Author Topic: The Living 3D Printing Thread  (Read 132710 times)

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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #450 on: Fri, 30 August 2013, 11:40:04 »
they're sending me out another one (oh god makerbot support is amazing, i can't even begin to describe how thankful i am for the things they've comped me). i suspect this is going out fedex home (although my last shipment they upgraded me without comment, because they're THAT awesome.) so mid next week. the everything mechanical is ready. at this point i'm just waiting for a mightyboard.

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #451 on: Fri, 30 August 2013, 11:42:24 »
btw, repg is what started this whole mess. i triggered a bug in repg that set my atmega1280 lockbits to 0x00 (NO MORE PROGRAMMING FOR YOU) and had to jury rig a high voltage serial reprogram using a jtagice3 which explicitly doesn't support it. this first involved a 12v battery that fried the manual reset switch and then finally a 1hz function generator set to 0-12v on the rst pin.

that said, by the time i got the lock bits unset, it was too late, no matter what i loaded on to the m1280, i got no boot from the board.

conclusion: be extremely careful with repg-r22 and mightboard rev Gs. it does the wrong thing in spades.

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #452 on: Fri, 30 August 2013, 16:38:26 »
Leslieann, did you use Berry tripper at the end?
I'll need to change extruder too. So I'm looking for some bastard child of Airtripper and Wades/Greg.
Something which uses gears and hobbed bolt but has filament guide and clamp as airtripper.

My computation that the direct drive should be enough was wrong. I didn't know that when a stepper is using micro stepping then it's actual torque is only about 70% of the nominal rating.
Berry Tripper is a Wades gear reduction combined with Airtripper, and yes, I'm using it.  Other than sometimes having to "aim" the filament into the output hole, it works fabulous.

I have designed a new micro, easy loading, geared extruder, but it's been bogged down with minor problems. It's close, but still needs some work and my attention has been focused on the new printer instead, so I've been using the Berry Tripper.


Go geared, you won't regret it.
It's a bit noisier and a bit bulkier, but it really does make things easier. I went back to the Ez Struder the other night, out of curiosity, I like that little thing, but wow, did it lack the power and precision of the geared extruder.

By the way, if you do use the Berry Tripper, the steps per mm with most hobbed gears is right about 340 per 100mm. With such a high number, being off a tad isn't as much of an issue compared to direct.


i managed to brick a mightyboard. oops
Don't do that.  ;D
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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #453 on: Fri, 30 August 2013, 16:49:40 »
fwiw, i'm not exactly sure what bricked it, but the initial problem is that idiotic repg set all the lock bits on my atmega1280 either after, before or while putting garbage all over the flash memory. i bought an atmeljtagice3 to try to ISP or JTAG my way out of this mess, but unless you spend 600$ on the AVRONE, you don't get high voltage programming through the dongle. so i did what any red blooded hacker would do: found the reset pin and applied 12v to it. unfortunately it turns out the reset pin basically sinks to ground and i ran about 10A through it, frying the reset switch. once i realized this (magic smoke from batteries is bad), i strobed the pin at 13v with a function generator instead and was able to reset the lock bits via ISP with the ICE3. however, something in my 1280 was still clearly not happy (i suspect the bootloader was corrupted in an unrecoverable way, set non-write and then permanently fused). so i had to pull the thing off the board anyway. because i don't have any smd rework tools i pulled about 8 pads off while doing this because lead free solder and solder wick ARE NOT FUN and NOW I HATE ATMEL EVEN MORE.

thankfully MBI is awesome and is sending my a new board. hooray!

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #454 on: Fri, 30 August 2013, 16:52:27 »
m1280s are cheap, thankfully, so i'll replace those pads with very carefully applied copper tape and throw a new chip on. SIGH. on the upside, atmel studio is actually not that bad. i expected much worse.

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline domoaligato

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #455 on: Fri, 30 August 2013, 18:23:09 »
Does anyone happen to have a 3ds max file for a cherry esc key?

Please?

