Author Topic: [IC] Afterkeys, an easy to use alternative to mechmarket. (LOCKED FOR NOW)  (Read 9551 times)

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Offline Xynerorias

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Locking this for now. It's still something I have in the back of my head and I'd like to do but this is too far in the future and it's irrelevant to have an IC about this atm.

If you didn't see the original post, the basic premise of this would be a "StockX for mechanical keyboards" without all the trading-fluff. Have some kind of catalogue of everything, people could add their stuff to the catalogue depending on the state of the product (unused/sealed/lightly used/heavy use/non-functional, etc...), place buy orders, contact the seller/buyer, etc... It would be much more easy to use, and welcoming to people new to the hobby than mechmarket currently is.

But like I said, way too far in the future, still just a concept, so I'm locking the topic.
« Last Edit: Sat, 11 April 2020, 08:44:05 by Xynerorias »

Offline Xynerorias

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Re: [IC] Afterkeys, an easy to use alternative to mechmarket.
« Reply #1 on: Thu, 25 April 2019, 09:19:28 »
Reserved for potential updates, even if we're extremely far from it.

Also I spoke to Signature, maybe this will be moved to Off-Topic, maybe not, dunno yet.

Offline unluckyxiii

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Re: [IC] Afterkeys, an easy to use alternative to mechmarket.
« Reply #2 on: Thu, 25 April 2019, 09:24:14 »
Sounds fun. I’m a product designer and I had a similar idea too. Maybe I can contribute and work together.


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Offline nguyenhimself

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[IC] Afterkeys, an easy to use alternative to mechmarket.
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 25 April 2019, 09:33:02 »
If you know about StockX, then I hope you have heard of its hidden negative influences, how it is slowly but effectively killing the soul of sneaker culture.

Read that article, and then come back and tell me if that’s what you want to happen to this silly niche hobby of ours, turning it into a pure engine of hypebeasts and day-one flipping.

The implications! Think of the implications, goddammit! Don’t just blindly throw tech and capitalism at a problem.
« Last Edit: Thu, 25 April 2019, 09:35:57 by nguyenhimself »

Offline ReDsNoTDeAd

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Re: [IC] Afterkeys, an easy to use alternative to mechmarket.
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 25 April 2019, 09:36:33 »
As much as I love the idea, I think the central feature of a marketplace is that everyone goes there. I know you want to test your programming ability on a real project - and that's commendable, I'm not sure how good of an idea it is to fracture the market.

Here's why I'm okay with mechmarket:

1. Everyone already has a reddit account
2. Very easy to point newcomers to /r/mechmarket rather than having them sign up for another account elsewhere
3. Having to check 2 sites rather than crawling /new would be even more tedious
4. The site still belongs to Reddit, so owners trying to monetize against the will of the users is basically impossible.

But hey, don't let me stop you - maybe we'll all just end up abandoning mechmarket and joining AfterKeys. I'm excited to see what this turns into, just thought I'd give you some points to overcome.

Offline unluckyxiii

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Re: [IC] Afterkeys, an easy to use alternative to mechmarket.
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 25 April 2019, 09:38:51 »
Yes no doubt that platform is driving sneaker price up and encouraging reseller culture. Hate it as someone who just wanna buy and wear versus people who buy and sell. But with or without that platform it’s still happening, slowly.

My idea wasn’t so much like OP’s StockX, but more of a wallet where u snap and display your caps and people can browse and propose trade using their wallet.


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Offline digid3ar

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Re: [IC] Afterkeys, an easy to use alternative to mechmarket.
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 25 April 2019, 09:46:29 »
we could bring some info from the /mm with the reddit API, looks like a good project but it needs to land the idea. with more details and then maybe we could help in a open source project in github.

Offline futurecrime

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Re: [IC] Afterkeys, an easy to use alternative to mechmarket.
« Reply #7 on: Thu, 25 April 2019, 09:56:21 »
Would be interesting to see something like discogs which acts as a kind of wiki of everything keyboard related and also has a marketplace built in. But maybe the hobby isn't big enough to support something like that. At least for now.

Offline 8six753o9

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Re: [IC] Afterkeys, an easy to use alternative to mechmarket.
« Reply #8 on: Thu, 25 April 2019, 10:03:09 »
If you know about StockX, then I hope you have heard of its hidden negative influences, how it is slowly but effectively killing the soul of sneaker culture.

