40 on: Fri, 16 May 2014, 02:47:20 »
Very well said, Binge. Very well said.

Offline dustinhxc

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #41 on: Fri, 16 May 2014, 05:50:24 »
I thought it was interesting to see these "Candy Corn" Stormtrooper caps. Quite a unique color scheme, yet no one seems to mind about that. I realize that it's not the same as an entire design, but there are definitely some similarities between these two cases - the reaction from the community is drastically different.

Show Image


This is my all time favorite color combo. It was my dream idea and Nubs was KIND enough to create my dreams into reality, I thank him forever for that. :)

Offline Krogenar

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #42 on: Fri, 16 May 2014, 09:11:52 »
For me, making an exact duplicate of someone else's work is not really artistic at all. As for the Orangesicle color scheme being exclusive to CC, I don't think so. If someone were to use that color scheme and a skull design, or an exact replica of a clack skull, then, yeah -- that's not only non-artistic, it's infringement. Colors can be copyrighted -- such as Coca-Cola red. If you tried using that color on a baseball hat,  you'd probably be fine -- but use it in any way with a carbonated beverage and you're probably going to sued by Coca-Cola's battalion of lawyers. If said person made their own skull, and changed the colors of cream and orange a little, is it still infringement? Yeah, to some degree. But does CC have a brand to be harmed? Is he going to lose sales of his original work? Doubtful.

I used to work for a company that did trademark research. They would give me a proposed name for a new product and I would search existing known databases to find out if there were any other existing products that could be construed as (the legal definition) "confusingly similar" -- would a purchaser unwittingly buy the other product by accident?

So, if given a search for a new product called 'Pipsi' that would be a carbonated drink, I could tell the client there was a 'Pepsi' of the same product type that would likely sue their asses off. The idea is that a drink called 'Pipsi' would be siphoning off the marketing juice of 'Pepsi' and that would be causing them financial harm.

But, since all our artists are selfless altruists, this is not about the money -- it's about their art.

Ok, that's fine -- but it does make me laugh that we're wringing our hands over the copying of a copy of a copyrighted intellectual property! For me, it depends on the specificity of the artistic work. For example: Binge made a bear cap. Does that mean someone else could never make a bear-themed cap? I don't think so. If it's a duplicate of his work, that's wrong. If it's a different interpretation of a bear head (perhaps a Yogi the Bear head?) then I think that would be acceptable. Similarly, CC doesn't own the skull theme, but does own his specific interpretation of it.

But I gotta say, it feels a little hypocritical to claim that they're not in it for the money, but then when someone takes their "theme" and could potentially make some money, there's hell to pay. If someone takes another artist's design nearly en toto, then it's infringement, and morally wrong and those people should die alone, 40 pounds overweight, secure in the knowledge that no one ever loved them. But artists don't (and shouldn't) own entire theme material.
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Offline baldgye

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #43 on: Fri, 16 May 2014, 10:01:17 »
I thought it was interesting to see these "Candy Corn" Stormtrooper caps. Quite a unique color scheme, yet no one seems to mind about that. I realize that it's not the same as an entire design, but there are definitely some similarities between these two cases - the reaction from the community is drastically different.

Show Image



Probably because they look like ****?

Offline Pinder

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #44 on: Fri, 16 May 2014, 10:22:51 »
if anyone makes good fake brobots pm me :P
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Offline t2russo

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #45 on: Fri, 16 May 2014, 10:29:16 »
More
For me, making an exact duplicate of someone else's work is not really artistic at all. As for the Orangesicle color scheme being exclusive to CC, I don't think so. If someone were to use that color scheme and a skull design, or an exact replica of a clack skull, then, yeah -- that's not only non-artistic, it's infringement. Colors can be copyrighted -- such as Coca-Cola red. If you tried using that color on a baseball hat,  you'd probably be fine -- but use it in any way with a carbonated beverage and you're probably going to sued by Coca-Cola's battalion of lawyers. If said person made their own skull, and changed the colors of cream and orange a little, is it still infringement? Yeah, to some degree. But does CC have a brand to be harmed? Is he going to lose sales of his original work? Doubtful.