Offline MOZ

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #456 on: Fri, 30 August 2013, 18:31:38 »
Does anyone happen to have a 3ds max file for a cherry esc key?

Please?

If and when you find one, post it in the CAD resource hub please. Thanks.

Offline domoaligato

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #457 on: Fri, 30 August 2013, 23:07:03 »
I have found a few but when I open them in there respective program they come up blank. :(

Offline damorgue

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #458 on: Sat, 31 August 2013, 00:37:38 »
Does anyone happen to have a 3ds max file for a cherry esc key?

Please?

I am inclined to not release mine until I have finished all the rows and 1u;1.25u;1.5u and so forth and is absolutely certain that they are correct. What are you going to use it for?

Offline vvp

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #459 on: Sat, 31 August 2013, 03:35:23 »
Go geared, you won't regret it.

Yes, I am planning to. Maybe I could push airtripper more but I do not want to add fans on the stepper driver and the motor. Berry tripper uses M5 bolt and a hobbed pulley as airtripper has. I have only a hobbed bolt at hand. I'll probably design something which will fit nicely in the corner of the traditional Rostock. I do not want to unnecessarily limit the built volume at the extruder location.

mkawa: new OSS slicer:
https://github.com/Ultimaker/CuraEngine
https://github.com/daid/Cura
I did not try it myself. It did not install cleanly on archlinux and I did not bother fixing it.

Offline domoaligato

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #460 on: Sat, 31 August 2013, 04:03:59 »
Does anyone happen to have a 3ds max file for a cherry esc key?

Please?

I am inclined to not release mine until I have finished all the rows and 1u;1.25u;1.5u and so forth and is absolutely certain that they are correct. What are you going to use it for?

as a base to build custom keycaps on.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #461 on: Sat, 31 August 2013, 16:59:46 »
Yes, I am planning to. Maybe I could push airtripper more but I do not want to add fans on the stepper driver and the motor. Berry tripper uses M5 bolt and a hobbed pulley as airtripper has. I have only a hobbed bolt at hand. I'll probably design something which will fit nicely in the corner of the traditional Rostock. I do not want to unnecessarily limit the built volume at the extruder location.
I put the extruder outside the wall, and then later replaced the wall with a tube. I used printed brackets to hold a tube at each back corner, and clamps to hold the extruder and spool mount. It not only resulted in a much more open look, but the frame was more stable as well.

The only wood left is the top and bottom.
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Offline vvp

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #462 on: Sun, 01 September 2013, 06:29:20 »
I put the extruder outside the wall, and then later replaced the wall with a tube. I used printed brackets to hold a tube at each back corner, and clamps to hold the extruder and spool mount. It not only resulted in a much more open look, but the frame was more stable as well.

The next printer I'll do will be more open. I'm thinking about using iron and weld it. But that is far future. I'm lazy to modify what seems to work well enough. But I thought the same about extruder too. Higher print speeds changed that. Maybe I'll only add a support tube to what is already in there.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #463 on: Tue, 17 September 2013, 16:47:03 »
 :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

So the other day I needed some ABS in a hurry for a project and I was out. I knew someone relatively close with some cheap stuff, while the cheap PLA ran okay, the ABS has been a nightmare.  Since then I've learned a lot and changed some parts out for better quality, more durable stuff. I haven't had a jam in months that I couldn't pin directly on myself or simple part failure.

So far I have yet to get more than a single layer from it but I've thrown away 15 feet of scrap. It jammed my new, and pretty much flawlessly operating head so bad that it may be ruined. It nearly broke my extruder, it did kill the bearing that was on the way out, and I'm starting to have doubts that this is even ABS at this point, because I have never seen ABS cook like that.

