Well, the argument is about whether or not Topre boards are worth their money. So the point he was trying to make about the rubber, was that rubber is a cheaper material than the plastic used in Cherry MX switches (which may or may not be true; I argued on the other hand that other parts of the Topre switch probably make it more expensive to make than Cherry MX switches).
Incorrect. I made a statement on the actuation mechanism, and I fail to see (as well as others) how you could take that as an insult, unless you find it personally insulting that I say what a Topre board has inside of it. I don't know when you thought that rubber was cheaper than plastic, but it was probably right about the year that plastic was first invented.
I have no idea where you're getting the idea that I was offended with what you said about Topre having rubber in their switches. Yes, Topre do indeed have rubber in their switches, it is a fact. It is not something I feel insulted by.
Reading comprehension fail #1.
I hope you remember, the whole point of our argument, is to argue whether or not Topre boards are worth the price premium. As I understand it, you're trying to argue that Topre are NOT worth the price premium, so I thought you brought up the fact that Topre boards have rubber, to make the claim that it isn't worth the price (I, on the other hand, as mentioned before, believe Topre boards are worth the price because there are other aspects of Topre switches, which I think are higher quality).
Also, about the Vortex caps, you're quite wrong also. They have very thick PBT, as can be evidenced in the picture, which are significantly thicker than that used on the Topre, and saying that they've come in is both a bald-faced lie and implausible, considering that it's stronger and higher quality than those on the Topre. Double-shot, also. By the way, it's quite obviously a lie when you talk about hearing reports of the spacebars coming in warped because very few have come in and no reviews have been posted. I know that you want to convince yourself that Topre is better, but in this aspect, it's not.
You seem to have missed the two links that I posted, where users specifically say, their Vortex PBT keycap spacebars came in warped:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37999.msg912701#msg912701http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37999.msg912998#msg912998(For some reason, my browser has a problem with going to link #2; it goes to the wrong post, for some reason, but look up reply #646 in that thread).
Reading comprehension fail #2. You are proving yourself as someone who doesn't read what he responds to carefully, and therefore has no idea what he's talking about.
They have very thick PBT, as can be evidenced in the picture, which are significantly thicker than that used on the Topre, and saying that they've come in is both a bald-faced lie and implausible.
Read the links that I posted above. People are saying they've received theirs. Is that me lying, or you completely missing on what's being said around here?
Reading comprehension fail #3.
I have seen from forum posts, this being an example: "But as said Topre switches tend to get heavier over time as the rubber ages. I think there was an experiment done not too long ago... by Ripster in the name of keyboard science." that Topre become quite unpleasantly stiff as they get older. Topre housing is quite nice and its mechanism is more advanced than that of the Cherry, which neither makes it superior nor, as Topre has said before, more durable.
What you're saying doesn't make sense. You admit Topre housing is quite nice, and its mechanism is more advanced than that of Cherry, but that doesn't make it more superior?
In my opinion (notice the words "in my opinion"), it does make the keyboard superior, because it provides a MUCH, MUCH smoother typing experience than Cherry MX switches. If you haven't used Topre switches before, why are you commenting on it?
As far as durability goes, the durability is going to depend on the rubber, no matter how much better quality the housing and mechanism are. Ok, so maybe Topre switches won't last longer than Cherry MX switches. But because of their superior housing and switch mechanism, Topre switches provide a smoother typing feel, so I like Topre better. And this is why I think Topre boards are worth their money.
For weight, you compare against a single brand. The simple fact that a Topre switch is larger and heavier (x87) would probably account for a significant amount of that, but wonderful. It weighs more, that's not indicative of build quality. A Unicomp fullsize weighs 5.5 pounds, so a TKL would weigh at least 3.5, making it much heavier, and in your comparison method, much better than a Topre. Topre falls again.
You're comparing it with a Unicomp, though. Yea, maybe a Unicomp may be heavier, but maybe all the other parts are cheaper to make? From what I've read, its quality is not quite up to par as the original Model M's. So, yea, maybe the Unicomp has the Topre beat when it comes to the weight of the chassis, but all its other parts, such as the switches don't cost as much.
Oh, and when I use the argument rationally with the same comparison, you then tell me that I'm wrong. You said that they were built more solidly on account of their weight.
No, if you read what I said about Topre vs. Filco boards, I specifically wrote:
1. Topre boards have a stiffer, and heavier body than Filco boards.
I did write the word "stiffer", as an addition to "heavier", which implicates stiffness and weight as two separate characteristics, not correlated characteristics. In other words, what I wrote should tell you, that I'm open to the possibility that something may be stiffer, yet lighter, or something being heavier, yet weaker. So, my point was, yes, maybe a Unicomp is heavier, but has overall more shoddy construction, which would explain its cheaper pricing. Topre boards are BOTH stiffer and heavier than Filco boards, which would probably explain its higher price over Filco boards.
