So just how are Topres for gaming?

[saturnotaku]

I've been experimenting with a few keyboards lately and have determined that browns are the MX switch I like the most in terms of a balance of gaming and typing. I don't like the feel or noise of blues and greens, while blacks and clears are too heavy. I'm using a KUL ES-87 with said brown switches at the moment, and it's working well.

Out of sheer curiosity, and the fact that I just got a job that pays me 20% more than my previous one, I purchased a Realforce 87U that was modified to essentially a uniform 45g (a couple non-essential keys are 55g). In reading as many threads as I could about it, and given my affinity for MX browns, it seemed like a uniform 45g Topre would be the way to go for someone who wants good typing and gaming performance. But how well suited are Topre keyboards for gaming anyway? I play only single-player games and mostly FPS/action, so no DOTA, Starcraft, or the like. The Topre sound is quite alluring and would be a nice contrast to MX switches, not to mention the fact that it would certainly keep my wife happy in terms of noise, or rather the lack thereof.

Even if the Realforce ends up being OK for my usage, I do have a couple hangups about it. First is the much smaller keycap market. I have a set of PBT double shots that I can put on the ES-87 that cost me only $36. Replacement caps for the Topre would be 5x that. As a Mac user who dual boots between OS X and Windows, the other big issue for the Realforce is the lack of a DIP switch to swap the Windows and Alt keys as there is on the ES-87 and other MX boards. I suppose it's something I could get used to, but it's a really nice convenience.

That's enough rambling. I am very eager to try out Topre for the first time. If it ends up not working out at home, I can always use it at work, but I'd like to hear of others' experiences.

[cphead]

They work for FPS but they're not ideal cause you're forced to bottom out on each keystroke. When I'm playing CS with topre I definitely get the itch to switch to an MX board. Now that you own both you'll be able to switch freely between the two  (that said, topre is best switch #topre4lyfe)

The great thing about topre boards is their keycaps are so snazzy you won't need to switch them out (:

[Flyersfan1]

I agree with cphead, when I owned a 87u 55g, my fingers would get fatigued rather quickly when playing FPS games like counter strike, mostly because I tend to mash WASD somewhat feverishly during matches.  I wouldn't say it was bad, but like you, I always had an itch and felt more comfortable using my filco with red switches.  For other games like World of Warcraft and Far Cry, I found the 55g keys to be fine since I wasn't as reliant on the keyboard and was gaming at a more casual pace.

I have done some gaming with my happy hacking keyboard as well, while the initial transition of gaming on such a small keyboard was a bit of an adjustment, I actually found it quite comfortable to use even in FPS games.  I had to just learn some muscle memory in remembering to use my pinky to trigger the function key if I needed access to the function row.  So I wouldn't say topre is bad for gaming by any means, it may just take a little bit of time getting used to depending on whatever layout you're using, or switch weight.  Good luck, and I hope you enjoy the 87u 55g, it's still one of my favorite keyboards ever!

[dorkvader]

They work for FPS but they're not ideal cause you're forced to bottom out on each keystroke. When I'm playing CS with topre I definitely get the itch to switch to an MX board. Now that you own both you'll be able to switch freely between the two  (that said, topre is best switch #topre4lyfe)


You don't have to bottom out a topre, at least I never bottom out mine.

Playing FPS with a light keyboard (my topre is only 30g) is a lot like playing with reds: if you can learn control (young padawan) you can gain benefits to speed and agility, otherwise you'll just bottom out all the time and be slow.

The great thing about topre boards is their keycaps are so snazzy you won't need to switch them out (:

The caps on mine are some of the worst dyesub PBT keycaps I have ever seen. The legends are inconsistant size, most are misprinted, they have huge issues with fade / bleed. All the dyesubs I own by unicomp, IBM, imsto, SP, alphameric(devlin?), NMB and other are better by far.

[byker]

I have never had an issue with gaming on topre. I probably prefer my blacks if I was just playing fps games, but overall topre is amazing! 

[saturnotaku]

I agree with cphead, when I owned a 87u 55g, my fingers would get fatigued rather quickly when playing FPS games like counter strike, mostly because I tend to mash WASD somewhat feverishly during matches.  I wouldn't say it was bad, but like you, I always had an itch and felt more comfortable using my filco with red switches.  For other games like World of Warcraft and Far Cry, I found the 55g keys to be fine since I wasn't as reliant on the keyboard and was gaming at a more casual pace.