How the hell do people even use this stuff.
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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #464 on: Tue, 17 September 2013, 23:30:52 »
with all due credit to MBI -- their ABS is high quality, meets tolerances, and processes well -- it's extremely hard to beat toybuilder labs. disclaimer: after discovering Joe/toybuilder was local, I tracked him down and we've become buds, but even so, his filament carries even higher dimensional tolerance than MBI's, and processes just as well. That said, there are definite differences in the ABS formulations. My general rule of thumb is that MBI abs has marginally higher tensile strength but lower yield and ultimate tensile strength, while toybuilder tends to be a carry higher yield strength but lower tensile, meaning it's a bit flexy but less brittle. Keep in mind that I've run mostly blue MBI ABS and mostly pink (yaaaa) TBL filament. This matters quite a bit, as the color additives have a very non-trivial effect on processing.

for dimensional tolerances, TBL filament is streets ahead. If you're having trouble with nozzle pressure, try out Joe's filament.

the only other vendor i've heard enough good things about to try out is ultimaker, but between toybuilder and MBI, i think i have access to every shade i could possibly need.

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #465 on: Wed, 18 September 2013, 20:40:53 »
I've been using Ultimaker,  with great results, I just needed some in a hurry and figured I would give it a second chance.

Also, color does effect the filament strength and temp required to melt and get good adhesion. It also varies if you are using a heated bed and if you are using a cooling fan or not. I have to be pretty precise on my cooling when doing ABS (particularly white), there is a fine line between a good print and getting no adhesion between layers.

I'll be ordering from Toybuilder soon.

MBI, no way in hell, they are insane on price.  Average price shipped to my door...
MBI $85
Ultimaker $55
Toybuilder $47
Generic $24

I can get generic next day, or local pickup (but it stinks for ABS and very limited colors, I may reserve it for when I need PLA in a  hurry). Ultimaker takes 2 days on average and decent colors. Not sure how fast Toybuilder would get here, probably 3 days, but they have a better selection and lower price.

What we need is someone like Newegg to start stocking good filament at a good price.
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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #466 on: Wed, 18 September 2013, 22:17:14 »
crap, i had a post written out about this, and then i refreshed like an idiot. expect things to get more expensive, not cheaper. high quality filament is very difficult to make. economies of scale don't work; they actually work against you. it's not clear to me that FFM will end up as the dominant additive manufacturing technology. sintering is clearly the way forward at the high end, but at the low end, there are so many problems to solve and so few clean solutions. polymers are very complex things that thermoplastics are actually the trickiest polymers to work with because you have to make it wildly unstable, in the FFM case, TWICE while still maintaining chemical and material properties. not to mention you have to re-solve the discretized positioning problem with a tiny tiny budget. this is something that eats up people's lives still today, 40 years after it was first introduced; it's frankly still paleolithic.

but anyway, buy abs from joe, extrude and be happy for now. he's a great guy with a great product and selling it for price that are as low as this product will ever be.

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #467 on: Wed, 18 September 2013, 22:18:36 »
speaking of paleolithic, i'm very much completely useless today. what the hell is that mess up there. hah! bottom line, toybuilder gets all my business except for the exotic filaments right now. nylon!!!!!! yay

that said, i don't think MBI's pricing is all that bad, and their filament is good and they have a good color selection. if they have a color i want, i will buy from them in a second. also, the higher tensile strength may very well be coming with a higher glass transition or at least higher RTI. of course, no one is giving out datasheets (because they're not getting them from their suppliers very likely), but it's not hard to see some pretty big differences between output.
« Last Edit: Wed, 18 September 2013, 22:59:28 by mkawa »

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #468 on: Thu, 19 September 2013, 17:04:04 »
that said, i don't think MBI's pricing is all that bad, and their filament is good and they have a good color selection.
$42 for a pound of extruded plastic? No.