Reading comprehension fail #4.
the increase in build quality is absolutely worth the price of a Topre board, to me.
And this is why I think it's disingenuous, or a half-lie, when people say, Topre are "just rubber dome" boards. Because when they say that, they completely ignore (perhaps on purpose) just how much better built Topre boards are.
Like I said, if someone recognizes the improved build quality of Topre boards, and yet dislike them out of subjective preference, I have absolutely no problem with that. Let's just not lie about what Topre boards are.
How exactly are Topre boards so much higher quality than a Filco, so as to justify even a $100 premium, in the case of the HHKB? Also, which Topre boards are we talking about. I can think of several well-known quality issues with the HHKB and the FC660C.
Well, do you or have you owned a Topre before? You talk as if you've owned the HHKB and FC600C... or did you merely read about the quality issues?
1. Topre boards have a stiffer, and heavier body than Filco boards.
And here is your argument, enshrined so that you might not edit it and that I can provide all of my evidence. However, if you would pay some money for a really strong keyboard and you admit that weight is not what makes a board (even though it is abundant in this one), I suggest this over a Topre: http://www.chassis-plans.com/Rackmount-Keyboard-Displays/MFT-121-Military-Full-Travel-Keyboard.htm You say here that weight and stiffness, which the Unicomp clearly has in spades over the taffee of the Realforces in comparison.
What? I don't understand what you wrote there. Also, notice that weight and stiffness were only 1 of the 3 points I made, about Topre being of higher quality. The reasons why I like Topre boards include characteristics other than just weight and stiffness.
Reading comprehension fail #5, plus purposefully misinterpreting what I write.
Moreover, you insult other's opinions when you yourself do the same thing. You rely on "reports" of bad vortex caps, while you slam him for reading reviews of the FC660C and other Realforce boards.
No... I'm bringing up reports of bad Vortex caps, because you guys are bringing up reports of bad Topre boards, and making opinions on them without even owning them.
So you want me to stop commenting on the Vortex caps? Then stop stop commenting on Topre boards when you haven't even owned them.
So to summarize, you made a lie, by saying "I don't know... did you look at the pictures of the Vortex PBT's? They look kinda cheap, and I've read reports of some of the space bars coming in warped", a pretty pathetic claim when they haven't come in an appreciable number and warping isn't complained about.
Yea... this will be my third time mentioning the links, where people complain about warped Vortex spacebars:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37999.msg912701#msg912701http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37999.msg912998#msg912998I'm not lying here. You clearly don't read everything what people say.
You then assumed that I was slighting Topre "So the point he was trying to make about the rubber, was that rubber is a cheaper material than the plastic used in Cherry MX switches", embarrassingly wrong as it's quite obvious that I was not when I said "Topre switches use a rubber dome and have a shorter lifespan".
I was making a point about how Topre boards are worth their money, and you respond by saying, that since Topre switches use rubber dome, they are not worth their money. I have no idea how you'd make the inference that Topre are not worth their money, by referring to parts that are more expensive. Clearly, your intention was to bring up a part that is seemingly cheaper to make (in this case, the rubber), to try to prove that Topre are not worth their money.
You don't even understand what YOU write yourself. Reading comprehension fail #6. Or you're just lying.
These would be two independent ideas, which would be obvious to those educated in the English language.
Plus personal attacks.
Please stop. I have never seen a fanboy of any keyboard (Model M, F, Cherry, ALPS, Matias, whatever) continue ragging on about it with such superiority and conviction that they are correct as rabid Topre jerkers.
And... I've never seen someone get so offended about someone liking a Topre board before.
So, people can't talk about how much they like Topre boards, but you can talk about how you dislike Topre all you want? Not sure that's fair.
As far as I can tell, it's YOU who has a problem with people who like Topre. You can say "opinions are subjective" as much as you want, but you're only saying that to disregard other people's preferences for Topre, which is hypocrisy in and of itself.
That said, I wasn't even here trying to talk about how much "better" Topre is than other boards. I was just trying to show why Topre boards might be more expensive than others: namely, its construction, quality of keycaps, and quality of switches. If you want to argue about these, fine; it'll be an argument about facts.
I have no idea why this even turned into an argument about what's "better". That's an argument you decided to bring up, which tells us it's you who has the problem.