Read that article, and then come back and tell me if that’s what you want to happen to this silly niche hobby of ours, turning it into a pure engine of hypebeasts and day-one flipping.
It’s already happening now. Good examples I’ve seen recent are TGR Keyboards, GMK Olivia, and GMK Serika.

Offline Rubbermilitia

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Re: [IC] Afterkeys, an easy to use alternative to mechmarket.
« Reply #9 on: Thu, 25 April 2019, 10:03:40 »
Also a software developer, also had a similar idea, and here's why I dropped the project instead of pursuing it (this was initially typed up in response to mykeebs.com)

I don't want another platform to worry about, so personally I don't b/s/t on anything besides mechmarket. Most others probably also feel this way. Sellers need to come to mechmarket if they want access to the largest interested user base anyway. So this just gives sellers yet another platform that they can post on, but there's no real point, because all the buyers are on r/mm.
Also, in order for me to have any interest in another platform, it should have ALL the features of r/mm, plus a bunch of features that are missing. This is not the case for agoramech for example (not sure if its the case for your idea)
Lastly, and probably most importantly, I like that this platform (r/mm) is not owned by anyone except the community, and I would like it to stay that way. Agoramech and your platform are owned by a specific party with their own interests. That leaves plenty of space for abuse of the market. Not to mention that uptime is not guaranteed, and even more worrying, retention of buy/sell history is not guaranteed.

TLDR this just feels like another watered-down BST platform, and I don't see any reason why it would or should replace r/mm as the place to BST keyboards. The middle-man warehouse where products are inspected was the best part of your idea (like the shoe trading platform), and I think you said you wouldn't include it. it would drive up prices anyway, if you did.

PS few more super important reasons I prefer mm:
1. I believe BST platforms have healthier and more organic growth when they are community-owned and community-driven
2. You won't find the dedication of the mm mod team anywhere else, and good luck organizing something similar on your own platform without paying for it
3. already mentioned, but mm sits on top of reddit's infrastructure for guarantee of security and historical data retention
4. This idea comes up very often from clever software devs, and the most useful feature in my mind would be an integrated wiki for ease of product pricing history and information- but this would require an insane amount of data input work (and would also require users posting listings to follow specific rules so that their data can be properly picked up by an algorithm- which is hard to force users to do unless you impose posting guidelines, which would drive users away)
« Last Edit: Thu, 25 April 2019, 10:06:03 by Rubbermilitia »

Offline nguyenhimself

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[IC] Afterkeys, an easy to use alternative to mechmarket.
« Reply #10 on: Thu, 25 April 2019, 10:10:58 »
If you know about StockX, then I hope you have heard of its hidden negative influences, how it is slowly but effectively killing the soul of sneaker culture.

Read that article, and then come back and tell me if that’s what you want to happen to this silly niche hobby of ours, turning it into a pure engine of hypebeasts and day-one flipping.
It’s already happening now. Good examples I’ve seen recent are TGR Keyboards, GMK Olivia, and GMK Serika.
Well then don’t encourage it.
Don’t create new incentives which will foster that type of behaviors.
StockX turns systematic flipping into the norm, the standard. It’s terrible.
« Last Edit: Thu, 25 April 2019, 10:13:30 by nguyenhimself »

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: [IC] Afterkeys, an easy to use alternative to mechmarket.
« Reply #11 on: Thu, 25 April 2019, 10:38:21 »
Paging massdrop, here is your newest feature for keycap group buys.

Charge an 'afterkeys' fee at the time of purchase to give group buy members a way out of buyers remorse when they receive keycaps and want to sell them immediately, they just send them back and massdrop sells them at a slight markup, refunding the original buyer minus the 'afterkeys' fee.

But I'm not following the mechmarket is hard train of thought.

I'm not even a reddit fan and I am able to use mechmarket and have used it many times to both buy and sell, typically very quickly. I even have notifications setup for those few things I might want to buy.

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Offline lightsout714

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Re: [IC] Afterkeys, an easy to use alternative to mechmarket.
« Reply #12 on: Thu, 25 April 2019, 11:06:41 »
This could be nice if done well. Count me in as one that hates the mech market. There really needs to be some sort of filtering. Part of the problem for me is probably that after being away from the scene for many years, I don't recognize the majority of the titles.