It doesn't cost that much, sorry, no way in hell, not going to #$#%^#$ do it, that is Lego level pricing for extruded plastic. Almost all of it's coming from just a few suppliers in China.
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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #469 on: Thu, 19 September 2013, 18:14:16 »
kg ma'am, not a pound.

plastic is a complicated beast. we think we know what it is because it's so malleable and easy to touch, but the more i learn, the more i realize how much of a miracle it is.

think about the etymology... metal is elemental. a single element, very difficult to work with, in fact NOT plastic except for the very rare and pure elemental metals. plastic should be named after its chemical composition, marginally or partially crystallized polymer chains packed tightly together. but instead we named it plastic because it was the first material we discovered that's malleable, that is plastic. we created it to make cool **** out of. it's malleable but strong. we can make it more or less malleable. we can make it more or less strong. it's up there with the wheel. so amazing!
« Last Edit: Thu, 19 September 2013, 18:17:25 by mkawa »

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Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #470 on: Thu, 19 September 2013, 18:22:00 »
kg ma'am, not a pound.

plastic is a complicated beast. we think we know what it is because it's so malleable and easy to touch, but the more i learn, the more i realize how much of a miracle it is.
I did per pound, I cut the price in half (1Kg= about 2.2 pounds)
You can buy virgin ABS pellets for $2-$7 per pound. Even at $10 per pound, $30 to extrude it is extremely expensive.
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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #471 on: Thu, 19 September 2013, 19:17:49 »
You're welcome to process and extrude these ABS pellets you're finding on the spot market at those prices. I think you'll be surprised at what happens when you attempt to re-extrude the filament you produce (assuming you manage to produce usable filament at all :)) )

Context: I've had an extensive informal education at this point at the hands of several notable people. BLJ, who is frankly, a polymer genius, dcnewman, author of much of the sailfish and mbi mightyboard firmware which is used on not only the mbi mightyboard but ramps clones as well; he is, in addition to an excellent programmer, genius and gentleman, a degreed expert in polymer flow. Further, I regularly discuss injection molding with several friends who do polymer composites research as well as practitioners who own factories which do nothing but injection molding and extrusion. Finally, I have had some short discussions with spot market plastics dealers who have point blank told me that nothing is assured in the world of plastic unless you can trace the batch from point to point with nearly crytographic guarantees.

eta: i almost forgot to mention the honorable Mr. Chiu at TBL! great guy, converse regularly, has taught me much about doing business overseas, fulfillment, etc.

oh my god, and the fine folks at MBI! i've broken so many of their parts that everyone knows me by name at this point. i talk regularly about various aspects of machine performance; where things can be improved, what's going well and what's not, etc.

polymers!
« Last Edit: Thu, 19 September 2013, 19:27:11 by mkawa »

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #472 on: Thu, 19 September 2013, 19:21:05 »
You're welcome to process and extrude these ABS pellets you're finding on the spot market at those prices. I think you'll be surprised at what happens when you attempt to re-extrude the filament you produce (assuming you manage to produce usable filament at all :)) )
I'll find out soon, I know someone with a Lyeman extruder for this very purpose.

Will it work, I have no idea, but I refuse to pay $42 a pound for ABS plastic.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/Vortex case, hand milled case, custom feet, custom paint, Klaxxon key caps, lubed and o-ringed Jailhouse Blues made from vintage Cherry MX Blues, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, removable cord, sound dampened. Winkey blockoff plate | Magicforce 68 w/Outemu Blues |KBT Race S L.E. w/Ergo-Clears, custom WASD keyset | Das Pro w/browns (Costar model) | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #473 on: Thu, 19 September 2013, 19:26:05 »
i like your stinginess and gumption, but prepare for a fair amount of frustration :)

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #474 on: Fri, 20 September 2013, 01:04:30 »
i like your stinginess and gumption, but prepare for a fair amount of frustration :)
I won't have to be first, I'll let the other guy figure it out first. LOL
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/Vortex case, hand milled case, custom feet, custom paint, Klaxxon key caps, lubed and o-ringed Jailhouse Blues made from vintage Cherry MX Blues, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, removable cord, sound dampened. Winkey blockoff plate | Magicforce 68 w/Outemu Blues |KBT Race S L.E. w/Ergo-Clears, custom WASD keyset | Das Pro w/browns (Costar model) | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #475 on: Fri, 20 September 2013, 09:56:40 »
YES! now you're learning! muahahahahahaha

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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #476 on: Sat, 21 September 2013, 17:32:56 »
smallfry the rapid prototyping bot is back in business folks :)



HOORAY!!
« Last Edit: Sat, 21 September 2013, 17:42:59 by mkawa »

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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #477 on: Sun, 22 September 2013, 13:34:29 »
huge thanks to damorgue for cutting up dox's ergodox case for me. first test print!