I used to work for a company that did trademark research. They would give me a proposed name for a new product and I would search existing known databases to find out if there were any other existing products that could be construed as (the legal definition) "confusingly similar" -- would a purchaser unwittingly buy the other product by accident?

So, if given a search for a new product called 'Pipsi' that would be a carbonated drink, I could tell the client there was a 'Pepsi' of the same product type that would likely sue their asses off. The idea is that a drink called 'Pipsi' would be siphoning off the marketing juice of 'Pepsi' and that would be causing them financial harm.

But, since all our artists are selfless altruists, this is not about the money -- it's about their art.

Ok, that's fine -- but it does make me laugh that we're wringing our hands over the copying of a copy of a copyrighted intellectual property! For me, it depends on the specificity of the artistic work. For example: Binge made a bear cap. Does that mean someone else could never make a bear-themed cap? I don't think so. If it's a duplicate of his work, that's wrong. If it's a different interpretation of a bear head (perhaps a Yogi the Bear head?) then I think that would be acceptable. Similarly, CC doesn't own the skull theme, but does own his specific interpretation of it.

But I gotta say, it feels a little hypocritical to claim that they're not in it for the money, but then when someone takes their "theme" and could potentially make some money, there's hell to pay. If someone takes another artist's design nearly en toto, then it's infringement, and morally wrong and those people should die alone, 40 pounds overweight, secure in the knowledge that no one ever loved them. But artists don't (and shouldn't) own entire theme material.

Krog, thanks for this writeup.  You spent time laying out a detailed and clear argument, and made sure to cite real world examples and not just feelz.

Geekhack is a bit of a fantasy world sometimes and could often use a good drop back down to earth.

Offline Binge

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #46 on: Fri, 16 May 2014, 11:03:30 »
But artists don't (and shouldn't) own entire theme material.

No argument here and kudos.  My entire beef is with the blatant copying of any artistic representation.  This includes toys as they were designed by a toy artist.  If someone makes a better depiction of something I've done which is just a theme, then more power to them.  If they want me to be the BEAR MASTER... heck I don't mind that either.
« Last Edit: Fri, 16 May 2014, 11:05:15 by Binge »
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Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #47 on: Fri, 16 May 2014, 11:23:06 »
But artists don't (and shouldn't) own entire theme material.

No argument here and kudos.  My entire beef is with the blatant copying of any artistic representation.  This includes toys as they were designed by a toy artist.  If someone makes a better depiction of something I've done which is just a theme, then more power to them.  If they want me to be the BEAR MASTER... heck I don't mind that either.

I believe you are the moose master for sure. ;)

Offline Binge

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #48 on: Fri, 16 May 2014, 11:26:21 »
But artists don't (and shouldn't) own entire theme material.

No argument here and kudos.  My entire beef is with the blatant copying of any artistic representation.  This includes toys as they were designed by a toy artist.  If someone makes a better depiction of something I've done which is just a theme, then more power to them.  If they want me to be the BEAR MASTER... heck I don't mind that either.

I believe you are the moose master for sure. ;)

That goes to moose here.  I provided him with a number of the original masters because it's his work that inspired me to make the cap.
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Offline Zombly

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Re: How do you feel about 'copycaps'?
« Reply #49 on: Fri, 16 May 2014, 11:31:22 »
Personally,

I like the ideas of taking someone's ideas and improving on them, however in a perfect world for example, if I wanted to make something similar to a Bro (only mentioning this because always on my mind) I would get consent first, show him my design prove that it's not just a stolen idea for a Brocap, and just to pawn it off, that would be complete copying.

I of course am unable to do this as I don't have an artistic vision, but just enjoy what is being made, I think an agreement should be made with people who have designs that are very similar, so that both parties agree.
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