So often have to click to find out if it's a board, keycap set, artisan, etc.

Although I really don't like the idea of money being held up. I just finally got past that point on eBay and what a pain it was.

Is there much fraud going on that just using PayPal is not working?

Offline AlcoholEnthusiast

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Re: [IC] Afterkeys, an easy to use alternative to mechmarket.
« Reply #13 on: Thu, 25 April 2019, 11:44:24 »
I am not in love with r/mm. But I am not in love with stockx either.

It would have to be closer to say grailed than stockx. In that we don't need a proxy to validate in this hobby. There are very few fakes, and I have rarely if ever heard of people trying to pass fakes off as real.

Also I just don't see a reason to pay a 3rd party a percentage when r/mm exists. Even if it's ugly and is bad for searching, and all the other reddit negatives.

Offline Hokabuki

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Re: [IC] Afterkeys, an easy to use alternative to mechmarket.
« Reply #14 on: Thu, 25 April 2019, 11:53:55 »
This idea has been tried and failed a number of times. Standardizing inventory would be a useful feature similar to how Amazon Marketplace works. However, building and maintaining inventory lists for all artisans, key sets, and boards would be a nightmare. Inventory would need to be split by key cap kit, board options, etc. Then do you force sellers to sell individual kits even if they don’t want to split it up? Mech market is kind of a pain, but it might be the best solution for now.

Offline TheKeyCompany

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Re: [IC] Afterkeys, an easy to use alternative to mechmarket.
« Reply #15 on: Thu, 25 April 2019, 12:06:58 »
Ive tossed an idea like this around in my head for some time. I see the potential, especially as this community continues to grow. Good luck! LMK if you need any resources!

Offline Rubbermilitia

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Re: [IC] Afterkeys, an easy to use alternative to mechmarket.
« Reply #16 on: Thu, 25 April 2019, 12:07:20 »
This idea has been tried and failed a number of times. Standardizing inventory would be a useful feature similar to how Amazon Marketplace works. However, building and maintaining inventory lists for all artisans, key sets, and boards would be a nightmare. Inventory would need to be split by key cap kit, board options, etc. Then do you force sellers to sell individual kits even if they don’t want to split it up? Mech market is kind of a pain, but it might be the best solution for now.

> Standardizing inventory would be a useful feature
Agreed 100% on this, if someone wants to create something to help BST in our niche, a repository of product and pricing information which integrates with mm is the most likely to succeed.


Offline jrfhoutx

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Re: [IC] Afterkeys, an easy to use alternative to mechmarket.
« Reply #18 on: Thu, 25 April 2019, 13:55:56 »
Would be interesting to see something like discogs which acts as a kind of wiki of everything keyboard related and also has a marketplace built in. But maybe the hobby isn't big enough to support something like that. At least for now.

A keyboard version of discogs would be great, and while it's still relatively small is the time to start on it, before it gets too unmanageable...

Offline derznation

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Re: [IC] Afterkeys, an easy to use alternative to mechmarket.
« Reply #19 on: Thu, 25 April 2019, 14:12:49 »
One consideration I don't think anybody brought up was that the majority of high level trades on r/mm involve trades of goods, not paypal. 
I get the notion that there is a big disconnect between what someone would trade a cap for vs. what they would sell it for, and chances are people wouldn't even want to sell their high tier caps.
How do you account for this? If someone said "I want to trade my Grimace" would they just get a stream of random cap offerings? How are those sorted or prioritized? There is no auction equivalent like with money because it's not standardized (something already brought up).

I see this as the biggest gap with your proposal because it's unusable for a big portion of the activity currently happening on MechMarket

Offline lightsout714

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Re: [IC] Afterkeys, an easy to use alternative to mechmarket.
« Reply #20 on: Thu, 25 April 2019, 15:02:36 »
This idea has been tried and failed a number of times. Standardizing inventory would be a useful feature similar to how Amazon Marketplace works. However, building and maintaining inventory lists for all artisans, key sets, and boards would be a nightmare. Inventory would need to be split by key cap kit, board options, etc. Then do you force sellers to sell individual kits even if they don’t want to split it up? Mech market is kind of a pain, but it might be the best solution for now.
This would actually be pretty sweet if it somehow worked. An amazon for just used Mech stuff. :drool:

Offline tskiller

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Re: [IC] Afterkeys, an easy to use alternative to mechmarket.
« Reply #21 on: Thu, 25 April 2019, 15:43:07 »
Eh, gonna be honest I don't think we need to fragment the marketplace for second hand keyboard stuff any more than it already is.