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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #478 on: Sun, 22 September 2013, 13:36:00 »
and by that i mean the 10th test print, but the first to not completely fail ;)

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #479 on: Sun, 22 September 2013, 13:38:34 »
that said, i don't think MBI's pricing is all that bad, and their filament is good and they have a good color selection.
$42 for a pound of extruded plastic? No.

It doesn't cost that much, sorry, no way in hell, not going to #$#%^#$ do it, that is Lego level pricing for extruded plastic. Almost all of it's coming from just a few suppliers in China.

i can literally show you a dual extruded thing where the two colors have wildly different shrinkage, adhesion and every other mechanical property. ABS is not ABS is not ABS. there are as many formulations of ABS as there are particles in the universe (recall, this is the greek letter 'c'). they range from the truly ****, recycled-but-no-one-will-tell-you-that, to the direct from henkels or dupont or other certified master batch maker with extensive documentation on what it is made out of to measurement error to how it will behave when extruded (ONCE) within tolerances.

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #480 on: Sun, 22 September 2013, 13:52:06 »
cool new autodesk tool for manipulating stls and step files directly: http://blog.123dapp.com/2013/09/introducing-autodesk-meshmixer-awesome-3d-remixes-at-your-fingertips

generates support WITHOUT slicing! hmm..

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Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #481 on: Sun, 22 September 2013, 17:21:39 »
i can literally show you a dual extruded thing where the two colors have wildly different shrinkage, adhesion and every other mechanical property. ABS is not ABS is not ABS. there are as many formulations of ABS as there are particles in the universe (recall, this is the greek letter 'c'). they range from the truly ****, recycled-but-no-one-will-tell-you-that, to the direct from henkels or dupont or other certified master batch maker with extensive documentation on what it is made out of to measurement error to how it will behave when extruded (ONCE) within tolerances.
I'm still not paying MBI prices.


cool new autodesk tool for manipulating stls and step files directly: http://http://blog.123dapp.com/2013/09/introducing-autodesk-meshmixer-awesome-3d-remixes-at-your-fingertips

Great, now if they would fix 123Design... You know, the program meant for 3d printing, that can't import STL files. Who thought that was a good idea?   I'm not redoing everything I've designed from scratch just to use their program.
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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #482 on: Sun, 22 September 2013, 17:42:35 »
STLs are output files. meshmixer is a postprocessor like makerware or repg. you should not be working with solid meshes. you want splines to retain precision. sure, solidworks can import stls, but you literally are not allowed to manipulate them. same with rhino, even maya. no design package speaks voxel meshes. not even game programmers work with polygonal or voxel meshes at the design phase anymore. (in fact, gaming engines do dynamic rendering for LOD purposes but that's neither here nor there..)

you're free to pay any price you can find for filament, but be aware that a statement like "ABS costs X$ in y shape" is an inherently silly and wildly imprecise statement.

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #483 on: Sun, 22 September 2013, 18:06:36 »
STLs are output files. meshmixer is a postprocessor like makerware or repg. you should not be working with solid meshes. you want splines to retain precision. sure, solidworks can import stls, but you literally are not allowed to manipulate them. same with rhino, even maya. no design package speaks voxel meshes. not even game programmers work with polygonal or voxel meshes at the design phase anymore. (in fact, gaming engines do dynamic rendering for LOD purposes but that's neither here nor there..)

you're free to pay any price you can find for filament, but be aware that a statement like "ABS costs X$ in y shape" is an inherently silly and wildly imprecise statement.
STL's may be an output format, but it's standardized format that other 3d printer programs accept. It's a massive oversight in many peoples opinions.