I have done some gaming with my happy hacking keyboard as well, while the initial transition of gaming on such a small keyboard was a bit of an adjustment, I actually found it quite comfortable to use even in FPS games.  I had to just learn some muscle memory in remembering to use my pinky to trigger the function key if I needed access to the function row.  So I wouldn't say topre is bad for gaming by any means, it may just take a little bit of time getting used to depending on whatever layout you're using, or switch weight.  Good luck, and I hope you enjoy the 87u 55g, it's still one of my favorite keyboards ever!

I'm getting a 45g Realforce as I figured it would be closest to the browns in terms of weight and feel.

BTW, Flyers suck - Blackhawks 4 life! 

[calavera]

Absolutely GREAT!

[pr0ximity]

As a Mac user who dual boots between OS X and Windows, the other big issue for the Realforce is the lack of a DIP switch to swap the Windows and Alt keys as there is on the ES-87 and other MX boards. I suppose it's something I could get used to, but it's a really nice convenience.

As a tip, if you go to System Preferences -> Keyboard -> Modifier Keys, you can swap the Alt and Win keys for all USB keyboards. I'm on the Yosemite beta, not sure if it's a new feature or not, I just found it.

[rowdy]

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51698.0
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=21258.0
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55503.0
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=50905.0
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=61475.0
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44377.0
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=53359.0
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=61021.0
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=52228.0

[Grim Fandango]

I think they work rather well for gaming.

I spend a lot of time on mainly two type of games: MOBA (DOTA2) and FPS (CS:GO, BF4). But I have also played MMOs and RTS (just not anywhere near the same number of hours). When it comes to Topre I only have experience gaming on a 45g uniformly weighted 87u. However, I have also gamed on blacks, blues, reds, browns and Matias quiet alps (used them for gaming in that order).

I like 45g Topre for gaming. They are light (like reds) but have a little tactility which prevents accidental keypresses in games where you have a lot of actions per minute and are constantly pressing a wide variety of keys (like an RTS).

I also like them for FPS, but also really like the feeling of a slightly stiffer switch that pushes back a little when you use it. That is because on WASD, you have this automatic tendency to "hover" near this actuation point until you need to actuate. This does not work so well on the lighter switches like the reds and 45g topre. Though it is just something you adapt to.

I find it hard to judge to what extent this is just my personal experience or whether other people will feel the same.

[Lurch]

Like other have stated, 55g can be fatiguing after a while, but I love gaming on my 45g hhkb. I have the Lwin key acting as my Fn key for easy access to the F row.

[Quardah]

Well, i'd say the switches weren't an issue; the HHKB layout was. CTRL at Caps is just plain retarded in CS, and the lack of bottom left key is just obnoxious.

Topre isn't so bad for gaming i guess, but you know, since the one and only ultimate mighty real god of the unfair advantage swag gaming cult, R4Z3R, is not using Topre in their boards, Topre must obviously be sh1t for gaming.

Don't you agree R4Z3R is the only way to go for the 31337-$w@g-n0sk0p3-K1ll4-420#BL4Z31TF4(GeeGee)0T that you are?

I'm just kidding razer is sh1t.

But Topre isn't my favorite when it comes to gaming.

[epzy]

Great. =)

[Puddsy]

For anythin but SC2 and any FPS game they're reasonable at best.

[exitfire401]

I use my HHKB more than my Race for gaming anymore.

[Polymer]

I love Topre..but I think they're just ok for gaming...It really all is personal preference (as you can tell from all the different responses on here). 

Cherry, to me, feels more smashable/spammable...there are a wider variety of options to tweak your style of play too...

Topre to me feels too organic...My HHKB is ok for gaming but my variable RFs...HELL NO...

[noisyturtle]

They are fine for gaming. Really anything that's not heavier than 60cN is fine for gaming, the entire hype behind a board being geared towards gamers specifically really comes down to it's extraneous features and whatever switch type the user prefers.

Personally I like lighter switches for everything; typing, gaming, work. Your reds, your ergo-clears. For gaming only I'd say lubed reds would be the ultimate switch, but I prefer the versatility of ergo/panda clears.