Offline Rayndalf

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Re: [IC] Afterkeys, an easy to use alternative to mechmarket.
« Reply #22 on: Fri, 26 April 2019, 00:22:29 »
If you know about StockX, then I hope you have heard of its hidden negative influences, how it is slowly but effectively killing the soul of sneaker culture.

Read that article, and then come back and tell me if that’s what you want to happen to this silly niche hobby of ours, turning it into a pure engine of hypebeasts and day-one flipping.
It’s already happening now. Good examples I’ve seen recent are TGR Keyboards, GMK Olivia, and GMK Serika.
There's a distinct different between day one flipping (buying an item of limited supply and immediately selling it for markup), and participating in a GMK group buy that has room for everyone. Anyone could tie up $130 ordering a keyset during the group-buy period, then sell it once sheep people see photos on r/mk and see other people liking a colorway they previously scoffed at. This isn't about buy bots or deception, simply people with more money to spend on keysets or more faith in a particular designer's vision (and are willing to fund the production of things they like directly). GMK Serika is a special case, because it was clearly a great set (by a designer who clearly knows how to match samples and renders) but everyone blew their budget on Laser.

TGR boards, artisans and other FCFS or raffle sales will always be plagued by demands radically outstripping supply, but that only encourages other people to start making their own customs and artisans, but Alice hunters deserve far more sympathy than the 'wait and see' crowd.

Offline tex_live_utility

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Re: [IC] Afterkeys, an easy to use alternative to mechmarket.
« Reply #23 on: Fri, 26 April 2019, 03:17:53 »
I'd rather devote our community efforts to a price tracker that sits on top of existing platforms (Reddit, Ebay, Geekhack, Deskthority).

If you know about StockX, then I hope you have heard of its hidden negative influences, how it is slowly but effectively killing the soul of sneaker culture.

Read that article, and then come back and tell me if that’s what you want to happen to this silly niche hobby of ours, turning it into a pure engine of hypebeasts and day-one flipping.
It’s already happening now. Good examples I’ve seen recent are TGR Keyboards, GMK Olivia, and GMK Serika.
There's a distinct different between day one flipping (buying an item of limited supply and immediately selling it for markup), and participating in a GMK group buy that has room for everyone. Anyone could tie up $130 ordering a keyset during the group-buy period, then sell it once sheep people see photos on r/mk and see other people liking a colorway they previously scoffed at. This isn't about buy bots or deception, simply people with more money to spend on keysets or more faith in a particular designer's vision (and are willing to fund the production of things they like directly). GMK Serika is a special case, because it was clearly a great set (by a designer who clearly knows how to match samples and renders) but everyone blew their budget on Laser.

TGR boards, artisans and other FCFS or raffle sales will always be plagued by demands radically outstripping supply, but that only encourages other people to start making their own customs and artisans, but Alice hunters deserve far more sympathy than the 'wait and see' crowd.

Serika was also run at a time when the GMK keycap market (and the community as a whole) was smaller, and there was a lot of feather ruffling over the last-minute addition of Japanese sublegends. That turned a lot of people off (including myself). Nowadays it would probably have sold 500 units and it wouldn't be fetching more than $250 aftermarket.

If a few chumps wanna pay $600 for some plastic it's probably not the worst thing. The real issue is that it keeps other would-be buyers out of the market, because instead of selling at a reasonable price, potential sellers will start holding and waiting for another "big" buyer, which dries up the supply and ironically therefore drives up the "natural" price towards the silly flip price.

Will this be exacerbated by a StockX-for-Keyboards? Maybe. Part of the appeal of GH, r/mm, etc. is that it keeps out causal flippers. Yes, this is gatekeeping. Yes, it's worth it. If you make trading too easy, too friendly, you let in all kinds of garbage that otherwise would be kept out by the burden of making a Reddit account, building karma, taking timestamp photos, etc.