As for ABS, we don't need aerospace quality.
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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #484 on: Sun, 22 September 2013, 20:37:59 »
anyone have a tiny ergodox? :D



abs is literally not used anywhere in aerospace. it's the easiest to fabricate, weakest reasonable plastic to work with basically. and the question, as you well know, isn't some fine tolerance issue, but whether your prints succeed or wildly fail. look at the above, for example. that's due to 2 things: 1) very tiny random striations in my x-motion rods due to my OEM bearings. 2) small amounts of degradation due to having to turn up the extrusion heat by _10C_ to get the jittery head to bond the working layer.

i also have a bent y idler pulley rod, but i think the jitter is largely due to the x-rods. the striations in the x-rod are small enough that i can't feel them, i can only hear them as the bearings slide across in certain situations. the last thing you want to add to that is tons of error somewhere in your polymer chains (ahahaha pun). it's freaking hard enough to FFM, why make it harder to save a few cents per gram.
« Last Edit: Sun, 22 September 2013, 20:40:33 by mkawa »

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline TheFlyingRaccoon

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #485 on: Tue, 24 September 2013, 18:22:29 »
Rowdy reminded my that I had drawn up a Cherry MX key awhile back. Figured I would print it and see how it worked. Only took 15 minutes to print!


Needs some light sanding but it came out great! I might engrave something with the CNC mill into it.
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Offline damorgue

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #486 on: Wed, 02 October 2013, 07:40:00 »
Put a neat object in my folder on your dropbox mkawa. Just something fun if you manage to figure out what it is :)

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #487 on: Wed, 02 October 2013, 11:42:59 »
ooo, new models. still about a week out on the new rods i think.

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline damorgue

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #488 on: Wed, 02 October 2013, 15:19:33 »
Just some for fun parts. They have some interesting properties but no real function.

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #489 on: Wed, 02 October 2013, 18:49:10 »
yep, i see what look like two torture tests for an oscillating print head, and one material properties checking piece. good stuff.

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline vvp

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #490 on: Mon, 07 October 2013, 14:03:43 »
Leslieann,
What retrace feed rate do you use with your geared extruder?
I finally tried a geared extruder. But the retrace time did raise from about 0.05s to about 0.2s. This leads to significantly more visible puddles of plastic at the retrace locations. Slicer can hide them perfectly on the external perimeters but they are left visible on the single perimeter walls and the tops (slicer can do nothing about these) and perimeters of vertical holes (slicer can hide these but it does not - a slicer bug).

Do you still use 12V to power your steppers?
I cannot really turn the extruder stepper quickly enough to shorten the retrace time with 12V power.

The gear ratio is about 1/2.8 so I should not need so huge slowdown but it looks like it is needed to avoid skipping. But is not tuned well yet. I should be able to shorten the retract time to about 0.15s but I doubt it helps enough.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #491 on: Mon, 07 October 2013, 16:24:37 »
Yes, I use 12v, not all boards really like 24v.

I put my retract as high as I can without the extruder motor skipping but yes, I still get some blobs here and there. Cura deals with it better, usually leaving them on corners where you can remove them easier (wire cutters and a nail file). Slic3r tends to put them right in the middle of a flat wall making it harder to smooth and hide. Another trick is try using a lower temp, the hotter your end, the bigger the blobs.

I'm using about 3:1, I thought maybe 4 would be better, but I'm considering making one with 2:1 and seeing if it does better on retraction. Power at 3:1 is more than enough, it's speed that's an issue, so 2:1 might do it. Unfortunately, no one makes an extruder with that ratio, so that means designing it and so far, I have not done well trying to design an extruder.
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Offline vvp

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #492 on: Mon, 07 October 2013, 17:39:42 »
The easiest and quickest is just swapping the gears in the extruder you use (Berry Tripper?).
The idea is something like this:
Code: [Select]
use <MCAD/involute_gears.scad>

gearAxeDist = 25;
tinyTeethCnt = 16;
bigTeethCnt = 32;
boreD = 5;
height = 8;
roughness = 0.1; //plastic surface roughness

gearPitch = (gearAxeDist-2*roughness)*360 / (tinyTeethCnt+bigTeethCnt);
echo("Gear Pitch [mm]: ", gearPitch/180*3.14159);