[Novus]

If you're an MX red user, you'll find topre isn't optimal because it bottoms out.
If you're MX brown you'll feel quite at home though.

Strafe shooting is still a bit hard.

[dorkvader]

If you're an MX red user, you'll find topre isn't optimal because it bottoms out.
If you're MX brown you'll feel quite at home though.

Strafe shooting is still a bit hard.

I just don't get this: I don't bottom out my topre. Is this common?

[Grim Fandango]

If you're an MX red user, you'll find topre isn't optimal because it bottoms out.
If you're MX brown you'll feel quite at home though.

Strafe shooting is still a bit hard.

I just don't get this: I don't bottom out my topre. Is this common?

I have no idea how common it is. However I find it pretty much impossible for me not to bottom out on the lighter switches like reds and topre 45g. And I am not even heavy-handed.

One thing to keep in mind is that all switches kind of work alright for gaming. Personal preference is the most important thing here.

I have seen people use all kinds of definitions of "gaming switches" and I think it is all bogus. Some say the linear MX's (reds, black) are for "gaming". Something about their linearity and the tactile bump not getting in the way that does not make sense to me. Others say that blues are for gaming. Probably has to do with the razer keyboards that were only available in blues and promoted as the "ultimate gaming keyboard". Then yet other people maintained that gaming switches should be as light as possible, for fast actuation and to avoid fatigue (reds). One of the reasons people mentioned was being able to do fast double taps on them, and increasing your APM in games like SC2. I do agree that spamming a single key is more easy on some switches than on others, but I wonder for how many people play a genre where this matters, and how many people would actually see their APM increase due to the choice of their switch.

You are pretty much free to choose whatever you like and you can do well with it. Sure, there might be some real world advantages of using one specific switch over another. Maybe the point of actuation of one switch takes 1mm less travel of the key than another. However, the real world benefits and drawbacks are negligible as far as I can tell. I mean, take a look at perhaps one of the most keyboard-dependent highly competitive games, the Starcraft 2 scene. Until recently, a lot of those Korean guys were still on their rubber domes Qsenn DT35 pretty much dominating the rest of the world. I do not think they used that keyboard because they thought it was better than others, but probably because it was cheap, replaceable, always available and often used in places internet cafes. It is only due to sponsorships that some of them changed and they use all kinds of switches, probably dependent on what is available to them.

[exitfire401]

If you're an MX red user, you'll find topre isn't optimal because it bottoms out.
If you're MX brown you'll feel quite at home though.

Strafe shooting is still a bit hard.

I just don't get this: I don't bottom out my topre. Is this common?

I also don't bottom out. Take the dome to the activation point, and let it drop itself.

[hasu]

Ive heard some crazy skilled gamer claimed Topre drops his stroke occasionally. Scan speed is not so fast, it can happen in theory. Anyone can confirm this problem?

[munch]

I had no problems whatsoever with 45g, and I consider myself a pretty hardcore FPS gamer. for RTS/MOBA, no idea. I'm not very good at those. I can imagine if I ever get up to a million APM, I'd prefer a lighter switch. 30g topre perhaps.
but in FPS games, I see no disadvantage. you kinda do press hard in the heat of the moment and whatnot regardless, IME. nice to have a lot of control and no accidental keypresses.

[Fragil1ty]

Didn't like it that much myself, I come from Red switches.

Before I sold my HHKB, I did game extensively on games such as CS:GO/League of Legends etc, and they're okay for a while but after long periods of gaming your fingers do experience finger fatigue and the layout can be an annoyance in certain games, but that's just the way that the keyboard is to be honest.

Great keyboard though.

[saturnotaku]

I appreciate all the feedback. The responses are about what I expected, and I don't mean that in a bad way.

Perhaps I should have been a little more clear. For the longest time, I gamed on a Microsoft Sidewinder X6, so rubber domes aren't a major problem. I also won't be playing games for more than an hour or two, just a few times per week. It will certainly see more use typing than gaming, which is mostly why I wanted to try a Topre board in the first place.

Guess I'll find out once the keyboard finally gets here.

[Fragil1ty]

I appreciate all the feedback. The responses are about what I expected, and I don't mean that in a bad way.