That said, with a few individual exceptions people tend to sell keyboards before buying a keyboard, especially when it's an item that has an inflated price. Let's not forget that money is ultimately a store of value -- let's say you're willing to trade your Duck Blackbird and your TGR 910 for a Jane v2, but nobody wants to take that trade? You just sell the Blackbird and the 910 and then hunt for anyone willing to sell you a Jane V2 for a similar price to what you just made. Same is true for keysets and artisans.

I won't say that some prices haven't been inflated due to media/forum hype and FOMO, but I wonder to what extent these are really people just dropping cash out of their pocket, versus "indirect trades" where the cash is really just a temporary value store.

As much as I love the idea, I think the central feature of a marketplace is that everyone goes there. I know you want to test your programming ability on a real project - and that's commendable, I'm not sure how good of an idea it is to fracture the market.

Here's why I'm okay with mechmarket:

1. Everyone already has a reddit account
2. Very easy to point newcomers to /r/mechmarket rather than having them sign up for another account elsewhere
3. Having to check 2 sites rather than crawling /new would be even more tedious
4. The site still belongs to Reddit, so owners trying to monetize against the will of the users is basically impossible.

But hey, don't let me stop you - maybe we'll all just end up abandoning mechmarket and joining AfterKeys. I'm excited to see what this turns into, just thought I'd give you some points to overcome.

In addition to this, it's somewhat easy to vet an account by looking at their posting history across the Reddit platform. Not to mention several years now of trade history. You make a new platform, you potentially throw that all away.
« Last Edit: Fri, 26 April 2019, 03:20:46 by tex_live_utility »
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Offline fine_italian_leather

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Re: [IC] Afterkeys, an easy to use alternative to mechmarket.
« Reply #24 on: Fri, 26 April 2019, 03:40:14 »
I've been considering building something like this for ~2 years, alternatively a site that scrapes mechmarket data and improves presentation and searchability. If I would, I'd build and launch an MVP on my own before looking for collaborators or partners.

Offline dexie

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Re: [IC] Afterkeys, an easy to use alternative to mechmarket.
« Reply #25 on: Fri, 26 April 2019, 03:45:19 »
I think approaching it by first scraping r/mm is the best way to go. If anything I am ready to help technically (.net core / react / angular / typescript).
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Offline OracleKev

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Re: [IC] Afterkeys, an easy to use alternative to mechmarket.
« Reply #26 on: Fri, 26 April 2019, 04:34:52 »
You should first state what problems you are solving and then explain how this is a solution to that problem.

Whatever the problems are with the mechmarket, I doubt it will be solved by a centralized third party.
But willing to give a benefit of doubt.

Offline Rise

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Re: [IC] Afterkeys, an easy to use alternative to mechmarket.
« Reply #27 on: Fri, 26 April 2019, 06:14:53 »
I'm gonna start by saying this is a dope idea, with a super interesting conceptual product and a mirror to another hobby which relies heavily on enthusiasts. However the problems with this hobby that make your thing nearly universally non-viable comes in a couple factors, one being that StockX has actually severely accelerated the flipper mindset with the use of "who gets the better bots to collect the most rare shoes the fastest to flip at 3x cost".

I think if you wanted to put your skills to good use, a good focus right now is streamlining the hobby to make it easier for the "commonplace hobbyist" to create something new for the community, a great example is Pngu's "keycaprenders" website that allows anyone with no rendering experience to walk in, choose the colors they want, and run an IC and eventually a group buy based solely on the whim of the idea. That makes it incredibly appealing to those without the skillset to render which in turn pumps out more keysets to the community. If you can find something that requires streamlining in this hobby and can actively streamline it, I recommend that's a better focus of your time. Still a very cool idea and super commendable, just think more research needs to be done before trying to introduce a third party stylized marketplace on a bunch of rare products, this will just add another layer of up-charging which can severely stunt a growing a hobby that isn't as massive of a market as the multi-billion dollar shoe industry.

Super glad you're at least putting effort into creating something dope for the community, always commendable.  :thumb:

Offline keygod

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Re: [IC] Afterkeys, an easy to use alternative to mechmarket.
« Reply #28 on: Mon, 24 February 2020, 04:16:24 »
You are very talented at doing, given that you are still not quite professional. My friend also studied as a web designer, sometimes referred to https://au.edubirdie.com/buy-assignment-online and studied new technologies constantly. Of course he had to buy assignment online, but in comparison with him you are the god XD
« Last Edit: Tue, 25 February 2020, 07:27:33 by keygod »