// tiny gear
translate([gearAxeDist+10,0,0])
gear(
  number_of_teeth = tinyTeethCnt,
  circular_pitch = gearPitch,
  gear_thickness = height,
  hub_thickness = height,
  bore_diameter = boreD,
  backslash = 2*roughness );

// big gear
gear(
  number_of_teeth = bigTeethCnt,
  circular_pitch = gearPitch,
  gear_thickness = height,
  hub_thickness = height,
  bore_diameter = boreD,
  backslash = 2*roughness );

As for as me, I do not know what I'll do. The stepper voltage to RAMPS can be increased up to 35V. With a bit of luck it may mean about 2.5 times the usable speed.
But I do not know whether it will not mean to replace the hotend resistor too and whether stepper current will  not need to be decreased to avoid pololu overheating and who knows what else. And moreover two power sources or a heatbed change too  :rolleyes:

My extruder (own design) kind of works. The code is parametric but has few hacks (and I bet a lot of bugs too (which will show up when different parameters are used)). It is not ready for release.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #493 on: Tue, 08 October 2013, 21:57:39 »
The easiest and quickest is just swapping the gears in the extruder you use (Berry Tripper?).
The idea is something like this:
I actually use herringbone gears and found a generator for it, I just need to make them.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/Vortex case, hand milled case, custom feet, custom paint, Klaxxon key caps, lubed and o-ringed Jailhouse Blues made from vintage Cherry MX Blues, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, removable cord, sound dampened. Winkey blockoff plate | Magicforce 68 w/Outemu Blues |KBT Race S L.E. w/Ergo-Clears, custom WASD keyset | Das Pro w/browns (Costar model) | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline vvp

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #494 on: Wed, 09 October 2013, 05:21:49 »
I actually use herringbone gears and found a generator for it, I just need to make them.
Right, that is a normal gear with non-zero twist argument + add its other half using mirror transformation. But no need for that if you already have a generator  :)

I wanted to use them too, but at the end I realized my mounting makes sure that gears cannot move axially and standard gears are easier to work with.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #495 on: Wed, 09 October 2013, 23:02:04 »
It's not the movement that's an issue, the herringbones run quieter.

Here is a generator.
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:104165
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/Vortex case, hand milled case, custom feet, custom paint, Klaxxon key caps, lubed and o-ringed Jailhouse Blues made from vintage Cherry MX Blues, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, removable cord, sound dampened. Winkey blockoff plate | Magicforce 68 w/Outemu Blues |KBT Race S L.E. w/Ergo-Clears, custom WASD keyset | Das Pro w/browns (Costar model) | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline vvp

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #496 on: Thu, 10 October 2013, 04:28:41 »
It's not the movement that's an issue, the herringbones run quieter.
Ok, I did not know that. It is a good reason to use them.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #497 on: Fri, 11 October 2013, 16:36:25 »
It's not the movement that's an issue, the herringbones run quieter.
Ok, I did not know that. It is a good reason to use them.
It's not just herringbone gears, it's why we use angular cut gears on everything we can.
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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #498 on: Fri, 11 October 2013, 16:52:45 »
totally OT but i LOVE the whine of straight cut gears transferring huge amounts of power. rallycross cars are some of my favorite examples, because they push out HUGE amounts of torque with very very high shaft accel and decel. example:
feature=player_detailpage#t=81

hear that whine as the gearbox spins up? it's like music to me.

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline vvp

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #499 on: Sun, 13 October 2013, 05:50:35 »
Well, straight gears on an extruder do not whine like that  :)
Why did they use stright gears?

I decided to try moving from 12V to 24V for stepper motors. I'll let you know the result. I guess it will be done in a month or so.