Perhaps I should have been a little more clear. For the longest time, I gamed on a Microsoft Sidewinder X6, so rubber domes aren't a major problem. I also won't be playing games for more than an hour or two, just a few times per week. It will certainly see more use typing than gaming, which is mostly why I wanted to try a Topre board in the first place.

Guess I'll find out once the keyboard finally gets here.

To be honest mate, it's one of those. You can game on it, but it's not preferred, just think of it like this:

Blues/blacks aren't meant for gaming, yet most people do it anyway, it's just a personal preference of the keyboard that you want to use.
I mean, I love gaming on reds and the transition for me was a bit strange but if I could? I would have kept the board and would have got used to it, one of the major gripes I have though is because of the location of the enter key, you get used to it (muscle memory) and then because of that, when you switch to other keyboards e.g. laptop or work keyboards etc, you are pressing delete instead of enter constantly lol.\

But as I said man, it's not that bad, it's all about personal preference, always has been, always will be.

[saturnotaku]

I would have kept the board and would have got used to it, one of the major gripes I have though is because of the location of the enter key, you get used to it (muscle memory) and then because of that, when you switch to other keyboards e.g. laptop or work keyboards etc, you are pressing delete instead of enter constantly lol.

Well, that won't be an issue for me because I'll be using a Realforce 87U rather than a HHKB. While the HHKB is intriguing, I used a Poker II as a daily driver for a month, but the compact layout just wasn't cutting it for my usage, both in typing and gaming.

[Puddsy]

Ive heard some crazy skilled gamer claimed Topre drops his stroke occasionally. Scan speed is not so fast, it can happen in theory. Anyone can confirm this problem?

This is why high APM is no good on Topre

Confirming that this is a thing that happens

[pwnmonkey]

Played Dota 2 for 2 years on my Realforce 55g with no problems. 

[Grim Fandango]

Ive heard some crazy skilled gamer claimed Topre drops his stroke occasionally. Scan speed is not so fast, it can happen in theory. Anyone can confirm this problem?

This is why high APM is no good on Topre

Confirming that this is a thing that happens

Just for the sake of clarity, I want to know what this means. I am not sure what you mean by "scan speed" or "dropped stroke", and I would like to know more about it.

I have never heard of, or experienced these things. Though I have to say that I only play RTS casually, and I am probably not as demanding (in terms of rapid keypresses in quick succession) as more dedicated players are. Still though, even with a fairly high APM this is not an issue for me. When it comes to a game like Counter Strike however, the hours I have put in are in the multiple thousands by now and I do believe I am as demanding as you can be in terms of the reliability of my peripherals (which is what sparked my mouse guide, see sig). But this has never been an issue on any of the keyboards I have used including Topre (and even rubber dome).  Though that may be due to how differently you use the keyboard in an FPS compared to an RTS.

If the Topre switch is unreliable in any way I would like to know. Perhaps a link to where you heard this first would prove helpful. I think that this is something that would be fairly important for potential buyers to know.

[Puddsy]

When you double tap took quickly it drops the 2nd stroke for some reason. I spam weapon switches a lot so I get this issue and have the wrong weapon out.

Also sometimes don't make enough units in SC2.

[Grim Fandango]

When you double tap took quickly it drops the 2nd stroke for some reason. I spam weapon switches a lot so I get this issue and have the wrong weapon out.

Also sometimes don't make enough units in SC2.

Hmmm, thanks for telling us. I will try to replicate the issue in SC2 and CS:GO and see if I run into the same problem. So if I am not mistaken, you are saying the problem exists on double taps and quickly repeated keystrokes.

[snipars]

they're keyboard switches, they don't make any difference in 'gaming'

[epzy]

they're keyboard switches, they don't make any difference in 'gaming'

u wot m8

[Puddsy]

When you double tap took quickly it drops the 2nd stroke for some reason. I spam weapon switches a lot so I get this issue and have the wrong weapon out.

Also sometimes don't make enough units in SC2.

Hmmm, thanks for telling us. I will try to replicate the issue in SC2 and CS:GO and see if I run into the same problem. So if I am not mistaken, you are saying the problem exists on double taps and quickly repeated keystrokes.

i mean, yeah,

but it also seems kinda random sometimes

I'm not really sure why it happens but it does

they're keyboard switches, they don't make any difference in 'gaming'

gr8 b8 m8 i r8 8/8

[noisyturtle]

they're keyboard switches, they don't make any difference in 'gaming'

I actually agree with this to an extent.
I could use use a goddamn model F and still wreck your face in Unreal Tournament, and likewise, I could use the anti-ghostingest n-keying rollovery non-jammiest light-touch non-bottoming out smooth switches ever to be soldered onto a PCB, but I'll still lose a Starcraft game vs an infant with cheese wheels for hands.

[Puddsy]

that's a skill thing not a keyboard thing

but i see what you're saying

[snipars]

I just don't get how anyone could think a different switch type could have an effect on gaming 
The only time i ever switch keyboards while playing games is if my friends are annoyed by the volume of buckling springs or mx blues

[Puddsy]

When you get into the really high skill levels of some games it does make a difference what switch you use

and it's also a comfort thing in some other games

[epzy]

I just don't get how anyone could think a different switch type could have an effect on gaming 
The only time i ever switch keyboards while playing games is if my friends are annoyed by the volume of buckling springs or mx blues

So you think SC2 players would get the same APM using tactile greys as they would with reds for example?

[noisyturtle]

It's only at those top echelons of play that it makes any sort of difference, and even then I bet the difference for pros is fairly minimal. Thinking that buying a new keyboard is somehow going to magically improve your skills is retarded, but it may inspire you to become a better player.

[Grim Fandango]

I have to admit I also tend to think that when it comes to keyboards, most are fine for gaming.

The thing is that you do not want your peripheral to fail you. Meaning that it should reliably do what you want it to do. Keyboards tend to do this (despite some lacking features like key rollover). That is why Korean Starcraft pros played with the cheap rubber-dome keyboards that internet cafes used to use. One may be better than another, but the real world benefits in terms of performance are limited.

Mice are kind of different in this regard. Unlike keyboards, generic mice tend to fail the user in terms of reliably doing what the user wants it to do. This happens in a variety of ways. Many sensors will simply stop tracking when used by a demanding low sensitivity user who does fast sweeps for things like flick shots or even just making fast turns (a large number of sensors have a max tracking speed of lower than 1.5 m/s, which many people will hit in games). For someone like myself, some mice simply stop working (they "skip"). Other problems where the cursor simply does not follow mouse movement the way the user intends (like prediction, or acceleration) are also very real issues.

I am not saying that I think that mice are more important for gaming than keyboards. I think that depends on the genre. But I do believe that it is easier to get by on just any generic keyboard without giving up too much in terms of performance, than it is to get by with just any generic mouse.

I am biased though. Since I am someone who mainly plays genres where accurately manipulating the cursor is more important than keyboard input. If I had played thousand of hours of Starcraft instead of Counter Strike, maybe my opinion would be different.

[exitfire401]

I have to admit I also tend to think that when it comes to keyboards, most are fine for gaming.

The thing is that you do not want your peripheral to fail you. Meaning that it should reliably do what you want it to do. Keyboards tend to do this (despite some lacking features like key rollover). That is why Korean Starcraft pros played with the cheap rubber-dome keyboards that internet cafes used to use. One may be better than another, but the real world benefits in terms of performance are limited.

Mice are kind of different in this regard. Unlike keyboards, generic mice tend to fail the user in terms of reliably doing what the user wants it to do. This happens in a variety of ways. Many sensors will simply stop tracking when used by a demanding low sensitivity user who does fast sweeps for things like flick shots or even just making fast turns (a large number of sensors have a max tracking speed of lower than 1.5 m/s, which many people will hit in games). Other problems where the cursor simply does not follow mouse movement the way the user intends (like prediction, or acceleration) are also very real issues.

I am not saying that I think that mice are more important for gaming than keyboards. I think that depends on the genre. But I do believe that it is easier to get by on just any generic keyboard without giving up too much in terms of performance, than it is to get by with just any generic mouse.

I am biased though. Since I am someone who mainly plays genres where accurately manipulating the cursor is more important than keyboard input. If I would haven been playing thousand of hours of Starcraft instead of Counter Strike, maybe my opinion would be different.

Agreed. As a player of LoL and Counterstrike, I count more on my mouse than my keyboard.

[Puddsy]

I just don't get how anyone could think a different switch type could have an effect on gaming 
The only time i ever switch keyboards while playing games is if my friends are annoyed by the volume of buckling springs or mx blues

So you think SC2 players would get the same APM using tactile greys as they would with reds for example?

not at all, which was my point earlier

It's only at those top echelons of play that it makes any sort of difference, and even then I bet the difference for pros is fairly minimal. Thinking that buying a new keyboard is somehow going to magically improve your skills is retarded, but it may inspire you to become a better player.

Starcraft pros often drop a notch or 2 when they get new keyboards, even if it's exactly the same as the last one.

I have to admit I also tend to think that when it comes to keyboards, most are fine for gaming.

The thing is that you do not want your peripheral to fail you. Meaning that it should reliably do what you want it to do. Keyboards tend to do this (despite some lacking features like key rollover). That is why Korean Starcraft pros played with the cheap rubber-dome keyboards that internet cafes used to use. One may be better than another, but the real world benefits in terms of performance are limited.

it was because they were what was in the LAN cafes, which was where all the pros practiced.

but that was also a part of it, and there was a reason that they were used in all the LAN cafes.

I am not saying that I think that mice are more important for gaming than keyboards. I think that depends on the genre. But I do believe that it is easier to get by on just any generic keyboard without giving up too much in terms of performance, than it is to get by with just any generic mouse.

I am biased though. Since I am someone who mainly plays genres where accurately manipulating the cursor is more important than keyboard input. If I had played thousand of hours of Starcraft instead of Counter Strike, maybe my opinion would be different.

This too

If I played games where the keyboard mattered more, I'd probably be able to say more.

TF2 isn't really a good benchmark game.

[saturnotaku]

Having received my modified Realforce 87U (essentially a silent uniform 45g), I have to say it's perfectly fine for the gaming I intend to do. Any perceived disadvantage over a Cherry MX board is more than mitigated by the fact that the board is an absolute joy to type on. I have a white variable weight 87U silent en route that will replace the Filco MJ2 I have at work. All I need to do is swap the caps between the boards, and life will be grand.

I'm just mad that it took me this long to try out Topre. There's no way I'll be going back to MX switches now.

[PadawanGeek]

To me, Topre is perfectly fine for gaming, even the 55G on my 103UB, though admittedly, longest gaming session I'd had with it was about three hours. On my HHKB 2, I found the location of the left 'Ctrl' to be something I couldn't quite adjust to (I'm, apparently, an old dog I'm afraid), but on my Topre and Leopold keyboards, this was not a problem. I have no problem using Topre keyboards even with fast paced FPS like UT3.

[Novus]

Well if we're going with some of these stupid replies you might as well just gtfo and use your ****ing 10 dollar surplus office keyboard for typing. It doesn't make a difference.

[saturnotaku]

Well if we're going with some of these stupid replies

Preserved for irony. Now get out of my thread.

[exitfire401]

Well if we're going with some of these stupid replies you might as well just gtfo and use your ****ing 10 dollar surplus office keyboard for typing. It doesn't make a difference.

[Quardah]

Well if we're going with some of these stupid replies you might as well just gtfo and use your ****ing 10 dollar surplus office keyboard for typing. It doesn't make a difference.

Translated into all caps madness :

OH MY GOD GUYS I AM ANGRY AND I THINK DIFFERENT I MUST BE REBELLOUS AND SHOW THESE 10 REGULAR USERS THAT THEY ARE DUMB AND FKIN SOULJA BOY TELL'EM THAT I HAVE SUPERIOR THINKING INTO DENYING THERE WHOLE THREAD BECAUSE I'M TOTALLY NOT A DOUCHEBAG LIKE THEM.

FCCK I HATE GEEKS SO HARD WE MUST GET RID OF THEM BUT FIRST LET'S JUST TELL'EM TO GTFO OF A WEB FORUM YEAH THAT'LL TELL'EM THAT'LL TELL'EM BAD.

DAMN I'M A MASTERMIND OF EVIL HAHAHAHA JAJAJAJAJAJA KEKEKEKEKEKE LULOLULOLULOL HUEHUEHUEHUEHUEHUEHUE

Signed with attention,
the1onewolf